223 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Come on. I knew it was the kid the moment the Catalyst appeared on the screen. I recognized the kids voice - yes there were augmentations and additional voiceovers to make it sound mysterious, but it was still the kid, glowing brightly in the a WTF ending. We also have to remember one glaring fact as to why Shepard didn't recognize him: Shepard is a dumb ass. "I thought Asari needed other species to reproduce."

[Rusted Cage]

I believed the IT for a while there myself. Right up until Extended Cut. For me, extended cut obliterate any real hope of getting IT confirmation. The original ending was so bland, so simple and without any substance to speak of that it practically demanded you to be suspicious that there is more to it. IT asked you to pretend it was a dream, sure, but look at what it asks you to disregard as not being real. The endings were each identical with no real depth to them at all. Its easy to pretend they're just fake dreams, Bioware put zero effort in making them feel like anything other than lazy copy/paste. It was almost as if we weren't suppose to feel like any of them had any credibility of being 'real' in the first place. Then EC comes out and makes each ending quite distinctive from the others.

Me too. I think Bioware also kept tweeting little teasers along the lines of "wait and see" even before the outcry demanded an Extended Cut, another reason why I clung to the IT for a long time. We've discussed in another thread the possibility of the EC not being Bioware's originally planned ending so I won't harp on about it. How I'd love to know the truth, though. Having said all that, if the original and even EC endings weren't supposed to happen, I think DLC like Leviathan is a testament to the strength and depth of Mass Effect's lore that a satisfactory ending could be reached by using already established information.

 

<snip>

 

How does the "catalyst" know what the child looks and sounds like???

 

 

Again....

 

 

HOW DOES THE CATALYST, KNOW WHAT THE CHILD LOOKS AND SOUNDS LIKE????

 

There was ONLY one person who saw the "child". And that same person happens to be the ONLY person to have unified the galaxy against the reaper horde. The same person brought all the galaxies Military might and factions to one final battle. The same person who found the plans for the "Crucible". The same person who found the remaining leviathan. The same person who ACTIVATED THE CITADEL CONTROL PANEL and "ascended" to the decision chamber to make the single most important choice in the history of the universe. 

Ok, the child is still one of the things I'm confused about. Right at the end of the prologue in which nobody seems to see the kid except Shepard (as possibly evidenced by nobody helping him onto the shuttle) is this the actual death of that character, or already a piece of Shepard's imagination? So how can the Catalyst assume this form if not by having access to Shepard's mind? Is that ever explained?

 

 

 

This guy gets a lot of hate. I think we tend to overlook a few things when finding a scapegoat. I'm not entirely sure what Walter's contribution to Mass Effect has been in it's entirety but I remember reading how Garrus, Wrex and the Krogan were his work. That can't be so bad, can it? I think Kai Leng is his but, in deffence of that character, I think he was used effectively in that he strikes at player ego. The result is you can't help but hate him. The fact that he had plot armour and took major decisions away, leaving the player as a helpless bystander at times are what I resent most.

[ImaginaryMatter]

This guy gets a lot of hate. I think we tend to overlook a few things when finding a scapegoat. I'm not entirely sure what Walter's contribution to Mass Effect has been in it's entirety but I remember reading how Garrus, Wrex and the Krogan were his work. That can't be so bad, can it? I think Kai Leng is his but, in deffence of that character, I think he was used effectively in that he strikes at player ego. The result is you can't help but hate him. The fact that he had plot armour and took major decisions away, leaving the player as a helpless bystander at times are what I resent most.

 

Of course I hate him. But I don't hate him as a character. I hate him as a tool of the writers and I'm equally frustrated at them for putting him in the game. Killing him on Cronos Station gave me zero satisfaction. It's an easy thing to make a player frustrated in a video game and it has nothing to do with the talent of a developer; usually it stems from the opposite.

[Vazgen]

I believe the Catalyst can read Shepard's mind. We saw Leviathan appearing as different people when talking to Shepard. I'm pretty sure the Catalyst would be able to figure out that child image, especially since Shepard dreamed of that child through the entire game. In the dreams Shepard chases the child, tries to save him but always fails. The Catalyst assumes that form to basically say "you have another chance to make it right". The thing is in its perception of what is right and wrong, which is completely different from PoV of any organic. 

I like the themes that the ending brings, I don't like the execution. Stuff like raising Shepard to the Crucible chamber, shooting the tube to destroy the Reapers or holding two electrodes to control them or jumping into the energy beam to work some space magic on the entire galaxy.

 

As for Kai Leng, I felt genuinely determined to kill the guy, something I haven't got with any villain in video games. The feeling manifested after the mail from Asari High Command

[Rusted Cage]

I believe the Catalyst can read Shepard's mind. We saw Leviathan appearing as different people when talking to Shepard. I'm pretty sure the Catalyst would be able to figure out that child image, especially since Shepard dreamed of that child through the entire game. In the dreams Shepard chases the child, tries to save him but always fails. The Catalyst assumes that form to basically say "you have another chance to make it right". The thing is in its perception of what is right and wrong, which is completely different from PoV of any organic. 

I like the themes that the ending brings, I don't like the execution. Stuff like raising Shepard to the Crucible chamber, shooting the tube to destroy the Reapers or holding two electrodes to control them or jumping into the energy beam to work some space magic on the entire galaxy.

 

As for Kai Leng, I felt genuinely determined to kill the guy, something I haven't got with any villain in video games. The feeling manifested after the mail from Asari High Command

See, I thought the Leviathan's ability to read minds and mind control from a distance is what gave rise to the reapers power of indoctrination. The Catalyst, being a creation of the Leviathans copied this ability for the Reapers.
I guess the question is, as an advanced AI with the collected memories and experiences of the Reapers but also directly created by the Leviathans, is it's ability to read minds closer to the Leviathan ability or the Reaper ability (along with the added catch of indoctrination)?

 

I like that Kai Leng perspective and it could be argued this was exactly what the writers intended = good writing?

 

Of course I hate him. But I don't hate him as a character. I hate him as a tool of the writers and I'm equally frustrated at them for putting him in the game. Killing him on Cronos Station gave me zero satisfaction. It's an easy thing to make a player frustrated in a video game and it has nothing to do with the talent of a developer; usually it stems from the opposite.

I hated the fact that the scene on Thessia is all about Kai Leng and there is nothing we can do about it. I found that frustrating.  Other than that, I liked him as a villain. His killing of Thane motivated me further, adding a personal stake into the overall grand theme of ME3.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I believe the Catalyst can read Shepard's mind. We saw Leviathan appearing as different people when talking to Shepard. I'm pretty sure the Catalyst would be able to figure out that child image, especially since Shepard dreamed of that child through the entire game. In the dreams Shepard chases the child, tries to save him but always fails. The Catalyst assumes that form to basically say "you have another chance to make it right". The thing is in its perception of what is right and wrong, which is completely different from PoV of any organic. 

I like the themes that the ending brings, I don't like the execution. Stuff like raising Shepard to the Crucible chamber, shooting the tube to destroy the Reapers or holding two electrodes to control them or jumping into the energy beam to work some space magic on the entire galaxy.

 

As for Kai Leng, I felt genuinely determined to kill the guy, something I haven't got with any villain in video games. The feeling manifested after the mail from Asari High Command

 

The Leviathan's mental abilities are very different from the Reapers though, not saying it couldn't be the case but we've never seen the Reapers use such an ability.

 

If the Catalyst's image is supposed to be duct kid I find it strange that Shepard would have nothing to say about it. Like if the child really did cause him so much guilt or whatever and he recognized the Catalyst's form as such (especially considering the practical reasons for questioning an entity that can at least read minds) why didn't it even phase him? I suspect that the Catalyst isn't supposed to be duct kid and is just supposed to be the generic child symbolism for new beginnings, that BioWare just reused the big assets that they has and disguised it with the wisp affect and different voices.

[Vazgen]

The Leviathan's mental abilities are very different from the Reapers though, not saying it couldn't be the case but we've never seen the Reapers use such an ability.

 

If the Catalyst's image is supposed to be duct kid I find it strange that Shepard would have nothing to say about it. Like if the child really did cause him so much guilt or whatever and he recognized the Catalyst's form as such (especially considering the practical reasons for questioning an entity that can at least read minds) why didn't it even phase him? I suspect that the Catalyst isn't supposed to be duct kid and is just supposed to be the generic child symbolism for new beginnings, that BioWare just reused the big assets that they has and disguised it with the wisp affect and different voices.

My guess is that it is definitely clear that the kid is a hologram. The scene flows quite naturally with Shepard not asking about why the intelligence has chosen this particular image. I like to think that my Shepard is intelligent enough to figure out that the image is from his own mind. Sometimes that character is very hard to roleplay though (comparing genophage to the First Contact War)...

[Linkenski]

Bioware were aware that their ending sucked even before they released the game IIRC, due to the story-files leak and the fans who spoiled themselves with it, making fun of EDI being a sex-bot and the catalyst conversation. Bioware was in full damage control preparation before they released it with statements from Mike Gamble and Casey Hudson going "Perhaps the ending won't satisfy everyone!" just a month before the game released.

 

They knew they had fucked up when they saw the reaction to the leaked script in october 2011... their response was to just cut out lines from the final dialogue (lines that were reinserted in the Extended Cut like Catalyst saying "I was created eons ago to solve a problem") because Casey thought keeping it "high-level" and vague would somehow make everyone see the ending differently.

[Valmar]

Genuin curiosity; such as?

 

Before I elaborate allow me to point out that I said it was a few nuggets of insight. So don't get hopes up expecting huge revelations.

 

I have written up on this subject quite a bit (for which I call "The Reaper Perspective") before in the past so you'll forgive me if I try to summarize it up rather briefly and rely on some good ol' copy/paste of my original work. However because of copy/pasting not EVERYTHING mentioned is solely added by from ashes (such as the prothean beacons, obviously) but it should help for context.

 

The reapers view what they do to organics as a form of preservation. We see evidence and indeed validity to this claim in the series several times but From Ashes adds more context to this perspective. Begin the paste:

 

The protheans had a most incredible ability in that they could transfer, share or store knowledge, memories and even experiences from one prothean to another. The Asari, to a lesser extent, have similar abilities with mild-melding but it does not truly compare to the full extent of what the prothean physiology allowed. They could 'sense' very intimate details about others just by being in a room that the other was once in, in some cases months after that person had left.

 

Anyone who has played the 'From Ashes' dlc likely remembers Javik's ability to sense past crew members on the Normandy. It wasn't vague, either, he could go into quite some detail about them. Such as Thane having a sickness, Grunt being confused withed implanted memories and Miranda being unnaturally created. For those unfamiliar, here is a youtube video referring to the conversation in question. [link]

 

Of course it goes even deeper than just sensing others feelings and genetic structure through left-over residue. Protheans can share information with one another instantly through touch. The Asari are similar in this regard with their mind-melding but not quite as robust. Just by having Shepard touch him Javik was able to not only able to instantly understand human language and speak it, he also shared the memories of his last moments before entering the stasis pod he was preserved in.

 

To quote the wiki on this matter:

 

“A unique attribute of Prothean physiology is an experiential exchange system based on physical touch. By touching something or someone, a Prothean could recall its experiences. This system can transfer complex ideas, with a Prothean being capable of learning a new skill or foreign language with a single touch. “

 

The protheans were able to create devices that harness this ability. The beacons, such as the one Commander Shepard encountered on Eden Prime, is one such example as the device was able to transfer information directly into the users mind. However the prothean's accomplishments go beyond just the beacons. Perhaps one of their most interesting yet greatly over-looked creations is the Echo Shard.

 

 

These 'echo shards' may not seem all that astonishing but consider this: these little pieces of technology are capable of storing memories, experiences, emotions, and knowledge. Not unlike the beacons themselves but seemingly more elaborate and with a broader scope of what it can store. Soldiers would pass them down from one to another to get glimpses of what life used to be. Individuals also seem to be able to place their own memories and experience into the shards by touching them, without need of being protheans themselves.

 

Wiki quote:

“If you encourage Javik to relive it, he'll pass the Echo Shard to Shepard for him to add his memories to it”

 

Here is a video providing the first conversation you have with Javik where he goes over his species sensory abilities and other such prothean-focused trivia, if anyones interested: [link]

 

Given that we know now, thanks to Javik telling us, that all our knowledge, experience and memories are biological markers that can be read, saved and stored on technology, is it really so hard to understand why the reapers view what they do as being 'preservation' of life? Instead of having the entire species go completely extinct they save it and store it in immortal machine bodies. It is life, just not life as we know it.

 

/End paste.

 

Lastly Javik provides us with some history about the prothean cycle which, interestingly enough, adds credence to the pattern of conflict between organics and machines that the billion+ year old catalyst and even older Leviathan's claims exists.

 

Wiki: "Early in their development, the Protheans encountered a hostile machine intelligence which threatened to overwhelm them. To defeat the machines, the Protheans decided to unite all of the galaxy's sentient organic life under their empire. The other organic races were free to resist, but those that tried were crushed, and none ever managed to best the Protheans' might. In time, each of the subjugated races assimilated into Prothean culture and came to think of themselves as Prothean. United under a single cause, the Prothean Empire successfully held off the enemy machines in a conflict known as the "Metacon War"."

 

The protheans learned very early on the dangers of machines.

 

In summery, From Ashes adds more context to understanding why the Reapers consider the harvest to be 'preservation' and adds extra support to the argument of their being a pattern of synthetic conflict.. It adds important context to understanding their perspective, imo. It is also important to note that this is, mostly, just what From Ashes added and doesn't represent ALL the support for the perspective in the trilogy. There is a lot more in the lore that adds context and support for the above mentioned subjects (preservation, pattern of conflict) but what I mentioned is just things that From Ashes specifically added.

 

 

 

Ok, the child is still one of the things I'm confused about. Right at the end of the prologue in which nobody seems to see the kid except Shepard (as possibly evidenced by nobody helping him onto the shuttle) is this the actual death of that character, or already a piece of Shepard's imagination? So how can the Catalyst assume this form if not by having access to Shepard's mind? Is that ever explained?

 

 

No explanation is given. Which leads you to two possible conclusions.

 

1. It isn't meant to be the same kid and is just a recycled art asset (something Bioware does all the time).

2. IT.

 

IMO, since its clear IT isn't real I have to go with number one. It's the only thing that makes sense within the story given to us. Again, imo.

 

 

This guy gets a lot of hate. I think we tend to overlook a few things when finding a scapegoat. I'm not entirely sure what Walter's contribution to Mass Effect has been in it's entirety but I remember reading how Garrus, Wrex and the Krogan were his work. That can't be so bad, can it? I think Kai Leng is his but, in deffence of that character, I think he was used effectively in that he strikes at player ego. The result is you can't help but hate him. The fact that he had plot armour and took major decisions away, leaving the player as a helpless bystander at times are what I resent most.

 

From what I understand it's really Casey that should be getting the hate. Rumor is that he's the one who took over the writing in the end and came up with the ending himself without peer-review. Though, far as I know, that's just rumor leaked to us by someone who allegedly worked at Bioware. No idea if its true but... it seems consistent with what we get. Lol.

 

As for Kai Leng I still feel like they should had handled him better. I admit I did end up hating him so mission accomplished but it felt like such a blunt way to get us to hate the guy. He sends up mocking emails for crying out loud - what is this highschool? It's actually kind of funny really, the character's personality should had given us enough reasons to hate him (he's supposed to be quite the racist, pro-human anti-alien) yet the game never really uses it . It gets us to hate him for completely different reasons. The hate I had for him was... well, generic. If that makes any sense....

 

 

Of course I hate him. But I don't hate him as a character. I hate him as a tool of the writers and I'm equally frustrated at them for putting him in the game. Killing him on Cronos Station gave me zero satisfaction. It's an easy thing to make a player frustrated in a video game and it has nothing to do with the talent of a developer; usually it stems from the opposite.

 

I got some satisfaction from it but only because he killed Thane. Which sucks because there was a lot of potential there that could had made us despise him. I do love that he is in the game though, even if I'm not happy with the execution. When I found out a character from the novels was going to be in the game I was really excited.

 

Personally Kai could have earned my hate and rage a lot better had he actually behaved like the xenophobe he's meant to be. My Shep's LI and best friend were both aliens - Kai should have used that. Make it more personal. Like you, I hate him more as a tool than I do as an actual character.

 

 

I believe the Catalyst can read Shepard's mind. We saw Leviathan appearing as different people when talking to Shepard. I'm pretty sure the Catalyst would be able to figure out that child image, especially since Shepard dreamed of that child through the entire game. In the dreams Shepard chases the child, tries to save him but always fails. The Catalyst assumes that form to basically say "you have another chance to make it right". The thing is in its perception of what is right and wrong, which is completely different from PoV of any organic.

 

Interesting take on it. Though still find it a bit odd that, if it really IS the kid, why wouldn't Shepard mention it? In the Leviathan visions Shepard makes notice that Leviathan takes the form of Ann Bryson. With the catalyst we don't get a "how are you here? " "You're..." or anything like that. We just get "Where am I? Who are you?" No indication that Shepard noticed it was the kid.

 

Though, in the end of the day, since its never explained to us one way or another, both interprations are ultimately valid. It could be that it isn't meant to literally be the same form as the kid and its just Bioware reusing an art asset... or it could be it took form of the child from knowledge read from Shepard's head.

 

I will say this however. When Leviathan did it not only does Shepard immediately take notice of it but the leviathan also gives explanation to it. The fact that they never did that with the starbrat even after Extended Cut suggests to me that we're reading too much into the fact that its the same model as the kid.

 

We've also never seen the reapers being able to do something like this, like ImaginaryMatter mentions. The only times the reapers have been able to read someones mind has been when they're indoctrinated with nanites, if my memory serves me right.

 

 

See, I thought the Leviathan's ability to read minds and mind control from a distance is what gave rise to the reapers power of indoctrination. The Catalyst, being a creation of the Leviathans copied this ability for the Reapers.
I guess the question is, as an advanced AI with the collected memories and experiences of the Reapers but also directly created by the Leviathans, is it's ability to read minds closer to the Leviathan ability or the Reaper ability (along with the added catch of indoctrination)?

 

 

Indoctrination seems to be quite independent from.... Leviathanation. While its possible that this is something gained from the Leviathans, it seems somewhat unlikely to me. The Leviathan's form of indoctrination is different and in some ways actually superior. Also consider this:

 

Leviathan: "Each reaper has the power to influence organics. Over cycles, this ability was refined, perfected, and gave rise to the indoctrination."

 

Though its definitely possible, I wouldn't rule it out.

[Obadiah]

I think the references from Mass Effect to the Bible or mythology are mostly direct references to specific individuals or stories, and not meant to be taken collectively as a retelling of some specific mythical story.

[Rusted Cage]

Before I elaborate allow me to point out that I said it was a few nuggets of insight. So don't get hopes up expecting huge revelations.

 

I have written up on this subject quite a bit (for which I call "The Reaper Perspective") before in the past so you'll forgive me if I try to summarize it up rather briefly and rely on some good ol' copy/paste of my original work. However because of copy/pasting not EVERYTHING mentioned is solely added by from ashes (such as the prothean beacons, obviously) but it should help for context.

 

The reapers view what they do to organics as a form of preservation. We see evidence and indeed validity to this claim in the series several times but From Ashes adds more context to this perspective. Begin the paste:

 

The protheans had a most incredible ability in that they could transfer, share or store knowledge, memories and even experiences from one prothean to another. The Asari, to a lesser extent, have similar abilities with mild-melding but it does not truly compare to the full extent of what the prothean physiology allowed. They could 'sense' very intimate details about others just by being in a room that the other was once in, in some cases months after that person had left.

 

Anyone who has played the 'From Ashes' dlc likely remembers Javik's ability to sense past crew members on the Normandy. It wasn't vague, either, he could go into quite some detail about them. Such as Thane having a sickness, Grunt being confused withed implanted memories and Miranda being unnaturally created. For those unfamiliar, here is a youtube video referring to the conversation in question. [link]

 

Of course it goes even deeper than just sensing others feelings and genetic structure through left-over residue. Protheans can share information with one another instantly through touch. The Asari are similar in this regard with their mind-melding but not quite as robust. Just by having Shepard touch him Javik was able to not only able to instantly understand human language and speak it, he also shared the memories of his last moments before entering the stasis pod he was preserved in.

 

To quote the wiki on this matter:

 

“A unique attribute of Prothean physiology is an experiential exchange system based on physical touch. By touching something or someone, a Prothean could recall its experiences. This system can transfer complex ideas, with a Prothean being capable of learning a new skill or foreign language with a single touch. “

 

The protheans were able to create devices that harness this ability. The beacons, such as the one Commander Shepard encountered on Eden Prime, is one such example as the device was able to transfer information directly into the users mind. However the prothean's accomplishments go beyond just the beacons. Perhaps one of their most interesting yet greatly over-looked creations is the Echo Shard.

 

 

These 'echo shards' may not seem all that astonishing but consider this: these little pieces of technology are capable of storing memories, experiences, emotions, and knowledge. Not unlike the beacons themselves but seemingly more elaborate and with a broader scope of what it can store. Soldiers would pass them down from one to another to get glimpses of what life used to be. Individuals also seem to be able to place their own memories and experience into the shards by touching them, without need of being protheans themselves.

 

Wiki quote:

“If you encourage Javik to relive it, he'll pass the Echo Shard to Shepard for him to add his memories to it”

 

Here is a video providing the first conversation you have with Javik where he goes over his species sensory abilities and other such prothean-focused trivia, if anyones interested: [link]

 

Given that we know now, thanks to Javik telling us, that all our knowledge, experience and memories are biological markers that can be read, saved and stored on technology, is it really so hard to understand why the reapers view what they do as being 'preservation' of life? Instead of having the entire species go completely extinct they save it and store it in immortal machine bodies. It is life, just not life as we know it.

 

/End paste.

 

Lastly Javik provides us with some history about the prothean cycle which, interestingly enough, adds credence to the pattern of conflict between organics and machines that the billion+ year old catalyst and even older Leviathan's claims exists.

 

Wiki: "Early in their development, the Protheans encountered a hostile machine intelligence which threatened to overwhelm them. To defeat the machines, the Protheans decided to unite all of the galaxy's sentient organic life under their empire. The other organic races were free to resist, but those that tried were crushed, and none ever managed to best the Protheans' might. In time, each of the subjugated races assimilated into Prothean culture and came to think of themselves as Prothean. United under a single cause, the Prothean Empire successfully held off the enemy machines in a conflict known as the "Metacon War"."

 

The protheans learned very early on the dangers of machines.

 

In summery, From Ashes adds more context to understanding why the Reapers consider the harvest to be 'preservation' and adds extra support to the argument of their being a pattern of synthetic conflict.. It adds important context to understanding their perspective, imo. It is also important to note that this is, mostly, just what From Ashes added and doesn't represent ALL the support for the perspective in the trilogy. There is a lot more in the lore that adds context and support for the above mentioned subjects (preservation, pattern of conflict) but what I mentioned is just things that From Ashes specifically added.

 

<snip>

This is great stuff Valmar, very well written and concise. I recall I started a thread back in the old days about the Protheans abilities which now I wish I had your opinion on, specifically a scientifically plausible discussion on biological markers. I'll link to it in case anyone feels like talking this Prothean thing further. I was shot down repeatedly in my attempts to convey what I meant, but you seem to share my desire to rationalise ME's more bizarre concepts.

 

<Snip>

 

No explanation is given. Which leads you to two possible conclusions.

 

1. It isn't meant to be the same kid and is just a recycled art asset (something Bioware does all the time).

2. IT.

 

IMO, since its clear IT isn't real I have to go with number one. It's the only thing that makes sense within the story given to us. Again, imo....

 

...I will say this however. When Leviathan did it not only does Shepard immediately take notice of it but the leviathan also gives explanation to it. The fact that they never did that with the starbrat even after Extended Cut suggests to me that we're reading too much into the fact that its the same model as the kid.

As much as I want to dismiss the significance of the child I don't think I can. The fact that he consistently crops up at major moments in the story including the ending demonstrates to me that there was an obvious intent on the writer's behalf to link the child we see throughout and the child we see as the Catalyst. I agree with everything you say logically - that given the fact the Indoctrination Theory is debunked by the Extended Cut, the kid cannot be evidence of Indoctrination -  but to my conspiracy theorist brain it is further evidence that the original idea linking all these things together had been changed, the Starchild being left as a loose end. Making the IT a plausible original plan.
 

Valmar

Indoctrination seems to be quite independent from.... Leviathanation. While its possible that this is something gained from the Leviathans, it seems somewhat unlikely to me. The Leviathan's form of indoctrination is different and in some ways actually superior. Also consider this:

 

Leviathan: "Each reaper has the power to influence organics. Over cycles, this ability was refined, perfected, and gave rise to the indoctrination."

 

Though its definitely possible, I wouldn't rule it out.

 

That's the line of dialogue I was referring to when I said:

 

"See, I thought the Leviathan's ability to read minds and mind control from a distance is what gave rise to the reapers power of indoctrination. The Catalyst, being a creation of the Leviathans, copied this ability for the Reapers."

 

So my question is, if we assume for a moment the Catalyst is appearing in the form of the child because it can read Shep's mind, is it's ability closer to the "superior" Leviathanation ( ), a seemingly organic ability, or the Reaper's synthetic Indoctrination which is a perversion of the original? Basically, does the idea of the Catalyst appearing in a form only significant to Shepard undermine anything?

 

My guess is that it is definitely clear that the kid is a hologram. The scene flows quite naturally with Shepard not asking about why the intelligence has chosen this particular image. I like to think that my Shepard is intelligent enough to figure out that the image is from his own mind. Sometimes that character is very hard to roleplay though (comparing genophage to the First Contact War)...

I have issues dealing with that too. Sometimes Shepard hirself breaks my immersion without intending too by coming out with such stupidity

On the subject of the kid, having the Catalyst assume a form only significant to Shepard is "too many" for me. The significance of it, I can't help feeling, adds to the validity of the IT. It certainly raises questions which are not answered.

The only other alternative is that it is a reused asset as Valmar says. While that is certainly plausible, the presence of the kid throughout suggests a deeper meaning for the Starchild.

[Kabooooom]

This is great stuff Valmar, very well written and concise. I recall I started a thread back in the old days about the Protheans abilities which now I wish I had your opinion on, specifically a scientifically plausible discussion on biological markers. I'll link to it in case anyone feels like talking this Prothean thing further. I was shot down repeatedly in my attempts to convey what I meant, but you seem to share my desire to rationalise ME's more bizarre concepts.

Your interpretation of Javik's abilities mirrors my own, although I have never made a thread about it as it is my own opinion. However, as a veterinary doctor, I agree with you that Javik's seemingly unique sensory ability to "read" from the environment is extremely similar to capabilities already present in animals on Earth: specifically, olfaction.

The following is long and off-topic, but I didn't want to necro his thread. Hopefully someone will find it interesting and/or insightful.

Most people dont realize this, as we are primates and the majority of our species does not study in detail the capabilities of other species - instead making generalizations from our own...but in actuality, the sense which conveys the MOST specific information about the environment is olfaction. Not vision. Not hearing. Not touch or taste or proprioception, but olfaction. For this reason, the vast majority of animals on Earth currently and throughout Earth's history have or had extensive olfactory capabilities, and dedicate a sizable portion (and in some species the majority) of the processing power of their brain to it.

The reason for this is because it is actually possible to detect differences between individual molecules on the order of single atoms via olfactory receptors, and there are a vast number of unique molecules that could hypothetically be detected. Everywhere an organic being goes, they shed molecules which are reflective of their biology: Their metabolism, their emotional state, etc. If these are not degraded by bacteria, UV light, carried off by convection - they will persist in the environment.

So how specific can this sensory information be? In the past decade or two, we have discovered that the information conveyed by olfaction to dogs is remarkably specific. We know they can not only detect cancer, but differentiate between kinds of cancer. They can detect the equivalent of a teaspoon of sugar in an Olympic sized swimming pool. They can detect and are trained to respond to the onset of a diabetic crisis, and subtle biochemical clues before the onset of a seizure. They can track an individual across miles of open terrain when the person passed that way hours to days prior. They perceive social information about social position, sex and sexual status, and most likely physical status and quality of health from urine and anal gland secretions that are used to mark territory. They can smell the chemical response of the body to emotion. And this makes evolutionary sense too for a social animal - the ability to detect when others are in fear, for example, without actually seeing them or being in physical or temporal proximity is particularly useful for evading potential threats.

Imagine if an animal as intelligent as a human had a sense of olfaction as developed as that. Imagine going to a doctor. It'd be a different sort of experience. They could literally sense disease on you. They could tell you that you had diabetes, or cancer, within moments of you walking in the room. As primates, we have a pitiful olfactory sense. For our ancestors, vision was more important. Vision can provide extremely rapid information about the environment and is most sensitive for detecting when that information changes in time. But with regards to olfaction, we are blind. We are worse than blind, actually. A blind man knows that there is a visual world he can't perceive, but can formulate a spatial conception of the environment based on other sensory information. For olfaction, we have no conceptual framework at all of the chemical information that is imperceptible to us. It would be like a man blind from birth trying to perceive the color red, except worse, as it would be more equivalent to trying to perceive a color that you didn't know existed in the first place and for which you had no word.

That is the sort of sensory capability that Javik describes himself as having. Indeed, he describes detecting "residue" of organic life. Indeed, he even physically touches objects to enhance this ability, which underscores that the ability is firmly physical and not metaphysical in any way. Additionally, this would make sense if he had olfactory receptors on the entirety of his skin. Furthermore, he compulsively washes his hands to remove this residue - more evidence in favor of some sort of chemical detection, the Earth analog of which is olfaction. Moreover, Protheans appear to be, evolutionarily speaking, predatory in nature - and this ability is widespread in predators on Earth. Protheans just take it to another level...although not that much higher of a level than what I have already described as possible in the real world.

If you watch the behavior of a dog, you will often see them compulsively and repetitively sniff the environment at length. But preferentially, they will only do this when entering a new environment or an old environment in which other animals have entered since they last visited. They are, quite literally, "reading" information from the environment. What kind of information? We are only just now beginning to figure that out, and what we have figured out so far is mind-boggling and so far outside of our perception that it is virtually alien to our mind.

That was long, but hopefully interesting coming from someone who has dedicated their life to understanding how other species live theirs.

[Vazgen]

Interesting take on it. Though still find it a bit odd that, if it really IS the kid, why wouldn't Shepard mention it? In the Leviathan visions Shepard makes notice that Leviathan takes the form of Ann Bryson. With the catalyst we don't get a "how are you here? " "You're..." or anything like that. We just get "Where am I? Who are you?" No indication that Shepard noticed it was the kid.

 

Though, in the end of the day, since its never explained to us one way or another, both interprations are ultimately valid. It could be that it isn't meant to literally be the same form as the kid and its just Bioware reusing an art asset... or it could be it took form of the child from knowledge read from Shepard's head.

 

I will say this however. When Leviathan did it not only does Shepard immediately take notice of it but the leviathan also gives explanation to it. The fact that they never did that with the starbrat even after Extended Cut suggests to me that we're reading too much into the fact that its the same model as the kid.

 

We've also never seen the reapers being able to do something like this, like ImaginaryMatter mentions. The only times the reapers have been able to read someones mind has been when they're indoctrinated with nanites, if my memory serves me right.

 

Indoctrination seems to be quite independent from.... Leviathanation. While its possible that this is something gained from the Leviathans, it seems somewhat unlikely to me. The Leviathan's form of indoctrination is different and in some ways actually superior. Also consider this:

 

Leviathan: "Each reaper has the power to influence organics. Over cycles, this ability was refined, perfected, and gave rise to the indoctrination."

 

Though its definitely possible, I wouldn't rule it out.

Shepard doesn't really know the kid. He does not know his name, age, parents etc. All there is in Shepard's mind is the image of that kid dying - image of failure and him being powerless. So if Shepard was to address the Catalyst's appearance he should've said "Are you that kid from Earth?" or "Why do you look similar to that kid from Earth?" which doesn't really make sense. "What kid?" would be a most appropriate response IT conveniently points out that Shepard is the only one who has seen the kid. Where else could the Catalyst get that image?

Reapers can send images into people's minds. It is shown on the Derelict Reaper where scientists started to hallucinate without any nanite implantation. Also, Reaper indoctrination might be much more advanced that Leviathan mind control. They had ages to actively test and perfect it after all

It is certainly possible that it's just a reused asset. But in that case, what other kids have we seen in the entire trilogy? Why pick an image of a kid at all?

[Valmar]

This is great stuff Valmar, very well written and concise. I recall I started a thread back in the old days about the Protheans abilities which now I wish I had your opinion on, specifically a scientifically plausible discussion on biological markers. I'll link to it in case anyone feels like talking this Prothean thing further. I was shot down repeatedly in my attempts to convey what I meant, but you seem to share my desire to rationalise ME's more bizarre concepts.

 

 

Thank you. It's a small part of a larger document I worked up a while back. In fact it was what made me view the story in an entirely new light. It started off as just being my intrepration, fanfiction basically - my way to coming up with a theory that explained things I took issue with. The deeper I looked the more I realized "Hey, this is actually true in the lore, Im not just making up stuff, all this is actually explained in the story!" It was quite the epiphany really. Quite humbling as well as it brought to light just how much of the lore I /thought/ I knew but was in reality completely ignorant about. Though to avoid hating myself too much I cast a lot of blame to the fanbase that continuously perpetuate misinformation.

 

Sadly even after all the work I never did share the document, outside of this topic really. The realization that all I was doing was reciting lore facts and not really bringing anything 'new' to the table made it seem redunant. Anyway, it would had been nice to be here at the time of your topic, yes. You brought up some interesting things to consider. Personally I know very little about the reality of these things as far as actual real-world science goes. Though the insight you brought up about animals and furthermore "In Exile"'s explanation of the real-world science was quite interesting.

 

Personally, I'd love to see more talk like that on the forums. During the first few years I spent most of my time only in the MP section and used other ME fan forums to discuss Mass Effect stuff simply because these forums were too full of nothing but hate and bitterness. It still is, really, but its tamed a bit. Still does seem rare to see we get any new topic that isn't related to the ending. Even with topics that have nothing to do with the ending someone usually finds a way to weasel in remarks about the ending in their replies.

 

Sorry about that rambling self-jerk. Moving on.

 

 

As much as I want to dismiss the significance of the child I don't think I can. The fact that he consistently crops up at major moments in the story including the ending demonstrates to me that there was an obvious intent on the writer's behalf to link the child we see throughout and the child we see as the Catalyst. I agree with everything you say logically - that given the fact the Indoctrination Theory is debunked by the Extended Cut, the kid cannot be evidence of Indoctrination -  but to my conspiracy theorist brain it is further evidence that the original idea linking all these things together had been changed, the Starchild being left as a loose end. Making the IT a plausible original plan.

 

Its definitely plausible in terms of headcanon. The fact that the kid IS the same model is definitely something that should be addressed given the significance of the role. They could had at least tried to alter the base model. Sure it is distorted and wispy but... come on. Lazy. The thing for me though is that, well, its simpler to just assume it isn't meant to be the exact kid from Shepard's dreams and is just art being recycled. Is it a simplistic view? Yes, but it doesn't bring with it any questions or confusion.

 

If we consider the catalyst as having the literal form of the kid it brings with it many questions. Mainly the how and why. How does it have this image of the kid? How does it know its significance to Shepard? Why is it using this form? Why doesn't Shepard seem to react or notice?

 

If we consider it isn't, in the lore, meant to be literally the same kid and this is just a case of them modifying a pre-existing model (coincidentally the only child model in the game) then we can just accept it as-is, those previous red-flags do not arise.

 

I'm reminded of a character in the first game. The hologram of a character who was supposed to be the instigator of the Blitz. In the lore it is supposed to be a turian but due to an oversight on Bioware's part it uses a human model. We cannot always take the models at face value. Just because we as the player can tell that the catalyst is a modified use of the same art asset the child uses doesn't mean it is literally the kid within the lore.

 

Also the Art of Mass Effect 3 book mentions the child. It has a little section dedicated to him. In this section they never bring up the catalyst or show the catalyst model.

 

"One child would be the face of the people on Earth whom Shepard could not save."

 

 

 

That's the line of dialogue I was referring to when I said:

 

"See, I thought the Leviathan's ability to read minds and mind control from a distance is what gave rise to the reapers power of indoctrination. The Catalyst, being a creation of the Leviathans, copied this ability for the Reapers."

 

So my question is, if we assume for a moment the Catalyst is appearing in the form of the child because it can read Shep's mind, is it's ability closer to the "superior" Leviathanation ( ), a seemingly organic ability, or the Reaper's synthetic Indoctrination which is a perversion of the original? Basically, does the idea of the Catalyst appearing in a form only significant to Shepard undermine anything?

 

 

That's the thing though I don't believe the reapers CAN read the minds of others without nanites. Leviathan clearly doesn't need nanites to read or control people, hence why I say its superior in ways. Reaper indoctrination comes in a few forms. One is subtle and due to close proximity. Some kind of signal is sent out that messes with your head. This method doesn't actually control the subject, per se, but just wears away at their resolve until they obey the commands.

 

It is like a voice in your head constantly telling you what to do. Do this, do this, do this, do this, obey, obey, obey. It can't really MAKE you do it but eventually it 'breaks' you and your mind gives in, learning to follow its commands to stop the constant pressure of being mentally yelled at. Where as if the reapers want to have absolute control of your body they use nanites, i.e. husks.

 

They can, however, seemingly, implant memories in your head. Though this isn't the same as actually taking thoughts out of your head. Without the nanites we seem to act more like receivers, not transmitters.

 

I believe it feasible that the power originally stems from the leviathans but to what extent I cannot say. Harbinger, the first reaper, was built from the essence of the leviathans. Its possible that by using their dna it acquired a rudimentary version of what the Leviathan's had. I don't see it being the same thing, though, even if its uses it as a bases. It is possible that it IS the same, but I just don't see it as the case.

 

Leviathan and Reaper indoctrination both seem pretty distinct in their methods, capabilities and side-effects. Not to mention the fact that ALL reapers have this power and not all reapers are designed around a species that can control organics like the Leviathan (only Harbinger is) so it seems to me that their power is purely technological.

 

No, though, I don't think the idea that the catalyst is using the form of the kid from Shepard's dreams actually undermines anything. It just doesn't seem consistent with whats in the game, imo. It just brings with it a lot of speculation as to the how and why. Remember that Shepard never notices or seems to react to the kid. This is a bigger issue I have with it then the 'how and why' speculation. It just seems like we're looking for answers to a question that isn't meant to be asked, you know? Assuming its the kid makes it more complicated than it needs to be because then you have to also come up with speculation for the how and why.

 

 

 

The only other alternative is that it is a reused asset as Valmar says. While that is certainly plausible, the presence of the kid throughout suggests a deeper meaning for the Starchild.

 

To be fair, ImaginaryMatter is the one that brought it up first. I just happen to agree with him. I'm fine with people using the catalyst to support IT. Afterall it IS the same asset as the child so you can't really rule it out. The difference is really what one you prefer to go with. For me, I prefer lore and canon, not speculation and fanfiction. For me IT isn't true because, well, it isn't true. It wasn't all a dream, the ends are real. The catalyst being the kid, imo, helps one at the risk of hurting the other. It helps the IT but it hurts the real ending by bringing up questions and confusion. It gives greater sense to one while making the other more confusing.

 

 

 

[snip]

 

That was incredibly informative and I thank you very much for your input. Seriously awesome stuff.

 

 

Shepard doesn't really know the kid. He does not know his name, age, parents etc. All there is in Shepard's mind is the image of that kid dying - image of failure and him being powerless. So if Shepard was to address the Catalyst's appearance he should've said "Are you that kid from Earth?" or "Why do you look similar to that kid from Earth?" which doesn't really make sense. "What kid?" would be a most appropriate response IT conveniently points out that Shepard is the only one who has seen the kid. Where else could the Catalyst get that image?

 

Considering the impact that kid had on Shepard's life and has been haunting his dreams through the game (which last months) I would think he would say SOMETHING.

 

 

 

Reapers can send images into people's minds. It is shown on the Derelict Reaper where scientists started to hallucinate without any nanite implantation. Also, Reaper indoctrination might be much more advanced that Leviathan mind control. They had ages to actively test and perfect it after all

 

Yes, I know. Sending images into peoples heads isn't the same thing as reading from them, though. Which they can do, certainly, but in the lore, afaik it only works that way when the thrall is injected with nanites and not 'only' a signal.

 

I wasn't meaning to say Leviathanation is superior to reaper indoctrination, generally speaking. Only that it is, in some aspects, superior. If reaper indoctrination was really just a refined and improved version of the Leviathan's then it would stand to reason that it would be better in all aspects, right?

 

 

It is certainly possible that it's just a reused asset. But in that case, what other kids have we seen in the entire trilogy? Why pick an image of a kid at all?

 

The fact that there are no other kids in the game is only a better reason to assume its a reused asset, imo. They had no other kid model to use. As for why they went with a kid... good question. Symbolism up to yingyang. There are a million and one different reasons you could speculate for this - none of which involve you needing to believe in IT.

[Vazgen]

I don't believe in IT, but I'd rather have it be the same kid and roleplay that Shepard simply acknowledges that it's a hologram using images from his own mind, rather than it's an arbitrary kid. It makes it easier for me to roleplay and well, is more fun We've seen Leviathans reading his mind (and they made the first Reaper) so I can believe that.

[Valmar]

I getcha. I like to pretend the Consort is an ardat yakshi.... lol

[Rusted Cage]

Your interpretation of Javik's abilities mirrors my own, although I have never made a thread about it as it is my own opinion. However, as a veterinary doctor, I agree with you that Javik's seemingly unique sensory ability to "read" from the environment is extremely similar to capabilities already present in animals on Earth: specifically, olfaction.

<snip>

Brilliant insight in that post, love it! I urge you to start a topic or resurrect mine because I have questions, so many questions....

 

 

Valmar quote
Personally, I'd love to see more talk like that on the forums. During the first few years I spent most of my time only in the MP section and used other ME fan forums to discuss Mass Effect stuff simply because these forums were too full of nothing but hate and bitterness. It still is, really, but its tamed a bit. Still does seem rare to see we get any new topic that isn't related to the ending. Even with topics that have nothing to do with the ending someone usually finds a way to weasel in remarks about the ending in their replies.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd like to see more genuine depth than bitching here too, even if the topic is about he endings. After all this time they are still emotive, but more than anything I like to hear other people's interpretations on all ME aspects, even the little things.

 

That's the thing though I don't believe the reapers CAN read the minds of others without nanites. Leviathan clearly doesn't need nanites to read or control people, hence why I say its superior in ways. Reaper indoctrination comes in a few forms. One is subtle and due to close proximity. Some kind of signal is sent out that messes with your head. This method doesn't actually control the subject, per se, but just wears away at their resolve until they obey the commands.

 

It is like a voice in your head constantly telling you what to do. Do this, do this, do this, do this, obey, obey, obey. It can't really MAKE you do it but eventually it 'breaks' you and your mind gives in, learning to follow its commands to stop the constant pressure of being mentally yelled at. Where as if the reapers want to have absolute control of your body they use nanites, i.e. husks.

 

They can, however, seemingly, implant memories in your head. Though this isn't the same as actually taking thoughts out of your head. Without the nanites we seem to act more like receivers, not transmitters.

 

My wife bought me the Mass Effect Library Edition for Christmas, my first foray into the world of Mass Effect (indeed any) comics. I've just finished reading the Evolution series which is way better than I had been led to believe and I thought it was a really good story. I liked the mentions of Clarke's Laws throughout, another link to 2001 A Space Odyssey and the ME series.

 

The reason I bring it up now is because of the Arca Monolith and how, because of it's way of indoctrination which seems to use nanites, is also able to allow for the extraction of information about a given subject straight from the user's mind. One of the indoctrinated characters says that "they know about us now, about humanity, because of me." The character is still able to retain some will of his own, until the Reapers decide otherwise that is.

 

So I do share your interpretation of most of what we've discussed, but the Destroy ending (which I have always head-cannoned as a sort of Reaper Code targeting signal) along with Starkid's warning that Shepard would also die along with all Synthetic life, further reinforces the idea that the appearance of the child straight form Shep's mind means he is also implanted with nanites. If I have to change my interpretation towards that ending, I wouldn't know how to begin.

 

Now, this isn't a pro IT piece here. I'm with you in the belief the EC categorically shuts that idea down. Whatever could, should or may have been simply isn't now. That said, it leaves me with the uncomfortable conclusion that "we're looking for answers to a question that isn't meant to be asked" as you put it.

[Valmar]

Brilliant insight in that post, love it! I urge you to start a topic or resurrect mine because I have questions, so many questions....

 

I support this notion. I wouldn't have anything useful to add to it myself but I'd be fascinated to hear more from someone who has knowledge in the real-world science of these things.

 

 

I'd like to see more genuine depth than bitching here too, even if the topic is about he endings. After all this time they are still emotive, but more than anything I like to hear other people's interpretations on all ME aspects, even the little things.
 

 

Definitely. One of my favorite topics here in recent memory was one talking about the asari where myself and some other forum denizens discussed the nature of asari reproduction. Sounds raunchy saying it like that but it really wasn't. There was also a topic where I was convinced that The Illusive Man was indoctrinated since the start and not just in ME3. There's a ton of interesting and enjoyable topics for fans to converse about - its a shame so many of them seem to only want to talk about how much they hate everything. Fortunately there's some gems to be found though.
 

 

My wife bought me the Mass Effect Library Edition for Christmas, my first foray into the world of Mass Effect (indeed any) comics. I've just finished reading the Evolution series which is way better than I had been led to believe and I thought it was a really good story. I liked the mentions of Clarke's Laws throughout, another link to 2001 A Space Odyssey and the ME series.

 

The reason I bring it up now is because of the Arca Monolith and how, because of it's way of indoctrination which seems to use nanites, is also able to allow for the extraction of information about a given subject straight from the user's mind. One of the indoctrinated characters says that "they know about us now, about humanity, because of me." The character is still able to retain some will of his own, until the Reapers decide otherwise that is.

 

So I do share your interpretation of most of what we've discussed, but the Destroy ending (which I have always head-cannoned as a sort of Reaper Code targeting signal) along with Starkid's warning that Shepard would also die along with all Synthetic life, further reinforces the idea that the appearance of the child straight form Shep's mind means he is also implanted with nanites. If I have to change my interpretation towards that ending, I wouldn't know how to begin.

 

It's been quite some time since I've read up on the comics. I think theres actually two or three of the homeworld comics I never caught. I'll make note to reread them sometime to refresh my memory on these things. Also wasn't even aware they had a 'library edition' - feel a bit silly now going for singular editions. Ahem, anyway.

 

There are different variances of reaper indoctrination. From what we've seen, implanted nanites are the most extreme. Shepard being indoctrinated is possible but I don't see it being so if its with nanites - at least not from a IT viewpoint which relies on the lesser 'signal' style indoctrination. A nanite-based indoctrination would allow the reapers complete and total control which would contradict the premise of IT which is that Shepard is fighting against it. There would be no hope against the nanites. I'm skeptical you could truly win against either but this is THE Commander Shepard we're talking about so I'm willing to stretch the lore to accommodate that possibility. Lol.

 

From my understanding of indoctrination the only variant that gives the reaper's access to memories, that turns the host into a receiver and transmitter as it were, is with reaper nanites. The 'lesser', and I use the term comparatively, variation of indoctrination, which is through proximity and relies on signals, turns the host into a receiver only but can't actually extract from their mind. For the catalyst to be able to pull something from Shepard's mind, to my knowledge, would require nanites. Which in turn are the most aggressive and absolute form of indoctrination.

 

Though I could be wrong on that. My lack of understanding the different subtleties of reaper indoctrination is part of what made it so difficult for me to realize TIM was indoctrinated since the start. Lol. Perhaps Vazgen can chime in and prove me wrong. Hint, hint.

[Rusted Cage]

Definitely. One of my favorite topics here in recent memory was one talking about the asari where myself and some other forum denizens discussed the nature of asari reproduction. Sounds raunchy saying it like that but it really wasn't. There was also a topic where I was convinced that The Illusive Man was indoctrinated since the start and not just in ME3. There's a ton of interesting and enjoyable topics for fans to converse about - its a shame so many of them seem to only want to talk about how much they hate everything. Fortunately there's some gems to be found though.
 

Damn shame I missed that, I like asari discussions. i recently posted some discussion points in the Save the Asari thread and wouldn't mind taking the conversation further. As for TIM, I have more compassion towards him now after reading Evolutions. Shame I missed that discussion too.

 

 

There are different variances of reaper indoctrination. From what we've seen, implanted nanites are the most extreme. Shepard being indoctrinated is possible but I don't see it being so if its with nanites - at least not from a IT viewpoint which relies on the lesser 'signal' style indoctrination. A nanite-based indoctrination would allow the reapers complete and total control which would contradict the premise of IT which is that Shepard is fighting against it. There would be no hope against the nanites. I'm skeptical you could truly win against either but this is THE Commander Shepard we're talking about so I'm willing to stretch the lore to accommodate that possibility. Lol.

 

From my understanding of indoctrination the only variant that gives the reaper's access to memories, that turns the host into a receiver and transmitter as it were, is with reaper nanites. The 'lesser', and I use the term comparatively, variation of indoctrination, which is through proximity and relies on signals, turns the host into a receiver only but can't actually extract from their mind. For the catalyst to be able to pull something from Shepard's mind, to my knowledge, would require nanites. Which in turn are the most aggressive and absolute form of indoctrination.

 

Though I could be wrong on that. My lack of understanding the different subtleties of reaper indoctrination is part of what made it so difficult for me to realize TIM was indoctrinated since the start. Lol. Perhaps Vazgen can chime in and prove me wrong. Hint, hint.

 

 

Yeah, c'mon Vazgen git yer! I always respect Vaz's opinion, he does know his stuff and is a gentleman to boot.

 

Shepard does seem to be special, able to withstand Morinth's dominating tricks during Samara's loyalty mission just by sheer force of will.

 

I think my current hang up lies in my interpretation of the Destroy Ending and how it is able to discriminate in order to target artificial intelligence among the galaxy's technology. I've always viewed it as a Reaper Code targeting signal, as I mentioned.

 

Seeing as how the Catalyst also says Shep could die, I now have to become comfortable with the idea that Shep had a small amount of Reaper tech within hir - or at least re-purposed Reaper tech courtesy of Cerberus' Lazurus project. Trouble with that is that it would make Shepard more susceptible to indoctrination, something the endings have proven didn't happen.

 

I guess this is why I'm thinking about the Catalyst appearing in that form in particular because it would make the above explanation make sense but also raises other questions about how the Catalyst could read hir mind but not effect it.

 

Your reused asset is starting to look more appealing now but I still can't shake this off.

[Valmar]

Damn shame I missed that, I like asari discussions. i recently posted some discussion points in the Save the Asari thread and wouldn't mind taking the conversation further. As for TIM, I have more compassion towards him now after reading Evolutions. Shame I missed that discussion too.

 

 

Yeah, c'mon Vazgen git yer! I always respect Vaz's opinion, he does know his stuff and is a gentleman to boot.

 

We could start up a new topic again I guess. See how long it takes to be lost in the sea of "ending sucked". I have some ideas about Asari sexuality that I'd love to hear others opinion on, though I suspect diehard fans of Liara would not appreciate my particular view...

 

Vazgen and myself have spent some time discussing various aspects of Mass Effect through the forums Private Messaging system which allows 'group conversation' type deals. Perhaps, if he's interested, we could start something like that to flesh out ideas and see if they're worth exposing to the larger public of the forum. I'd be up for that.

 

 

Shepard does seem to be special, able to withstand Morinth's dominating tricks during Samara's loyalty mission just by sheer force of will.

 

 

Which, according to Samara's warnings, seemed impossible. Special Shepard. I heard one of the scrapped plot elements of one of the DLCs for ME3 actually involved researching Shepard's immunity to reaper indoctrination. I just wish I could remember where I saw it. It isn't lore since it was scrapped but it is interesting context.

 

 

I think my current hang up lies in my interpretation of the Destroy Ending and how it is able to discriminate in order to target artificial intelligence among the galaxy's technology. I've always viewed it as a Reaper Code targeting signal, as I mentioned.

 

Seeing as how the Catalyst also says Shep could die, I now have to become comfortable with the idea that Shep had a small amount of Reaper tech within hir - or at least re-purposed Reaper tech courtesy of Cerberus' Lazurus project. Trouble with that is that it would make Shepard more susceptible to indoctrination, something the endings have proven didn't happen.

 

I guess this is why I'm thinking about the Catalyst appearing in that form in particular because it would make the above explanation make sense but also raises other questions about how the Catalyst could read hir mind but not effect it.

 

Your reused asset is starting to look more appealing now but I still can't shake this off.

 

Well, personally I do think Shepard was brought back with tech that was at least BASED off of reaper technology. The Illusive Man was studying husks pretty early on and there are parallels between what the husk technology can achieve and what is done to Shepard. Its easy to assume the Illusive Man's tech in bringing back Shepard was at least inspired from something they learned from the husks.

 

I would have actually preferred a 'reaper code targeting' signal and have argued before on this forum that it was both feasible in the lore and would had allowed opportunities for the geth and EDI to survive. The issue is that starbrat specifically says that the catalyst DOESN'T descriminate. All synthetic life and technology is targeted, not just the reapers, for whatever strange reason. So, since it is all targeted, it is not necessary for Shepard to have reaper tech in him in order for the blast to kill him.

 

In fact, from what we've seen, it isn't just synthetic LIFE being hit by this - all technology takes a hit. Look at what happens to the Normandy, it almost explodes from the blast. The Low EMS version of destroy has such destructive force it nearly demolishes buildings and turns organics to ash. The relays break apart and the Citadel is in ruin.

 

Catalyst: "The effects of the blast will not be constrained to the reapers. Technology you rely on will be affected, but those who survive should have little difficulty repairing the damage."

 

Personally, in its current form(all synthetics targeted) I would had liked if it was the ME2 upgrades you get for Shepard that determine survival. Thick skin, muscle and bone weave perhaps helped shield the more sensitive cybernetics that keep his organs functioning. That would had been a neat nod to those upgrades. As it stands their improvement's on Shepard are purely from a gameplay perspective so to see that get some significance in the actual story would had been pretty cool, imo.

 

 

 

[Vazgen]

Thanks guys, I'd be happy to discuss Mass Effect with you, be it PMs or public threads  

 

Oh, and about Reaper code targeting, I don't think Shepard has Reaper tech in him. Not even one nanite. The technology from Lazarus project may be inspired by Reaper technology but it has nothing that comes directly from the Reapers. All is built from scratch. When the Catalyst said "The effects of the blast will not be constrained to the reapers. Technology you rely on will be affected, but those who survive should have little difficulty repairing the damage." I immediately thought of the Reaper technology, since it's their trap to make us be reliant on their technology. The addition that survivors should have little difficulty repairing the damage and Shepard's survival support that notion IMO. 

With low EMS the Catalyst mentions that the Crucible is damaged. So we can't really assess Crucible's workings by those endings. For the Destroy wave I think two things happen. First, central Reaper database is destroyed with all the knowledge of the harvested races and programming functions that Reapers use. Second, an energy pulse is sent out that targets Reaper nanites. That's why husks are disintegrated by the wave but the Reapers themselves remain intact and simply collapse. 

[Kurt M.]

 

No matter what that guy did, it cannot be worse than what Greg Keyes did to the Elder Scrolls lore...

[Valmar]

With low EMS the Catalyst mentions that the Crucible is damaged. So we can't really assess Crucible's workings by those endings. For the Destroy wave I think two things happen. First, central Reaper database is destroyed with all the knowledge of the harvested races and programming functions that Reapers use. Second, an energy pulse is sent out that targets Reaper nanites. That's why husks are disintegrated by the wave but the Reapers themselves remain intact and simply collapse. 

 

True enough, I didn't take into consideration the crucible being damaged.

[Rusted Cage]

We could start up a new topic again I guess. See how long it takes to be lost in the sea of "ending sucked". I have some ideas about Asari sexuality that I'd love to hear others opinion on, though I suspect diehard fans of Liara would not appreciate my particular view...

 

Vazgen and myself have spent some time discussing various aspects of Mass Effect through the forums Private Messaging system which allows 'group conversation' type deals. Perhaps, if he's interested, we could start something like that to flesh out ideas and see if they're worth exposing to the larger public of the forum. I'd be up for that.

You've piqued my curiosity with "fans of Liara would not appreciate my particular view..." So count me in for any such discussions.

 

Which, according to Samara's warnings, seemed impossible. Special Shepard. I heard one of the scrapped plot elements of one of the DLCs for ME3 actually involved researching Shepard's immunity to reaper indoctrination. I just wish I could remember where I saw it. It isn't lore since it was scrapped but it is interesting context.

I'm probably reading too much into some of the "chosen one" themes which are subtly present, but I remember after my first playthrough before Leviathan came out I left the game with a feeling that Shepard is a special individual "chosen" somehow by the galaxy. Now I'm thinking about it, I reckon this idea was sparked in my brain by Vendetta's talk about "patterns" and Javik's Cosmic Imperative and racial exemplar talks, not to mention the final Stargazer scene about "the Shepard". Of course, a first playthrough is more about emotion than a cerebral examination and later content such as the EC and Leviathan long since cleared those Vendetta concepts up. Nevertheless, they linger in my mind in some nebulous form.

 

 

 

The issue is that starbrat specifically says that the catalyst DOESN'T descriminate. All synthetic life and technology is targeted, not just the reapers, for whatever strange reason. So, since it is all targeted, it is not necessary for Shepard to have reaper tech in him in order for the blast to kill him.

 

In fact, from what we've seen, it isn't just synthetic LIFE being hit by this - all technology takes a hit. Look at what happens to the Normandy, it almost explodes from the blast. The Low EMS version of destroy has such destructive force it nearly demolishes buildings and turns organics to ash. The relays break apart and the Citadel is in ruin.

 

Catalyst: "The effects of the blast will not be constrained to the reapers. Technology you rely on will be affected, but those who survive should have little difficulty repairing the damage."

 

Personally, in its current form(all synthetics targeted) I would had liked if it was the ME2 upgrades you get for Shepard that determine survival. Thick skin, muscle and bone weave perhaps helped shield the more sensitive cybernetics that keep his organs functioning. That would had been a neat nod to those upgrades. As it stands their improvement's on Shepard are purely from a gameplay perspective so to see that get some significance in the actual story would had been pretty cool, imo.

 

 

 

 

Thanks guys, I'd be happy to discuss Mass Effect with you, be it PMs or public threads

 

Oh, and about Reaper code targeting, I don't think Shepard has Reaper tech in him. Not even one nanite. The technology from Lazarus project may be inspired by Reaper technology but it has nothing that comes directly from the Reapers. All is built from scratch. When the Catalyst said "The effects of the blast will not be constrained to the reapers. Technology you rely on will be affected, but those who survive should have little difficulty repairing the damage." I immediately thought of the Reaper technology, since it's their trap to make us be reliant on their technology. The addition that survivors should have little difficulty repairing the damage and Shepard's survival support that notion IMO. 

With low EMS the Catalyst mentions that the Crucible is damaged. So we can't really assess Crucible's workings by those endings. For the Destroy wave I think two things happen. First, central Reaper database is destroyed with all the knowledge of the harvested races and programming functions that Reapers use. Second, an energy pulse is sent out that targets Reaper nanites. That's why husks are disintegrated by the wave but the Reapers themselves remain intact and simply collapse. 

 

You and Vazgen aren't helping me any as much as I'm enjoying it So now I can't fall back on the Shepard is indoctrinated because the IT is false, I can't fall back on Shepard being implanted by Reaper Tech which is why he got hit by the Destroy beam, so what am I left with? A Catalyst who appears in a form only present in Shepard's mind with no explanation as to how it is able to do this; and a Destroy beam which targets "technology you rely on" as well as Synthetic life including Shepard.

 

Know what, I'm picking either Control or Refuse next time because they're the only two that make sense.

[Vazgen]

 

You and Vazgen aren't helping me any as much as I'm enjoying it So now I can't fall back on the Shepard is indoctrinated because the IT is false, I can't fall back on Shepard being implanted by Reaper Tech which is why he got hit by the Destroy beam, so what am I left with? A Catalyst who appears in a form only present in Shepard's mind with no explanation as to how it is able to do this; and a Destroy beam which targets "technology you rely on" as well as Synthetic life including Shepard.

 

Know what, I'm picking either Control or Refuse next time because they're the only two that make sense.

I prefer not having Shepard implanted with Reaper tech because I can then explain how Destroy beam actually works instead of calling it space magic that targets all the technology out there. The only loose end is Shepard not reacting to the Catalyst's appearance which I headcanon as Shepard just being smart  

Control doesn't make sense either, might as well stick with Refuse. "I won't let fear compromise who I am"