50 réponses à ce sujet

[SNascimento]

No original trilogy character should appear in the next Mass Effect. 

[Rusted Cage]

Meh. I begrudgingly accept this to be true. They were vague enough with time to allow it as a possibility, I guess. Meh. I still don't see it as reasonable though. Hunted by assassins, seeking protection, wounded... lets use this time to explore the citadel and fantasize about sushi joints. I'll concede that we don't know for sure the passage of time but I'd argue that its it at least implies the events of the comic lead up to her being out at the wards waiting for the Shadow Broker's men.  In the very least it doesn't seem consistent with the peril she was in at the time to have her sight-seeing on the citadel.

 

Also, AH HA! I found the link. Like an idiot I never thought to look for "Tali Sushi" in youtube. I was looking for "Tali Citadel chat" and ect. I'm such a dolt sometimes. Enjoy!

 

If you're an idiot then I am too because I didn't use that as a search term either

 

To be honest I'm not satisfied with that "passage of time" interpretation either, just pointing out there is room for movement. Tali's thoughts and emotions during any time between meeting Dr Michel and meeting Fist's thugs probably wouldn't be that lighthearted. Her friend was just murdered and she was nearly killed too, she's in a hostile place, in possession of a huge secret and has to watch over her shoulder the entire time too. It's a wonder she doesn't really mention these things, makes me admire her strength in a way.
 

I am not entirely sure I agree that the Citadel scene with Fleet and Flotilla damages the ME2 romance.  Even within the context of just ME1 and ME2 there should have been some alarm bells that this may have been a prolonged adolescent crush on the part of Tali, or even the possibility that she was looking for a replacement for her father (which isn't exactly unique among LI's through the series).  She deflects with a bit of sarcasm, but recall she practically spells it out for Shepard with the "young girl rescued by a dashing commander" line.

 

 

Seeing the relationship from this perspective puts a new spin on things doesn't it? I wonder if Shepard realises that the house on the homeworld he promised Tali might soon be occupied by Tali's latest crush?

 

Are you sure she's 25, Valmar?

[Valmar]

Even within the context of just ME1 and ME2 there should have been some alarm bells that this may have been a prolonged adolescent crush on the part of Tali, or even the possibility that she was looking for a replacement for her father (which isn't exactly unique among LI's through the series).  She deflects with a bit of sarcasm, but recall she practically spells it out for Shepard with the "young girl rescued by a dashing commander" line.

 

 

Well, yeah, sure, of course there is some of that school-girl crush type deal going on there. I get that. Though still at least in ME2 when she said all that dialogue in her romance it /felt/, to me, that was from the heart. She came across as sincere and it was her wording. It sounded like SHE was expressing her feelings for Shepard. Now in the context of the video it doesn't feel like shes necessarily expressing her feelings but rather rewording lines from her favorite romance. Sure, its the thought that matters and I'm not saying she didn't feel any of that. Only that it does take away from the 'magic' of it all. If someone swoon's you with pretty talk and romantic words but then find out they just were saying stuff they heard from a movie does it not cheapen the impact? That doesn't mean they don't mean everything they say but it just feels less personal and sincere, imo.

 

As you can imagine I'm the type of person to prefer a handwritten card as opposed to just something off the store shelf that has someone's signature added to the end of it. Lol.

 

 

As far as Citadel (or even post Horizon) is concerned, turning Tali into a binge drinker wasn't a bit of writing reserved for Tali.  Recall that Ash is passed out in Starboard Observation.  Why would that be any more in character for Ash than for Tali?  I think this was just a clumsy way to show how much stress had affected the crew.  There were a lot of "head-scratchers" in ME3 with regard to squadmate character development, so it wasn't as if Tali was singled out, she was just used more for comedy relief in her scenes.

 

Ash is always dead for me. Besides that though, I certainly don't think they did her character any justice by making her pass out on the floor drunk, either. Two wrong's don't make a right. When I implied Tali was singled out I meant it in the context of the Citadel party. She get's completely hammered no matter what kind of party you have. I'd also argue that, while both characters get drunk at one point, its more damaging to Tali than it is Ashley. Ashley is at least human - she can 'safely' drink. A quarian getting so drunk that she doesn't remember how she got dressed.... is a drastically bigger deal than Ashley drinking herself to the floor. That doesn't mean I think what they did to Ashley was 'okay', though.

 

 

To be honest I'm not satisfied with that "passage of time" interpretation either, just pointing out there is room for movement. Tali's thoughts and emotions during any time between meeting Dr Michel and meeting Fist's thugs probably wouldn't be that lighthearted. Her friend was just murdered and she was nearly killed too, she's in a hostile place, in possession of a huge secret and has to watch over her shoulder the entire time too. It's a wonder she doesn't really mention these things, makes me admire her strength in a way.

 

So you see my problem. Lol. Like I mentioned before though, due to the way she delivers the dialogue, I'm willing to give it a pass as being her just teasing Shepard.

 

Also, she does mention some of it. Not nearly all that was in the comic, of course, but when you talk her on the Citadel (not dlc) when she's ambassador she mentions some of the stuff to you. Her being mistreated be C-Sec, being shot at by Saren's goons and getting a fever.

 

 

Seeing the relationship from this perspective puts a new spin on things doesn't it? I wonder if Shepard realises that the house on the homeworld he promised Tali might soon be occupied by Tali's latest crush?

 

Pair that perspective with the picture that started this topic. All I can say is that Kal is lucky he's dead or else Shepard might kill him.

 

 

Are you sure she's 25, Valmar?

 

Well, that is the age the wiki's timeline provides.

 

"2161 CE

Tali'Zorah nar Rayya is born."

 

"2183 CE: The Eden Prime War.

The events of Mass Effect occur."

 

"2186 CE

The events of Mass Effect 3 begin."

 

So, based on this, if my toddler-grade math skills (who am I kidding, I use calculator) haven't completely failed me it means Tali was 22 during her pilgrimage and 25 by the end of the trilogy.

 

Yes, I actually looked up dates to determine her age. Yes, I have problems. I wanted to know how valid the complaints were about Shepard being "some old dude with a little girl". Considering that humans live to be around 150 in Mass Effect... Shepard is a really young guy. He's only 31 in ME2, making Tali 24 when they started dating. That isn't a significant gap, imo. Not even a decade. While I'm on about age, it's also interesting to note that really Anderson is pretty young as well. He was 49 at the end of the trilogy. He had roughly a century of life in him so I wouldn't exactly call him an old guy. He wasn't even middle-aged.

[capn233]

Now in the context of the video it doesn't feel like shes necessarily expressing her feelings but rather rewording lines from her favorite romance. Sure, its the thought that matters and I'm not saying she didn't feel any of that.

Yeah but outside of the scene during Citadel DLC, I don't think she uses any line verbatim, and actually most anything that is similar to the small scene of FaF we see in Citadel is pretty generic stuff. I think she is still pretty genuine in ME2 regardless of how you chose to interpret the romance, and regardless of the new information from ME3.
 

Ash is always dead for me. Besides that though, I certainly don't think they did her character any justice by making her pass out on the floor drunk, either. Two wrong's don't make a right. When I implied Tali was singled out I meant it in the context of the Citadel party.

It has been a while since I played the party with Tali LI, but IIRC it isn't a forgone conclusion that she ends up passed out in the bathroom, the last part can have her dancing. Granted, she has some goofy lines about the omni tattoo and the buckles to her suit anyway. As far as getting singled out, Grunt can end up passed out in the shower as well, and Ash is trying to seduce a subordinate depending on how the game goes. Maybe Tali got the most over the top treatment for comedy, but most of Citadel is absurd anyway.  I don't think they singled any character out for continuity of character problems in ME3 though.
 

Ashley is at least human - she can 'safely' drink. A quarian getting so drunk that she doesn't remember how she got dressed.... is a drastically bigger deal than Ashley drinking herself to the floor. That doesn't mean I think what they did to Ashley was 'okay', though.

 

Not so sure it is really any worse than humans drinking, at least as long as she was drinking "dextro" alcohol.

[Valmar]

Yeah but outside of the scene during Citadel DLC, I don't think she uses any line verbatim, and actually most anything that is similar to the small scene of FaF we see in Citadel is pretty generic stuff. I think she is still pretty genuine in ME2 regardless of how you chose to interpret the romance, and regardless of the new information from ME3.

 

Yeah its generic, I'm not accusing her of outright plagiarism when it comes to FaF. I still can't help but see parallels between the romance in the movie, the lines of the actors, the chorus lyrics and the ME2 romance conversations.

 

 

It has been a while since I played the party with Tali LI, but IIRC it isn't a forgone conclusion that she ends up passed out in the bathroom, the last part can have her dancing. Granted, she has some goofy lines about the omni tattoo and the buckles to her suit anyway. As far as getting singled out, Grunt can end up passed out in the shower as well, and Ash is trying to seduce a subordinate depending on how the game goes. Maybe Tali got the most over the top treatment for comedy, but most of Citadel is absurd anyway.  I don't think they singled any character out for continuity of character problems in ME3 though.

 

I may be misunderstanding you but she does get drunk and essentially passes out on the floor no matter how you throw the party. Yes, Grunt can end up passed out in the shower. I have no problem with everyone getting so shitfaced that they wake up naked on Omega. Its the fact that with Tali, and far as I know only Tali, ALWAYS get drunk no matter what you do. It's mandatory. Grunt can end up passed out in the shower, sure, but I'm 95% certain this is only if you serve drinks at the party. Tali gets drunk regardless. I'm not saying she's singled out as the only one who gets drunk and passes out - I'm saying shes singled out because no matter how you play the DLC, if she's invited, she gets completely wasted and ends up passed out in bathroom floor. Omni-tattooooooos.

 

Yes, Citadel is absurd. Fun though, I have to say. I just would had liked it more had my LI not had spoiled the whole thing by becoming the goofy, klutzy drunk for the luls. I wear my bias on my sleeves. Lol.

 

 

 

Not so sure it is really any worse than humans drinking, at least as long as she was drinking "dextro" alcohol.

 

The fact that she has to drink it through three filters and use an emergency induction port should be evidence enough that what she's doing is dangerous. Frankly I'm upset that, no matter what, Shepard actually encourages her to get drunk. Seems incredibly irresponsible to me, but whatever.

 

I have to agree with ol' Javik on this one.

"You are intoxicated. A foolish risk given quarian symbotic physiology."

[capn233]

I may be misunderstanding you but she does get drunk and essentially passes out on the floor no matter how you throw the party. 

 

Well maybe I will load up a save and recheck it, but I think one of the paths through the party ends up with her just dancing near the kitchen in the last phase with Traynor, Garrus, and a couple others.

 

edit:

 

Quiet - Kick It Up! - Dance

 

If you go through that way she does not pass out on the floor.  She will be in the kitchen talking, then upstairs during the awkward conversation between Traynor and EDI, then she will be downstairs dancing in the kitchen until after the photo.  After that it is in bed with Shepard.

[Rusted Cage]

Pair that perspective with the picture that started this topic. All I can say is that Kal is lucky he's dead or else Shepard might kill him.

 

 

 

Well, that is the age the wiki's timeline provides.

 

"2161 CE

Tali'Zorah nar Rayya is born."

 

"2183 CE: The Eden Prime War.

The events of Mass Effect occur."

 

"2186 CE

The events of Mass Effect 3 begin."

 

So, based on this, if my toddler-grade math skills (who am I kidding, I use calculator) haven't completely failed me it means Tali was 22 during her pilgrimage and 25 by the end of the trilogy.

 

Yes, I actually looked up dates to determine her age. Yes, I have problems. I wanted to know how valid the complaints were about Shepard being "some old dude with a little girl". Considering that humans live to be around 150 in Mass Effect... Shepard is a really young guy. He's only 31 in ME2, making Tali 24 when they started dating. That isn't a significant gap, imo. Not even a decade. While I'm on about age, it's also interesting to note that really Anderson is pretty young as well. He was 49 at the end of the trilogy. He had roughly a century of life in him so I wouldn't exactly call him an old guy. He wasn't even middle-aged.

Well Shepard was "mostly dead" so if Tali strayed who can blame her?

 

As for that age, that smells fishy to me. Like it's an oog dev comment or something meant to diffuse a potential age difference issue. Quarians go on their pilgrimage when they are young adults. Who the hell terms 22 as young adult unless the species is much longer lived? In our culture, 18 is the age when you are legally an adult, so young adult implies 16-20 in my book.

 

Are age differences in relationships the next taboo to be broken? I mean, in DA or ME you can have multi-sexual/racial  relationships but it seems the age difference remains. **** it, I say. If both parties are consenting adults whose business is it anyway?

[Valmar]

Well maybe I will load up a save and recheck it, but I think one of the paths through the party ends up with her just dancing near the kitchen in the last phase with Traynor, Garrus, and a couple others.

 

edit:

 

Quiet - Kick It Up! - Dance

 

If you go through that way she does not pass out on the floor.  She will be in the kitchen talking, then upstairs during the awkward conversation between Traynor and EDI, then she will be downstairs dancing in the kitchen until after the photo.  After that it is in bed with Shepard.

 

Interesting. Yet a purely quiet approach gets her hammered on the floor. At any rate I was wrong in my absolute assertion, to my which I apologize and thank you for clarifying my error. She /still/ gets drunk no matter what kind of party you have, though, regardless of the extent of that drunkenness. It's also rather strange that the quiet path is the one that leads to her being a babbling mess on a bathroom floor.

 

 

Well Shepard was "mostly dead" so if Tali strayed who can blame her?

 

As for that age, that smells fishy to me. Like it's an oog dev comment or something meant to diffuse a potential age difference issue. Quarians go on their pilgrimage when they are young adults. Who the hell terms 22 as young adult unless the species is much longer lived? In our culture, 18 is the age when you are legally an adult, so young adult implies 16-20 in my book.

 

Are age differences in relationships the next taboo to be broken? I mean, in DA or ME you can have multi-sexual/racial  relationships but it seems the age difference remains. **** it, I say. If both parties are consenting adults whose business is it anyway?

 

Certainly, I wouldn't blame her. It's unhealthy to not let go. Well, except for Shepard when it comes to Liara. Her inability to let go lead to him being brought back from the dead. Still, generally speaking, unhealthy. Still she claims she's never trusted anyone enough for such activities until Shepard. Which would be a lie if she was already pupped. Besides, given the course between ME2 and ME3 are several months... she'd would had been showing by time. Assuming their biology is similar to ours, anyway.

 

I don't disagree. Though they are an alien species with a very unique culture - our standards may very well not apply. Hell, by Asari standard's Liara is an young adult. It's also possible the young adults, if they are the same age as our relative term for it, do not necessarily leave the fleet until later but officially begin the start of pilgrimage on the ship.

 

"When quarians of the Migrant Fleet reach young adulthood, they must leave their birth ship and find a new crew to accept them as permanent residents." They leave on the pilgrimage to prove their worth to become 'real citizens' of the ship of their choosing. Plus look at the training they go through before leaving. Perhaps the first few years of young-adulthood is spent determining what ship is most promising and getting the required training and implants to survive. They don't just shove their kids out into the galaxy and say "good luck!" afterall so maybe that process takes a little bit of time.

 

Plus Tali is a bit of a special dove since her father is big chief. I imagine her training was even more advanced and special since he expects so much out of her. That could have increased the training time. This is all speculation of course. It might just be a simple case of them pulling dates out of their ass.

 

As for age-taboo, I never really realized it even existed until late in my life in all honesty. My parents have been together for decades and my dad is like nearly twenty years older. I never really thought about the age being an issue, likely due to being raised with it being the 'norm'. Maturity matters more than age, though the two often get confused. Lol.

[Alamar2078]

@Valmar:  if it matters I had the EXACT same reaction you did with the TALI LI in ME2.  For me she's still hands-down the best LI "for me" ... YMMV.  I don't have your experiences with all of the DLC in ME3 but I agree that there are plenty of elements you point out that somehow "cheapens" the whole thing.  Like you I can partially excuse her getting drunk after Miranda gets killed [IF she's killed] but doubling down with that and the Citadel DLC is too much and a mistake for many reasons ... IMHO.

 

Then again with what happens in ME3 I'm glad I didn't have a single Jacob romance in all of ME2.  I ranted in defense of poor Jacob fans [all 3 of them] but I can't imagine my reaction if I'd have been a Jacob shipper.

[Valmar]

Then again with what happens in ME3 I'm glad I didn't have a single Jacob romance in all of ME2.  I ranted in defense of poor Jacob fans [all 3 of them] but I can't imagine my reaction if I'd have been a Jacob shipper.

 

Hell, he wasn't even my LI and I felt the jab. Oh, but Shepard just doesn't understand. The Normandy's his true love. Gee, thanks, say that with my LI literally right there beside me. Jacob is a troll. Believe it.

[Rusted Cage]

I don't disagree. Though they are an alien species with a very unique culture - our standards may very well not apply. Hell, by Asari standard's Liara is an young adult. It's also possible the young adults, if they are the same age as our relative term for it, do not necessarily leave the fleet until later but officially begin the start of pilgrimage on the ship.

 

"When quarians of the Migrant Fleet reach young adulthood, they must leave their birth ship and find a new crew to accept them as permanent residents." They leave on the pilgrimage to prove their worth to become 'real citizens' of the ship of their choosing. Plus look at the training they go through before leaving. Perhaps the first few years of young-adulthood is spent determining what ship is most promising and getting the required training and implants to survive. They don't just shove their kids out into the galaxy and say "good luck!" afterall so maybe that process takes a little bit of time.

 

Plus Tali is a bit of a special dove since her father is big chief. I imagine her training was even more advanced and special since he expects so much out of her. That could have increased the training time. This is all speculation of course. It might just be a simple case of them pulling dates out of their ass.

 

As for age-taboo, I never really realized it even existed until late in my life in all honesty. My parents have been together for decades and my dad is like nearly twenty years older. I never really thought about the age being an issue, likely due to being raised with it being the 'norm'. Maturity matters more than age, though the two often get confused. Lol.

Ha, knew you were going to say that. I understand the term young adult would have a different meaning among the asari but there is no indication the quarians have a life expectancy any different to ours. In fact, couldn't an argument be made for them having a shorter lifespan?

[Valmar]

In a sense, yes. Biologically, form a purely aging stand-point, they seem to live as long as we do. They just have other factors weighing in on them. If they're fortunate enough to live long enough for age to kill them, its roughly the same as us.

 

The point was, ultimately, that the term is rather relative and not necessarily indicative of a set age. There are a lot of social and cultural aspects that go into and if there's one thing the quarians have going for them is their unique culture. They're alien, basically. Best not to think on it too hard and just accept it. Lol.

[in it for the lolz]

[Dubozz]

Robodog cameo > Tali cameo. 

[Rusted Cage]

In a sense, yes. Biologically, form a purely aging stand-point, they seem to live as long as we do. They just have other factors weighing in on them. If they're fortunate enough to live long enough for age to kill them, its roughly the same as us.

 

The point was, ultimately, that the term is rather relative and not necessarily indicative of a set age. There are a lot of social and cultural aspects that go into and if there's one thing the quarians have going for them is their unique culture. They're alien, basically. Best not to think on it too hard and just accept it. Lol.

Ok I'll drop it. 19 would have been a much better age for Tali though

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The characters in the mass effect series were destroyed by bad writing theory. It is time for new characters.

[Mister J]

I'd say bring all of them back. I know that won't happen, but I say it nonetheless.

[von uber]

Blimey, you can see how the romance sub forum got locked.

[Antmarch456]

Nooo~ all the hates on Tali (still prefer Ashley though *shot*)

[Han Shot First]

I'm all for characters from previous games returning in cameos, so long as their appearance makes sense within the story. They shouldn't just appear for the sake of nostalgia. As far as Tali is concerned, running into her while meeting Quarian Admirals aboard the Migrant Fleet...cool. Running into her while on some random mission on a backwater planet...not cool.

[Alamar2078]

@Han:  I think your position is the most reasonable.  If it makes sense [or is even "demanded"] by the story then sure meet anyone that fits.  I would imagine the sequel would be set far enough in the future that we'd only have to worry about Liara, Wrex, or other very long lived species.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I'm all for characters from previous games returning in cameos, so long as their appearance makes sense within the story. They shouldn't just appear for the sake of nostalgia. As far as Tali is concerned, running into her while meeting Quarian Admirals aboard the Migrant Fleet...cool. Running into her while on some random mission on a backwater planet...not cool.

 

No more Illium? AKA the smallest world in the universe?

[Valmar]

I'm all for characters from previous games returning in cameos, so long as their appearance makes sense within the story. They shouldn't just appear for the sake of nostalgia. As far as Tali is concerned, running into her while meeting Quarian Admirals aboard the Migrant Fleet...cool. Running into her while on some random mission on a backwater planet...not cool.

 

Sounds like the start of ME2. Also practically every ME2-squadie mission in ME3. Lol.

[Arcian]

What do you guys think?

She is incredibly overrated for one very simple reason: the sum of her character is being a bridge between Shepard/Player and the quarians. That is literally her single purpose within the story. The only reason she has a fandom as large as she does is because of assfanatics and waifuphags who get off to the idea of their virtual avatars being idolized and desired by moeblobs.

[Valmar]

She is incredibly overrated for one very simple reason: the sum of her character is being a bridge between Shepard/Player and the quarians.

 

One could make the same argument about nearly all the squadmates or probably even characters in general. They nearly all act as a bridge for Shepard in one way or another. Shepard/the player is ultimately the single most important character in the universe within the Mass Effect series with everyone else playing the role of stepping stones leading to the destiny that is The Shepard. Because reasons.

 

The rest of your statement was just offensive insult hurling.