1109 réponses à ce sujet

[whitless256]

Because you're interfering with the story to fit your own personal desires? The story does not exist just for you.

 

How do you not see this as the same as people saying they want female bombshells for LIs? You both want to interfere with the artist's creative process. Please. No.

 

You act as if Gaider writes straight female LI's to break people's hearts. That he holds some kind of scale to make sure that females get the most dramatic romances. Please. That's not how writing works. 

 

If it turns out in the next game that female LI's tend to be more vanilla, it will be because it serves the character and the story, not because of what you want.

 

While I don't quite agree with all of this, you actually reminded me of a good point I wanted to bring up.

 

I think it's more important to me that, whatever happens, the romance serve the character more than the person beind the PC.  I don't want a love interest to do things outside of their character just to be sure that I get a happy ending.  Solas' romance is perfectly in keeping with his character, and this is what we've been told from the get go.  In fact, there was not even going to BE a Solas romance until the public showed a serious interest for it.  So it was written in to appeal to the fans that wanted it.  However, I would have been so disappointed had the amazing character that is Solas been altered to be a happy ending romance just because people wanted to romance him.  It was in keeping with his character, which is a very integral character to the main plot. 

 

In fact, the tragic romances that most people are complaining about are in keeping with the characters involved.  I like that characters are written as charaters first and love interests second.  I'd rather someone say," okay we have this great character, now what would he do if he fell in love?" than "okay we have this character we need to make a happy love ending for, how do we write his plot around that?" 

 

I hope that makes sense, cause it was hard to put into words.

[AryBoBary]

I just popped in here to lend my support to this movement.  :*

[SamanthaJ]

While I don't quite agree with all of this, you actually reminded me of a good point I wanted to bring up.

 

I think it's more important to me that, whatever happens, the romance serve the character more than the person beind the PC.  I don't want a love interest to do things outside of their character just to be sure that I get a happy ending.  Solas' romance is perfectly in keeping with his character, and this is what we've been told from the get go.  In fact, there was not even going to BE a Solas romance until the public showed a serious interest for it.  So it was written in to appeal to the fans that wanted it.  However, I would have been so disappointed had the amazing character that is Solas been altered to be a happy ending romance just because people wanted to romance him.  It was in keeping with his character, which is a very integral character to the main plot. 

 

In fact, the tragic romances that most people are complaining about are in keeping with the characters involved.  I like that characters are written as charaters first and love interests second.  I'd rather someone say," okay we have this great character, now what would he do if he fell in love?" than "okay we have this character we need to make a happy love ending for, how do we write his plot around that?" 

 

I hope that makes sense, cause it was hard to put into words.

I don't think that's true? They added in that romance because they had extra development time and decided to include non-human races as playable. Was Solas even an announced character when they decided to include the romance in the game?

[whitless256]

I don't think that's true? They added in that romance because they had extra development time and decided to include non-human races as playable. Was Solas even an announced character when they decided to include the romance in the game?

 

I could be wrong on this.  So much gets spouted on the forums like it's truth, it's hard to keep track of how things actually happened.

 

But still, doesn't alter my core point.  I wouldn't want them to change him so that he wouldn't leave my character.  It would ruin him as a character.

[Sylvianus]

This is amusing only because Gaider wrote love interests for males in DAI. Cassandra has a nice ending, right? What about Dorian? He was going to hang around for a bit with his BFF the Inquisitor at the end of my first playthrough. What's he do for a romance?

 

Cassandra dumps the inquisitor to become divine, no matter how he feels about it. I don't see your nice ending. They 'll break up once she becomes the next divine. Unless you can explain me. 

[Uirebhiril]

I think you're basically hitting the point I was trying to make.  It's not the black and white issue that a lot of people are trying to make it.   It's very hard to spread the tragedy around when how we all define tragedy is so very different.  To me, having someone I love make me chose between them and my core beliefs would break my heart and result in inevitable heartbreak.  If the person I love couldn't love ALL of me, I wouldn't want to be with them, and that would be tragic and painful. 

 

 

Yes, and I agree with you. It has the potential to be very painful for many individuals. But there is still the option to choose. Some are more than happy to throw off Dalish trappings and give it up anyway, lover or no. Others, not so much. And still others might realize that their character wakes up to see how deep Sera's flaws and fears run, and might find the issue of Dalish beliefs just a small symptom of an otherwise larger issue. As I said, good options for roleplay and choices that let you decide the outcome. More or less.

 

Not all romances or even friendship decisions can be that way, I know. And for some characters just being in love will not change things. Alistair (probably) still dumps you, Solas always leaves, Anders always blows up the chantry, etc. The story has to be told, but gosh if there aren't a lot of inevitably bad ones for the girls to handle.

[actionhero112]

This is amusing only because Gaider wrote love interests for males in DAI. Cassandra has a nice ending, right? What about Dorian? He was going to hang around for a bit with his BFF the Inquisitor at the end of my first playthrough. What's he do for a romance?

 

 

I made Cassandra divine my third playthrough on my male mage, so she broke up with my butt right quick. I liked that ending though, I like that both the inquisitor and Cassandra chose duty over a romantic infatuation. It was poetic in its own way. 

 

But to hear people talk about the Cassandra romance, it's like there is no possibility for heartbreak. 

 

But hey it has nothing on the Origin's Leliana romance. I was 17 when Origins came out and a little romantically green, and when Morrigan gave the ultimatum of making a baby with her or dying, I was almost physically ill. I chose the sacrifice ending, I couldn't do it. 

 

It's not like male romances are a walk in the park either. 

[whitless256]

Yes, and I agree with you. It has the potential to be very painful for many individuals. But there is still the option to choose. Some are more than happy to throw off Dalish trappings and give it up anyway, lover or no. Others, not so much. And still others might realize that their character wakes up to see how deep Sera's flaws and fears run, and might find the issue of Dalish beliefs just a small symptom of an otherwise larger issue. As I said, good options for roleplay and choices that let you decide the outcome. More or less.

 

Not all romances or even friendship decisions can be that way, I know. And for some characters just being in love will not change things. Alistair (probably) still dumps you, Solas always leaves, Anders always blows up the chantry, etc. The story has to be told, but gosh if there aren't a lot of inevitably bad ones for the girls to handle.

 

Where's the option to choose?  She always asks you to do this, no matter what you do. There are no dialogue choices earlier in the romance to make her more accepting of your Dalish views nor is there a way to culminate the romance without her asking this of you.  It's unavoidable and I have no choice in the matter. 

 

And Alistair doesn't dump you.  You can remain as his mistress.  He just doesn't MARRY you.   You can choose.  In the same way you can choose how much Sera's unavoidable dialogue option bothers you, you can choose how Alistair wanting you to be his mistress instead of his wife bothers you.  There's way too much perspective involved to say that one person's pain is less than another's.   Sera's unavoidable dialogue, to me, is more relationship damning than Alistair's.

[Felya87]

How sad that people who enjoy dramatics endings, even in relationships, can't even make the little effort to open their mind about how a story can end in differents ways, even happiest ones.

 

As always, I see those who like drama declaring a happish/not left behind/satisfating ending being "the ruin of the character".

Really, what? There are so many way to have a more happier note for a story without having to go to the depressing route, that cannot be counted. The only limit is imagination.

 

And people here ask for a CHANCE to have a happier note. Having a chance for a different outcome doesn't take away the other. That is what the mayority of the people here say when talking about not having forced depressive endings for a relationship.

[Ryzaki]

?

 

Both Vivienne and Hardened/Unhardened Leliana can become divine over Cassandra.

 

It's hardly unavoidable.

[Sylvianus]

I made Cassandra divine my third playthrough on my male mage, so she broke up with my butt right quick. I liked that ending though, I like that both the inquisitor and Cassandra chose duty over a romantic infatuation. It was poetic in its own way. 

 

But to hear people talk about the Cassandra romance, it's like there is no possibility for heartbreak. 

 

 

That's because some of them absolutely need to believe that only straight women had that. They talk about the dlc for Morrigan, but they forget that this dlc came maybe one year after origins and many didn't expect the possibility to be with Morrigan again. And we didn't even know what happened, where they were, it it was dangerous in the eluvians or not, if it wasn't a trick. 

 

 I said that the romance with Morrigan at that time was the best ever when I finished Origins, while it did break my heart, before the witch hunt. Morrigan truly pissed me off at the end of the game, but after, I thought, wow, thank you david gaider to slap me in my face with this romance. 

 

I didn't need this dlc to be happy with this romance.

 

Also, for Cassandra, I told her that I didn't want her to be the next divine, she disapproved me  and argued every single time I did that, I also supported Leliana, and she disapproved me again. But, no, no matter what I did to avoid that crap, she became divine because it isn't for me to decide, and I had a bad taste in my mouth.

 

It's disapointing, because we don't even have the heart broken option after she says that she wants to become divine, against your will. 

[whitless256]

How sad that people who enjoy dramatics endings, even in relationships, can't even make the little effort to open their mind about how a story can end in differents ways, even happiest ones.

 

As always, I see those who like drama declaring a happish/not left behind/satisfating ending being "the ruin of the character".

Really, what? There are so many way to have a more happier note for a story without having to go to the depressing route, that cannot be counted. The only limit is imagination.

 

And people here ask for a CHANCE to have a happier note. Having a chance for a different outcome doesn't take away the other. That is what the mayority of the people here say when talking about not having forced depressive endings for a relationship.

 

How would you write a "satisfying" ending (mind you, I find the current ending to be very satisfying) to the Solas romance that wouldn't compromise the character?

[whitless256]

That's because some of them absolutely need to believe that only straight women had that. They talk about the dlc for Morrigan, but they forget that this dlc came maybe one year after origins and many didn't expect the possibility to be with Morrigan again. And we didn't even know what happened, where they were, it it was dangerous in the eluvians or not, if it wasn't a trick. 

 

 I said that the romance with Morrigan at that time was the best ever when I finished Origins, while it did break my heart, before the witch hunt. Morrigan truly pissed me off at the end of the game, but after, I thought, wow, thank you david gaider to slap me in my face with this romance. 

 

So much THIS.   I didn't know that my Warden's romance with Morrigan ended happily until I imported that game to DAI and talked to Morrigan in the garden!  So for the past many years, I was left not knowing what my Warden's fate was, if he ever even met his son, or if he and Morrigan even survived passing through the eluvien. 

[actionhero112]

?

 

Both Vivienne and Hardened/Unhardened Leliana can become divine over Cassandra.

 

It's hardly unavoidable.

 

You're right. All I have to do is not be supportive of my LI and the clear best Divine. 

 

At least you can always still be with Alistair if you harden him and make him king. 

 

But see, I don't want this to change, because it's what makes Dragon Age, Dragon Age. I want to preserve the integrity of these characters and the creation process behind them. 

[Uirebhiril]

I made Cassandra divine my third playthrough on my male mage, so she broke up with my butt right quick. I liked that ending though, I like that both the inquisitor and Cassandra chose duty over a romantic infatuation. It was poetic in its own way. 

 

But to hear people talk about the Cassandra romance, it's like there is no possibility for heartbreak. 

 

But hey it has nothing on the Origin's Leliana romance. I was 17 when Origins came out and a little romantically green, and when Morrigan gave the ultimatum of making a baby with her or dying, I was almost physically ill. I chose the sacrifice ending, I couldn't do it. 

 

It's not like male romances are a walk in the park either. 

 

I understand. I didn't do the DR my first playthrough either, because just NO. I only chose to do it once just to see the outcome. That and the character in question was male and did it himself. He romanced Morrigan, so pfft, as far as he was concerned.

 

With Cassandra, yes, I heard she leaves if she is made Divine... but that isn't an inevitable outcome. She doesn't woo you and love you for the course of the game and then, no matter what you say or do, run off to be the next holy lady. Choices you make can alter that outcome. That is again the point of this thread. The inevitable time in female romances where the love interest divests himself of the relationship for Reasons. Before long the exact formula necessary to make someone else Divine will appear and anyone that doesn't want to lose Cassandra can use it to keep her.

 

Where's the option to choose?  She always asks you to do this, no matter what you do. There are no dialogue choices earlier in the romance to make her more accepting of your Dalish views nor is there a way to culminate the romance without her asking this of you.  It's unavoidable and I have no choice in the matter. 

 

 

There's no option with her to argue the beliefs? That's too bad. Even if it did end in a breakup that would have been nice flavor. There is still some choice there... change who you are for her, or lose her and realize who you really are. I'm guessing the pain and heartbreak comes from realizing she doesn't truly love you for who you are after all?

 

When I was in that situation once, years ago, my friend said it best to me: "Good riddance." Not trying to make light of the situation, mind you.

 

Also Alistair will dump you if you didn't harden him. You can't remain his mistress even if you were all right with that.

[Ryzaki]

You're right. All I have to do is not be supportive of my LI and the clear best Divine. 

 

At least you can always still be with Alistair if you harden him and make him king. 

 

But see, I don't want this to change, because it's what makes Dragon Age, Dragon Age. I want to preserve the integrity of these characters and the creation process behind them. 

 

Clear best divine really depends on who's talking.

 

After making him sleep with Morrigan yeah. (Also hardening takes place in one conversation with one really odd sounding choice. At least having Cass not be divine isn't so easily missed).

 

Which is great. I just rather more of those characters to be females romancing male PCs instead of the reverse. The characters they've already written are over and done with as you say. I'm simply saying what I'd like to see in the future.

 

If not for the additional romances in this game I'd been stuck with Bull (who patronizingly goes he knows what you need I like him but still wtf) and Blackwall (mr. Liar McGee with child killing to boot). That'd blown.

[Shari'El]

Where's the option to choose?  She always asks you to do this, no matter what you do. There are no dialogue choices earlier in the romance to make her more accepting of your Dalish views nor is there a way to culminate the romance without her asking this of you.  It's unavoidable and I have no choice in the matter. 

 

And Alistair doesn't dump you.  You can remain as his mistress.  He just doesn't MARRY you.   You can choose.  In the same way you can choose how much Sera's unavoidable dialogue option bothers you, you can choose how Alistair wanting you to be his mistress instead of his wife bothers you.  There's way too much perspective involved to say that one person's pain is less than another's.   Sera's unavoidable dialogue, to me, is more relationship damning than Alistair's.

 

But for Alistair's relatively happy ending we need him to sleep with Morrigan to have a god baby, that's.. A bit.. Unhappy.

Plus, you can be Alistair's mistress only if you harden him (something lots of people miss in the first run if they haven't done it with a walkthrough), and - as said - if you really oppose the mistress idea you can have him be a Gray Warden...

 

Spoiler

So you'll have to pick between him and your Hawke in the fade

 

It's been widely discussed in this thread, it more than being his mistress or not.

It's easy to get a bad ending with him.

 

As for Sera... You can get a good ending with no conflict with any female that isn't an elf, plus! If you romance Sera as an elf, she'll fall for a non-"elfy" elf, and you know what you are up against from the beginning. Also, Sera presents you a choice. If you get to the part when Alistair's the king and you agree to be his mistress but he wasn't hardened then you won't get ANY choice whether or not you want to continue the relationship.

[SamanthaJ]

How would you write a "satisfying" ending (mind you, I find the current ending to be very satisfying) to the Solas romance that wouldn't compromise the character?

I don't find the ending satisfying because there is no closure. I know who Solas is, but Lavellan doesn't. I think there should at least be DLC similar to Morrigan's where the Inquisitor gets answers (I'm sure those that didn't romance him want some answers as well). Actually, I think the Inquisitor is the best person to deal with Solas's future actions anyways, but who knows if that'll happen if it extends into the next game. Even if it isn't possible for a happy ending I'd at least like the Inquisitor to find out the truth. I'd still at least like the opportunity for a "walk into the Eluvian ending" like Morrigan's, though...

 

For this romance I haven't quite given up on it yet since it does feel like it completely ended based on when the lock in happens and the fact that they have done conclusions in DLC before (again, Morrigan)

 

And if the Inquisitor absolutely cannot deal with the Solas situation then perhaps, supposing he survives the events of whatever he's planning and we aren't railroaded into killing him, he at least implies that there could be a future for him and Lavellan? I don't think it would compromise the character if he saw to his goals first and then decided to be with Quzzy. Then again this would all depend on how his goals went etc.

[phaonica]

I like that characters are written as charaters first and love interests second.  I'd rather someone say," okay we have this great character, now what would he do if he fell in love?" than "okay we have this character we need to make a happy love ending for, how do we write his plot around that?" 

 

I agree. The characters are more interesting when they have a reason to exist other than to be a love interest.

 

I guess I haven't played enough Bioware romances to have been burned out on the tragic aspects of them. Yeah, it's nice when the relationships work out, but sometimes they don't, and that can be an interesting story, too. There *are* options to have a playthrough where you get a happy ending, just not with certain characters. If you want a happy ending, romance a different character.

[Sylvianus]

?

 

Both Vivienne and Hardened/Unhardened Leliana can become divine over Cassandra.

 

It's hardly unavoidable.

 

 

You need to follow precisely some things to have them as divine. Especially Vivienne. That's quite dumb not to follow what you or your character believe in just because you absolutely need to be with your LI. It isn't even about how your choices could affect your Li, but how your choices affect the world, which has normally nothing to do with your romance.

[Ryzaki]

You need to follow precisely some things to have them as divine. Especially Vivienne. That's quite dumb not to follow what you or your character believe in just because you absolutely need to be with your Li. 

 

Vivienne isn't Cass' only alternative. Leliana is more lenient in her requirements. (It's hardening or softening her that becomes a pain). Also that's just it you have a choice. You can have a completely drama free romance there's no unavoidable hurdle. Cass isn't gonna bust out the "I'm becoming divine." unless your choices lead to that. If all the drama worked like that I'd be fine with it.

 

If you could avoid most of Alistair's drama by not making him king? YAY but you can't. You get smacked with the DR even if you avoid the king drama and then in DAI you get smacked with him or Hawke.

 

You can avoid the Blackwall screwing you and leaving you drama but you're still stuck with the lied to you all along drama (and he still ditches he just doesn't leave you butt naked in a barn which...improvement).

[RynJ]

So much THIS.   I didn't know that my Warden's romance with Morrigan ended happily until I imported that game to DAI and talked to Morrigan in the garden!  So for the past many years, I was left not knowing what my Warden's fate was, if he ever even met his son, or if he and Morrigan even survived passing through the eluvien. 

 

You're comparing a story that ended happily eventually to romances that have an unavoidable sad ending that will never change? You thinking that the Morrigan romance would end badly is negated by the fact that it didn't. It, in fact, has one of the most satisfying BioWare romance endings ever. The heartbreak was fixed and the ending happy, so this example really doesn't count.

 

The point isn't that we want to change the characters. We're questioning why it is that only the male romance options have the story trajectories that end in heartbreak. These aren't real people and they and their romances are written with intent. You can't really say that it would have been impossible, for example, to make Thane's romance end happily or to not have Jacob cheat on you. It would not have been wildly out of character or anything like that.

[Dakota Strider]

I know people keep talking about the Witch Hunt DLC as what made the Morrigan romance great.  But I am another of those that thought the romance was great, just the way it ended in Origins.  You are at the after-killing-the-Archdemon-Party, and tell your buddy Alistair that you plan to chase after Morrigan.  Then, in the epilogue, you are told how through the magical ring Morrigan had given you, you get the sense how she regrets her decision leaving you.  That's it.  It was a great story at that point already, and it was definitely tragic.  Did not expect a DLC, but was hoping that it would be brought up again in DA2. (Of course, that didn't happen.)

 

And when the DLC came out, the time the Warden actually got to spend with Morrigan, took less than a couple minutes.  But it was a "happily ever after".  However, many people bought the DLC, not because they wanted to reunite with Morrigan, but they wanted to track her down, and try to either kill or capture her, for whatever convoluted reason they came up with for hating her.  So, the DLC had people willing to buy it for more than one reason.

 

Would a DLC for Solas sell so well?  Personally, it did not bother me at all that he left after the last battle.  I was on good terms with him, but I am guessing he only told his secrets to his LI?  Because the epilogue that I received after the credits, was cool for me as a player, but my Inquisitor had no idea of that happening.

[Ryzaki]

Actually I want to chase Solas down so he can give me my stuff back.

 

Damn thief.

[actionhero112]

Clear best divine really depends on who's talking.

 

After making him sleep with Morrigan yeah. (Also hardening takes place in one conversation with one really odd sounding choice. At least having Cass not be divine isn't so easily missed).

 

Which is great. I just rather more of those characters to be females romancing male PCs instead of the reverse. The characters they've already written are over and done with as you say. I'm simply saying what I'd like to see in the future.

 

If not for the additional romances in this game I'd been stuck with Bull (who patronizingly goes he knows what you need I like him but still wtf) and Blackwall (mr. Liar McGee with child killing to boot). That'd blown.

 

 I'd much rather be the one forced to sleep with Morrigan to be with Leliana, or have Morrigan leave me and take my child with me. It's not like the Morrigan ring ending is any easier to acquire and has numerous bugs surrounding it. 

 

Oh and let's not talk about the Zevran romance ending for a gay man. *wretch*

 

Blackwall is an amazing romance. He exiled himself from society for what he did, he's made up for what he's done a million times over. He still went back to face his demons beyond that. He's a man of incredible strength and character. 

 

But tell me how Cullen pushing for annulling the entire ferelden circle makes him better than Blackwall. Or shall we talk of Zevran who has killed callously for money and doesn't even regret it. Or should we talk of the inquisitor whose can be anything from a spy to a criminal. We condemn what Blackwall did because he shows remorse and admits it was wrong. But it's hardly the worst thing done by a companion or even player character in the Dragon Age universe. 

 

You can hate Blackwall for what he did. I love him for what he is. 

 

Bottom line I think that romances shouldn't be a priority. Character first. If they removed Blackwall's background and made him just a standard Grey Warden, just so people could feel good about the romance, I'd be disappointed.