172 réponses à ce sujet

[BartDude52]

@DaemionMoadrin: It's not just the fact that he was rude and remorseless, it was also his smug attitude and sense of entitlement that did it for me. Oh, and the fact that he's clearly evil and manipulative, let's not forget that.

 

Again though as I stated before, I wouldn't normally approve of making some tranquil, but to me someone this evil, manipulative, rude, remorseless, smug, and self-entitled deserves a fitting punishment for his crimes; executing him (which gives him what wants), locking him in prison (which merely delays what he wants), or sending him the Grey Wardens (where he'll probably get what he wants) doesn't do it for me. Making him tranquil is the only fitting punishment in my eyes. Also, from what I've seen, it is very satisfying and enjoyable to see his reaction when he realises he's not going to get the death he wants and is instead going to be made tranquil and lose his connection to the Fade (and his magical abilities, as well). Yes, it's evil, but it's greatly enjoyable to see a pr*ck like that get what he deserves.

 

P.S. Now, I'm not suggesting that we should ever lobotomise someone for a crime in real life - I'd be completely against that. But this is a video game, and I'm not necessarily bound by real-world morality in a game, and on this occasion, for this character specifically, it is very satisfying to effectively do the Dragon Age equivalent of lobotomy. Yes, it's cruel. Yes, it's petty. It's not exactly 'justice', but, by God, it is extremely enjoyable and gratifying.

 

If it had been someone like Alexius or Feynriel that I'd made tranquil I would probably feel really bad about it. But Erimond? I feel no sorrow for him. I should feel bad for allowing him to be made tranquil, but I don't. He completely and utterly deserves it.

[MageTarot]

I didn't get the option in my first playthrough because I was a warrior, but in my second playthrough I'm going to play as a mage and make him tranquil when given the option. 

 

 

Edited because the information I posted here was incorrect. 

 

Nothing to see here - move along.  

[DaemionMoadrin]

To paraphrase Harry Dresden...

"It's a bad idea, but..." or "I normally wouldn't do this, but..." ... you need to stop before the but, because otherwise you make the first step down a slippery slope.

 

Acts like that become easier the more often you do them and it almost never stays a singular occurence. It's one of the ways power corrupts people.

 

Not only that but every violent or disturbing act also hurts yourself. Even if you are only a bystander but definitely if you are involved directly. There's a reason why so many soldiers and police officers have PTSD.

I think an execution is something you can deal with easier than seeing the tranquil husk of the man you knew walk across the courtyard every day.

 

Btw... since people mentioned Cassandra earlier... did you realize the implications? She is not a mage but she was made tranquil. That means it's something you can do to anyone you want, not just mages.

[BartDude52]

@MageTarot: Are you sure? I definitely had the Arcane Knowledge perk when I judged him and I never got the option to make him tranquil.

[MageTarot]

Sometimes I wonder if these threads are part of a social experiment. In one thread we have people who feel slavery is better than being poor and here we have people who think a magical lobotomy is a fitting punishment.

 

Honestly, I'm concerned.

 

Don't be concerned. Everyone plays the game differently. And it's just that to me - a game. If your judgment is not the same as mine I'm not going to think any less of you or your game play. We just agree to disagree and continue.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Don't be concerned. Everyone plays the game differently. And it's just that to me - a game. If your judgment is not the same as mine I'm not going to think any less of you or your game play. We just agree to disagree and continue.

 

Heh, I'm aware. I don't care what people do in games, hell... I've done some really despicable things in some. I just never tried to justify my behaviour with flimsy arguments and excuses.

 

I'd rather see people admit to being bastards in a game because it's cool, fun, awesome or whatever instead of trying to rationalize their decision.

[MageTarot]

@MageTarot: Are you sure? I definitely had the Arcane Knowledge perk when I judged him and I never got the option to make him tranquil.

 

D'oh! you are right - for some reason I thought the hand icon was for arcane knowledge. Turns out it's for the mage class:

 

 

A thousand pardons for the incorrect information.  

[Ruairi46]

 

D'oh! you are right - for some reason I thought the hand icon was for arcane knowledge. Turns out it's for the mage class:

 

 

A thousand pardons for the incorrect information.  

Your crimes are unforgivable. Tranquility with you!

[MageTarot]

Your crimes are unforgivable. Tranquility with you!

Daaaaaaang, you are one tough Inquisitor!!!  Remind me never to get you mad....oops, too late! 

[Lord Raijin]

Sometimes I wonder if these threads are part of a social experiment. In one thread we have people who feel slavery is better than being poor and here we have people who think a magical lobotomy is a fitting punishment.

 

Honestly, I'm concerned.

 

This is a video game, and not real life. Learn the difference. Were dealing with fiction, not reality. You shouldn't judge people base on their opinions over what happens in a video game. Perhaps you might want to go to Dr. Phils web board instead.

 

Anyone who was in the party who found Pharamond (and hasn't since died) knows how to do it too, don't they?

 

Let's see. We have Evangeline and Rhys plus Wynne (Who is now deceased). Adrian was there, but I don't recall her spending that much time with Pharamond unlike Rhys. I don't think Rhys would leak such information out... especially since he change his party from being a libertarian to now being the leader of the Aequitarians. He seems like the peaceful kind. Evangeline seems heavily devoted to Rhys so whatever she knows she wont probably leak out.

[KainD]

Erimond forgot to take proper measures for not being made tranquil. 

[Lord Raijin]

Remember this tranquil in Emprise Du Lion? His job is to get rid of the red lyrium, and to quarantine an area that deems a danger.

Once Erimond has been made tranquil he too can join in getting rid of the lyrium that can hurt people.

[DaemionMoadrin]

This is a video game, and not real life. Learn the difference. Were dealing with fiction, not reality. You shouldn't judge people base on their opinions over what happens in a video game. Perhaps you might want to go to Dr. Phils web board instead.

 

No, really?! This is all fictional? I wish someone told me earlier!

[Milan92]

The rite of tranquility was created for nutjobs like Erimond. Can't say I disagree with anyone who makes him tranquil.

 

Though he would be one of the few people I'd ever made tranquil.

 

Its a really harsh punishment and should only be used on extreme cases.

[DaemionMoadrin]

The rite of tranquility was created for nutjobs like Erimond. Can't say I disagree with anyone who makes him tranquil.

 

Though he would be one of the few people I'd ever made tranquil.

 

Its a really harsh punishment and should only be used on extreme cases.

 

The Rite of Tranquility was created for mages who are too dangerous to themselves, mages who failed their Harrowing or have otherwise proven to not be able to deal with the power of being a mage. It has never been a criminal punishment.

[Milan92]

The Rite of Tranquility was created for mages who are too dangerous to themselves, mages who failed their Harrowing or have otherwise proven to not be able to deal with the power of being a mage. It has never been a criminal punishment.

Punnishment or not, Erimond is too dangerous.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Rite of Tranquility was created for mages who are too dangerous to themselves, mages who failed their Harrowing or have otherwise proven to not be able to deal with the power of being a mage. It has never been a criminal punishment.

Erimond is dangerous, though. The only question is whether or not he'll stop being dangerous with his emotions and powers removed. (Apparently he does, though personally I think it'd be safer to decide he's least dangerous as a mantle ornament.)

[Rannah]

There is no justice in making him tranquil, one could even argue that it's dangerous to leave him alive since it can be reversed...

 

Maybe it is not meant to be justice, but punishment and a message to the world that such crimes what Erimond did will be not tolerated at all. In my opinion, the tranquility is well deserved. I can hardly imagine worse machination than corrupting and using for our own (and master's) benefit a whole orders's willingness of sacrifice, endangering the world's chance of success in case of a new Blight.

In my playthrough, I have chosen this option as well. I may be not a just person, but I think such severe crimes are meant to be punished and make the wicked think and evaluate his actions.  I think justice is not good enough for this kind of person - he need to see the error of his way. In his last moments before tranquility, Erimond may think of the countless lives he sacrificed for his selfish needs. I have found no other options to make him think, just this one from which he fears.

 

Concerning the reverse of tranquility, it is highly possible that the inquisitor does not know that yet.

[Celtic Latino]

To be honest making Erimond tranquil felt like the best punishment. It sounds cruel in theory to strip a person of who he/she was, but I consider a few points:

01. Giving him over to the Wardens or exile doesn't guarantee he faces justice. For all one knows a mishap could happen and he's on the run. Not saying that happens, but putting myself in a situation where I don't know the outcome, that wouldn't feel like the wisest course

02. It isn't so much of Erimond wanting death. Its the question of what comes after. Not going to talk RL beliefs, but in DA its at least somewhat established that spirits go into the Fade. For all I know if he's the same in the Fade as he is in Thedas, he could always create something more disastrous while in the Fade. You know, vengeful spirits and demons and all that?

03. Tranquility strips one of who they are. Erimond is not only unrepentant but a raging madman and a sociopath. He serves Corypheus, like typical comic book/movie cliche, because he's a sneering villain and enjoys the allure of power and control. He has no ounce of mercy or compassion nor does he care what he serves or does. If there's nothing redeeming (unlike Alexius, who can be argued that much of what he did was for Felix), what good is it to allow him to remain as is when what he is happens to be just bad? At least as a tranquil, he serves a function. Also seems the safest route.

Just my thoughts.

[NugHugs]

You want a life devoid of emotions or dreams? No aspirations, no excitement, no desires? That sounds very peaceful. Tranquil. It would be utterly boring and mind numbing to normal living beings but it also makes you okay with it.

 

Cassandra didn't know she was made tranquil and it wasn't for long.

 

Hey, if being tranquil is so great, why isn't everyone clamoring to join them?

 

A person is more than the sum of their knowledge. Emotions and dreams/hopes/goals play an important part. Take that away and the person you know is gone, as good as if they had been killed. In their place someone else appears, looking and sounding like them, but not being them. That's the recipe for a horror flick.

 

Perhaps have a look at people who suffer from brain damage and mental illnesses. Ever seen the reaction of their loved ones when they realize the patient has become a completely different person?

 

And you actually think that's a good thing? Ouch.

 

Perhaps they should reverse tranquility for a few mages and ask for their opinion. I doubt they'd want to go back to being tranquil once they have the choice.

 

That's another point. Tranquil people can't make choices anymore. Without emotions they also do not fear anymore. They lack a sense of self-preservation. Remember the tranquil mage in the Circle Tower in DA:O? Everyone around him turned into abominations, people died gruesome deaths and he didn't run away. He tried to continue with his job like an automaton. A tranquil has less freedom or choices as a child. With half of their humanity gone, they lack the freedom of choice. I'm pretty sure they can't even say no.

I'm sorry, but turning a human into this... that's creepy. It's wrong and it's despicable.

I just don't see how tranquility is worse than death? A person with a mental illness may go through psychological changes that affect their personality, but that doesn't make them any less of who they are because that's all they can be? That just doesn't make sense, if they're no longer themselves, then who could they possibly be? A tranquil is still the same person, they've just undergone changes.

 

With your logic, death and tranquility are essentially the same, they both end the person you knew. Tranquility at least yields useful results.

[MindWeb]

That's not true. In fact ones hes been made tranquil he could be sent to the Grey wardens for live of servitude. He could clean, cook the grey wardens their dinner, enchant their weapons and armor,etc. I don't know about you but that way better,especially from a Tevinter Imperium Magister

 

 

What is wrong with sending a message to the mages that they can be made tranquil, once captured, if they're planning on committing future war crimes against the citizens of Thedas? It's a deterring message if anything else. After what happen to Connor back in Origins any mage of any age can cause significant amount of damage and lost of lives whether it could be intentional or by accident. Erimond is not a mundane.. hes a Magister from the Tevinter Imperium... a mage who became mentally unstable. He was a mental patient with a loaded 12 gauge semiautomatic shotgun.

 

After playing Orgins a half dozen of times I can safely say that, I, as a pro Mage, think the treatment punishment for the mundanes far worst than how the mages are treated. Look at how the Chantry was going to allow Sten to starve to death in a cage, and left for the darkspawn to make a meal out of in Lothering.... Look at Denerim prisons, and how they treat their prisoners... You're butt ass naked and tortured severely to the point where you die. Look at how King Cailan guard/soldiers was going to allow a frighten man to starve in a cell before being executed for deserting. You nearly had to persuaded the guards to give the man food.

 

If you don't think Tranquility is not a form of rehabilitation then explain the back story of a frighten Kirkwall mage named Orana who was brought into the circle http://dragonage.wik...uility_(amulet)

I find it hilarious that you're trying to defend using the RoT when you're profile picture is ANDERS.

[KaiserShep]

Like I said to Terabat the situation between what I've done to Erimond and what happen in Kirkwall is completely different. It's irrelevant to even compare the two considering the fact that Erimond is guilty for committing war crimes against the Grey wardens, and for working with Corypheus (Being a Venatori). He is guilty of summoning Corypheus' dragon (Using magic to do it) to kill the inquisitor, and by doing just that ended up murdering Warden-Commander Clarel. He had demonstrated to me (As a mage inquisitor) that he is not responsible for having the talent of wielding magic.

 

The basic point that I'm making is that from my own Inquisitor's viewpoint, the decision is not really about him at all. He can cackle maniacally until his throat is sore and twirl his mustache until it falls off his face, but none of that matters. The only thing she cares about is the precedent. In that sense, the scope of his crime is not a factor. It doesn't matter if it's a "war crime" or a heinous act against a single victim. And it's also in this sense that I consider the use of the Rite of Tranquility in Kirkwall and its use against Erimond one and the same. My Inquisitor is completely unmoving in the idea that it should be used strictly as an act of mercy to save someone from their magic in very extreme circumstances, and never against anyone else, no matter how severe their crime, because again, it's not about Erimond, it's about all mages. My Inquisitor's own words when taking up the role was that it's not about sending a message, and I'm pretty much applying it to everything, because I find little value in that sort of thing.

 

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
    Foul and corrupt are they
    Who have taken His gift
    And turned it against His children.
    They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
    They shall find no rest in this world
    Or beyond.
    -Transfigurations 1:2

 

While my Inquisitor (even the mage) doesn't give two bronto cheeks about the Chantry, this can be interpreted in any number of ways, especially if RP'ing a mage. I see nothing here that supports the use of the Rite, only a code of moral principles meant to promote discipline, responsibility and humility.

 

 

I'm not against capital punishment, but for the sake of this debate I will talk about it. The pro lifers believes that giving the death penalty is cruel and inhumane and causes pain on an individual, and for that reason they're trying to abolish the death penalty. You strongly disapprove of giving the Rite to this man yet support his execution. Doesn't that support gruesome violence against a fellow human being? Instead of forcing this man to become productive member of society by taking the very essence that is the root of his troubles, you instead would rather spill blood by viciously executing the man by decapitation.

 

Erimond reaction over the decision of making him tranquil seems justified to me. I didn't give him what he wants. Instead I gave him life at the cost of eliminating his magic talents with the side effect that he himself forfeited when he committed his crimes against the people of Thedas.

 

This is basically what it boils down to for me: Erimond is of no significant use in any capacity, is totally unrepentant of his crimes, and any resources used to keep him alive other than what was expended to bring him before the throne is unacceptable. It's the reason why Alexius serves the Inquisition as a researcher, and he gets nothing but the blade. Making him tranquil doesn't create a productive member of society; it creates an automaton to be used by other people, and I won't have it. So the only options I'd ever consider are handing him over to the Wardens to let them have their way with him (which is essentially just a slower more painful death) or chopping his head off myself. Either solution is no skin off Inky's back.

 

I don't care what he wants, and even this is debatable. More than likely he prefers to live, but simply squanders his last moments posturing. It's the same idea behind my Inquisitor telling Corypheus that she's not afraid. Only crazy people are totally unafraid, so it was obviously a lie, but irrational words are a natural response to extreme situations. In any case, the threat is neutralized without special treatment that may set any dangerous precedence, and that's all I care about.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I just don't see how tranquility is worse than death? A person with a mental illness may go through psychological changes that affect their personality, but that doesn't make them any less of who they are because that's all they can be? That just doesn't make sense, if they're no longer themselves, then who could they possibly be? A tranquil is still the same person, they've just undergone changes.

 

With your logic, death and tranquility are essentially the same, they both end the person you knew. Tranquility at least yields useful results.

 

Yes, both end the person. The difference is, you keep the tranquil person around. That's similiar to executing someone and then stuffing the remains for a display. Looks the same but isn't.

 

Or let's approach it differently. There's still slavery in existence in our world and often the victims are drugged, so they don't feel anything anymore. They escape into a happy fantasy world inside their minds so they don't have to experience what is being done to their bodies. They obey without question, all resistance gone. Sometimes they don't even react to stimuli like pain. If you asked them, they'd tell you they are okay and don't mind. Sounds familiar?

 

I think that many here forget that criminals are humans, too. That means human rights. Only because they are monsters who killed, betrayed and corrupted doesn't mean we have to lower us to their level to punish them. Because it isn't punishment, it is revenge. It isn't just or lawful or anything. We want to see Erimond suffer for all he's done, we want to see him squeal in terror, we can't give him the satisfaction of a quick, clean death. No, instead we delight in his panic as we declare his sentence, watch the color drain from his face and don't give a damn about the mage's reaction to that. Thumbs up. We are so cool.

 

Tranquility is worse than death not because of what happens to the victim but what they represent. They are a living reminder of an act that ripped the part that made them human out. You didn't just kill them, you made a mockery out of them. And then you enslaved that mockery, because a tranquil is pretty much helpless and depends on your care. Even more so if they used to be a hated criminal.

[Lord Raijin]

The Rite of Tranquility was created for mages who are too dangerous to themselves, mages who failed their Harrowing or have otherwise proven to not be able to deal with the power of being a mage. It has never been a criminal punishment.

 

Mages who fail their harrowing wands up dead, not tranquil. It is for those who do not want to undergo the Harrowing, or too weak to take it.

 

According to Mr. Gaider:

 

http://forum.bioware...tion/?bioware=1

 

"The judgement of the Knight-Commander whether a mage needed to be made Tranquil. Traditionally this would be in consultation with the First Enchanter, who represents the interests of the mages to the Chantry. How well this works in practice varies from tower to tower."

 

A mage can be made tranquil if he is deemed to be too dangerous to others and himself base on the judgement of a Knight-Commander. In this case the judgement is ruled by the Inquisitor. Livius Erimond, a mage, has already reached this criteria, and with many witnesses (Including the inquisitor himself) that can prove his guilt in his crimes.

 

Jowan was in line to become tranquil by the order of Knight-Commander Greagoir because he involved himself in blood magic. He was deemed too dangerous for the circle, and to the outside.

[Lord Raijin]

I find it hilarious that you're trying to defend using the RoT when you're profile picture is ANDERS.

 

Anders is my bromance and I 100% support him Find it hilarious or not... I'm surprise to see that so many people are willing to give this man what he truly desires... Death.