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Please Make Fewer Heartbreak Romances for Women - Possible Spoilers


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#476
Sister Squish

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Great writing allows a reader to become attached to the character (characters) written, where one will feel all of the character’s heartaches; one will be in that character’s world. So, the result is that the reader (or player in this case) becomes so involved that he/she desires a certain outcome.  We shouldn’t want the writer to bend to our will; we should appreciate the characters as he/she is written. If Bioware decides to pursue a less punch-line type of romances, I would hope it is from the writers’ desire to do so. If Bioware is writing for the time, medieval, we must accept how the character is portrayed or written. We are having this debate here because of the writing. It is excellent in Dragon Age: Inquisition.

 

I do not think anyone here is doubting the skill of the writers in being able to draw us in and encourage us to care for the outcome of a character. We wouldn't be having this conversation if that was not true. But I think this matter is where the distinction between writer and reader, and writer and player can be seen most prominently. The experience of the writer may be for each character and game to be an exciting (or grueling) new project. For Dragon Age players, however, the experience may be (perhaps not even consciously) a commitment in itself. 

 

I cannot speak for every type of player; a lot of this is subjective, and I can only speak for myself and those who find themselves in  similar situations. In the case of this thread topic, each LI sub-plot (if having been unlucky in blind picks) has been engaged, explored and either met it's tragic end or is still, after 5/6 years, unresolved. Each time this happens, since Origins, a weight is formed and carried somewhere inside of us. It isn't just unresolved - it is being added to every game. The weight gets bigger and bigger with no closure. It may lessen over time, or it may not.  

This may be true for any type of story, really. But what separates novels from games is that direct link of interaction and choice; putting a piece of yourself into it. Technology and graphic capabilities are only going to increase in quality, making it easier and easier for us to respond to the characters we connect (and don't connect) with; and we need to be increasingly aware of how player's sensibilities and mental/emotional states are held captive to these things... 

Conversely, it is always arguable whether writer's intentions are ever valuable at all. Would consulting the oracle when looking for meaning invalidate any subjective response we may have? Or, once a piece is created, should people be free to interpret it in any way they wish? If there are a significant group of players who interpret this ongoing barrage of painful stories as no longer enjoyable, is this not to be at least considered? 

(Hopefully that made sense! >.< ) 


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#477
Lilacs

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I do not think anyone here is doubting the skill of the writers in being able to draw us in and encourage us to care for the outcome of a character. We wouldn't be having this conversation if that was not true. But I think this matter is where the distinction between writer and reader, and writer and player can be seen most prominently. The experience of the writer may be for each character and game to be a exciting (or grueling) new project. For Dragon Age players, however, the experience may be (perhaps not even consciously) a commitment in itself. 

 

I cannot speak for every type of player; a lot of this is subjective, and I can only speak for myself and those who find themselves in  similar situations. In the case of this thread topic, each LI sub-plot (if having been unlucky in blind picks) has been engaged, explored and either met it's tragic end or is still, after 5/6 years, unresolved. Each time this happens, since Origins, a weight is formed and carried somewhere inside of us. It isn't just unresolved - it is being added to every game. The weight gets bigger and bigger with no closure. It may lessen over time, or it may not.  

This may be true for any type of story, really. But what separates novels from games is that direct link of interaction and choice; putting a piece of yourself into it. Technology and graphic capabilities are only going to increase in quality, making it easier and easier for us to respond to the characters we connect (and don't connect) with; and we need to be increasingly aware of how player's sensibilities and mental/emotional states are held captive to these things... 

Conversely, it is always arguable whether writer's intentions are ever valid at all. Would consulting the oracle when looking for meaning invalidate any subjective response we may have? Or, once a piece is created, should people be free to interpret it in any way they wish? If there are a significant group of players who interpret this ongoing barrage of painful stories as no longer enjoyable, is this not to be at least considered? 

(Hopefully that made sense! >.< ) 

 

Do quote me  in entirety or show that you are taking a portion of what I wrote. I read your post and I am trying to understand your point here. If I understood you correctly, some of the things you said here I expressed them as well.  I am able to enjoy myself more because I am interacting with a breathable character who can react to me.  Yes, video games (and media in this case) do allow characters to come to life and thus allow us to connect with them in a more intimate, enjoyable fashion, and that's even more  gratifying than from a novel's perspective.

 

Edit:  Please do read my previous post as well. 


Modifié par Lilacs, 29 décembre 2014 - 02:40 .


#478
Sister Squish

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Do quote me  in entirety or show that you are taking a portion of what I wrote. I read your post and I am trying to understand your point here. If I understood you correctly, some of the things you said here I expresed them as well.  I am able to enjoy myself more because I am interacting with a breathable character who can react to me.  Yes, video games (and media in this case) do allow characters to come to life and thus allow us to connect with them in a more intimate, enjoyable fashion, and that's even more  gratifying than from a novel's perspective.

 

Edit:  Please do read my previous post as well. 

 

I read them, and declined to quote in entirety to save space. I intended only to highlight that which served an assertion: the distinction between a reader and a player. I also wished to suggest that the responsibilities of a writer may not end at their "creations". 

 

Furthermore, an absolute "realism" of a Medieval setting is arguably not achievable. We can strive to be as accurate as possible, in order to paint a picture, but whatever is written will always be a product of contemporary cultural context. Writing within that setting still requires us to be culturally sensitive within that context. 

 

Other than that,  I agree with your observations on game mechanics and the characters - all enjoyable, in their own ways! :)


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#479
Lilacs

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I read them, and declined to quote in entirety to save space. I intended only to highlight that which served an assertion: the distinction between a reader and a player. I also wished to suggest that the responsibilities of a writer may not end at their "creations". 

 

Furthermore, an absolute "realism" of a Medieval setting is arguably not achievable. We can strive to be as accurate as possible, in order to paint a picture, but whatever is written will always be a product of contemporary cultural context. Writing within that setting still requires us to be culturally sensitive within that context. 

 

Other than that,  I agree with your observations on game mechanics and the characters - all enjoyable, in their own ways! :)

 

Thanks for the response. =) The stories in the Dragon Age universe are not written in actual medievalism context so to speak. I, for one, am thankful for this. The writers are taking our contemporary sensibilities into consideration, and I appreciate them for that.   And a point you wrote here:  "...writing within that setting still requires us to be culturally sensitive..."  I can relate to that and I agree; being a female, I agree; medieval time was not entirely kind to women.  I think the writers for Dragon Age are being sensitive and more contemporary than strictly medieval.

 

 Again, thanks for being cordial and for responding to me. =)


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#480
Sister Squish

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Yeah I may have knee-jerked with that one. "What? No! 'Because realism' is not a good reason to include awful relationships, or gender inequalities, or anything!" 

 

This is an interesting topic to follow regardless.  :lol:



#481
Hanako Ikezawa

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This may be true for any type of story, really. But what separates novels from games is that direct link of interaction and choice; putting a piece of yourself into it. Technology and graphic capabilities are only going to increase in quality, making it easier and easier for us to respond to the characters we connect (and don't connect) with; and we need to be increasingly aware of how player's sensibilities and mental/emotional states are held captive to these things... 

I disagree with your assertion that someone can't put a piece of themselves into a novel. You absolutely can put yourself in the story a book tells. While true that in a book you are merely an observer, unless the book is in first person in which case the reader is the protagonist, while the game you are able to make choices, in the end it is the same thing. Both novels and games restrict you to reading or playing the story the writer wants to tell. With books it is being a silent observer, and with games it is being stuck within the confines of the choices they allow you to make.


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#482
LaughingBanana

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The Jacob thing from Mass Effect was hilarious. Truly, the way he's written and the slap, they're all so funny in a sad kind of way, hahaha.

 

I never actually gave too much thought about this, but huh... it is true that many female romances seem so... difficult, huh, in Bioware games? Hahaha. Thane being dead, Jacob did that funny thing, and now Blackwall... Solas.... hahaha. Even Cullen has his dark side, unlike say, Josephine (although she is romance-able by females too but you folks understand what I am saying.)

 

Huh. A totally baggage-free, happy, no-conflict relationship for straight female characters... I wonder why Bioware love their tragedies with female characters, hahaha.



#483
Uirebhiril

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The Jacob thing from Mass Effect was hilarious. Truly, the way he's written and the slap, they're all so funny in a sad kind of way, hahaha.

 

I wonder how high the roof would have flown if by ME3 Tali had gotten knocked up by Kal'Reegar.... bet the guys that romanced her would have found that absolutely hilarious! Who cares what her sweat smells like, they could get into long debates about what Quarian breast milk tastes like instead!

 

I promise to have less egg nog before responding to this thread again.


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#484
Tashash

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I wish I could just 'Like' a topic or something to show my support, kinda feel silly just jumping in to go 'Hey, this is something I like/dislike/would like changed but I don't actually have anything to add to the discussion'.



#485
Felya87

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The big difference between a book/movie and a game is simply this: the game require a lot of time and energy to be completed. A book or a movie a few hours. (depending on how long is the book, but is usually less time than a game like DAI, an reading is more passive than playing a videogame)

 

in a game where choice/consequence should be the point, a tragedy or a break up should be a consequence of a choice made. Like with Sera. You can choose if believe in Mythal, or not. Make Cassandra Divine or not. Those are choice/consequence.

 

If I play for something like eighty hours, just to have a break up, or having my LI die no matter what I do, than there isn't anymore the choice/consequence thing. The game feel broken, and, most important, people may feel like they wasted a lot of time and energy. (as I said: if many players look for spoilers about the romance endings to not "pick the bad romance" before the game is out, is not a good sign) Time much more consistant that what is necessary for read a book or a movie. With plus the feeling of being cheated because the game was about choice and consequence, but there are no choice who give a different outcome (Anders, Solas, Blackwall, Jacob, easily King Alistair).

 

I don't think every romance need rainbows and unicorns, and live together till they last days, but having differents outcomes on a relationship based on choices would be much preferable.

For example a character who leaves no matter what, but in a case just disappear, in another die, and in another leave after a last kiss, or a letter and the promise to see each others again, make a great difference.

 

Sometimes is not just the "what", but the "how" something happen.

 

And for the angst...give me all the angst in the world. But thought the journey. Give the chance for a more sweet in the end, so that all the angst pay back.


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#486
Chaos17

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tumblr_nh944brdEj1r7rgoho3_500.jpg

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http://fenrism.tumbl...m-so-so-sorry-i

 

Yup, I agree with OP.


Modifié par Chaos17, 29 décembre 2014 - 05:00 .

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#487
Shari'El

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:crying:  :crying:



#488
FurryFury

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When it comes to romances, I feel like there's a fine line between writing actual stories and frameworks for wish fulfillment. I don't want to insult people who consider them wish fulfillment, I can understand this desire, and I certainly think that it should be acknowledged when writing romance (I mean, the player character is almost always some sort of self-insert, so a certain degree of wish fulfillment is inescapable). However, for me, I only get hooked on a story - any story - when there are complications, and the more, the better. Fluffy happy romances never work for me, in any kind of medium. So I definitely don't want Bioware to stop writing angsty tragic stuff. It doesn't always have to end badly - Fenris romance had a pretty high degree of angst for me, and it still had a happy ending - but it's those endings that end in heartbreak that stick with you the longest (although, with Anders, even a happy ending was heartbreaking, and personally, I dug the hell out of it).

 

However, I do see the discrepancy between male and female LIs when it comes to tragedy in romance, so the OP has a point. Still, being a straight female who both prefers playing straight female characters and is fan of angst and drama in general, I can't help but feel like "Don't care! Moar angsty guys!". 

Except Blackwall. For some reason, even being a secret murderer didn't make him any more interesting. I just fall asleep talking to him.


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#489
KaiserShep

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I wonder how high the roof would have flown if by ME3 Tali had gotten knocked up by Kal'Reegar.... bet the guys that romanced her would have found that absolutely hilarious! Who cares what her sweat smells like, they could get into long debates about what Quarian breast milk tastes like instead!

 

I promise to have less egg nog before responding to this thread again.

For good measure, I'd say apply it to everyone. Liara getting with Feron regardless of what you do after LotSB, Miranda with some dude she met online, etc.. Every Shepard is forever alone, because 6 months in the Alliance's clink pretty much took the wind out of the love boat's sails.


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#490
Elsariel

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When it comes to romances, I feel like there's a fine line between writing actual stories and frameworks for wish fulfillment. I don't want to insult people who consider them wish fulfillment, I can understand this desire, and I certainly think that it should be acknowledged when writing romance (I mean, the player character is almost always some sort of self-insert, so a certain degree of wish fulfillment is inescapable). However, for me, I only get hooked on a story - any story - when there are complications, and the more, the better. Fluffy happy romances never work for me, in any kind of medium. So I definitely don't want Bioware to stop writing angsty tragic stuff. It doesn't always have to end badly - Fenris romance had a pretty high degree of angst for me, and it still had a happy ending - but it's those endings that end in heartbreak that stick with you the longest (although, with Anders, even a happy ending was heartbreaking, and personally, I dug the hell out of it).

However, I do see the discrepancy between male and female LIs when it comes to tragedy in romance, so the OP has a point. Still, being a straight female who both prefers playing straight female characters and is fan of angst and drama in general, I can't help but feel like "Don't care! Moar angsty guys!".
Except Blackwall. For some reason, even being a secret murderer didn't make him any more interesting. I just fall asleep talking to him.



I wholeheartedly agree. Love the angst. I don't even mind tragedy, but I would like a way to subvert outright character death if possible. To me, the whole Dark Ritual to prevent my or Alistair's death was acceptable. Yeah, it was heart wrenching to ask him to sleep with another woman but, since it's a video game, the drama of it all was delicious. Same with deciding to be his mistress if you make him king. I found it to be an enticing sort of ending. I always imagined the sort of arrangement that Vivienne has so it didn't feel like a dirty secret. I love that kind of stuff.

#491
Ascendra

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I wonder how high the roof would have flown if by ME3 Tali had gotten knocked up by Kal'Reegar.... bet the guys that romanced her would have found that absolutely hilarious! Who cares what her sweat smells like, they could get into long debates about what Quarian breast milk tastes like instead!

 

I promise to have less egg nog before responding to this thread again.

 

Or Cassandra had a dead husband/brother/son and kept comparing male Quizzy to him all time. Just sayin...  :ph34r:


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#492
FurryFury

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To me, the whole Dark Ritual to prevent my or Alistair's death was acceptable. Yeah, it was heart wrenching to ask him to sleep with another woman but, since it's a video game, the drama of it all was delicious. Same with deciding to be his mistress if you make him king. I found it to be an enticing sort of ending.

 

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Alistair romance (knightly types do nothing for me), I roleplayed it as my character wanting to seduce the next king to gain more power (she was a Vivienne-esque social climber), but the complications in that romance were actually interesting. They made the story richer and more impactful. Yes, it sucks to persuade him to have a kid with another woman, or that you have to be a mistress and to share your man with the queen (and I'm sure that he has to sleep with Anora, if you marry them. Not often, and not because he wants to, but marriage has to be consummated in the first place, plus trying for an heir). This is the world you live in. You still get to be with the guy you love, but it's not free, and this is the price). Deal with it. A sugarly sweet ending without any problems gives me diabetes.


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#493
phaonica

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When it comes to romances, I feel like there's a fine line between writing actual stories and frameworks for wish fulfillment. I don't want to insult people who consider them wish fulfillment, I can understand this desire, and I certainly think that it should be acknowledged when writing romance (I mean, the player character is almost always some sort of self-insert, so a certain degree of wish fulfillment is inescapable). However, for me, I only get hooked on a story - any story - when there are complications, and the more, the better. Fluffy happy romances never work for me, in any kind of medium. So I definitely don't want Bioware to stop writing angsty tragic stuff. It doesn't always have to end badly - Fenris romance had a pretty high degree of angst for me, and it still had a happy ending - but it's those endings that end in heartbreak that stick with you the longest (although, with Anders, even a happy ending was heartbreaking, and personally, I dug the hell out of it).

 

However, I do see the discrepancy between male and female LIs when it comes to tragedy in romance, so the OP has a point. Still, being a straight female who both prefers playing straight female characters and is fan of angst and drama in general, I can't help but feel like "Don't care! Moar angsty guys!". 

Except Blackwall. For some reason, even being a secret murderer didn't make him any more interesting. I just fall asleep talking to him.

 

I agree. I do like a high degree of angst in a romance. Alistair, Zevran, Morrigan, Anders, Fenris, Dorian, Solas. These are *great* romance stories, imo. I love the angsty romances. And having things like the LIs partially out of your control makes them feel more like real people.

 

But, as I understand, the thread request isn't about not having less angst, just having fewer where you can't triumph over it. I haven't played Mass Effect, so maybe there is an imbalance. I'm not sure there needs to be a balance, but that's just me. So long as they don't shift the tragedy entirely over to the male players, I'm good.


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#494
Felya87

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If the angst the OP was talking about was all like Fenris or Zevran, I would be always happy.

 

They have angst on the road, and choices that pay off (Zev can be killed the first time you meet him, and can betray you if you haven't enought approval with him. Great chance of development of the character.).

Fenris is out of control, and yet he will came back to the player, if he/she stay faithful to him and doesn't start another romance in the meantime. Great pay off for the WTF!? moment.

 

Those are angsty filled romances that pay off in the end. I'd love if all the romance for the straight female characters where like this. Instead we have many, many times to make very unethical or horrible choices (when we can) or being slapped in the face with a "nope, you can't have a chance!".


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#495
FurryFury

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 I'd love if all the romance for the straight female characters where like this. 

 

But the point is there should be *different* romances. Just as there should be different characters. I mean, I don't enjoy romances like Cullen or Josie, but I definitely feel like they should still be present, because a game is made for a multiple demographics appeal. Different people love different things, and yes, this includes unavoidable tragedy (by the way, making the tragedy avoidable cheapens it in a major way). Let there be options for all kinds of players. I mean, I liked Fenris, but I'd take Solas over him any day - this story was much more powerful.


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#496
Ryzaki

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No one's saying all the romances should be fluffy.

 

We'd just like less drama laden ones considering straight females get the lion's share in comparison to everyone else.


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#497
FurryFury

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We'd just like less drama laden ones considering straight females get the lion's share in comparison to everyone else

 

I think there are enough less drama laden ones for girls - at least in Dragon Ages series. I do think that men should get some tragic ones too, though.


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#498
Ascendra

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But the point is there should be *different* romances. Just as there should be different characters. I mean, I don't enjoy romances like Cullen or Josie, but I definitely feel like they should still be present, because a game is made for a multiple demographics appeal. Different people love different things, and yes, this includes unavoidable tragedy (by the way, making the tragedy avoidable cheapens it in a major way). Let there be options for all kinds of players. I mean, I liked Fenris, but I'd take Solas over him any day - this story was much more powerful.

 

I do agree there should be a variety as well for all people to enjoy. I think Inquisition struck the best balance in terms of angst/non-angst, but only because the straight female players got very lucky this time. If we only had Bull and Blackwall I would be concerned as both of them may simply not be everyone's thing (love Bull and like Blackwall). If in the next installment we will get two males to romance I would prefer them to be 1 angst and 1 non-angst.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. Love the angst. I don't even mind tragedy, but I would like a way to subvert outright character death if possible. To me, the whole Dark Ritual to prevent my or Alistair's death was acceptable. Yeah, it was heart wrenching to ask him to sleep with another woman but, since it's a video game, the drama of it all was delicious. Same with deciding to be his mistress if you make him king. I found it to be an enticing sort of ending. I always imagined the sort of arrangement that Vivienne has so it didn't feel like a dirty secret. I love that kind of stuff.

 

The DR kicked me pretty hard when I first played it, because I was overly emotionally attached to the characters (not so much now, getting older :D), but I was able to RP around the feeling by creating a feeling of hopelessness for my female Wardens. Basically they thought it wasn't the worst thing that could happen - their death or the death of their loved ones was much worse. I do like it very much now simply because it adds different story possibilities as well as obligatory bit of drama to spice up the story.



#499
Felya87

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But the point is there should be *different* romances. Just as there should be different characters. I mean, I don't enjoy romances like Cullen or Josie, but I definitely feel like they should still be present, because a game is made for a multiple demographics appeal. Different people love different things, and yes, this includes unavoidable tragedy (by the way, making the tragedy avoidable cheapens it in a major way). Let there be options for all kinds of players. I mean, I liked Fenris, but I'd take Solas over him any day - this story was much more powerful.

 

I was talking about the "genre". Angst filled romance but with chance for a satisfyng ending.  -_- Of course there is the need for different thype of romance. And if once in a while there is an unavoidable angst, so be it. (but than I prefer something like Alistair and Anders, where you have to take very important decisions to have them at least alive.) The problem is that it is a trend, now.

 

I think a forced tragedy is what kill the romance and all the replayability of the game.

The first time can be a great turn of the events, but than the romance and the character loose interest in the eyes of the players.

What is good to Alistair's romance? the fact that you can have multiple, different outcomes, after all.

 

I know many people that, just like me, played one time thane's romance, and than never again, since his end was inavoidable. (eh, I know many people who didn't even replayed ME3 a second time because for them there was too little difference for Shepard's end to justify play a second time.)

 

There are some events that should not be inavoidable, but at least have to give the chance to react in very differents ways.


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#500
Abelas Forever!

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To me tragic romance is a romance where my LI dies, leaves me, cheats on me no matter what I do like Thane and Jacob in ME3. I have no problem with Fenris romance because you can be together in the end. I can live with the DR because that is the only way for you to be together with Alistair. It was quite tough thing to accept but I accepted it. So I understand why people hate it.  I love Solas romance but if there isn't any way to get him back in a DLC then I'm going to be very frustrated because there were doomed romances in ME3 and it was just a while ago.

 

I was thinking what romances were fluffy and maybe Cullen is the only one? I haven't played that yet but it seems to be that kind of romance. Garrus romance is a good one because he supports you but I wouldn't call it fluffy.


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