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Please Make Fewer Heartbreak Romances for Women - Possible Spoilers


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#876
Brass_Buckles

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I never said you were out to hurt men, because I don't believe that.  I just disagreed that no one said to "make others suffer," because that has been all over this entire 35-page thrad.  "Spreading it around" is, indeed, "making others suffer" if you're considering heartbreak romances "suffering," which it is how it's being used in this context.

 

I don't do the romances in these games for the most part.  The only romance I ever really enjoyed was Liara from Mass Effect, and mostly because it was just tied into the story so much.  It wouldn't affect me if every male romance option for every BioWare game from now until BioWare stopped making games was full of all the heartbreak in the world.

 

I also disagree that the LGBT community shouldn't get heartbreak.  I think every romance should be able to end in happiness or heartbreak, depending on how the player wants it.  Obviously there wouldn't be a dialog option with "HAPPY" and "HEARTBREAK" options when speaking with your LI at the end of the game, but using things like hardening/not hardening, approval/disapproval, etc., I believe the player should be able to craft every outcome.  Not the character, mind you; your character shouldn't have power over the world and everyone in it.  But through the character, the player should as much as the developers can make it.

 

It's not "making others suffer" if they enjoy a heartbreaker story.  That's not what it's about, it's just about trying to get the numbers to skew more fairly, or else to reduce the numbers overall that women are afflicted with, or better yet, to have everyone have the possibility but then just have it happen because of choices we made.

 

I don't consider playing a game and having an unhappy ending "suffering."  Yeah, I get sad for a while but it's a game, and my character isn't real.  I know some people get very invested (I was that way with Mass Effect, but I didn't get as involved with DA:I I guess?) and so for their sake, the choice to be able to make their story happier, or sadder, would be infinitely preferable.

 

The thing is, sometimes the story can't go any other way (oh hi Solas, Anders), or... could it be tweaked in some way to give the player more agency without compromising the story?

 

It's really hard to say.


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#877
TevinterSupremacist

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People asking for less heartbreak in romances aimed at their demographic because they don't want to experience soloely/mostly such romances makes perfect sense.

 

People asking for more heartbreak in romances aimed at other demographics that (for the most part) they won't get to experience feels quite bizarre to me. Even petty.



#878
Zobert

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I don't mind heartbreak romances if there are other choices.  Mass Effect didn't give women that.  It's all a heartbreak choice since we can't take our players with us to the next game.  I was more upset about Alastair since I broke up with Zevran for him and he couldn't marry me then knowing I can't be with a _________like in DA:I.

 

That sort of makes sense.

 

At first when I saw that Cullen was missing the goatee and looked like he did blow and saw Solas I was like, Bioware screwed women again.  But even though Bull looks like a demon, his personality rocks and Blackwall's story is sweet.  Women did OK in Origins.  Sera while annoying is also cute and Josephine! 

 

Women made out in this game.  Just because we didn't get Dorian as a lover doesn't mean we didn't get a good cast of characters and he's your good pal that is flirty anyway.

 

Although they could have given cullen his goatee back.

 

Oh who am I kidding, I'm still hung up on Alastair from the first one.  :(  And Zevran.  No one, no one beats his party banter.



#879
Addai

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The thing is, sometimes the story can't go any other way (oh hi Solas, Anders), or... could it be tweaked in some way to give the player more agency without compromising the story?
 
It's really hard to say.

Anders is not a female only romance. You also can stay with him and he lives past DA2, or you can execute him. Isn't that giving players a range of options?

I'm just trying to understand the objection being made, because so far I'm not seeing this disparity everyone is claiming. It looks to me like "don't make an LI plot critical." That doesn't sit well with me, because Solavellan being closely tied to the main plot is one of the reasons it's so interesting.
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#880
Andraste_Reborn

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People asking for more heartbreak in romances aimed at other demographics that (for the most part) they won't get to experience feels quite bizarre to me. Even petty.

 

You're assuming that women don't play male characters. Half of my Dragon Age protagonists have been male.



#881
Abyss108

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People asking for less heartbreak in romances aimed at their demographic because they don't want to experience soloely/mostly such romances makes perfect sense.

 

People asking for more heartbreak in romances aimed at other demographics that (for the most part) they won't get to experience feels quite bizarre to me. Even petty.

 

Nobody wants heartbreak for other demographics out of pettiness or to make them suffer. 

 

Tragedy is a valid and very effective type of storytelling, and there's nothing wrong with using it. But it shouldn't always go to the same demographic.

 

Give men some tragedy, give men some happiness, give women some tragedy, give women some happiness. Everyone should have access to similar content across the series.


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#882
berelinde

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Speaking from the male perspective only, before DAO, it seemed like almost every Bioware fantasy romance option (can't speak for games I haven't played) likely had a heartbreak ending.  Weren't most of the BG2 female choices flawed somehow? 

Viconia- rewarding story, as the Hero could move her away from evil, yet in the epilogue, she ends up being murdered by assassins.

Aerie- It was easier to feel sorry for her, than see her as a romance option.  Very whiney.

Jaheira-Nothing like trying to romance a bitter, recent widow, who used to babysit you.  Still, was a well written character...but definitely heartbreak involved.

 

NwN1-  From what I recall, only one option, Aribeth.  And if that was not a case of heartbreak, I do not know what is. No matter what the Savior of Neverwinter City did, to save the sorry butts of Lord Nasher and all his pathetic subjects, his girlfriend was going to be executed, without even a chance to protest.  They tried to make up for it, in the third installment, by letting you romance her ghost  (golf clap).

 

DAO:  Morrigan was probably the best written romance, imo, of any I have played.  Even when she ran away, you had the option to chase after her.  And so, it was satisfying, even before the Witch Hunt DLC.  Leliana was good, too.  Just did not seem to have the complexities to make it as memorable.

 

DA2:  Merrill barely felt like a romance, not sure why.   Then with Isabella, it felt like she was playing you the whole time.  I believe the OP commented on how Alistair might cheat on you?  Isabella made you feel like you had to take a number and wait in line. 

 

DLI:  Cassandra was surprisingly decent, at least up to the point where the big love scene was.  After that....apparently the writers had better things to do.

        Cannot comment much on Josephine.  She seemed to be a fairly well written character, and the flirts were fun, before I made the decision to romance Cassandra.  Not interested enough to replay the game yet, to see how the Josephine romance turns out.  I have the feeling Cassandra would have been the better of the two choices.

  

So, while I can understand where you are coming from OP, and would be happy to see you get your wish, it hasn't exactly been all shiny on the other side of the spectrum. 

BG2: Male protagonists get 3 romances, female protagonists get 1. That's right: One. Anomen. How well did you like Anomen? (I liked him just fine, but a lot of people did not.)

 

NWN: Don't complain about male protagonists only getting one romance, because that's how many female protagonists got, too, and Valen's got his own issues.

 

DAO: Wah. You had to wait for the DLC to reunite with Morrigan. At least all of the female LIs are equipped with dragonbone plot armor. Not only are both of the male LIs killable, they both visit unhappiness on the PC. Zevran leaves and if Alistair is to survive at all, you have to force him to cheat on you with another woman. And if you aren't a human noble, he dumps you. Think you found a happy ending in keeping him a Warden? Play DAI. Years later, BioWare ensures that even those who managed to somehow find the one happy ending for Alistair get screwed. Thanks. Regarding Zevran, you get him late in the game, it's easy to kill him without even realizing he's a LI (leaving you with precisely one choice, who will either dump you, die, or cheat on you... or some combination of the above). Zevran may betray the PC, and he is pretty much never referenced again even if he doesn't. Compare that to the female LIs, both of whom are not only immortal, but become icons. They wrote two character based DLCs, one for each female LI while the males were ignored. One of those DLCs was written specifically to give Morrigan romancers their happy ending. That hardly seems fair. So by my lights, the verdict is: Male LIs don't get happy endings, female LIs do.

 

DA2: Again, the males are killable. One of the females is. Merrill is a romance regardless of whether you liked it or not, and Isabela is no worse than Zevran. Seriously. Not sure *anybody* got a happy ending here, but it seems as if Merrill and Isabela offered more hope of it.

 

DAI: A bit more of a mixed bag. I've only played Blackwall's romance and Dorian's, but I'm already noticing a trend that the tradition of making people who prefer men to women suffer continues. On the other hand, I understand that Cullen's romance and IB's have happy ending potential. I haven't played Cassandra's romance, Josephine's, or Sera's, so I can't really say if they do.

 

So yeah, if I could ask for one thing for some future male LI, it would be a happy ending for a plot-significant male LI. One who survives the closing credits.

 

 

 

 

 

On another topic, is it really necessary to have the "betrayer" always be male? Zevran. Anders. Blackwall. I love them all (and Anders and Blackwall are my favorite romances for their respective games), but it's getting old. If you're going to sling mud, it's OK if some of it hits the women. Yeah, I know, women are vilified often enough in society and we don't really need to perpetuate that, but in BioWare games, it seems as if the worst crime they ever commit is having a sexual past (Isabela gets a *lot* of totally unnecessary and really rude hate, but Zevran and Iron Bull are at least as promiscuous or even more so and it's ignored). It's OK to write a woman who uses something other than sex to get what she wants.


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#883
TevinterSupremacist

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You're assuming that women don't play male characters. Half of my Dragon Age protagonists have been male.

 

No, I'm assuming that most people will play more characters of their own sex than not (hence, my "(for the most part)" comment). Which isn't an extreme assumption

 

 

Nobody wants heartbreak for other demographics out of pettiness or to make them suffer. 

 

Tragedy is a valid and very effective type of storytelling, and there's nothing wrong with using it. But it shouldn't always go to the same demographic.

 

Give men some tragedy, give men some happiness, give women some tragedy, give women some happiness. Everyone should have access to similar content across the series.

 

Abyss108, explain to me why you care what others will get to play.

 

Also "everyone should have acces to similar content across the series" feels a bit forced and quota-focused rather than writer-inspiration-focused, to me.



#884
Abelas Forever!

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I think there are different degrees of tragedy. You could have a romance which could end happily if you make some kind of sacrifice like DR in romancing Alistair or that you will have to forgive your LI for his/her actions like with Anders. I find this level of tragedy acceptable. Depending of the tragedy I might not like it or I might hate it like DR. My Lavellan would forgive Solas that he didn't tell her who he was and he left her. And I think this kind of tragedy will make the romance even better. Of course it's quite hard to create a tragedy that will improve the romance so that it doesn't end up ruining it. But anyway I find it still acceptable and in general I don't have problems with this kind of tragedy.Then there is tragedy which you can't do anyhing about it like Thane and Jacob. I really don't like this kind of tragedy and I hope that I can avoid it if possible.

 

There is also the thing that in general you are provided with choices. You can do the ultimate sacrifice yourself or Alistair/Loghain can do it or that you can avoid it completely. So you kind of expect to have choices in romances and how they should end as well. You might not always like them but usually you would expect there to be choices. There is also the thing that usually you can end up being very good friends with the companions and they think you are their best friend. When your LI cheats on you then it feels weird because usually your companions don't do things like that to you if you are good friends with them and your LI is more than a friend. It somehow don't fit in a game.


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#885
Abyss108

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No, I'm assuming that most people will play more characters of their own sex than not (hence, my "(for the most part)" comment). Which isn't an extreme assumption

 

 

 

Abyss108, explain to me why you care what others will get to play.

 

Also "everyone should have acces to similar content across the series" feels a bit forced and quota-focused rather than writer-inspiration-focused, to me.

 

I care what others get to play because I'm a caring person!  ;)

Seriously, I played the Solas romance inquisition, which is pretty much the most tragic thing ever. It broke my heart, and it hurt like hell, and I wouldn't change any of it for the world. Because it was a great storyline, and involved me more in the game world in a massive way. It really did enhance the experience for me. I imagine a lot of people were more involved in origins because of the Morrigan romance. Why would I NOT want lots of other people to experience things like this? The more people who get to enjoy these things the better!

 

If my argument was quota based, rather than inspiration based, I would be demanding every game have x number of y feature for z demographic and they could never do anything different. Every post I've made in this thread has been arguing for a GENERAL equality in these things. Sometimes women will be worse off, sometimes men. If the writers did this, then things would be equal across the series. eg. I think men had the better experience in origins due to Morrigan, and women in inquisition due to Solas. That's both fine.

 

I have enough faith in the writers to believe that they could be inspired by tragic romances for men, and happy romances for women, and that anything they wrote would not just be to fill a quota.


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#886
pinklyrium

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I agree with this thread. My favourite romance is Alistair but now after DA:I? 

Always felt like this romance was the most natural and best along with the Garrus one. They still stay as my favourite romances of all time and the one for which I cared most. Since Mass Effect is finished and I got Garrus/Shepard conclusion, I worry about Alistair and Warden now. I want to express my concern about this one.

Bioware started to meddle too much. (putting spoiler tag, cos spoilers and it is abit longish,sorry xD)

 

Spoiler


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#887
whitless256

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I told myself I wasn't going to come back to this discussion....

 

On the point of wanting others to suffer...  Noting that the OP has come back in an attempt to clarify her points, I feel like it's also fair to point out that a lot of others that have joined in the conversation since the OP have been very much asking for others to suffer (or at least, what to them is suffering).  I've seen people admit to things like "the DR wouldn't have been quite so bad if men had to go through the equivalent."   I can go back and find that exact post if anyone needs a quote for proof. 

 

What is the point of a comment like that?  It reads to me like some people think that if they have to have unpleasant experiences in romances, they'd feel better if everyone had to have a hard time, too.   I know others are arguing that they should be spread about just for the sake of variety, which I totally agree with. 

 

I think because we've gotten such a wide range of people with a wide range of opinions in the discussion, we're in a place now where we're not necessarily discussing the OP anymore.  We're now discussion the bajillion other things that have come up.  And while the OP and others aren't looking to make the world suffer like them, there have been a fair amount of other ladies coming by this thread to express exactly that opinion. 

 

It seems to me like the position is confusing at this point.  I've seen people argue that they'd be happy if the pain were spread around, but then in another post the exact same person says that they're sick of tragic romances (whatever their personal definition might be) and they don't want to have them at all anymore.  Which is it you want?  Many people in this discussion continue to talk about how awful their romances have been for reasons of LI's like Jacob and Thane (who seem to be the poster boys for the tragic female romance), and how they don't want those romances.  They want Thane to live somehow.   But then in the next breath they'll say they're just fine with tragedy, but not THAT tragedy, and oh by the way, men should have tragedy too.  If male Shep's female LI died unavoidably, they'd be fine with Thane's death.

 

The OP's argument has become increasingly muddled due to the many voices expression their varied opinions on the subject.  All I can say is I'm increasingly confused as to what folks want... which is probably because everyone wants something different. 


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#888
berelinde

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To sum it up, whitless256, people are saying "It's probably pointless to ask you to stop making tragic endings for romances, but if you absolutely must have them end in tears, spread them around. Don't always target the same group."


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#889
Ryzaki

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But then in the next breath they'll say they're just fine with tragedy, but not THAT tragedy, and oh by the way, men should have tragedy too.  If male Shep's female LI died unavoidably, they'd be fine with Thane's death.

 

It's a lot easier to deal with tragic romances when you don't feel alone really. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that. If most of the romances period were drama laden unavoidable tragedy fests this thread wouldn't be asking for fewer heartbreak romances for women (probably just fewer in general).



#890
Zobert

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I'm new to posting but a long time reader.  People on this forum are a little too sensitive in general.  Unless people are extremely careful about every single word used to make a complaint people will pick it apart and take it the wrong way.

 

It's just a forum about a game, not a job interview.  Can't we all just assume that most people in this world are good, nice people?  There are billions of us out there, crime is small compared to the population, and most of us get along.

 

I think all of us on this forum are probably really good people with no intention to offend or hurt others.



#891
whitless256

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To sum it up, whitless256, people are saying "It's probably pointless to ask you to stop making tragic endings for romances, but if you absolutely must have them end in tears, spread them around. Don't always target the same group."

 

That seems to be the OP's point, which I agree with.  But I just wanted to point out that a lot of people have latched on to her point and twisted it into something much more ridiculous.  A LOT of people have come into this thread asking for no tragic romances at all, which has made it harder for the OP and those that agree with her to argue their point.

 

It's a lot easier to deal with tragic romances when you don't feel alone really. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that. If most of the romances period were drama laden unavoidable tragedy fests this thread wouldn't be asking for fewer heartbreak romances for women (probably just fewer in general).

 

What's so hard to understand is that a lot of people seem to be contradicting that point quite often.  Generally, when people have come back to respond to the posts of folks who feel that men HAVE had tragic romances or that women's romances aren't that tragic, they've drifted into the argument that they don't want tragedy at all anymore.  It's turned into a "my heartbreak is worse than your heartbreak" kind of ridiculous competition, which has most often ended with the people in support of the OP saying they don't want ANY tragedy or that the men haven't suffered enough and they should suffer more.

 

I don't think anyone can come in here and claim these arguments haven't been made and that they haven't muddled the point beyond repair.  I've been attacked by several people when making the point that Bioware isn't going to stop writing drama and would more likely make more of it to make things even than make less of it.



#892
TevinterSupremacist

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I care what others get to play because I'm a caring person!  ;)

Seriously, I played the Solas romance inquisition, which is pretty much the most tragic thing ever. It broke my heart, and it hurt like hell, and I wouldn't change any of it for the world. Because it was a great storyline, and involved me more in the game world in a massive way. It really did enhance the experience for me. I imagine a lot of people were more involved in origins because of the Morrigan romance. Why would I NOT want lots of other people to experience things like this? The more people who get to enjoy these things the better!

 

If my argument was quota based, rather than inspiration based, I would be demanding every game have x number of y feature for z demographic and they could never do anything different. Every post I've made in this thread has been arguing for a GENERAL equality in these things. Sometimes women will be worse off, sometimes men. If the writers did this, then things would be equal across the series. eg. I think men had the better experience in origins due to Morrigan, and women in inquisition due to Solas. That's both fine.

It's okay that you care for others. And also, not necessary, they can ask for things they want, if they want to, you don't have to do it for them. We're all adults here.

 

And no, I find that even arguing for GENERAL equality in these things creates quota based implications. It basically means that if the first couple of installments in a game series treat romances aimed at one sex one way, by the third writers ''are encouraged to feel inclined'' *vomit* to consider alternating the flow of drama/happiness/whatever only for the sake of ballance.



#893
Ryzaki

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What's so hard to understand is that a lot of people seem to be contradicting that point quite often.  Generally, when people have come back to respond to the posts of folks who feel that men HAVE had tragic romances or that women's romances aren't that tragic, they've drifted into the argument that they don't want tragedy at all anymore.  It's turned into a "my heartbreak is worse than your heartbreak" kind of ridiculous competition, which has most often ended with the people in support of the OP saying they don't want ANY tragedy or that the men haven't suffered enough and they should suffer more.

 

I don't think anyone can come in here and claim these arguments haven't been made and that they haven't muddled the point beyond repair.  I've been attacked by several people when making the point that Bioware isn't going to stop writing drama and would more likely make more of it to make things even than make less of it.

 

We're not a hivemind obviously some don't want tragedy at all.

 

It really only became that kind of ridiculous competition because the "but the heartbreak isn't really heartbreak"

 

No we can't. As for being attacked that sucks. Ignore them. This whole thread was just about asking BW not to keep dogpiling all their tragedy on female PCs as they tend to do because it's gotten really freaking old for many of us.


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#894
wildannie

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To sum it up, whitless256, people are saying "It's probably pointless to ask you to stop making tragic endings for romances, but if you absolutely must have them end in tears, spread them around. Don't always target the same group."

 

This!

 

I do think what also muddies things is  that our definition of tragic varies a lot.  The only 'tragedies' I have a massive problem with are Jacob and Thane. I absolutely did want Thane to survive ME3 and I don't think that in a universe where they can cure DEAD, getting a viable candidate a lung transplant needed to be such a big ask, especially in light of his huge attitude shift towards wanting to live when romanced.  Having Jacob get someone else pregnant is utterly mind boggling to me, I don't know who could have thought that was a good idea!  

It is the lack of any choice in these outcomes that is the biggest tragedy for me.  If Solas ends up in this kind of scenario in DLC, it will become the bad kind of tragedy rather than the good one it currently is.

 

The other romances mentioned (Alistair, Blackwall, Anders) I consider to be more like drama, than tragedy and I don't have a problem with any of them, although Anders is close - we really should have been able to dissuade him, with some other nutter blowing up the Chantry instead.

 

But yeah,  I don't think there would be many complaining if all LIs could have some kind of happy ending, so long as it was sometimes really hard to achieve, with a heavy cost.


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#895
berelinde

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This whole thread was just about asking BW not to keep dogpiling all their tragedy on female PCs as they tend to do because it's gotten really freaking old for many of us.

To be fair, I would say "dogpiling all their tragedy on PCs who prefer males" since the gay male romances end in tragedy as often as the straight female romances do, but yeah. Straight female or gay male, if your protagonist loves a man, it's safe to say that it's going to end in tears.



#896
Abyss108

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It's okay that you care for others. And also, not necessary, they can ask for things they want, if they want to, you don't have to do it for them. We're all adults here.

 

And no, I find that even arguing for GENERAL equality in these things creates quota based implications. It basically means that if the first couple of installments in a game series treat romances aimed at one sex one way, by the third writers ''are encouraged to feel inclined'' *vomit* to consider alternating the flow of drama/happiness/whatever only for the sake of ballance.

 

I'm sure they can ask for themselves, never said they couldn't. That doesn't mean I can't also give my opinion on what will make the game better for everyone. They are free to disagree with me if they want.

 

I think I have a lot more faith in the writing team than you do. ASKING for Bioware to consider writing something different, is not going to lead to them enforcing implied quotas. 

 

I'm willing to bet money that Bioware has not written more tragic romances for women than men on purpose. They likely haven't even noticed. But there has been that trend. Making Bioware aware of something they have done subconsciously gives them the opportunity to consider whether that's something they intended. If so, it's their choice if they want to change it or not. But they can't make that choice if they're not aware of it.


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#897
Sylvianus

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It's a lot easier to deal with tragic romances when you don't feel alone really. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that. If most of the romances period were drama laden unavoidable tragedy fests this thread wouldn't be asking for fewer heartbreak romances for women (probably just fewer in general).

 

That's actually hard to understand. It is a weird way of thinking. I never cared what the straight female might get, ( as long as the content is the same quality ) why would I ? If some things bother me with the female romances for males, I don't see the need to point out female straight gamers who have done nothing to me, who aren't even concerned by my complaints. I'm just going to complain to bioware to give me something else. If female straight gamers are happy with their romances, it's their business, why would I ask to affect their content because I am unhappy with mine ? ( Don't get me wrong, I do want heartbreak romances for straight males, but on the principle, I can't help but roll my eyes. Boooooooh straight males got what I want, give them what I got at least, I want the same, and I should be happier at least ) 

 

Currently, I am annoyed with the lack of variety for male straight gamers, and it never came to my mind to look at what the female straight gamers got to compare things. I am just going to give my feedback to Bioware when it will be time to do it. Just " please Bioware give us to straight males variety next time  "  and that's it. 

 

There is a trend with female romances ? Why not then, " please Bioware be careful, there is a trend, and here why ? "  Why it has to be about how we are victims and straight males got nothing ? 

 

This is pretty much what I read in this thread sometimes, while I admit that some posters fortunately express better what this thread is asking and what is the issue. 

 

______

 

Now, I don't get the reactions about heartbreak romances and how it should mean " make them suffer ", It's a different story telling that some might like or not. As long as there is variety in the game ( whether for straight males or straight females ) , again, I don't see the issue. 

 

As for DA:I, straight females got two sweet romances like every demographic in the end. They have four romances, that's quite a lot in one game, it shouldn't be expected to have the same things. 


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#898
Abyss108

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I think a lot of people who want tragic romances for male characters so they "will suffer", don't mean that in a BAD way. Tragedy is fun. It's might hurt, but if people didn't enjoy it, it wouldn't be a massive genre. 

 

Solas romance == maximum tragedy == wouldn't trade it for the world

 

I don't think anyone is arguing for giving male players tragic romances so they won't enjoy themselves. 



#899
wildannie

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I think a lot of people who want tragic romances for male characters so they "will suffer", don't mean that in a BAD way. Tragedy is fun. It's might hurt, but if people didn't enjoy it, it wouldn't be a massive genre. 

 

Solas romance == maximum tragedy == wouldn't trade it for the world

 

I don't think anyone is arguing for giving male players tragic romances so they won't enjoy themselves. 

I don't find tragedy fun at all 


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#900
Abyss108

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I don't find tragedy fun at all 

 

Some people do! :)

Which is why a nice mix of different things is the best!


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