223 réponses à ce sujet

[Ithurael]

I've said in another thread, but I think the whole kid, exploding tubes and electro-shock control devices were all just images inside Shepards head. Think about it. How would the Leviathans even be able to use the device? They're huge in comparison to Shepard, yet the electro-shock device has hand holds for human sized creatures. The Leviathans and Reapers have mental control, so my personal interpretation is that Shepard is still on earth, standing in the beam, controlling the Crucible mentally. Everything that happens from when he 'supposedly' flies up the tube is all in his head.

 

First the meeting with Anderson and The Illusive Man are Harbingers further attempts to indoctrinate him, then when that passes his mind enters the control console and Harbinger again tries to influence his decisions, wanting him to pick Control or Synthesis, and guiding him away from Destruction. If you pick Destruction and have enough of a rating, Shepard takes that breath.. and where is he? Still at the base of the beam. Take a long look at the approach to the beam, examine the surroundings, then look at the rubble that Shepard is lying in, especially some of the things in the background, and you'll see what I mean.

 

As long as that remains your personal interpretation of events and not what you know actually happened. Gambol already confirmed shep is on the Citadel in the post breath scene.

 

Also...Indoctrination does NOT work like the way you are descibing. If it does...then it puts the entire series in jepardy as it all could have been an illusion since Eden Prime or the battle of the Citadel in ME1.

 

Indoctrination was never about tricking people into accepting reaper motivations...it was always about forcing them to do it. Even the codex says this.

 

You can believe in IT if you want...but it is just headcanon and speculations. It is not, however, the intended way bio wanted to end ME3 sadly. There was an 'indoctrination' battle in ME3 - the TIM scene. We get the oily shadows, the music (behind the scenes) was called indoctrinated, and shep can die(lose) or win(survive) via killing TIM or making him pull a Saren.

[dorktainian]

isn't that what the ending does?  it forces you to choose - therefore you are indoctrinated?

[Ithurael]

isn't that what the ending does?  it forces you to choose - therefore you are indoctrinated?

 

The ending does make you choose. It has three (now 4) choices. If it was indoctrination, it would just be shep being forced to shoot himself. There would not be an elaborate setup.

 

Indoctrination would have no choice - at all. Like the TIM scene. Shep falls under TIMs control regardless and eventually breaks free for...reasons we cannot comprehend. I severly doubt it was because he shot an imaginary tube in his imagination.

 

In the end though, indoctrination has never been shown to create an elaborate dream in someones subconcious and then 'trick' them to choose two options or one option to indoctrinate them. Most die hard ITers I have seen related Leviathan enthrallment to indoctrination, but the codex and the game show they are two very differnet processes with a few similarites. Entrallment can create a dreamscape, indoctrination cannot.

 

Also, from a gameplay and design point of view I have not found an in game entry or any evidence from the lore to support why the reapers give destroy as the ONLY option in low EMS...Why would the reapers give shep the way out after all that? And why would it kill him? The only answer I have seen is headcanon and speculations (nothing solid from the game).

 

Sadly, the ending was rushed and not peer reviewed. While IT makes more sense than the original ending, I think we can all relize by now that it was not bios intended ending. While I know you like IT and support it fully, I think we can both accept that bio blew it with the original ending and IT is a fan interpretaion of the ending that helps to explain some of the...oddities surrounding the end sequences.

[Vazgen]

I've said in another thread, but I think the whole kid, exploding tubes and electro-shock control devices were all just images inside Shepards head. Think about it. How would the Leviathans even be able to use the device? They're huge in comparison to Shepard, yet the electro-shock device has hand holds for human sized creatures. The Leviathans and Reapers have mental control, so my personal interpretation is that Shepard is still on earth, standing in the beam, controlling the Crucible mentally. Everything that happens from when he 'supposedly' flies up the tube is all in his head.

 

First the meeting with Anderson and The Illusive Man are Harbingers further attempts to indoctrinate him, then when that passes his mind enters the control console and Harbinger again tries to influence his decisions, wanting him to pick Control or Synthesis, and guiding him away from Destruction. If you pick Destruction and have enough of a rating, Shepard takes that breath.. and where is he? Still at the base of the beam. Take a long look at the approach to the beam, examine the surroundings, then look at the rubble that Shepard is lying in, especially some of the things in the background, and you'll see what I mean.

What about Low EMS Destroy? When Shepard dies no matter what and Earth is a charred rock?

[dorktainian]

The ending does make you choose. It has three (now 4) choices. If it was indoctrination, it would just be shep being forced to shoot himself. There would not be an elaborate setup.

 

Indoctrination would have no choice - at all. Like the TIM scene. Shep falls under TIMs control regardless and eventually breaks free for...reasons we cannot comprehend. I severly doubt it was because he shot an imaginary tube in his imagination.

 

In the end though, indoctrination has never been shown to create an elaborate dream in someones subconcious and then 'trick' them to choose two options or one option to indoctrinate them. Most die hard ITers I have seen related Leviathan enthrallment to indoctrination, but the codex and the game show they are two very differnet processes with a few similarites. Entrallment can create a dreamscape, indoctrination cannot.

 

Also, from a gameplay and design point of view I have not found an in game entry or any evidence from the lore to support why the reapers give destroy as the ONLY option in low EMS...Why would the reapers give shep the way out after all that? And why would it kill him? The only answer I have seen is headcanon and speculations (nothing solid from the game).

 

Sadly, the ending was rushed and not peer reviewed. While IT makes more sense than the original ending, I think we can all relize by now that it was not bios intended ending. While I know you like IT and support it fully, I think we can both accept that bio blew it with the original ending and IT is a fan interpretaion of the ending that helps to explain some of the...oddities surrounding the end sequences.

I kind of disagree.  If you remember the Indoctrination Codex tells you that one person can in effect bring down nations.  They don't have to kill themselves to do it, just make a choice which will result in the reapers getting what they want.  How big a choice needs to be made? it could be trivial, or something really big.  How about using the crucible?  That's as big a red flag as any in the mass effect story.  Use something to end a war based on absolutely no guarantee it will work, or if it does work what the heck will happen to the energy it releases?

 

It's like someone telling you to push a doomsday machine self destruct button after they label it 'free candy - press this button'.  Would you push without asking questions of why you even need to push it?  Shep chooses to use the crucible without any idea what it does.  I call that indoctrinated.

[Ithurael]

I kind of disagree.  If you remember the Indoctrination Codex tells you that one person can in effect bring down nations.  They don't have to kill themselves to do it, just make a choice which will result in the reapers getting what they want.  How big a choice needs to be made? it could be trivial, or something really big.  How about using the crucible?  That's as big a red flag as any in the mass effect story.  Use something to end a war based on absolutely no guarantee it will work, or if it does work what the heck will happen to the energy it releases?

 

It's like someone telling you to push a doomsday machine self destruct button after they label it 'free candy - press this button'.  Would you push without asking questions of why you even need to push it?  Shep chooses to use the crucible without any idea what it does.  I call that indoctrinated.

 

I call that a rushed plot lol. And again (via the underlined) I think you are making speculations on how indoctrination works. There is no choice...there never will be a choice with indoctrination. It is straight up force. Indoctrination does not give the victim choice, it just indoctrinates them.

 

Also...there is a lot of speculations in that post...nothing sold from in game. Minus the mention of the Codex of course. Also, here is a kicker...why indoctrinate shep during the battle for earth? We know via meta knowledge and throughout the series that the reapers CANT BE DEFEATED CONVENTIONALLY LOLZ because Reasonz. So...what is the purpose of bringing down shepard? No matter what, they will win regardless. There is absolutly no reason why Harbinger would want to indoctrinate shep during the final battle. I am sure we could headcanon one, but there it is not explained at all in the narrative, the dialog, the gameplay, or the lore as to what the purpose is for indoctrinating shep if the reapers are going to win regardless.

 

Also, I do agree that the crucible appeared waaay to conviently, but that is because ME2 had no real significance via the plot.

 

Take a look at SC2's plot time line. The first chapter focuses on putting together an alien superweaper that inevitably resolves the central conflict of the first game, in the second chapter the super weapon is then revealed to have revived or brought back the main antagonist of the trilogy, in the third chapter (granted it is not revealed) but I theorize - assuming the writers paid attention to the lore they wrote - that the weapon will play some part in the final battle. The mysterious super weapon is introduced early, explained via dialog, and has a function to both the gameplay and the story.

 

The alien superweapon did not just appear out of nowhere and resolve the conflict at the end. In ME3 the crucible just appears because Walters needed a way to funnel all choices and consequences into something that resolved the plot. Had they planned the trilogy from day one, the crucible could have been introduced in ME2 or even ME1 for that matter and it would have made a bajillion more sense. This is what happens when you have a rushed time frame and an inexperienced story writer. Walters was great and is great at characters...but I have yet to see him really pull off great full stories.

 

Sometimes I think people look for things that aren't there just to support something that makes them feel better. An example: "The crucible came out of nowhere...it must be a trick!" Another: "The Catalyst contradicts established lore from ME1 and 2...it must be lying!"

 

While I love your imagination Dork...we both know that IT is not intended by bio for the end. There was an intended Indoctrination segment that was dropped as a gameplay element (but later used as a cutscene element during the TIM confrontation). I know you will keep believing in IT regardless...but in the end it is just too late.

[WizzyWarlock]

What about Low EMS Destroy? When Shepard dies no matter what and Earth is a charred rock?

As you know, Indoctrination takes time. If you have a low EMS, you haven't spent much time doing much of anything in the game, thus the indoctrination effect hasn't had the time to completely take over. When you reach the three choices, Destroy is the only one available because Control and Synthesis is what the Reapers want, not what Shepard wants. They can't make that suggestion with a still strong mind.

 

If you want to equate it to another story, take the Lord of the Rings. The longer Bilbo has the one ring, the more he wants to keep it, the more he adores it. Eventually he would have ended up like Golem, a wretched creature. This is the same thing with Indoctrination, slowly the Reapers start to take over until you eventually end up as a husk.

 

As for Earth becoming a charred rock, there can be a few reasons, but it's all open to interpretation. Perhaps he hadn't gained the experience to properly control the blast, perhaps the Reapers pushed their own will into the blast, wiping out the planet in retribution, perhaps he wasn't indoctrinated enough and put too much willpower into firing the blast, thus creating something more powerful than intended. In the end, it's just a story and stories have things you can look back on and go, "Huh? Why...?". The perfect example is, again, Lord of the Rings. Why didn't they just call in the Eagles and fly Frodo to Mordor?

[GalacticWolf5]

When you reach the three choices, Destroy is the only one available because Control and Synthesis is what the Reapers want, not what Shepard wants.

What about the people who have a low EMS and can only have Control?

[GalacticWolf5]

I've said in another thread, but I think the whole kid, exploding tubes and electro-shock control devices were all just images inside Shepards head. Think about it. How would the Leviathans even be able to use the device? They're huge in comparison to Shepard, yet the electro-shock device has hand holds for human sized creatures. The Leviathans and Reapers have mental control, so my personal interpretation is that Shepard is still on earth, standing in the beam, controlling the Crucible mentally. Everything that happens from when he 'supposedly' flies up the tube is all in his head.

Well here's the thing: The Crucible and the Citadel were not built by the Leviathans.

[Vazgen]

 

As you know, Indoctrination takes time. If you have a low EMS, you haven't spent much time doing much of anything in the game, thus the indoctrination effect hasn't had the time to completely take over. When you reach the three choices, Destroy is the only one available because Control and Synthesis is what the Reapers want, not what Shepard wants. They can't make that suggestion with a still strong mind.

 

If you want to equate it to another story, take the Lord of the Rings. The longer Bilbo has the one ring, the more he wants to keep it, the more he adores it. Eventually he would have ended up like Golem, a wretched creature. This is the same thing with Indoctrination, slowly the Reapers start to take over until you eventually end up as a husk.

 

As for Earth becoming a charred rock, there can be a few reasons, but it's all open to interpretation. Perhaps he hadn't gained the experience to properly control the blast, perhaps the Reapers pushed their own will into the blast, wiping out the planet in retribution, perhaps he wasn't indoctrinated enough and put too much willpower into firing the blast, thus creating something more powerful than intended. In the end, it's just a story and stories have things you can look back on and go, "Huh? Why...?". The perfect example is, again, Lord of the Rings. Why didn't they just call in the Eagles and fly Frodo to Mordor?

Hmm, OK, what about Low EMS Control? If you have low EMS and saved the Collector Base you will be only given Control as an option. 

 

Edit: Galactic Wolf already mentioned it

 

If that's how you view the trilogy, why did you even bother with IT? The way I see it it's a perfect example of going "Huh? Why?"

[Ithurael]

<snip>

The perfect example is, again, Lord of the Rings. Why didn't they just call in the Eagles and fly Frodo to Mordor?

 

I thought they gave at least a reasonable way out for this. Sauron had 9 flying Nazgul (not sure how many eagles there are).

 

While it would have made for a shorter story, Tolkein gave us a way to headcanon (at least) a reason as to why the eagles were never used to fly Frodo to Doom. As long as the writer gives you an option in the narrative, the lore, the appendicies, or the characters it is fine to speculate or even headcanon. If the writer never gives this in the story, it was not their intent.

 

Also...Sauron would literally have seen that coming lol. His eye (in the movies at least) was shown to always be moving. Also, using the eagles would be akin to a devastating 'Hail Mary'...yeah your chance of success is up there...but the chance of failure for such a bold and brazen assault is even greater than that of failure.

[WizzyWarlock]

Also...Indoctrination does NOT work like the way you are descibing. If it does...then it puts the entire series in jepardy as it all could have been an illusion since Eden Prime or the battle of the Citadel in ME1.

 

Indoctrination was never about tricking people into accepting reaper motivations...it was always about forcing them to do it. Even the codex says this.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Geth matrix, which was also introduced in ME3. In the scene where Shepard first enters the matrix, there's that familiar white beam around her, similar to the light coming from the Citadel. The comment then follows, "Your mind perceives our world as something familiar.", to which Shepard replies, "I wouldn't call this familiar.". This is another hint of indoctrination, as the matrix looks more like you'd expect of a computer or AI, such as a Reaper. Her mind is being invaded by the Reapers, thus the system considers what she perceives as something familiar, which of course it isn't to Shepard but would be to a Reaper.

 

So the beam, in my opinion, is like logging back in to that matrix, assuming control over the system. Shepard's mind perceives it as something familiar. As she was going to the Citadel, this would be the reason it appears as the Citadel. Anything else wouldn't make sense.

 

As for Indoctrination itself, the Codex states, "Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.... A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe.".

 

It doesn't force them to do anything, it leaves them highly susceptible to suggestion. It can 'suggest' they do things, but it can't outwardly force them to do it. That's why Saren was able to turn the gun on himself at the end of ME1. If he was forced to act the Reaper would never have allowed that to happen. 

[Valmar]

Gambol already confirmed shep is on the Citadel in the post breath scene.

Do you happen to have the source to this? I'd /love/ to have this for future conversations explaining misconceptions about the ending.

 

 

 

This is another hint of indoctrination, as the matrix looks more like you'd expect of a computer or AI, such as a Reaper.

 

This is a false assumption. The reaper's are not machines and they are not AI. EDI smacks Shepard in the face in ME2 about this. Legion even explains it. A reaper is a billion organic minds linked together to from one conjoined consciousnesses. You put all this work and effort into making IT fit into the story and delving so deep, why not turn all the effort into explaining what we REALLY have as opposed to explaining a headcanon? You might be more satisfied with the ending that way.

[WizzyWarlock]

 

Hmm, OK, what about Low EMS Control? If you have low EMS and saved the Collector Base you will be only given Control as an option. 

 

Edit: Galactic Wolf already mentioned it

 

If that's how you view the trilogy, why did you even bother with IT? The way I see it it's a perfect example of going "Huh? Why?"

I didn't actually know you only get a Control option, so that's interesting. Perhaps its just a case of the pendulum swinging the other way. Leaving the Collector Base up would give you more prolonged contact to Reaper artifacts, thus the indoctrination effect would be easier, to the point where Shepard is completely happy to follow their suggestions and the Reapers get exactly what they want.

 

As for how I view it. Well, I hated the ending originally, I thought it was awful and I haven't played the game since. But recently I've been looking around at peoples opinions now a decent amount of time has passed, seen so many videos about the indoctrination theory, so much evidence, lots of little bits and pieces here and there spread throughout the game, the way indoctrination effects people all through the series.. just, there's so much out there that I'm at the point now where I can't see how it was meant any other way.

 

The thing I mentioned in the other post was that for the indoctrination effect to work, the player also had to be unaware of it, and I think they've done that perfectly. There are the two camps. Those who could see past the indoctrination and view the ending for what it was, and those who didn't and let Harbinger, "Assume direct control!". 

[Ithurael]

Again...you are speculating on indoctrination. No where in the codex, the lore, the narrative, or the dialog is it ever shown or explained that indoctrination creates a huge dreamscape and 'tricks' the victim into choosing what the reapers want.

 

The codex says that indoctrination literally forces the brain to become more susceptible to reaper influences:

"As for Indoctrination itself, the Codex states, "Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions"

 

Subliminal =/= subversive

 

the definition of Subliminal is:

"(of a stimulus or mental process) below the threshold of sensation or consciousness; perceived by or affecting someone's mind without their being aware of it."

 

https://www.google.c...ox-a&channel=sb

 

The definition of subversive is:

"seeking or intended to subvert an established system or institution."

 

https://www.google.c...ox-a&channel=sb

 

You are essentially trying to say that the reapers created this giant fassad in sheps mind during the ending of the game for the sole purpose of 'tricking' him to indoctrinate him. Wheras, as the codex states obvioulsy that indoctrination is Subliminal (eg no tricking). And the codex even tells you how a reaper indoctrinates someone:

"physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods"

 

No where in that definition does it say tricking, lying, convincing, false choices, etc.

 

You can headcanon that the ending is IT...but the codex literally shows that indoctrination does not work like what IT tries to say it works like.

[Ithurael]

Do you happen to have the source to this? I'd /love/ to have this for future conversations explaining misconceptions about the ending.

 

 

yah...here it is

https://twitter.com/...187404377001987

[GalacticWolf5]

I didn't actually know you only get a Control option, so that's interesting. Perhaps its just a case of the pendulum swinging the other way. Leaving the Collector Base up would give you more prolonged contact to Reaper artifacts, thus the indoctrination effect would be easier, to the point where Shepard is completely happy to follow their suggestions and the Reapers get exactly what they want.

If Shep doesn't destroy the Collector Base he doesnt stay in it or close to it. It wouldnt affect him.

[WizzyWarlock]

This is a false assumption. The reaper's are not machines and they are not AI. EDI smacks Shepard in the face in ME2 about this. Legion even explains it. A reaper is a billion organic minds linked together to from one conjoined consciousnesses. You put all this work and effort into making IT fit into the story and delving so deep, why not turn all the effort into explaining what we REALLY have as opposed to explaining a headcanon? You might be more satisfied with the ending that way.

That's not entirely true. Shepard asks the Catalyst, "Are you an AI?", and it replies, "In as much as you are an animal.". Humans are animals, but so far forward that we no longer consider ourselves animals. So what the Catalyst is saying is that it's just a highly evolved AI, where it no longer considers itself an AI. 

[WizzyWarlock]

Again...you are speculating on indoctrination. No where in the codex, the lore, the narrative, or the dialog is it ever shown or explained that indoctrination creates a huge dreamscape and 'tricks' the victim into choosing what the reapers want.

You missed that whole part about the matrix.

[GalacticWolf5]

And Shepard is not indoctrinated because Vendetta (The VI we found on Thessia) would've said it both times we saw him.

[Ithurael]

You missed that whole part about the matrix.

 

I saw the post..My retort was that what you are saying is happening is NOT how the codex, the lore, the narrative, or the dialog describes indoctrination.

 

And you missed the tweet that is stated by the producer of the series that Shep is on the citadel in the post breath scene. Hell, even Ninja Stan (aka Stanley Woo) - who worked at bioware in QA when ME3 was being developed declared that IT was a "Fan-Theory"

http://forum.bioware...l-denial-of-it/

 

You can believe in IT if you want...but you just have to realize that it is NOT the interpretation of bioware. Just so long as you are aware of that everything should be fine.

[WizzyWarlock]

And Shepard is not indoctrinated because Vendetta (The VI we found on Thessia) would've said it both times we saw him.

Shepard wasn't indoctrinated at the time, and at the end of the game you can still avoid it. It's only when you select either Control or Synthesis that you become indoctrinated, as evidenced by the change in the eyes. Everything else is a slow, ongoing attempt to 'reprogram' his mind. 

[themikefest]

I didn't actually know you only get a Control option, so that's interesting. 

Your ems has to be below 1750 to either get the control only ending or the destroy only ending. All depends on what was done with the collector base in ME2

[GalacticWolf5]

Shepard wasn't indoctrinated at the time, and at the end of the game you can still avoid it. It's only when you select either Control or Synthesis that you become indoctrinated, as evidenced by the change in the eyes. Everything else is a slow, ongoing attempt to 'reprogram' his mind.

So you're telling me that because I chose Control; Shepard was fully indoctrinated and failed to stop the cycle. You're also telling me that everything I see in the extended cut (the epilogue) is a lie created by the Reapers to stop Shepard...

Is that what you're saying?

[WizzyWarlock]

Your ems has to be below 1750 to either get the control only ending or the destroy only ending. All depends on what was done with the collector base in ME2

Actually, now I think about it, the two endings do suggest the road that Shepard is following. If he distrusts The Illusive Man, wants the Collector Base dead and gone, then the Destroy ending is the only option. He wants the Reapers removed. If, on the other hand, he understands The Illusive Man and believes what he's saying, that they should study them and leave the base intact for research, then Control would be the only option as he considers their existence to have more potential if they could be retrained or reprogrammed.

 

It's the most basic level, but that one choice at the end of ME2 does make sense with the endings of ME3 on low EMS. It's just pushing his mind to where it was going anyway.