172 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

I never found the whole "defiance in the face of death" act to be very convincing. Not from him, nor from anyone else who has ever played that card. It just comes across as really poor reverse-psychology.

I was close to making him Tranquil, myself, but I saw how that could backfire (among other things, that spirit walking around the premises who disapproved of your decision and is prone to doing weird things) and decided to just kill him and be done with it. He can act all haughty and tell himself whatever makes him feel better about having failed and soon becoming forgotten about, but he's still dead.

Also, one has to consider the message they send about the validity of using the Rite of Tranquility to punish people.

The message being that Tranquility is an incredible abuse perpetrated by the Chantry, and to the extent that the knowledge is ever used again it should be recognised for what it is, i.e. a punishment worse than execution?

[KainD]

As for this de-humanization due to being Tranquil debate.... I'm afraid that Owain would disagree with you.

 

“My capacity to feel differs from yours, but you also differ from all other beings. You are no more a person than others, and I am no less a person than you are.” - Owain

 

Owain has no freaking idea what he is saying, and he can never understand what it is to be a person, it's beyond him. Owain is not a person, nor is any tranquil. 

[Emu8207]

I gave him Tranquility and didn't regret it.

[Lord Raijin]

Erimond is among the most stable people we can judge. Don't mistake genuine malevolence for mental instability. 

 

 

 

Then stop proving otherwise.

 

Many mental health experts would heavily debate that malevolent behavior is caused by mental instability. Its a classic symthom of Antisocial personality disorder.

[Red Panda]

Many mental health experts would heavily debate that malevolent behavior is caused by mental instability. Its a classic symthom of Antisocial personality disorder.

Would that really be a mental illness in the case of Erimond, or are we classifying him that way because we don't want to admit that his point of view was arrived at logically?

[Lord Raijin]

Owain has no freaking idea what he is saying, and he can never understand what it is to be a person, it's beyond him. Owain is not a person, nor is any tranquil. 

 

And how do you know Owain has no "freaking" idea what hes saying? He seems pretty content, and even disagrees with your observation solely on your definition of being a person as he explains that he has the same human anatomy as everyone else.

[Lord Raijin]

Would that really be a mental illness in the case of Erimond, or are we classifying him that way because we don't want to admit that his point of view was arrived at logically?

 

http://www.mayoclini...on/con-20027920

 

Apparently it does.

 

Edited: Here's another link http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/000921.htm

[The Baconer]

Many mental health experts would heavily debate that malevolent behavior is caused by mental instability. Its a classic symthom of Antisocial personality disorder.

 

http://www.mayoclini...on/con-20027920

 

Apparently it does.

 

Edited: Here's another link http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/000921.htm

 

Erimond's behavior is not considered antisocial or aberrant in the place he was raised, nor does he have an inclination to break "the law", or any "law" that he knows.

 

 

Would that really be a mental illness in the case of Erimond, or are we classifying him that way because we don't want to admit that his point of view was arrived at logically?

 

Yes, that is exactly what's happening here.

[Lord Raijin]

Erimond's behavior is not considered antisocial or aberrant in the place he was raised, nor does he have an inclination to break "the law", or any "law" that he knows.

 

Can we add in Affluenza to the table too?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Erimond's behavior is not considered antisocial or aberrant in the place he was raised, nor does he have an inclination to break "the law", or any "law" that he knows.

He's trying to help create a god. Aren't most Tevinters nominally Andrastian?

[KainD]

And how do you know Owain has no "freaking" idea what hes saying? He seems pretty content, and even disagrees with your observation solely on your definition of being a person as he explains that he has the same human anatomy as everyone else.

 

In Thedas anatomy is not what makes a person. 

[AshenEndymion]

Erimond's behavior is not considered antisocial or aberrant in the place he was raised, nor does he have an inclination to break "the law", or any "law" that he knows.

 

Erimond knows that he's breaking the laws of Southern Thedas.  Erimond doesn't believe those laws apply to him because his god says they don't, and he doesn't believe anyone in the south can judge him because his god says they can't...

[DaemionMoadrin]

And how do you know Owain has no "freaking" idea what hes saying? He seems pretty content, and even disagrees with your observation solely on your definition of being a person as he explains that he has the same human anatomy as everyone else.

 

How could he seem otherwise? You could cut him with a knife and he'd be content with it. He might ask you to stop, but he wouldn't -do- anything.

 

Since he's mentally incompetent he'd be legally incapable, at the level of a minor. I'd even go as far as non compos mentis.

Which means nothing he says counts for anything. At best he's severely biased because he is incapable of even disliking his current state of being, much less making a choice about it.

[The Baconer]

He's trying to help create a god. Aren't most Tevinters nominally Andrastian?

 

Out of the magisters? Eh...

 

 

Erimond knows that he's breaking the laws of Southern Thedas.  Erimond doesn't believe those laws apply to him because his god says they don't, and he doesn't believe anyone in the south can judge him because his god says they can't...

 

I'd imagine a Teyrn or Duke finding themselves in Tevinter in a similar context would make the same rebuttal.

 

 

Can we add in Affluenza to the table too?

 

No.

[Lord Raijin]

How could he seem otherwise? You could cut him with a knife and he'd be content with it. He might ask you to stop, but he wouldn't -do- anything.

 

Since he's mentally incompetent he'd be legally incapable, at the level of a minor. I'd even go as far as non compos mentis.

Which means nothing he says counts for anything. At best he's severely biased because he is incapable of even disliking his current state of being, much less making a choice about it.

 

That's just utter BS. Back in broken circle he clearly tells you that he doesn't want to die. Can you prove this? Physical pain and emotion pain are completely different.

[AshenEndymion]

I'd imagine a Teyrn or Duke finding themselves in Tevinter in a similar context would make the same rebuttal.

 

And said Teyrn or Duke would be just as mentally deficient.  They would also be punished regardless of their claims, unless their "god" manifested itself and literally prevented it...

[DaemionMoadrin]

That's just utter BS. Back in broken circle he clearly tells you that he doesn't want to die. Can you prove this? Physical pain and emotion pain are completely different.

 

I could easily make a case that a person without any emotions, dreams and desires is mentally incompetent. I am not sure you grasp how different they would be, they'd be almost alien or robotic.

Owain says he doesn't want to die, true. He doesn't do anything about it though. Instead he's cleaning up his burned down room.

 

A tranquil will always be content, no matter what happens. It's their default state, it can not be changed. Or are you debating this?

[The Baconer]

And said Teyrn or Duke would be just as mentally deficient.

 

Of course, if they had met an immortal being who had been to the Black City itself...

[AshenEndymion]

Of course, if they had met an immortal being who had been to the Black City itself...

 

Corypheus being dead eliminates the "immortal" part of that statement...

[The Baconer]

Corypheus being dead eliminates the "immortal" part of that statement...

 

It doesn't. Corypheus is/was effectively immortal. The manner of his final disposal only reinforces.

[AshenEndymion]

It doesn't. Corypheus is/was effectively immortal. The manner of his final disposal only reinforces.

 

If Corypheus is dead, he's not immortal.  His manner of death doesn't matter.

[The Baconer]

If Corypheus is dead, he's not immortal.  His manner of death doesn't matter.

 

That's not what immortal means.

[Lord Raijin]

I could easily make a case that a person without any emotions, dreams and desires is mentally incompetent. I am not sure you grasp how different they would be, they'd be almost alien or robotic.

Owain says he doesn't want to die, true. He doesn't do anything about it though. Instead he's cleaning up his burned down room.

 

A tranquil will always be content, no matter what happens. It's their default state, it can not be changed. Or are you debating this?

 

I don't think you understand the legal defintion of mentally incompetence. By legal standards mental incompetence is the inability of a person to make or carry out important decisions regarding his or her affairs. An individual is defined as mentally incompetent if h/she is manifestly psychotic or otherwise of unsound mind, either consistently or sporadically, by reason of mental defect. Few examples of such mental defect are retardation, schizophrenia, and dementia.

 

http://definitions.u...l-incompetence/

 

The Tranquil, ironically, resemble sleepwalkers, never entirely awake nor asleep. They are still part of our Circle, however, and some might say they are the most critical part. They have incredible powers of concentration, for it is simply impossible to distract a Tranquil mage, and this makes them capable of becoming craftsmen of such skill that they rival even the adeptness of the dwarves. The Formari, the branch of the Circle devoted to item enchantment, is made up exclusively of Tranquil, and is the source of all the wealth that sustains our towers.

 

http://dragonage.wik...y:_The_Tranquil

[legbamel]

Consider:
- Karl's reaction when he's briefly not Tranquil.
- Cole knows how Tranquility can be reversed.
- He's devoted to alleviating suffering.
- He's a spirit. From the Fade.

Yeah, I'm not going to make anyone Tranquil and hope it sticks at Skyhold, even if I don't find it morally reprehensible to do so.

Edited to clarify that I do, indeed, find ireprehensible, lest there be any confusion on that point.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I don't think you understand the legal defintion of mentally incompetence. By legal standards mental incompetence is the inability of a person to make or carry out important decisions regarding his or her affairs. An individual is defined as mentally incompetent if h/she is manifestly psychotic or otherwise of unsound mind, either consistently or sporadically, by reason of mental defect. Few examples of such mental defect are retardation, schizophrenia, and dementia.

 

http://definitions.u...l-incompetence/

 

The Tranquil, ironically, resemble sleepwalkers, never entirely awake nor asleep. They are still part of our Circle, however, and some might say they are the most critical part. They have incredible powers of concentration, for it is simply impossible to distract a Tranquil mage, and this makes them capable of becoming craftsmen of such skill that they rival even the adeptness of the dwarves. The Formari, the branch of the Circle devoted to item enchantment, is made up exclusively of Tranquil, and is the source of all the wealth that sustains our towers.

 

http://dragonage.wik...y:_The_Tranquil

 

Have you ever heard of a tranquil who refused to work for the Circle? I mean, they are no longer in danger of possession or harming others, they have no reason to stay. They could just as well go out in the world, go back to their families and become an artisan. Or fisherman. Or whatever else they want.

But not a single one of them does? Do you know why? Because they have no wants. No needs. They are -always- content. If you leave a newly created tranquil alone, they'll probably just sit there until they fall over dead.

They are incapable of making any decisions on their own. You have to give them rules to live by or they won't live long. They are probably highly suggestible at first because they don't care. It's all the same to them because... yep. They are always content.

That means they are basically slaves who can never rebel, never complain and will always do as told. Why wouldn't they? They are content anyway.

 

If that's not the case... then why would any tranquil stay with the Circles? I am pretty sure the majority was made tranquil against their will and they do retain their memories. Emotions and dreams are removed, leading to an increased concentration. They can still think logically though but not a single one of them refuses to work for the people who just mind raped them and betrayed their trust? I find that hard to believe.

 

Being made tranquil is not a mercy, it's despicable. legbamel just mentioned Karl... if being tranquil was so great, why did he beg for a mercy kill when he got his emotions back temporarily?