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[RShara]

Although let's explore the options you get with Alistair....

 

You can

Let him die--Tragic

Let your Warden die--Tragic

Let him impregnate Morrigan--semi-tragic

     He can become King. You can become Queen if you are a human noble.--Still semi-tragic

     He can become king.  He can marry Anora.  You can become his mistress.--More than semi-tragic

     He can become king.  He does not marry Anora?  You can become his mistress.  (I'm not sure if this is an option actually).  More than semi-tragic.

     He can become king.  He can leave you completely.--Tragic

     He can stay a grey warden.

         He or Hawke die at Adamant.--Tragic

Let Loghain live and let Loghain impregnate Morrigan

     Alistair leaves you.--Tragic

 

Did I miss or get anything wrong?

 

So

[DuVessa]

Please, if there must be multiple heartbreaking romances in a given BioWare game, spread the heartbreak around.  Do not give these options only to female characters.

 

I appreciate tragedy and heartbreak... sometimes.  However, this has become a routine feature for BioWare games: if you happen to be playing a straight woman character, you have a very high chance of your character's love interest (if you pursue one) cheating, breaking up with you, leaving, or being deeply in love with someone else (usually a dead wife).

 

Most of us don't like heartbreak THAT much.  I don't care if the player is a man or a woman or a moose.  Heartbreak has its place, but if it were fun we wouldn't call it heartbreak.

 

Yes, it happens in the real world all the time.  Yes, it's okay (and even good) on occasion, even every other game, or every three games, and can make for an awesome story.  But please, spread that heartbreak around, and stop piling it all on the romance options for lady characters, and having it happen (often on more than one character) in every. single. game.

 

No, I'm not saying give the heartbreak to the LGBT community.  Goodness knows, they get enough of the heartbreak in pretty much every other medium.  But how about breaking the straight guys' hearts instead now and then, if you really want tragedy?  Men and women are equally capable of handling tragedy, so you would think that tragedy would be equally distributed.  It isn't.

 

Devoted fans (most of them women) have brought this up and brought this up, repeatedly, in the fan threads of our favorite characters who dumped us, cheated on us, died, etc.  It appears no one is listening, or that no one is taking us seriously.  So I feel that a thread should garner some attention to the problem, and hopefully reduce the number of heartbroken lady protagonists (and their players) out there.

 

Not all of us want Cullen or Kaidan types, and Cullen/Kaidan types are not the only kind of love interest that can both be interesting and end well.

 

Sometimes heartbreak and drama are awesome.  But, sometimes, plain old fluff is nice where the romances are concerned.  And sometimes, interesting plots and seeming inevitable failure is good, if it turns right around and ends well anyway.  Thedas in particular is a dark world, and I get that.  But can we not have a ray of hope at least in the form of a happy romance, so that our characters at least need not wander the ruined world alone after the story ends?

 

For those of you who don't understand what I am talking about, some instances of this in various BioWare games:

 

• Jacob, ME2 - Cheats in ME3 (inevitable)
• Thane, ME2 - Dies in ME3 (inevitable)
• Alistair, DA:O - Can Die, WILL Dump Non-Human or Mage if Made King, Can Cheat (Leliana, Morrigan).  Being his mistress is presented as a positive solution, though many people would find that unacceptable for a variety of reasons.  Of all of them, his involves the most choice, which makes it seem the least horrible--until you realize, the best option for Ferelden to rule is with him as king (if you are female) and either the Warden (if human noble) or Anora at his side.  Also if you don't do the Dark Ritual and take him with you to the final battle, his death is inevitable and cannot be interrupted by a female Warden who romanced him--also highly problematic.
• Morrigan, DA:O - Male only.  She leaves at the end.  This is fixed, though, via a DLC where the Warden can go rejoin her.
• Anders, DA2 - Both Genders.  Betrays Hawke - this is inevitable since it's part of the main plot. (Note, he's loyal if you let him live... and despite doing something ABSOLUTELY horrible, he gets a happy-ish ending?)
• Blackwall, DA:I - He lies about who he is, sleeps with the Inquisitor before the reveal (which is Not Okay), and if romanced, disappears from Skyhold post-game.  He is still available in-party, but he abandons his lover.
• Solas, DA:I - Breaks up with the Inquisitor immediately after giving the romance achievement and potentially stripping her of a vital part of her identity.  Seems to promise an explanation in some dialogue, but then vanishes without a trace.  Yes, it's for Major Plot Reasons, but there is basically no real closure.  Heartbreak, all around.

And I get that in DA2, any romance could potentially turn against you, based on your choices.  I list Anders only because it's inevitable.  Alistair hurting the PC is not inevitable, but it's ridiculously likely to happen given how many options there are to have everything go poorly for the Warden in that relationship--and I include him because of that and because without the Dark Ritual, you can't take him with you without him sacrificing himself without your say-so.  And then you get an achievement saying you told him to, even when you didn't.  Salt in the wound.

 

You'll notice there are only two characters men can romance that I've thought of on that list.  I'm sure I'm missing others for ladies, and maybe there's another tragic romance or two for guys that I'm missing.  Of the ones I can think of, though, only one is romanceable to straight men.  It's a trend geared toward female characters, and I repeat, not everyone likes that or wants it.

 

I'm not yelling "SEXISM" about it.  I am not sure why things skew this way.  Maybe the people who enjoy playing female characters at the BioWare offices all adore a good tragedy.  But I'm pretty sure, from the way conversations have gone on this point, that the majority of the fans, in fact, do not enjoy tragedy, or at least not the amount of tragedy that we are actually given for the female protagonists.

 

So please, please cut back on the number of heartbreak characters we get.  I'm not asking for them to all be taken away.  Sometimes, I WANT a good tragedy story; tragedy can be beautiful.  But I don't want half of my characters' options (or more) to lead to inevitable heartbreak.  There doesn't need to be one in every game--or if there is, sometimes, the male characters should get the heartbreak option.

 

If you agree or are in support of this request, please post.  I want BioWare to pay some attention to this and spread the heartbreak around!  (I'd say they should reduce it overall, if they can get over their fan tears addiction, but spreading it around works nicely--they get their fan tears, and female protagonists everywhere can have a reprieve.)

Thank you for saying this....it would be nice to have options either positive or negative (if you need the emo thing). Bioware has great story lines and plots, but sometimes I want to play for fun and enjoyment....not to be depressed! I don't mind having to work for it though, I don't need a safe or easy romance, maybe just ending up together?! Well said though!  (I was devastated that Solas left my Inquisitor) lol

[Thiefy]

And many of us have argued that the Dark Ritual is not tragic.  My female Warden talked him into doing the Dark Ritual, which he did because SHE asked him to, and then he became king and they were married.  I consider that to be a happily ever after.   Much happier than my male Warden was when Morrigan walked out on him for two years and forced him to hunt her down.    But this issue has been rehashed and rehashed in this discussion.  

Then we are obviously in a disagreement over what is tragic. Suffice it to say that a lot of people who romanced Alistiar disagree.

 

As I said before, coercing your boyfriend into sleeping with the one person he hates most in the world so that, to your knowledge, she can conceive a demon baby, in order for both of you to live, is not a happy/good/non-tragic ending.

 

Acceptable and compromises is not necessarily the same as "happy". 

 

Personally I found the sacrifice ending to be more fulfilling than the ritual one.

[RShara]

My first playthrough I romanced Alistair.  Then I found out about the DR.  I stopped playing and didn't finish Origins until just before DA2 came out because of it.

[Ryzaki]

 

Personally I found the sacrifice ending to be more fulfilling than the ritual one.

 

Yes it was tragic in the "that broke my heart. But it was worth it." fashion and not the "Ugh." fashion the DR left me in.

[whitless256]

Yes you have options to choose should you kill Leliana or not or stab Morrigan or not. But you can't choose should you do the DR or not if you want to continue the romance. You cannot choose whether Jacob cheats on you or not and you can't choose should Thane die or not.

 

I think the choices in Adamant where chosen by the devs because they wanted them to be hard. Alistair was your companion in DAO and Hawke was your PC in DA2. I'm not trying to say that these choices were chosen because they wanted to give more tragedy towards female PCs. I'm just pointing out that if you are romancing a female LI then you don't have to worry about your romance ending with a tragedy. You can choose.

 

You can make different decisions in keep easily. That's true. But now I'm forced to use it to create some random Hawke because I want my warden and warden Alistair to have a future. I can't have a playthrough where both my female Hawke and warden Alistair are alive.

 

If you defile the urn, Leliana attacks YOU.  You cannot prevent her from attacking you.  So you pretty much have to kill her in that situation.  

 

Then we are obviously in a disagreement over what is tragic. Suffice it to say that a lot of people who romanced Alistiar disagree.

 

As I said before, coercing your boyfriend into sleeping with the one person he hates most in the world so that, to your knowledge, she can conceive a demon baby, in order for both of you to live, is not a happy/good/non-tragic ending.

 

Acceptable and compromises is not necessarily the same as "happy". 

 

Personally I found the sacrifice ending to be more fulfilling than the ritual one.

 

So doing the Dark Ritual means that you and Alistair will never, ever be happy together?  A moment of pain prevents any kind of future happiness?  

 

Ten years down the road, Warden Alistair seems pretty much like himself.  Not traumatized or ruined.  And he even makes a humorous comment about Morrigan just before the end of the Adamant scene.  He SMILES in amusement during said comment.  Obviously he's not permanently scarred and traumatized to the point where it's impossible for him to live a happy life because he once slept with Morrigan.  

 

If one difficult moment ruins you for life, then everyone will be ruined!   If Fenris can get over the stuff he had to go through and have a happily ever after with Hawke, Alistair can do the same.  One bad moment does not prevent ten years of future happiness.  People survive hardship every day and go on to live happier lives, even if there are moments of lingering pain.  One dark moment does not ruin you forever.

[Ryzaki]

If you defile the urn, Leliana attacks YOU.  You cannot prevent her from attacking you.  So you pretty much have to kill her in that situation.  

Wrong.

 

Hardened Leliana can be talked down. And she only loses 10 approval. And does not end the romance.

[whitless256]

Wrong.

 

Hardened Leliana can be talked down. And she only loses 10 approval. And does not end the romance.

 

My mistake.  She attacked me and I had to put her down.

 

(only for her to be resurrected by the Maker.... wtf Bioware)

[Ryzaki]

My mistake.  She attacked me and I had to put her down.

 

(only for her to be resurrected by the Maker.... wtf Bioware)

 

Yeah it's yet another example of how you can do things to get around the BS in female romance characters.

 

She really should've just walked away. Would've made far more sense.

[RShara]

If you defile the urn, Leliana attacks YOU.  You cannot prevent her from attacking you.  So you pretty much have to kill her in that situation.  

 

 

So doing the Dark Ritual means that you and Alistair will never, ever be happy together?  A moment of pain prevents any kind of future happiness?  

 

Ten years down the road, Warden Alistair seems pretty much like himself.  Not traumatized or ruined.  And he even makes a humorous comment about Morrigan just before the end of the Adamant scene.  He SMILES in amusement during said comment.  Obviously he's not permanently scarred and traumatized to the point where it's impossible for him to live a happy life because he once slept with Morrigan.  

 

If one difficult moment ruins you for life, then everyone will be ruined!   If Fenris can get over the stuff he had to go through and have a happily ever after with Hawke, Alistair can do the same.  One bad moment does not prevent ten years of future happiness.  People survive hardship every day and go on to live happier lives, even if there are moments of lingering pain.  One dark moment does not ruin you forever.

 

But the bad moment is a really bad moment.  It's also ugh, and wtf and bugnuts and messed up in so many ways.

 

Yes you can recover from it and quite possibly be stronger than you were (together) before, but it's still an icky icky icky thing that the males don't have to deal with.

[whitless256]

But the bad moment is a really bad moment.  It's also ugh, and wtf and bugnuts and messed up in so many ways.

 

Yes you can recover from it and quite possibly be stronger than you were (together) before, but it's still an icky icky icky thing that the males don't have to deal with.

 

I totally agree with you there.  It's an icky thing and guys don't have to deal with it.   But it's not inevitable tragedy like Thane.  And I do like the idea of it making them stronger together because of the hardship they've shared.  A happy ending with Alistair feels earned, whereas Cullen is just so much fluffy. 

[RShara]

It's not death-tragedy, but I'd still put it in the heartbreaking category as far as romances in games go.

[Thiefy]

If you defile the urn, Leliana attacks YOU.  You cannot prevent her from attacking you.  So you pretty much have to kill her in that situation.  

 

 

So doing the Dark Ritual means that you and Alistair will never, ever be happy together?  A moment of pain prevents any kind of future happiness?  

 

Ten years down the road, Warden Alistair seems pretty much like himself.  Not traumatized or ruined.  And he even makes a humorous comment about Morrigan just before the end of the Adamant scene.  He SMILES in amusement during said comment.  Obviously he's not permanently scarred and traumatized to the point where it's impossible for him to live a happy life because he once slept with Morrigan.  

 

If one difficult moment ruins you for life, then everyone will be ruined!   If Fenris can get over the stuff he had to go through and have a happily ever after with Hawke, Alistair can do the same.  One bad moment does not prevent ten years of future happiness.  People survive hardship every day and go on to live happier lives, even if there are moments of lingering pain.  One dark moment does not ruin you forever.

Yeah, that's ALL metagame knowledge. 5 years ago when the game first came out and you played it, you had NO idea what the consequences would be. Hell a handful of months ago you didn't know.

 

And it's not that sleeping with Morrigan is the the issue, it's whether or not the God baby would be something we all lived to regret. It's even lamp shaded in Alistair's banter with Morrigan in DAI - he expected Keiran to be more "demony"; his words.

[Chenoah]

I like it. It gets you emotionally invested. You can have your happy ending with some of those characters. Alistair and you can be king and queen or stay with the wardens. Thane dies happy and fulfilled. It is sad but you knew he was dying when you met him. I never romanced Jacob. The Solas story line hurts but I hope they will give you at least some closure on that note.

[whitless256]

Yeah, that's ALL metagame knowledge. 5 years ago when the game first came out and you played it, you had NO idea what the consequences would be. Hell a handful of months ago you didn't know.

 

And it's not that sleeping with Morrigan is the the issue, it's whether or not the God baby would be something we all lived to regret. It's even lamp shaded in Alistair's banter with Morrigan in DAI - he expected Keiran to be more "demony"; his words.

 

But then isn't using Adamant as extra tragedy also then metagame knowledge?  5 years ago, you didn't know he could possibly die in a choice in the third installment of the series.  

[Laurelinde]

For me the Dark Ritual is almost worse, or at least more difficult, than a sacrifice kind of ending because as a female Warden, it's not you making the decision, ultimately.  It's Alistair.  If you romanced Alistair, as my Cousland did, it's not a matter of trying to justify to yourself whether or not to compromise on your principles.  You're asking the person you love to go back on pretty much everything they believe in (blood magic, sex without love, and having a child you won't be there to raise).  For me that felt incredibly difficult.  Certainly, I'd feel more confident in my decision to take a bullet to save my partner, for example, than to expect him to go out and kill someone to save us, if we were being held at gunpoint.

[Thiefy]

But then isn't using Adamant as extra tragedy also then metagame knowledge?  5 years ago, you didn't know he could possibly die in a choice in the third installment of the series.  

No because you are looking at decisions you are making at the time. 5 years ago, with the DR, you didn't have the knowledge you do now. However, on your current DAI playthrough, you have the knowledge of previous games and that colors your choices you make for this particular installment.

 

Alistair's romance was tragic back then for all the shenanigans. It continues to be more tragic now because of this particular event in DAI.

[RShara]

I like it. It gets you emotionally invested. You can have your happy ending with some of those characters. Alistair and you can be king and queen or stay with the wardens. Thane dies happy and fulfilled. It is sad but you knew he was dying when you met him. I never romanced Jacob. The Solas story line hurts but I hope they will give you at least some closure on that note.

1.  Only if you're human noble.

2.  He can die at adamant

3.  Thane dying happy and fulfilled was completely out of character for a romanced Thane and there was not enough content to explain his change of stance.

4.  Jacob dumps you.  Glad you weren't affected, but it doesn't change the facts.

5.  Solas, let's just say my skepticism is pretty high on this.

[whitless256]

No because you are looking at decisions you are making at the time. 5 years ago, with the DR, you didn't have the knowledge you do now. However, on your current DAI playthrough, you have the knowledge of previous games and that colors your choices you make for this particular installment.

 

Alistair's romance was tragic back then for all the shenanigans. It continues to be more tragic now because of this particular event in DAI.

 

Actually I was just using the evidence that we've had since then to prove that my initial lack of concern with it was proven right.   Five years ago I didn't have any future knowledge, but I was not the least bit bothered by the Dark Ritual or any other Alistair issues.    DAI proves I was right, as he's just fine.  Happy ending IS possible.   

[9TailsFox]

For me the Dark Ritual is almost worse, or at least more difficult, than a sacrifice kind of ending because as a female Warden, it's not you making the decision, ultimately.  It's Alistair.  If you romanced Alistair, as my Cousland did, it's not a matter of trying to justify to yourself whether or not to compromise on your principles.  You're asking the person you love to go back on pretty much everything they believe in (blood magic, sex without love, and having a child you won't be there to raise).  For me that felt incredibly difficult.  Certainly, I'd feel more confident in my decision to take a bullet to save my partner, for example, than to expect him to go out and kill someone to save us, if we were being held at gunpoint.

Sex without love count us in.

[Thiefy]

Actually I was just using the evidence that we've had since then to prove that my initial lack of concern with it was proven right.   Five years ago I didn't have any future knowledge, but I was not the least bit bothered by the Dark Ritual or any other Alistair issues.    DAI proves I was right, as he's just fine.  Happy ending IS possible.   

Well good on you for have no doubt that a demon baby ritual could not possibly go wrong in anyway what so ever. Doesn't mean the rest of us didn't have a valid reason for not seeing things with your rose tinted glasses.

[RShara]

Let's not be antagonistic now

[9TailsFox]

Well good on you for have no doubt that a demon baby ritual could not possibly go wrong in anyway what so ever. Doesn't mean the rest of us didn't have a valid reason for not seeing things with your rose tinted glasses.

[whitless256]

Well good on you for have no doubt that a demon baby ritual could not possibly go wrong in anyway what so ever. Doesn't mean the rest of us didn't have a valid reason for not seeing things with your rose tinted glasses.

 

I hope I'm reading this wrong, but just in case I want to apologize if I've said anything that read as judgmental or anything.  I'm not faulting anyone else who felt differently about things than I did.  I was just trying to point out that not all of us were worried over that and that it was good to see in DAI that my appraisal of the situation turned out to be right and that it looked like Alistair and my Warden have had a happy life together despite the Dark Ritual.  

 

I don't feel like I look at things through rose colored glasses.  I'm actually very much a realist in a lot of ways.  I've just always been a resilient person in the sense that things bother me, but I don't let them weigh me down.  I guess that has translated over into how I view difficult plot elements in games and movies.  Happy endings are impossible if you always dwell on the bad, but happy endings are also all about perspective.  Do you embrace the good that's still present or do you let the bad keep you from being happy?  I try to view things like that.

[Nefla]

Nef you scare me.
 
O_o
 
I prefer my revenge stories to just have them fall down a dark pit and never being heard from again while I drive off into the sunset. Less diapers and screaming.

I'm baby crazy in real life so babies are my solution to everything!