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[whitless256]

The reason that the Dark Ritual is so awful for some of us is not because "another woman" or "another woman having Alistair's baby," but because "rape."  Although Alistair does consent, the whole situation is very unpalatable.  Reverse the genders.  You have to send your LI to have sex with another man so that she becomes pregnant with what might be a demon baby.  That isn't going to bother you even a little?  Even though she makes a terrified/disgusted face right before they do the deed?

 

He may not be permanently scarred by it, but I can't imagine it would help his relationship with the Warden in the long run, knowing she would ask him to do such a thing--even if it truly saved both of their lives.

 

 

Actually, you're the first person to come to the table with saying she's bothered by it because it's like rape.  I've been responding to a long list of people either straight out calling it cheating or saying that it's not happy to make him sleep with another woman when he's in a relationship with the Warden.  I do agree that seeing it as rape is valid, but thus far it really hasn't been part of the discussion I've been participating in. 

 

But since you asked... even though it actually gets worse if you reverse it and make the Warden carry the baby, I'm not bothered enough by it to say that it creates a tragic ending.  It's much more complicated, as the question of having the male Morrigan (for lack of something better to call him) hang around for nine months waiting for the baby to be born.  It's also far more personal, as it not only requires a woman to have sex with someone she doesn't like, but also requires her to have a pregnancy, birth a child, bond with it, then give it up, which is ridiculously more difficult to go through.  But even with that, if the decision was made by two consenting adults (the male Warden and the female Alistair) after a discussion between the two of them, it would not be rape and it would not be a tragic ending.  It would be a very difficult challenge that would absolutely affect their relationship, but it would not prevent a happily ever after, which is the complaint you are presenting.

 

I also want to say, before people start misunderstanding what I just said in the above paragraph, I realize we live in a world where there is a very serious issue with rape culture, including a very unfair double standard when it comes to men and women.  I do realize that there are degrees of rape and degrees of consent.  But to me, it feels like the Dark Ritual is not rape.  It's distasteful to at least one of the parties involved (Morrigan isn't pleased about the DR if she's not on friendly terms with your Warden).  But the Warden and Alistair do discuss it and come to a mutual decision as two adults. 

 

The point I've been making is not that these things aren't difficult, it's that they don't prevent future happiness.

[Ryzaki]

Eh DR left a sour enough taste in my mouth to chase me towards Leliana. So YMMV about the preventing future happiness bit.

 

I might be able to tolerate it when a male PC has to go through similar crap with a female one but as it is. No thank you.

[syllogi]

I also want to say, before people start misunderstanding what I just said in the above paragraph, I realize we live in a world where there is a very serious issue with rape culture, including a very unfair double standard when it comes to men and women.  I do realize that there are degrees of rape and degrees of consent.  But to me, it feels like the Dark Ritual is not rape.  It's distasteful to at least one of the parties involved (Morrigan isn't pleased about the DR if she's not on friendly terms with your Warden).  But the Warden and Alistair do discuss it and come to a mutual decision as two adults. 

 

While I was okay with having Alistair do the DR, it was mostly because I tried not to think about it too closely.  I really don't think that genuine consent can be given when someone tells you that if you don't have sex with them, you or another person is DEFINITELY going to DIE.  That's really horrible, actually, and although it's not portrayed that bluntly, when you come down to it, nobody should ever be put in that situation.

[whitless256]

Eh DR left a sour enough taste in my mouth to chase me towards Leliana. So YMMV about the preventing future happiness bit.

 

I might be able to tolerate it when a male PC has to go through similar crap with a female one but as it is. No thank you.

 

What do you mean chase you towards Leliana?  Do you mean you ended the Alistair romance the night of the dark ritual and romanced Leliana instead?  I didn't think that was possible. 

[Ryzaki]

What do you mean chase you towards Leliana?  Do you mean you ended the Alistair romance the night of the dark ritual and romanced Leliana instead?  I didn't think that was possible. 

 

Nope I mean I reloaded to the landsmeet, married hardened Alistair to Anora, got dumped, recruited Loghain and romanced Leliana before heading to redcliffe.

[whitless256]

While I was okay with having Alistair do the DR, it was mostly because I tried not to think about it too closely.  I really don't think that genuine consent can be given when someone tells you that if you don't have sex with them, you or another person is DEFINITELY going to DIE.  That's really horrible, actually, and although it's not portrayed that bluntly, when you come down to it, nobody should ever be put in that situation.

 

You were going to die anyway, though.  There was no stopping the fact that either the Warden or Alistair would die.  It's different than saying "do the ritual with me or I'll kill you" which is totally coercion.  Morrigan offers you an out, and it's up to you to decide which is worse.... the ritual or death.  Morrigan has nothing to do with the fact that you're going to die.

[whitless256]

Nope I mean I reloaded to the landsmeet, married hardened Alistair to Anora, got dumped, recruited Loghain and romanced Leliana before heading to redcliffe.

 

Ah, gotcha.  That makes much more sense.

[Ryzaki]

As for Morrigan she isn't the one threatening with death no but she had access to that information and didn't think to tell the warden til she thought she could benefit from it while the warden was still reeling in shock.

 

And then when you say no the first time she has the nerve to pull out the "if you loved him you'd do this." crap.

 

I thoroughly enjoy laughing in her face and pointing at Loghain.

[phaonica]

You were going to die anyway, though.  There was no stopping the fact that either the Warden or Alistair would die.  It's different than saying "do the ritual with me or I'll kill you" which is totally coercion.  Morrigan offers you an out, and it's up to you to decide which is worse.... the ritual or death.  Morrigan has nothing to do with the fact that you're going to die.

 

One might argue that the whole problem is that the Ritual shouldn't have been written to involve sex at all. That when it comes to manipulating a player into making "hard choices" that anything involving sex is off limits.

[whitless256]

One might argue that the whole problem is that the Ritual shouldn't have been written to involve sex at all. That when it comes to manipulating a player into making "hard choices" that anything involving sex is off limits.

 

Point well taken.  But Bioware has never been the company to skirt around hard and uncomfortable content. 

[Elsariel]

The Dark Ritual is not rape. Are we serious right now? Do we need to be reminded what rape actually is? Because I think trying to tag such a serious offense to what is clearly consent in the game is greatly disturbing.

I think the argument for why the DR was awful could very well be made (and has been made) without throwing out such cheap tactics.

[Brass_Buckles]

The Dark Ritual is not rape. Are we serious right now? Do we need to be reminded what rape actually is? Because I think trying to tag such a serious offense to what is clearly consent in the game is greatly disturbing.

I think the argument for why the DR was awful could very well be made (and has been made) without throwing out such cheap tactics.

 

I pointed out that he did consent, but it is still a very skeevy borderline situation.  He's just been told that if he doesn't have sex that he doesn't want to have with someone he hates, then either he or his loved one will die.  He agrees to it, so it's NOT rape, but it's so close that it's an incredibly "wrong" situation.  Even his facial expression, for all that they could manage ten years ago, was terrified and unhappy.

 

Whether you consider the Dark Ritual rape or not (I think it's borderline--which is what I was trying to say above), it's something that never, ever should have been a decision that players had to make.  It's one thing for a male Warden who romanced Morrigan--Oh sure have his baby!  Quite another to send Alistair-who-hates-Morrigan to have sex with Morrigan, whom he doesn't want to have sex with.

 

And again when you reverse the genders--say it wasn't possible for the Male Warden to sex up Romanced!Morrigan for the DR, but instead he had to send Alistair or Loghain to do the deed--it looks really, really bad.

[SardaukarElite]

The Dark Ritual is not rape. Are we serious right now? Do we need to be reminded what rape actually is? Because I think trying to tag such a serious offense to what is clearly consent in the game is greatly disturbing.

 

The consent is given under pressure though. The proposition essentially goes "Have sex with this woman or you, your friend/lover or some random French guy will not only die but have their soul destroyed." That right there is coercion, I don't know whether that's included in most rape definitions, but it's still pretty serious.

 

However, Morrigan's goal isn't having sex with Alistair (probably), and the escape sex is a required part of the not having anyone's soul destroyed, so in that sense it isn't exactly the same.

[9TailsFox]

One might argue that the whole problem is that the Ritual shouldn't have been written to involve sex at all. That when it comes to manipulating a player into making "hard choices" that anything involving sex is off limits.

Why? Dragon age is "mature" game for adults. And I don't talk about blood and ******. Self made censorship destroy you faster than forced. This why DA:O story was great it touched all subject "oh you can't put this in game it's uncomfortable topic" slavery,rape, murder... . DA:I just have cartoon antagonist we don't care about. I wanted revenge in DA:O because Rendon Howe not just kill warden family but slaughtered.

[phaonica]

And again when you reverse the genders--say it wasn't possible for the Male Warden to sex up Romanced!Morrigan for the DR, but instead he had to send Alistair or Loghain to do the deed--it looks really, really bad.

 

I'm not sure I see how it's different when the genders are swapped.

 

I'm pretty sure a male warden does have the option to send Alistair or Loghain in his place.

 

And if a female warden had to do the DR, to be equivalent it would have been doing the DR with Alistair, not a "male Morrigan" because male Wardens potentially were doing the DR with someone who was already their lover.  A male warden would have to ask one of the women to sleep with Alistair, equivalently the woman he had romanced--which does sound kind of iffy, but I don't know about moreso, just equivalently.

[phaonica]

Why? Dragon age is "mature" game for adults. And I don't talk about blood and ******. Self made censorship destroy you faster than forced. This why DA:O story was great it touched all subject "oh you can't put this in game it's uncomfortable topic" slavery,rape, murder... . DA:I just have cartoon antagonist we don't care about. I wanted revenge in DA:O because Rendon Howe not just kill warden family but slaughtered.

 

As far as sex as a choice/catalyst/consequence/whatever, I think that it shouldn't be off limits, but I do think that it should have limits.  A story can be mature and challenging without being insensitive.

[AlanC9]

The consent is given under pressure though. The proposition essentially goes "Have sex with this woman or you, your friend/lover or some random French guy will not only die but have their soul destroyed." That right there is coercion, I don't know whether that's included in most rape definitions, but it's still pretty serious.
 
However, Morrigan's goal isn't having sex with Alistair (probably), and the escape sex is a required part of the not having anyone's soul destroyed, so in that sense it isn't exactly the same.

So we've got coercion but no actual coercer?

[SardaukarElite]

So we've got coercion but no actual coercer?

 

Well The Warden talks Alistair into it by presenting him with a forced choice, so I think that makes them the coercer. It is pretty mixed up though.

[UnknownIntrigue]

There is no must even as a male in the dark ritual., if you refuse her offer first, then she asks you to go and convince Alistair or Loghain to do the ritual depending who is in the party. During my playthrough in which I had romanced Leliana, as a part of being faithfulness, I asked Alistair to go and do the ritual.  Also I would have liked to see Annora as a legitimate romance option.

 

The developers should at first start making good game mechanics and designs adn fix the many issues that are in the game and then move on to some more...second class issues. Romance does do much of a thing in making a game better, maybe it does but not much, although I consider romance a major part of an RPG, but look at how shallow romance is handled in Skyrim or fallout games and they are still great games that people love. So This issue although being important, is not as important as other issues that need fixing.

[Abelas Forever!]

Not exactly. It really depends on the percertange the drama/problems/misunderstandings and the make-up-and-happy-afterwards part have in the whole story. If the former takes most part, then it's more drama. Also, lots just end in drama. And thats not even including the ones with "omg so abusive and dark and mysterious guy, but I can totes change him" crap.

 

Female oriented romances have traditionally a great percentege of not all/mostly all is happy content. Bioware is no different, for the same reasons those novels end as they do.

I'm not sure do I understand what you are trying to say here. Are saying that because there isn't anything similar like romance novels targeted to women then Morrigan romance is an attemp to do something similar like those romance novels but for men. Are you saying that it's harder to men to deal with the Morrigan romance because they have not used to that kind of drama?

 

 

Compared to the whole thing about killing the Arch Demon kills the Warden who strikes the blow, all the Alistair drama seems like small potatoes. 

That's true but were are not arguing about that here

[UnknownIntrigue]

Also, saying tha romance is handled loosly in DAO or DA2, imo, is invalid. It all depends on how you play and approach romance. Weather you go all the way of maxing their approval rate by giving them gifts, which thankfully that was not possible in DA2, something I liked, or you go ahead and raise their approval rating using dialogue and  different choice during quests, which in return led to you knowing them personality wise which is imo better. The only gift I can rmember getting for them was that black book for Morrigan, only because she asked for it and that it was a quest AND who does not enjoy a fight with a high dragon, and Duncan`s shield as it meant something to alistair, he actualy.

[Abelas Forever!]

 

There is no must even as a male in the dark ritual., if you refuse her offer first, then she asks you to go and convince Alistair or Loghain to do the ritual depending who is in the party. During my playthrough in which I had romanced Leliana, as a part of being faithfulness, I asked Alistair to go and do the ritual.  Also I would have liked to see Annora as a legitimate romance option.

 

The developers should at first start making good game mechanics and designs adn fix the many issues that are in the game and then move on to some more...second class issues. Romance does do much of a thing in making a game better, maybe it does but not much, although I consider romance a major part of an RPG, but look at how shallow romance is handled in Skyrim or fallout games and they are still great games that people love. So This issue although being important, is not as important as other issues that need fixing.

 

Male PCs have one option more than female PCs what comes to DR which is that you can do it yourself. Except that if you are romancing Alistair then consequences of those options are more or less bad. If you don't do the ritual then one of you will die and if you do the ritual then you'll have to convince Alistair to do it which many people don't like and there are quite many reasons people don't like it. I don't like it because I'll have to let my boyfriend to sleep with another woman even though they don't have romantic feelings towards each other.

 

Romance is not the priority in BioWare's games. I think it's considered to be tertiary content maybe? But it definitely is not the primary thing when developing games. We all like different aspects in games. I can forgive many of the faults in a game if there is a good romance or the story is good. But if the game mechanics are the best there can be but the story is poor then I don't want to play the game at all. I don't think that the romance issues are something that needs to be fixed because they are not broken. There are just some people who are getting frustrated that there is so much more drama when romancing a male PC when comparing to romancing a  female LI. I think that if attention is paid in this thing then it can benefit all.

[UnknownIntrigue]

Male PCs have one option more than female PCs what comes to DR which is that you can do it yourself. Except that if you are romancing Alistair then consequences of those options are more or less bad. If you don't do the ritual then one of you will die and if you do the ritual then you'll have to convince Alistair to do it which many people don't like and there are quite many reasons people don't like it. I don't like it because I'll have to let my boyfriend to sleep with another woman even though they don't have romantic feelings towards each other.

If you do not want you boyfriend sleep with Morrigan, then dont convince him. Go fo the final battle and live with the consequence of your choice of love over you/your friend/people`s life and accept it. RPG is about choice and cosequence, right? so you say you dont like to allow your bf sleep with her. ok, don`t choose to convince him for the sake of perfection in the game. Choose not to and live with its consquences.

[Abelas Forever!]

If you do not want you boyfriend sleep with Morrigan, then dont convince him. Go fo the final battle and live with the consequence of your choice of love over you/your friend/people`s life and accept it. RPG is about choice and cosequence, right? so you say you dont like to allow your bf sleep with her. ok, don`t choose to convince him for the sake of perfection in the game. Choose not to and live with its consquences.

This topic is about romancing male LIs and that there is more tragic outcomes and drama in those romances than in romancing female LIs. So the Alistair romance is just one example about it. The problem comes when in several games the tragedy happens more or less with the relationships with the male LIs. When you are romancing a female LI then you are not offered such difficult choices which could lead to consequences like in romancing Alistair.

[UnknownIntrigue]

This topic is about romancing male LIs and that there is more tragic outcomes and drama in those romances than in romancing female LIs. So the Alistair romance is just one example about it. The problem comes when in several games the tragedy happens more or less with the relationships with the male LIs. When you are romancing a female LI then you are not offered such difficult choices which could lead to consequences like in romancing Alistair.

Really? a male  warden for example, if chooses not sleep with morrigan in that final time and also refuse to have someone else sleep with her due to lack of trust or ethical excuses, then the he sees the consequence in fighting flemeth alone in DAI which is hard and Morrigan ending up dead/possessed. No consequence? really? Or where Shepard has to choose one of the three options in the end of ME3 that all end up making him dead? although in ME3 I was hoping to see what happens when the devs said "if you be unfaithful to your LI during ME1 and Me2, you would face consequences.". I was hoping for a fight, a betrayal, a walking away on Shepard. But nothing.