172 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Raijin]

He says it was intended as a mercy, and then says there is an argument to apply its use to unruly mages as well, i.e. a punishment. Literally no one (not even the Inquisitor) is going to interpret Erimond's tranquility an act of mercy. When people learn to view it as a punishment, we not only risk the slippery slope that happened at Kirkwall, but also the continued de-humanization and abuse of Tranquil individuals.

 

He said that "It will be up to mages themselves whether they push us to more stringent measures." before saying "The tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that a mage need not to be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose."

 

That is what I've been trying to explain.Giving Erimond tranquility was not a punishment but as an act of mercy so that he could live, and not die. The only thing that is even consider as an act of mercy by killing someone is if they're intense pain or gravely ill.

 

As for this de-humanization due to being Tranquil debate.... I'm afraid that Owain would disagree with you.

 

“My capacity to feel differs from yours, but you also differ from all other beings. You are no more a person than others, and I am no less a person than you are.” - Owain

[The Baconer]

He said that "It will be up to mages themselves whether they push us to more stringent measures." before saying "The tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that a mage need not to be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose."

 

Yes, something that doesn't apply to Erimond at all.

 

 

That is what I've been trying to explain.Giving Erimond tranquility was not a punishment but as an act of mercy so that he could live, and not die. The only thing that is even consider as an act of mercy by killing someone is if they're intense pain or gravely ill.

 

You could rationalize it as one, but it's not fooling anybody, in the game or outside of it.

 

 

As for this de-humanization due to being Tranquil debate.... I'm afraid that Owain would disagree with you.

 

“My capacity to feel differs from yours, but you also differ from all other beings. You are no more a person than others, and I am no less a person than you are.” - Owain

 

So it's clear what I said went waaaay over your head. My point is that Tranquil are people, as per Owain's quote, but they are not treated as such. Both Templars and Mages treat them little better than servile automatons, and sometimes they are even abused and taken advantage of. Coincidentally, the most grievous case we've seen firsthand of this is the Kirkwall Circle, where the rite was wielded as a punishment, which is exactly what you're doing with Erimond. Stop trying to say you're not.

[KaiserShep]

You can't possibly compare the Rite of Tranquility in Kirkwall and its use against Erimond one and the same because it isn't. The Rite was being heavily abused in Kirkwall. Mages were randomly plucked, and were made tranquil without provocation. Erimond on the other hand did it to himself. He committed war crimes against the Grey Wardens, and aided Corypheus

 

 

I most certainly can. As I've said before, it's not about Erimond; it's about the Rite of Tranquility. He doesn't matter so far as its use is concerned. My stance is that it will be used strictly for innocent mages in dire circumstances, where their magic is too much for them to bear. My Inquisitor is not a Templar, and doesn't answer to the Chantry, does not abide by their chant or any of their laws and never will. In my Inquisitor's viewpoint, he receives equal treatment for his crime, regardless of the inherent inequality of being a mage, so no special forms of punishment. Basically, the use of the Rite as punishment against the guilty is something my Inquisitor would totally abolish, without exception.

 

 

The choice of making him tranquil was an act of mercy, and not much of a punishment. If you sent him to the Grey wardens to be punished he would most definitely be killed. It was up to you to know what lays ahead of him. Erimond already proved to you that he is not a responsible mage. Instead of using his magic talent to serve man he allowed his magic to rule over him.

 

Again, not about him, so as an "act of mercy", it's pretty irrelevant. Besides, I'm not interested in showing any kind of mercy to his ilk, so the options are whatever horrible fate the Wardens have, or the quick and easy removal of his head and having his miserable corpse tossed down the mountainside like yesterday's garbage.

 

 

Chantry or not if you have the technology to spare someones life from a capitol punishment, why not use it? The Rite of tranquility does have benefits. It isn't as bad as what Dragon Age 2 or what Asunder showed us.

 

The once dangerous mage prisoner now tranquil can become a skilled craftsman of magical items.

Why viciously execute them when the technology is right there to force them to become a productive citizen of the community?

 

That is my interpretation of the Rite of Tranquility. Forget Kirkwall and Asunder... Look at the benefits.

 

Why would I want to spare him from capital punishment?

 

Frankly, my Inquisitor has no use for another emotionless librarian or something. She already has Alexius, a number of tranquil from the former circles as well as the former rebel mages in her employ on top of her mage companions that can also study and aid in magical affairs, so the bases are well covered. I see absolutely no meaningful benefit, but far more drawbacks in what he would represent, which is that tranquil mages are automatons made to be used by institutions as they see fit. My Inquisitor will not be part of that.

[AshenEndymion]

There is no more Erimond after you make him tranquil. Making someone tranquil is the same as killing someone, only the empty body is left to serve you. 

 

Spoiler

Duchess Florienne's

 corpse certainly served a purpose for my Inquisitor, so I don't see the issue.  Erimond wants to die, and tranquility makes him a useful corpse, rather than just a corpse.

 

The only downside is that the possibility exists that the punishment could be reversed at some point in the future...  But if the Inquisitor is Basalit-an, they might even be able to trade for some qamek to prevent that scenario.

[KaiserShep]

What the heck use is Tranquil Erimond anyway? Who needs another librarian or janitor? There's plenty of those milling about.

[Ryzaki]

Eh I sided with teh templars. We could always use more tranquil.

[AshenEndymion]

What the heck use is Tranquil Erimond anyway? Who needs another librarian or janitor? There's plenty of those milling about.

 

What use is another corpse?  Or another Warden?  Or another life-sentence prisoner in a cell?  There are certainly enough of those in Thedas, too(well, maybe not the last one)...

[Tentacles]

What the heck use is Tranquil Erimond anyway? Who needs another librarian or janitor? There's plenty of those milling about.

Not sure if this as already been mentioned but he may have a decent amount of information on Corphytit he might be willing to spill once tranquil.

[DaemionMoadrin]

He said that "It will be up to mages themselves whether they push us to more stringent measures." before saying "The tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that a mage need not to be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose."

 

That is what I've been trying to explain.Giving Erimond tranquility was not a punishment but as an act of mercy so that he could live, and not die. The only thing that is even consider as an act of mercy by killing someone is if they're intense pain or gravely ill.

 

As for this de-humanization due to being Tranquil debate.... I'm afraid that Owain would disagree with you.

 

“My capacity to feel differs from yours, but you also differ from all other beings. You are no more a person than others, and I am no less a person than you are.” - Owain

 

Cullen is not exactly an authority on the Rite of Tranquility, is he? He's basically telling some PR friendly version of "Our Knight Commander is bonkers and we all hope this is as bad as it gets."

 

Owain was almost respected in the Circle, he's one of the few lucky tranquils... until he just stays in his burned down room, surrounded by demons and abominations. No emotions = no fear = no self preservation.

 

Also... preservation of life is commendable but what kind of life is it? Certaintly not the one of the person who was made tranquil cause they are gone as good as if you killed them. Talking about people being more useful tranquil than dead is pretty cold and calculating.

 

The horrifying part of being made tranquil is this: You retain all your memories and your intelligence. You lose all your emotions. Once made tranquil you realize that you should feel a loss, feel helpless, feel outraged... but all that you can feel is tranquility. Logically you know this is wrong but you can't make yourself care...

 

Seriously, I could write several horry stories just about the Rite of Tranquility. And then people say it's a mercy? When it's used as criminal punishment? Barbaric.

[sylvanaerie]

Cullen is not exactly an authority on the Rite of Tranquility, is he? He's basically telling some PR friendly version of "Our Knight Commander is bonkers and we all hope this is as bad as it gets."

 

Owain was almost respected in the Circle, he's one of the few lucky tranquils... until he just stays in his burned down room, surrounded by demons and abominations. No emotions = no fear = no self preservation.

 

Also... preservation of life is commendable but what kind of life is it? Certaintly not the one of the person who was made tranquil cause they are gone as good as if you killed them. Talking about people being more useful tranquil than dead is pretty cold and calculating.

 

The horrifying part of being made tranquil is this: You retain all your memories and your intelligence. You lose all your emotions. Once made tranquil you realize that you should feel a loss, feel helpless, feel outraged... but all that you can feel is tranquility. Logically you know this is wrong but you can't make yourself care...

 

Seriously, I could write several horry stories just about the Rite of Tranquility. And then people say it's a mercy? When it's used as criminal punishment? Barbaric.

 

Going to have to disagree with this assessment.  Actually what Owain did was pretty smart, considering.  He went downstairs, saw the barrier placed by Wynne and then, seeing no means to exit, opted to return to quietly sorting out the storage room.  Yes, he could have said something, but he didn't.  He felt safe in the familiar area (something a person with emotions could just as easily have determined).  Demons weren't attracted to him because he had no strong emotions to pull at them, and they couldn't possess him so the only thing they could do would be kill him.  But since he was being quiet, no demons or blood mages bothered him.  Considering he also says he would 'prefer to live', meaning he does have some sense of self preservation, and is aware of his own existence, he isn't some mindless automaton with no sense of self preservation.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Going to have to disagree with this assessment.  Actually what Owain did was pretty smart, considering.  He went downstairs, saw the barrier placed by Wynne and then, seeing no means to exit, opted to return to quietly sorting out the storage room.  Yes, he could have said something, but he didn't.  He felt safe in the familiar area (something a person with emotions could just as easily have determined).  Demons weren't attracted to him because he had no strong emotions to pull at them, and they couldn't possess him so the only thing they could do would be kill him.  But since he was being quiet, no demons or blood mages bothered him.  Considering he also says he would 'prefer to live', meaning he does have some sense of self preservation, and is aware of his own existence, he isn't some mindless automaton with no sense of self preservation.

 

Hm, I can't disagree with that. I guess I do not need to point out that being calm and quiet while being surrounded by demons is not normal behaviour?

[AshenEndymion]

Hm, I can't disagree with that. I guess I do not need to point out that being calm and quiet while being surrounded by demons is not normal behaviour?

 

Being quiet is a normal behavior(a "normal" person would probably hide and try to make as little noise as possible, like that mage hiding in the closet).  Being calm?  Depends on the person.  After all, the Warden doesn't seem to be freaking out about being locked in a tower full of demons...

[sylvanaerie]

Hm, I can't disagree with that. I guess I do not need to point out that being calm and quiet while being surrounded by demons is not normal behaviour?

Of course it isn't for you or I.  Being tranquil, he has no choice about being calm, but the being quiet part, even a person with emotions can do, so that could be considered normal.  If an intruder is trying to find you in your home, it wouldn't be prudent to make a lot of noise from your hiding spot would it?

[DaemionMoadrin]

Yeah, I knew that argument wouldn't work.

[Lord Raijin]

Yes, something that doesn't apply to Erimond at all.

 

 

 

You could rationalize it as one, but it's not fooling anybody, in the game or outside of it.

 

 

 

So it's clear what I said went waaaay over your head. My point is that Tranquil are people, as per Owain's quote, but they are not treated as such. Both Templars and Mages treat them little better than servile automatons, and sometimes they are even abused and taken advantage of. Coincidentally, the most grievous case we've seen firsthand of this is the Kirkwall Circle, where the rite was wielded as a punishment, which is exactly what you're doing with Erimond. Stop trying to say you're not.

 

I'm confused. Why doesn't it apply to Erimond? What Cullen said has Erimond written all over it. Please elaborate without displaying any emotions of what you have for the Rite of Tranquility because I'm simply having a hard time understanding you, and no. I'm not trying to fool anyone. I'm trying to explain how ordering this man, who was on the verge of committing genocide against an order of Grey wardens, and used his magic to summon the main antagonist's archdemon dragon to kill the inquisitor, to under go the Rite of tranquility instead of giving him the death penalty... to which he desperately wanted because in his mind he would be serving his “living god” in the afterlife.

The situation in Kirkwall was chaotic. The Chantry was at fault for allowing it to happen. Mages and Tranquils were equally abused, but that is in the past, and what Erimond did is in the present. We shouldn't even debating the situation of Kirkwall in the first place considering the fact that this is Inquisition.

The Chantry doesn't have much of power to wield such an authority these days anyways considering the fact that the Divine is dead, and with much of their military gone rouge. The Inquisition are the new authority figures. Bioware made that perfectly clear considering the fact that they gave us these options to choose from.

By the way once Erimond is made tranquil he becomes logical, and with his emotions now erased he could actually be useful to the Inquisition by revealing valuable information about his former boss Corypheus, as Tentacles explained on his post. If you execute him you get nothing... no information at all which makes things a tad bit difficult to defeat an ancient Darkspawn who intends to destroy the world.

[The Baconer]

I'm confused. Why doesn't it apply to Erimond? What Cullen said has Erimond written all over it. Please elaborate without displaying any emotions of what you have for the Rite of Tranquility because I'm simply having a hard time understanding you, and no. I'm not trying to fool anyone.

 

"The tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that a mage need not to be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose."

 

Killing Erimond is not done "out of hand", nor is there any question as to his status as a threat. Cullen is referring to mages whose ability to survive the Harrowing are slim, not maleficar.

 

 

I'm not trying to fool anyone. I'm trying to explain how ordering this man, who was on the verge of committing genocide against an order of Grey wardens, and used his magic to summon the main antagonist's archdemon dragon to kill the inquisitor, to under go the Rite of tranquility instead of giving him the death penalty... to which he desperately wanted because in his mind he would be serving his “living god” in the afterlife.

 

Right, and in the meantime you've from gone admitting to using it as a punishment in the OP to "no, wait... it's mercy! That's what I've been saying the whole time!"

 

 

The situation in Kirkwall was chaotic. The Chantry was at fault for allowing it to happen. Mages and Tranquils were equally abused, but that is in the past, and what Erimond did is in the present. We shouldn't even debating the situation of Kirkwall in the first place considering the fact that this is Inquisition.

The Chantry doesn't have much of power to wield such an authority these days anyways considering the fact that the Divine is dead, and with much of their military gone rouge. The Inquisition are the new authority figures. Bioware made that perfectly clear considering the fact that they gave us these options to choose from.

 

Kirkwall was the most heinous example, but it was not the only one. Templars, and even Mages by and large don't see Tranquil as people. Using Tranquility as a punishment only encourages further stigmatization of both the rite and the individuals it has been performed upon.

 

 

By the way once Erimond is made tranquil he becomes logical, and with his emotions now erased he could actually be useful to the Inquisition by revealing valuable information about his former boss Corypheus, as Tentacles explained on his post. If you execute him you get nothing... no information at all which makes things a tad bit difficult to defeat an ancient Darkspawn who intends to destroy the world.

 

I bodied Corypheus just fine, thank you.

 

Of course, Erimond had already told me of Corypheus' plan and more, and that was before he was even taken into custody.

[Lord Raijin]

Cullen is not exactly an authority on the Rite of Tranquility, is he? He's basically telling some PR friendly version of "Our Knight Commander is bonkers and we all hope this is as bad as it gets."

 

Owain was almost respected in the Circle, he's one of the few lucky tranquils... until he just stays in his burned down room, surrounded by demons and abominations. No emotions = no fear = no self preservation.

 

Also... preservation of life is commendable but what kind of life is it? Certaintly not the one of the person who was made tranquil cause they are gone as good as if you killed them. Talking about people being more useful tranquil than dead is pretty cold and calculating.

 

The horrifying part of being made tranquil is this: You retain all your memories and your intelligence. You lose all your emotions. Once made tranquil you realize that you should feel a loss, feel helpless, feel outraged... but all that you can feel is tranquility. Logically you know this is wrong but you can't make yourself care...

 

Seriously, I could write several horry stories just about the Rite of Tranquility. And then people say it's a mercy? When it's used as criminal punishment? Barbaric.

 

Do you honestly believe that Cullen become a Templar base on his good looks and postures? Theirs rigorous training and education that comes with the position as a Templar. It isn't just to eat lyrium and hunt down mages. I must have to disagree with your statement. Cullen is an authority on the Rite of Tranquility because he was taught all about it in Templar Order 101 class. You simply fail to realize that Cullen was giving Hawke a short version of the history of the Rite, and how it was created to show mercy to mages who are either too vulnerable to demonic possession or deemed too dangerous by under going the Rite instead of killing them. Despite Jowan being a blood mage Knight-Commander Greagoir wanted to show him mercy by putting him on the list to be made tranquil.

 

I also disagree on your evaluation on the Rite of Tranquility because it illogical and it's all base on your very own emotions on what you feel about the Rite, and not what the Lead writer indicates about the Tranquil.

 

Feel free to write your horror stories about the Rite of tranquility. I'll take a moment to read them, but don't expect me to agree with you plan on putting emotions into your writing, and not logic and reason.

[The Baconer]

Despite Jowan being a blood mage Knight-Commander Greagoir wanted to show him mercy by putting him on the list to be made tranquil.

 

Wrong. Once it is confirmed that Jowan is in fact a blood mage, Greagoir immediately sentences him to death.

[KaiserShep]

Do you honestly believe that Cullen become a Templar base on his good looks and postures? Theirs rigorous training and education that comes with the position as a Templar. It isn't just to eat lyrium and hunt down mages. I must have to disagree with your statement. Cullen is an authority on the Rite of Tranquility because he was taught all about it in Templar Order 101 class. You simply fail to realize that Cullen was giving Hawke a short version of the history of the Rite, and how it was created to show mercy to mages who are either too vulnerable to demonic possession or deemed too dangerous by under going the Rite instead of killing them.

 

You know who else was an authority on the Rite of Tranquility, this guy:

 

 

He did oversee it a lot, after all.

[Lord Raijin]

"The tranquil ritual was created as a mercy so that a mage need not to be killed out of hand for a threat they might pose."

 

Killing Erimond is not done "out of hand", nor is there any question as to his status as a threat. Cullen is referring to mages whose ability to survive the Harrowing are slim, not maleficar.

 

 

 

Right, and in the meantime you've from gone admitting to using it as a punishment in the OP to "no, wait... it's mercy! That's what I've been saying the whole time!"

 

 

 

Kirkwall was the most heinous example, but it was not the only one. Templars, and even Mages by and large don't see Tranquil as people. Using Tranquility as a punishment only encourages further stigmatization of both the rite and the individuals it has been performed upon.

 

 

 

I bodied Corypheus just fine, thank you.

 

Of course, Erimond had already told me of Corypheus' plan and more, and that was before he was even taken into custody.

 

This is what Cullen was referring about

http://dragonage.wik...y:_The_Tranquil

 

Although apprentices do not know the nature of the Harrowing, all of them understand its consequences: They either pass and become full mages, or they are never seen again. Those who fear to undertake this rite of passage, or those who are deemed weak or unstable, are given the Rite of Tranquility instead.

 

I firmly believe that Erimond clearly fits in the category of being unstable. Wouldn't you agree? Instead of killing him for his crimes you turn him into a problem solving logical scientist... actually you're doing him, and everyone else a favor by giving him the Rite.

[KaiserShep]

Eliminating him is no less a favor to society. After all, a neutralized threat is a neutralized threat, and best of all, no political baggage.

[Lord Raijin]

You know who else was an authority on the Rite of Tranquility, this guy:

 

 

He did oversee it a lot, after all.

 

He's an *******. I think we all can agree with that.
 

[The Baconer]

This is what Cullen was referring about

http://dragonage.wik...y:_The_Tranquil

 

Although apprentices do not know the nature of the Harrowing, all of them understand its consequences: They either pass and become full mages, or they are never seen again. Those who fear to undertake this rite of passage, or those who are deemed weak or unstable, are given the Rite of Tranquility instead.

 

Yes, I understand what Cullen is talking about, but I don't think you do.

 

 

I firmly believe that Erimond clearly fits in the category of being unstable. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Erimond is not an apprentice, or even a member of the (southern) Circle at all, nor is he unstable. Pretty much nothing regarding the intended use of Tranquility applies to him.

[Lord Raijin]

Yes, I understand what Cullen is talking about, but I don't think you do.

 

 

 

Erimond is not an apprentice, or even a member of the (southern) Circle at all, nor is he unstable. Pretty much nothing regarding the intended use of Tranquility applies to him.

 

Erimond actions says otherwise, and yes. I know exactly what Cullen is talking about.

[The Baconer]

Erimond actions says otherwise,

 

Erimond is among the most stable people we can judge. Don't mistake genuine malevolence for mental instability. 

 

 

I know exactly what Cullen is talking about.

 

Then stop proving otherwise.