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[Abelas Forever!]

If you defile the urn, Leliana attacks YOU.  You cannot prevent her from attacking you.  So you pretty much have to kill her in that situation.  

But you have decided to defile the urn. This would be similar situation when you choose to recruit Loghain and Alistair will leave you. If you don't recruit Loghain then everything is fine until you will have to do the DR. And as Ryzaki said you have an option to talk to Leliana and continue romance if you have a high approval rate and you have hardened her.

[whitless256]

But you have decided to defile the urn. This would be similar situation when you choose to recruit Loghain and Alistair will leave you. If you don't recruit Loghain then everything is fine until you will have to do the DR. And as Ryzaki said you have an option to talk to Leliana and continue romance if you have a high approval rate and you have hardened her.

 

Yeah, I already conceded that I was mistaken about hardened Leliana.  And after the DR you and Alistair can live happily ever after.

[Elsariel]

Although let's explore the options you get with Alistair....

 

You can

Let him die--Tragic

Let your Warden die--Tragic

Let him impregnate Morrigan--semi-tragic

     He can become King. You can become Queen if you are a human noble.--Still semi-tragic

     He can become king.  He can marry Anora.  You can become his mistress.--More than semi-tragic

     He can become king.  He does not marry Anora?  You can become his mistress.  (I'm not sure if this is an option actually).  More than semi-tragic.

     He can become king.  He can leave you completely.--Tragic

     He can stay a grey warden.

         He or Hawke die at Adamant.--Tragic

Let Loghain live and let Loghain impregnate Morrigan

     Alistair leaves you.--Tragic

 

Did I miss or get anything wrong?

 

So

 

With the utmost respect, I think it's a matter of perspective.  Some of these that you listed as semi-tragic I consider as wins.    Becoming Queen?  Becoming Mistress?  Both happy endings in my book.  Any ending where my warden and Alistair are together are happy endings.   

 

The alternative is that Bioware would have had to change their lore so that Grey Wardens don't die after killing the Archdemon.  

[Abelas Forever!]

Yeah, I already conceded that I was mistaken about hardened Leliana.  And after the DR you and Alistair can live happily ever after.

Except if he is warden. Then there is still Adamant. But anyway the point still is that you don't end up in those kind of situations when you are romancing a female LI. You always get a happy ending if you want it and quite easily. I'm just getting tired of that if a romance is going to end badly then it seems to be the option for PC romancing male LI.

[whitless256]

It feels like this discussion is on constant repeat.  People (myself included) rehash points that have been made and discussed to death.  It's probably time for this to die before it repeats itself for the tenth time.  No new points are coming up.   I think it's safe to say that how most of the romances turn out come down to a matter of perspective and most folks have agreed to disagree on those perspectives. 

 

I still feel like I said a few posts up that a happy ending is what you make of it.  Bad things happen, but in cases where the game ends with your LI still alive and present, your characters can make happiness if your own headcannon decides it.

[RShara]

The problem and point is that the LI alive and present is much less likely for straight females than for straight males.

[whitless256]

The problem and point is that the LI alive and present is much less likely for straight females than for straight males.

 

And we've hashed and rehashed that point to death (no pun intended) as well.  I'm not arguing that is not true.   My point with that line was that people are arguing back and forth about endings being tragic when the LIs DO end up together and I ain't buying that.  I think that comes down to how you look at it.

 

Most folks have agreed that it's too skewed as is and needs to be adjusted.  However there is a large level of disagreement on where the line is drawn to define tragic.

[Abelas Forever!]

Of course people have different opinions which is a happy ending and what is a tragic ending. Some people might find it enough that you and your LI are alive in the end. But sometimes the road which leads there is bitter. Of course if you like it then you don't have a problem with it. But some people have problems with the bitterness when it happens almost every time and you don't have enough choices to deal with it. I think Alistair romance would have been quite different if you had the option to recruit Loghain without Alistair leaving and then you would have a choice either make him do the DR or make him sacrifice himself. In that case I wouldn't have any problems with the whole romance in DAO.

[RShara]

I think Alistair's is the only one that could really go both ways.  The others are pretty cut and dried He-aint-there endings.

[RShara]

Of course people have different opinions which is a happy ending and what is a tragic ending. Some people might find it enough that you and your LI are alive in the end. But sometimes the road which leads there is bitter. Of course if you like it then you don't have a problem with it. But some people have problems with the bitterness when it happens almost every time and you don't have enough choices to deal with it. I think Alistair romance would have been quite different if you had the option to recruit Loghain without Alistair leaving and then you would have a choice either make him do the DR or make him sacrifice himself. In that case I wouldn't have any problems with the whole romance in DAO.

I would have loved that choice!

[whitless256]

Of course people have different opinions which is a happy ending and what is a tragic ending. Some people might find it enough that you and your LI are alive in the end. But sometimes the road which leads there is bitter. Of course if you like it then you don't have a problem with it. But some people have problems with the bitterness when it happens almost every time and you don't have enough choices to deal with it. I think Alistair romance would have been quite different if you had the option to recruit Loghain without Alistair leaving and then you would have a choice either make him do the DR or make him sacrifice himself. In that case I wouldn't have any problems with the whole romance in DAO.

 

Alistair running off like a baby if you recruit Loghain is really what soured me on Alistair.   After making him a king three times (and marrying him in one of those three games), he went and proved to me what a crappy king he'd be.  So disappointed in you, Alistair! 

[Elsariel]

I think Alistair romance would have been quite different if you had the option to recruit Loghain without Alistair leaving and then you would have a choice either make him do the DR or make him sacrifice himself. In that case I wouldn't have any problems with the whole romance in DAO.

This would really have been the ultimate ending.  I wouldn't even have minded having to jump through some hoops to make this happen.  

[phaonica]

Of course people have different opinions which is a happy ending and what is a tragic ending. Some people might find it enough that you and your LI are alive in the end. But sometimes the road which leads there is bitter. Of course if you like it then you don't have a problem with it. But some people have problems with the bitterness when it happens almost every time and you don't have enough choices to deal with it. I think Alistair romance would have been quite different if you had the option to recruit Loghain without Alistair leaving and then you would have a choice either make him do the DR or make him sacrifice himself. In that case I wouldn't have any problems with the whole romance in DAO.

 

It's just too *easy* though! Of course, give people the chance to save their loved one by killing someone they probably don't like anyway.... it's just too easy...

[MelissaGT]

 

         He or Hawke die at Adamant.--Tragic

 

 

 

Nowhere does it say they die for sure. It says "likely die." Until it's confirmed they are dead, I'm still of a mind they are alive, just trapped in the Fade (for now). I believe this will be explored in DLC.

[Chenoah]

1.  Only if you're human noble.

2.  He can die at adamant

3.  Thane dying happy and fulfilled was completely out of character for a romanced Thane and there was not enough content to explain his change of stance.

4.  Jacob dumps you.  Glad you weren't affected, but it doesn't change the facts.

5.  Solas, let's just say my skepticism is pretty high on this.

As an elf you can stay with the wardens. Die at Adamant? Are you referring to the fade? That's your choice. Kill him or don't. Sacrificing Hawke sucks but it is a choice nonetheless. Thane said himself he had nothing to live for and now he has two things that made him feel fulfilled. I am sure he would love to stay with Shepard but resigned to his fate and wasn't bitter about it. As far as Solas goes you could be right. Bioware may be unwilling to go down that road. 

[RShara]

As an elf you can stay with the wardens. Die at Adamant? Are you referring to the fade? That's your choice. Kill him or don't. Sacrificing Hawke sucks but it is a choice nonetheless. Thane said himself he had nothing to live for and now he has two things that made him feel fulfilled. I am sure he would love to stay with Shepard but resigned to his fate and wasn't bitter about it. As far as Solas goes you could be right. Bioware may be unwilling to go down that road. 

1 was, you can be queen only if you're a human noble.  2. was if he remained with the wardens.  Where does a male have to choose between their LI and their character?

If they make the straight males have to choose between their Warden and one of the female LI's then I'll concede this one.

 

Thane non romanced saying that is in character.  If you romance him, he no longer wants to die (in ME2).  In ME3 he reverts back to his pre-romanced attitude.  Please read http://forum.bioware...ost/?p=11181583 if you want more details.

[whitless256]

1 was, you can be queen only if you're a human noble.  2. was if he remained with the wardens.  Where does a male have to choose between their LI and their character?

If they make the straight males have to choose between their Warden and one of the female LI's then I'll concede this one.

 

Thane non romanced saying that is in character.  If you romance him, he no longer wants to die (in ME2).  In ME3 he reverts back to his pre-romanced attitude.  Please read http://forum.bioware...ost/?p=11181583 if you want more details.

 

While I'm still in agreement that things are lopsided, I'd like to ask how you would construct the choice between Hawke and Warden?  To never have Alistair be the Warden option?  Have it always be Stroud?  Well then, everyone will always kill Stroud instead of Hawke.  It's meant to be a difficult choice. 

 

However, I don't feel like we can weigh that againt "name me a time you had to choose between a female LI and a character."   I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, has there EVER been a choice like that before?  The choice to kill your PC from another game against killing a previous party member from another game?  I can't recall any choice like it.  And there was no possible way this choice could be altered to make it work that way for a female LI since there were no female Warden NPCs that could fill the role of senior warden in that scenario.

 

The only way to avoid that would be to a) have everyone run out of the fade after killing the nightmare.... that's okay, but it cheapens things.  I like that something tragic happened there.  or make it so Stroud is the only possible Warden character, which also cheapens the choice because... that's easy.  Hawke over Stroud. 

 

While I concede the point that women do have a harder road when it comes to LIs, I still don't think Adamant supports this position.  Adamant is a difficult choice... and it's difficult even if you DON'T have a romanced Alistair.  In some cases he's your Warden's best friend.  That's no less tragic than if it's your LI.  Kill your character or your Warden's best friend... that's shitty too. 

[Ryzaki]

Uh...you already can have the choice between Stroud and Hawke.

 

It's called king Alistair or drunk Alistair. (Or dead Alistair assuming Loghain does the US).

 

That's what my game usually looks like.

[RShara]

While I'm still in agreement that things are lopsided, I'd like to ask how you would construct the choice between Hawke and Warden?  To never have Alistair be the Warden option?  Have it always be Stroud?  Well then, everyone will always kill Stroud instead of Hawke.  It's meant to be a difficult choice. 

 

However, I don't feel like we can weigh that againt "name me a time you had to choose between a female LI and a character."   I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, has there EVER been a choice like that before?  The choice to kill your PC from another game against killing a previous party member from another game?  I can't recall any choice like it.  And there was no possible way this choice could be altered to make it work that way for a female LI since there were no female Warden NPCs that could fill the role of senior warden in that scenario.

 

The only way to avoid that would be to a) have everyone run out of the fade after killing the nightmare.... that's okay, but it cheapens things.  I like that something tragic happened there.  or make it so Stroud is the only possible Warden character, which also cheapens the choice because... that's easy.  Hawke over Stroud. 

 

While I concede the point that women do have a harder road when it comes to LIs, I still don't think Adamant supports this position.  Adamant is a difficult choice... and it's difficult even if you DON'T have a romanced Alistair.  In some cases he's your Warden's best friend.  That's no less tragic than if it's your LI.  Kill your character or your Warden's best friend... that's shitty too. 

Well I'm a big fan of no deaths, and I don't think that everyone surviving cheapens anything.  But that's just me, feel free to disagree

[lil yonce]

I think heartbreak in romance works better when its a product of differences between the couple. I think the ME2 Ashely romance is a decent example of that. Generally, I think there should be less emphasis on outside forces/extenuating circumstances keeping true love apart in Bioware games. I think that's what the heartbreaker LI list in the OP boils down to-- all romances on that list work that way.

 

Also, I think Cullen has generally been touted as Prince Charming or the safe romance, but that was not the case for my current inquisitor. I think that's how it should work-- there should be room in the writing for an LI to be both Prince Charming and a total mismatch for the PC, ideally without a lot of roleplay/headcanon.

This is copypasta from another thread but this is how is how it went in the Cullen romance:

 

Story time: Its not going to work out for Cullen and the current version of my canon inquisitor. Her major disagreements with him breakdown like this-- no circles/no templars/stay on lyrium/he needs to generally lighten up.

And then she disliked Cullen's panicky reaction to the mage alliance (no abominations emerge from Fiona's group either IIRC so it read at the time and later still reads "overreaction" to her). She doesn't like what he says about Samson and addiction-- it came off cold to her and hypocritical. She thinks his judgement of Blackwall is rather hypocritical also. And his response to her possession question rubbed her very wrong (she is a necromancer. and also in part because she isn't certain he can perceive the difference between actual danger and a threat invented in his head). Other things highlight differences too-- she didn't at all care for his suggestion to put Gaspard on the throne and some of his war table suggestions are just WTF to her. Josephine was right in her opinion-- he is often the man with a hammer to which every problem resembles a nail. lol. This just can't work.
 

I see flashes of what could be. He's attractive. Passionate. Can lead well. He works hard at rectifying past mistakes and at being a different, good person. He's sensitive, fun, and most interesting when he lets his guard down completely. He's questioning beliefs and casts off what obviously doesn't work in practice. She's very strong-willed, attempting to move on from a difficult life in the circle, forgive those she blames for it, and soften her personality. Cullen potentially works for those themes-- but at this point in time they end up completing each other in the ugliest, nastiest ways possible. You shouldn't very often think your boyfriend's a brainless pr*ck but Pia does! I'm near the end game and I think its time to initiate a break up if I can. I think in 7-10 years after they've had time to process the recent traumatic events in their lives and mellow out this couple would be fine together. But fresh off character re-defining crises, its a love-hate affair that may be fated to end very badly.

*Because I love exploring dynamics in damaged characters/difficult relationships (and because I'm evil), I may try another run of this inquisitor-- break it off with Cullen at or before the sex scene and try to go for Blackwall as a rebound romance. I can see my inquisitor hoping he's the white knight she wished Cullen would be only to be thoroughly disillusioned with him too.

 

I wish more romances could go that way when it comes to heartbreak.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

But female hearthbreak tears are delicious....Don't women love drama and heartbreak though ? Delicious angsty tears and feels...

 

 

 

[Chenoah]

1 was, you can be queen only if you're a human noble.  2. was if he remained with the wardens.  Where does a male have to choose between their LI and their character?

If they make the straight males have to choose between their Warden and one of the female LI's then I'll concede this one.

 

Thane non romanced saying that is in character.  If you romance him, he no longer wants to die (in ME2).  In ME3 he reverts back to his pre-romanced attitude.  Please read http://forum.bioware...ost/?p=11181583 if you want more details.

Ahhhh I see what you are saying now. The fairness between males and females. Well with that i can agree with. I had really hoped you might find a cure for Thane :/ 

[Shades of Night]

The situation with Alistair is interesting, because I would kinda consider that to be the ideal (aside from the dark ritual) since it involves choice and can be changed. The bump in the road is that the good ending of being queen is race gated (and class gated) and frolicking off into the sunset as a Warden leads to choosing between Alistair and your Hawke.

 

It's curious that people mention the 'Hawke/Alistair may die' wording of that choice too, because I thought it could just be the way they worded it, it's possible they didn't think of it being interpreted as a chance that the character survived. Ehh, I just assume whoever was left is dead. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they're not.

 

Also on the subject of how not having Alistair would have been an easier choice, I would have loved to have seen a choice between the Warden and Hawke. Now that would have been a really tough choice for some people to make.

 

Back to the whole choice thing. Being Alistair's mistress isn't an ideal choice (for some people) for a number of reasons, but before we knew about the whole Hawke/Alistair choice you could go with staying a Warden and keeping Alistair one as a happier alternate choice. Of course that also means you change who you support as King/Queen, but that adds to making the choice a bit tougher to make, you have to change your mind about something to get the end result you want.

 

I would have loved to see that choice in other romances. With Thane as an example, just having the chance to not get him killed by Kai Leng so that he's still alive at the end, and possibly have some news on a cure in progress if you're lucky. That way it's not a fluffy happy ending and could still go both ways, but not as badly handled as it was either. Have things that the player needs to have done, choices and quests so they have to work for it, but just knowing that you can get to a better result can be very motivating for people.

[Abelas Forever!]

While I'm still in agreement that things are lopsided, I'd like to ask how you would construct the choice between Hawke and Warden?  To never have Alistair be the Warden option?  Have it always be Stroud?  Well then, everyone will always kill Stroud instead of Hawke.  It's meant to be a difficult choice. 

 

However, I don't feel like we can weigh that againt "name me a time you had to choose between a female LI and a character."   I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, has there EVER been a choice like that before?  The choice to kill your PC from another game against killing a previous party member from another game?  I can't recall any choice like it.  And there was no possible way this choice could be altered to make it work that way for a female LI since there were no female Warden NPCs that could fill the role of senior warden in that scenario.

 

The only way to avoid that would be to a) have everyone run out of the fade after killing the nightmare.... that's okay, but it cheapens things.  I like that something tragic happened there.  or make it so Stroud is the only possible Warden character, which also cheapens the choice because... that's easy.  Hawke over Stroud. 

 

While I concede the point that women do have a harder road when it comes to LIs, I still don't think Adamant supports this position.  Adamant is a difficult choice... and it's difficult even if you DON'T have a romanced Alistair.  In some cases he's your Warden's best friend.  That's no less tragic than if it's your LI.  Kill your character or your Warden's best friend... that's shitty too. 

Maybe one of your companions would offer to sacrifice himself/herself in addition to Hawke and Alistair/Stroud. I was thinking of Blackwall. I know that he is not what he says he is but I'm assuming that he still is a warden so it makes sense that he would want to sacrifice himself. Of course this would lead to a situation where you will have to decide between the romance in earlier games and a romance between the current game but at least there would be more choice in that situation and it still would be tragic.

 

When I created my world state at keep for my first playthrough. I chose the characters from my first playthroughs from previous games where Alistair was warden and romanced my PC and my Hawke romanced Fenris. I like more when Alistair is a warden because I'm not interested in playing the human noble and I don't like to be his mistress. I have played the human nobel one but I rather play as an elf. So I was very happy with my world state. I decided to romance Solas on my first playtrhough and I soon get the feeling that it might not end well. Well I decided to romance him anyway. Then came Adamant and I was like oh great. I should have guessed that if Alistair and Hawke joins me in Adamant then I will have to choose between them. I know that it's hinted that the one who is left behind is not necessary dead but until I know for sure I'm going to expect that the one is dead. This wouldn't have been so big deal to me if there hasn't been other tragic romances before and all the difficulties with Alistair romance. And of course when I thought about the female LIs and the lack of tragic in those romances I felt frustrated. And of course Solas will leave you at the end of the game. However I think there is a good change that you can get him back but that is not sure.

[Sylvianus]

And many of us have argued that the Dark Ritual is not tragic.  My female Warden talked him into doing the Dark Ritual, which he did because SHE asked him to, and then he became king and they were married.  I consider that to be a happily ever after.   Much happier than my male Warden was when Morrigan walked out on him for two years and forced him to hunt her down.    But this issue has been rehashed and rehashed in this discussion.  

 

My female warden with Allistair as his queen, or the one as his mistress, in the end, were much more happier than my canon male warden too.

 

My warden didn't even hunt her down, he wanted to do good for his ravaged country. Toward the end of DAO, he desesperately tried to change Morrigan's mind, ( I used all the options that could try to convince her ) to the point that she was upset and became angry, threatening to leave immediately. That's with this furious reaction that I understood it wasn't a joke, it was for real and that the game wouldn't let me have an happy ending " let's be together forever " XD ! She left. She had things to do. I had mixed feelings, as it was intended I suppose. On one hand I felt, this sucks, on the other hand, I felt, well the journey was awesome and the ending make it even more astonishing. 

 

There was no immediate DLC to fix this, and nothing that could tell me it would change one day. I was left in the dark. Months and months happened before Witch hunt. For me it was over in DAO, and well done. So yeah, like I said, I'm not sure the straight males didn't live heartbreak romance with Morrigan, simply because we had this dlc later. Maybe those who have difficulties to understand this or dismiss the point so easily, should be left in the dark and wait one or two years before knowing and having their closure, maybe they'd see more my point of view. 

 

And I'm still not sure how this DLC could fix anything, while we knew nothing about them in the eluvian, again left in the dark. This Dlc has become meaningful only with DA:I.

 

Then, but there it it personal, my warden - alone - saw Morrigan two years after, when this surprising DLC appeared. 

 

And he didn't follow her in the Eluvians, he was the king of Ferelden and had things to do too. Two years ago he would have done anything for her, he would have followed her anywhere, he would have kill anyone without asking question, ( actually he did with flemeth LOL ) My warden who fighted like a dog in DAO to prevent her from leaving him two years ago, let her go, while this time it was Morrigan who asked him with emotion to remain at her side. 

 

A last sad gaze, a step back, and my character finally turning his back silently from Morrigan while his face talks for him is the official end of the relationship I imagined. I am totally satisfied with it.