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Lord Livius Erimond


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#151
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Have you ever heard of a tranquil who refused to work for the Circle? I mean, they are no longer in danger of possession or harming others, they have no reason to stay. They could just as well go out in the world, go back to their families and become an artisan. Or fisherman. Or whatever else they want.

But not a single one of them does? Do you know why? Because they have no wants. No needs. They are -always- content. If you leave a newly created tranquil alone, they'll probably just sit there until they fall over dead.

They are incapable of making any decisions on their own. You have to give them rules to live by or they won't live long. They are probably highly suggestible at first because they don't care. It's all the same to them because... yep. They are always content.

That means they are basically slaves who can never rebel, never complain and will always do as told. Why wouldn't they? They are content anyway.

 

If that's not the case... then why would any tranquil stay with the Circles? I am pretty sure the majority was made tranquil against their will and they do retain their memories. Emotions and dreams are removed, leading to an increased concentration. They can still think logically though but not a single one of them refuses to work for the people who just mind raped them and betrayed their trust? I find that hard to believe.

Well, Gaider says that they are capable of deciding not to work at the Circle, and some do if they're sure they can find something better someplace else. He also states that this doesn't happen often, which is exactly what you'd expect considering how many people are creeped out by them and the fact that the Circle is a guaranteed three hots and a cot. The Circle has serious flaws, but we've only ever heard of one person starving there.



#152
DaemionMoadrin

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Well, Gaider says that they are capable of deciding not to work at the Circle, and some do if they're sure they can find something better someplace else. He also states that this doesn't happen often, which is exactly what you'd expect considering how many people are creeped out by them and the fact that the Circle is a guaranteed three hots and a cot. The Circle has serious flaws, but we've only ever heard of one person starving there.

 

Well, thanks for killing my argument. ;) :D

 

Now I also need to read interviews and blog posts for DA lore...



#153
sylvanaerie

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Have you ever heard of a tranquil who refused to work for the Circle? I mean, they are no longer in danger of possession or harming others, they have no reason to stay. They could just as well go out in the world, go back to their families and become an artisan. Or fisherman. Or whatever else they want.

But not a single one of them does? Do you know why? Because they have no wants. No needs. They are -always- content. If you leave a newly created tranquil alone, they'll probably just sit there until they fall over dead.

They are incapable of making any decisions on their own. You have to give them rules to live by or they won't live long. They are probably highly suggestible at first because they don't care. It's all the same to them because... yep. They are always content.

That means they are basically slaves who can never rebel, never complain and will always do as told. Why wouldn't they? They are content anyway.

 

If that's not the case... then why would any tranquil stay with the Circles? I am pretty sure the majority was made tranquil against their will and they do retain their memories. Emotions and dreams are removed, leading to an increased concentration. They can still think logically though but not a single one of them refuses to work for the people who just mind raped them and betrayed their trust? I find that hard to believe.

 

Being made tranquil is not a mercy, it's despicable. legbamel just mentioned Karl... if being tranquil was so great, why did he beg for a mercy kill when he got his emotions back temporarily?

 

I'm fairly certain a Tranquil feels pain, cold, hunger just like any other person.  Becoming Tranquil does not remove the basic human needs, just emotional reaction.  They are not mindless automatons.  A Tranquil wouldn't just sit there if he was hungry or naked (and cold) till he died of thirst/exposure, he'd get up, get dressed and get something to eat.  If he touched a hot stove, he'd pull his hand away.  They are emotionless not catatonic.

 

Owain went to the stockroom because it felt safe, familiar.  This is a reaction anyone can have, not just a Tranquil.  I'd argue that it's almost an emotional one, since he drew comfort from the familiar.  There were no demons or blood mages in the stock room with him.  It was as safe a room as any other he would have found upstairs.

 

Spoiler

 

It could be Tranquil remain at the Circle because they feel comfortable around other mages.  As has already been pointed out in this thread, people rarely treat them as equals, or even human at times.  Among the mages they can have useful lives.  The herbalist in Redcliffe you can make into an agent says he wants to be useful and since he's Tranquil, Alexius kicked him out of the castle and he has nothing to give him purpose.

 

I think the rules of tranquility get played with hard and fast in the game lore. Sometimes we see them acting completely like automatons, sometimes we see them with independent thought.  

 

Karl was already a 'dissident'--forcibly Tranquilled against his will.  It's no wonder once restored he asked for a mercy killing.  I think Owain would have a different response since he was a volunteer for it, but there's no way of knowing, since he hasn't been seen since Origins.

 

Spoiler



#154
DaemionMoadrin

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Yes, it's already been established that this one of my arguments isn't working. :)

 

I still believe the Rite of Tranquility is a last resort for mages who are a danger to themselves and others, probably because they wouldn't survive their Harrowing. It is not a criminal punishment and the tranquil is a different person than the mage they were.

 

There are some holes in the lore/logic of it all.

 

Anyway, I have nothing new to add, I presented all my arguments and ideas already. At best I could write a short horror story about an apprentice who was made tranquil against his will because his teachers believed he wouldn't survive the Harrowing.



#155
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Now I also need to read interviews and blog posts for DA lore...

Don't bother. The relevant bits are all going to come to you if you stick around long enough.



#156
Lord Raijin

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Have you ever heard of a tranquil who refused to work for the Circle? I mean, they are no longer in danger of possession or harming others, they have no reason to stay. They could just as well go out in the world, go back to their families and become an artisan. Or fisherman. Or whatever else they want.

But not a single one of them does? Do you know why? Because they have no wants. No needs. They are -always- content. If you leave a newly created tranquil alone, they'll probably just sit there until they fall over dead.

They are incapable of making any decisions on their own. You have to give them rules to live by or they won't live long. They are probably highly suggestible at first because they don't care. It's all the same to them because... yep. They are always content.

That means they are basically slaves who can never rebel, never complain and will always do as told. Why wouldn't they? They are content anyway.

 

If that's not the case... then why would any tranquil stay with the Circles? I am pretty sure the majority was made tranquil against their will and they do retain their memories. Emotions and dreams are removed, leading to an increased concentration. They can still think logically though but not a single one of them refuses to work for the people who just mind raped them and betrayed their trust? I find that hard to believe.

 

Being made tranquil is not a mercy, it's despicable. legbamel just mentioned Karl... if being tranquil was so great, why did he beg for a mercy kill when he got his emotions back temporarily?

 

 

Many of the tranquil have been in the circle for almost their entire lives. They know nothing outside the circle. Once their tranquil they're free to leave at any given time because they're no longer considered mages. Some do leave while so many would rather stay because like I said before they do not have outside experience, and so logically speaking they prefer to stay.

No the tranquil are not slaves and they're free to disapprove of what they're told if they think it's illogical.

 

As far as the reaction of Karl being temporary brought back to his former self could be explained.

http://dragonage.wik...ersing_the_Rite

 

Asunder

Spoiler



#157
FreshRevenge

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I just finished doing this. I am a mage and I  sentence the right of tranquility on him and it was pretty epic. I felt that normally I wouldn't sentence it but because he did cause a lot of people to die. Plus he was working with the enemy Corpheus that giving him what he wanted wasn't justice. He wanted to die by me beheading him. Sorry knowing that people just don't die but live on.

 

So I am bit confused on some of the reactions my team gave me. But oh well.



#158
PETD

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I will try to decrypt each individual companions' approve and disapprove as best I can. Since I tranquiled Erimond, partly because of his arrogant attitude.

 

Vivienne and Cassandra approves of the choice, is most likely because agreeably, Erimond is too dangerous and would be best serve as a warning for anyone as going too far. 

 

Dorian disapprove, more likely because of his culture. Tranquiling another Tevinter is more or less a Power game rather than punishment. When you speak to him, he can't seems to understand why the Southern mages have Circles.

 

Cole disapproves because he is a spirit of compassion. He is likely to see execution or given to the GW as a more compassionate thing to do than Tranquil.

 

Blackwall would prefer you to imprison or send him to the GW, because Erimond caused more harm to the GW than to the Inquisition.

 

Solas is harder for me to tell cause Judgment seems to vary for him.

 

The rebel Mages would not agree with Tranquil most likely because they think that the Inquisition will go happy-trigger with Tranquility.

Which I think, there should be some that would agree on the decision but than they weren't at Adamant so it is hard to tell.


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#159
KaiserShep

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I think Dorian's being a mage matters more than him being from Tevinter.



#160
Ieldra

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I've posted about this before, but in fact the reason why I don't use Tranquility is more simple: I refuse to set a precedent that makes Tranquility appear legitimate as a punishment. In clear cases like this, I'd always choose something else.

 

Having said that, the line between punishment and prevention isn't always well-defined. For instance, what do you do with a young mage who has set a few people on fire and claims it was accidental? You have no way to ascertain sincerity, and anyway there is the question if and how such a mage should suffer some form of punishment even so. In such cases where Tranquility appears an appropriate preventive measure I would probably offer the choice between Tranquility and death.

 

Erimond doesn't get that choice, and that he regards death as the lesser measure has no bearing on my decision. In fact, what the sentenced feels about his punishment is about the last thing I consider. It is much more important how my decision affects everyone else. At this point, my decision is an example of how I'm going to rule, and I won't let that be tarnished by using Tranquility as a punishment. Death is a clean and final way to deal with the problem.


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#161
PETD

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I think Dorian's being a mage matters more than him being from Tevinter.

 

I was talking not only as a Tevinter. In Tevinter's culture, Mages are free and Transquiling someone is to have power over someone. 

 

What I got the feeling from Dorian is that he is proud to be a Tevinter as well as being a Mage. So I was referring to both of these aspects. Rather than assuming that it is just his Mage side, he is disgusted with what some of his people do after all.



#162
PorcelynDoll

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It's incredibly satisfying to make him tranquil, it makes me "muh hahahahaha"  but I only do it on my pro circle mage.

I always hesitate to kill him because his statements about freeing him from the physical and glory awaits unnerves me. I do think if you are going to kill someone, just do it, don't make them suffer, so I usually execute him myself. Plus the scene makes me feel like Ned Stark in the first episode of GoT when he beheads the crow.



#163
t0mm06

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1. it shouldn't matter how arrogant or cocky he is when he is dragged in-front of you. (from purely a 'justice' point of view) His  judgment should have very little to do with him, but you look at his crimes and how best to punish them.

 

2. Him wanting death shouldn't factor in because it shouldnt be about what he wants at all. It should be about whats best for the people. and what is best for the people (all of the people, mages included) is not having a leader who sentences crime more or less harshly because of his personal feelings about the criminal.

 

3 I sort of think of Tranquility, comparing it to real world terms, like alzheimer's. And im pretty sure anyone who has seen a relative go through that would never wish it on anyone.

 

 

EDIT:

Ohh also this whole 'make him a servant he'll hate that' argument is invalid, he'll hate it for the like 20 minutes before he is made tranquil then he will have no feelings on the matter... because he's tranquil 


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#164
Medhia_Nox

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I think you should have the option to ask Bull to call in an Arvaarad to bind the ******.

 

What "I" would do as the person typing on the computer is not what I would do as a ruler. 

 

Execution carries with it it's own problems... one must only find death noble to have execution become meaningless. Groups of fanatics (as the Venatori clearly are) are not swayed by notions of "death for their cause". 

 

I am not setting a precedence for "the common mage who accidentally burned the turnip fields because his parents make him eat turnip soup daily".

 

I am setting a precedence for "a fanatic who is proud to die for his cause and will serve as an example of future fanatics." 

 

To this end - I know what some of those fanatics (the mage ones) fear most.  I know what will give them pause... I know what they will say of the Inquisitor who is the embodiment of fear should he come knocking. 

 

And so, I used it. 



#165
RepHope

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"A mage's crime deserves a mage's pinishment".

One of the few times my character says exactly what I'm thinking.
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#166
KaiserShep

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I think you should have the option to ask Bull to call in an Arvaarad to bind the ******.

 

What "I" would do as the person typing on the computer is not what I would do as a ruler. 

 

Execution carries with it it's own problems... one must only find death noble to have execution become meaningless. Groups of fanatics (as the Venatori clearly are) are not swayed by notions of "death for their cause". 

 

I am not setting a precedence for "the common mage who accidentally burned the turnip fields because his parents make him eat turnip soup daily".

 

I am setting a precedence for "a fanatic who is proud to die for his cause and will serve as an example of future fanatics." 

 

To this end - I know what some of those fanatics (the mage ones) fear most.  I know what will give them pause... I know what they will say of the Inquisitor who is the embodiment of fear should he come knocking. 

 

And so, I used it. 

 

What one intends when issuing punishment may not determine how people interpret it. If the mages in general disapprove because they see issuing the Rite as a discriminatory act, how the person who made the decision prefers to think of it doesn't matter.



#167
CamlTowPetttingZoo

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I play as a mage who is anti circle in two play through's and I have tranquilized him in both of them. I simply behead Alexius though. Alexius' actions seem to come more from fear of losing his son. Not that it makes him better but he seems more like someone who was caught up in a horrible situation and made a poor choice. Erimond is a monster though and I serve him up as an example to other Venatori. I didn't do so lightly, the rite of tranquility is the ultimate punishment IMO and I wouldn't use it on other mages. Erimond deserves it though, I can't think of any other mage in the entire series that deserves it besides him. I wouldn't even use it on Anders and I hated him at the end of DA2.



#168
KaiserShep

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It's very ironic to be an anti-Circle mage that uses a method established by the Circle itself as a form of punishment.



#169
CamlTowPetttingZoo

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It's very ironic to be an anti-Circle mage that uses a method established by the Circle itself as a form of punishment.

I thought it wasn't made by the circle though?



#170
Nimlowyn

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I thought it wasn't made by the circle though?

The Seekers taught the Circles about the Rite of Tranquility. They just left one important detail out...



#171
Cecilia

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According to The Chantry: “Once a mage passes his/her Harrowing they cannot be made Tranquil.”

 

However The Templars overlooked this “law” and made mages Tranquil as a means of punishment. Meredith is a good example of this. It did not help matters that The Chantry who was aware of the Templars using Tranquility in this way did not step in.

 

Why?

 

Those who are made Tranquil are generally left to enchant items. Which in turns gives The Chantry a large chunk of income. The more Tranquil, the more income The Chantry receives. The Chantry cannot make every mage Tranquil this would cause an uproar.

 

Let us say that three mages at a Circle were made Tranquil because he/she did not pass their Harrowing. Well now The Chantry has “X” amount of income coming in. But if three mages were made Tranquil for whatever the crimes they committed The Chantry now has six mages instead of three bringing in more income. Thus The Chantry is willing to look the other way.

 

While The Chantry is willing to look the other way, there are those who are against such an abuse with the Rite from both mage and non-mage alike. Which is part of the reason why there are mages who are against The Chantry.

 

Remember: The Rite not only takes away a mage’s magic but also removes all their emotion, thus leaving them a hollowed shell.

 

From my view point giving Erimond Tranquility MAY seem like the proper punishment but in fact it is not. Wielding the brand as a means of punishment makes you just as bad as The Templars and The Chantry for not only abusing the Rite but also going against Chantry law.

 

Most mages would rather die than be made Tranquil. IF I were a mage, I’d feel the same way.

 

In my choice, I gave Erimond death. Yes, that is what he wanted, but at least I feel better knowing I did not stoop to the level of breaking The Chantry’s law.

 

Remember too there MAY be a way to reverse The Rite of Tranquility. What if it can be done? What happens if Erimond was made Tranquil and is “cured?”

 

For me making Erimond tranquil is not a solution just the start of a whole new list of problems not only among the Mages but also MAY bring up worse problems in the future.

 

Just passed this judgement~

 

I will admit part of the decision was emotional - the walk through the Fade was pretty emotionally traumatic - especially the side quest which was essentially a major guilt trip about all of the people you couldn't save - and to lose another friend to the journey was pretty rough. I also forgot tranquility removes personality too - not just magic - which makes it a little less satisfying - I wanted Erimond to suffer as he was, knowing he could never be a mage again.

 

To respond to this point though, I don't think making him tranquil is a violation of Chantry law because he's a mage from Tevinter where they do not have mandatory Circles and therefore probably do not have the process of harrowing. So he is, in the eyes of Chantry law, still a mage that is eligible for the RoT. On the other hand, I'm a little confused by the arguments against tranquility - if you view tranquility as something intended as an act of mercy for mages who cannot control their powers (who believe that they are unable to pass a harrowing) then it is a legitimate alternative for a mage to death and one that is consciously preferred by at least a reasonable proportion of mages, especially those who know they do not have the willpower necessary to survive a harrowing. If we are arguing that tranquility is cruel and unusual punishment, then that means that it should not be employed under any circumstances, even under the request of one whose only other alternative is death. (Of course, the extension of that is then to not require a harrowing of mages, which removes death as a potential alternative outcome to tranquility, but what are the implications, then, of untested mages running free for all across a society filled mostly with people who are unable to defend themselves from magical power?) 

 

In retrospect, I still think it's the most simultaneously merciful and vengeful decision out of the options - the vengeful part of the question is obvious - it's endlessly satisfying to think about the short period of mental agitation he'll undergo before the ritual, but knowing that it is reversible (if you've completed Cassandra's sidequest) also makes the option merciful. It is, in effect, putting a stay on his final judgement until after the threat of Corypheus is dealt with, at which point you can restore his mind and, with his leader gone, attempt some form of rehabilitation or, that failing, a determination of punishment through a multilateral tribunal of interested parties (Grey Wardens, Orlais, Ferelden, the Inquisition, the Chantry, the Imperium). Also, if we're going to go the insanity route, dangerously mentally challenged criminals aren't always executed either because it's considered more humane to medicate and subdue them - in fact, we still lobotomize our criminally insane, just chemically instead of surgically. It's considered a more merciful option to execution because it still leaves open the potential for future cure (of their illness) - something on which the door is completely shut with a death sentence - regardless of your feelings on being stripped of your emotions and "irrationality." It is also important to realize that tranquility and lobotomy, while similar, are still two very different things. Tranquil can still find pleasure in life, even if the context of the pleasure is altered for them (instead of, say, taking pleasure in the idea of Corypheus destroying the world, Erimond would derive utility in a well organized shelf of books) and are able to function and participate fully in society. The issue most people have with chemical or surgical lobotomy in our society is the fact that those procedures leave a human completely incapacitated - they are no longer able to be a part of human society or capable of retaining any meaningful sense of self. To be honest, if our dangerous mental patients could be treated with a reversible procedure with the effects of tranquility, it would be hailed as a huge medical breakthrough - they would no longer need to be locked up in subhuman conditions, but could rather be allowed to become productive, if wholly rational, members of society again. Remember, tranquility does not remove an individual's sense of self - it simply removes all capacity for irrationality. It would essentially turn an individual into the perfect economic actor - wholly rational, weighing their perceived benefits and costs as well as societal benefits and costs before each action. Moreover, the tranquil you meet in the game, including the tranquil you can recruit in Redcliffe, all exhibit some level of desire and self-awareness. It takes some level of humanity to be willing to die for someone because you perceive that person as having saved you, the way Samson's tranquil did in Cullen's sidequest. I understand that its not a politically popular choice given the circumstances, but I don't view tranquility as an abhorrent or invalid form of punishment - especially since Cassandra proves it can be applied beyond mages to all manner of criminally insane. The key I think would be in setting more clear and objective limitations on its use as opposed to the vague guidelines outlined by the Chantry prior to DA:I - for example, a specification of a term of tranquility before an attempt at rehabilitation is made with the hope of the period of tranquility and the memories of that period proving therapeutic (I forget who said that the tranquil lose all memory of their period of tranquility after being restored, but I don't remember seeing any evidence of this). In that sense, if used as the Seekers do, tranquility would be less of a lobotomy and more of a conscious tranquilizer or sedative. (Put like this, this choice is so much less satisfying. I think I'll throw him to the Orlesians or the Vints after the whole crazy deluded would be god issue is dealt with and I reverse the process - they seem like they would be people who have creative ways of dealing with war criminals) (I'd send him to the Deep Roads but I think he'd be a hazard there even dead - the possessed body of a powerful magister can make for hardy darkspawn)

 

And if we're going further down the theory road, even the objections from the mages would be muffled once the reversal of Tranquility is made public knowledge.

 

Giving him to the Grey Wardens is unfair to them - it's the same reason I stopped Solas from killing the mages in his side quest - if it has to be vicious vengeance, then the least I can do for them after everything they've been through is to dirty my hands instead of theirs.

 

Also, for the record, I think it's fine to punish mages for being mages insofaras mages should be held to a higher standard of accountability from those who are not born with access to magic. Great power great responsibility blahblah but I think it's important to recognize that even if you don't choose to be born with a certain gift or to a certain heritage, it behooves you to be a responsible and moral steward of what you are given. I don't think that should be a difficult idea to impose on a world like Thedas where I'm certain noblesse oblige, even if it isn't exercised in practice at least exists in theory. More is asked of those who are given more, especially those like mages who are capable of great help and great harm. 



#172
Guest_Vultrae_*

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I wish you didn't have to be a mage to make him tranquil. I did it on my mage quizzy but missed that option on my warrior:(



#173
NM_Che56

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tranquility can be reversed.  His death...not so much.