223 réponses à ce sujet

[Ithurael]

Actually, now I think about it, the two endings do suggest the road that Shepard is following. If he distrusts The Illusive Man, wants the Collector Base dead and gone, then the Destroy ending is the only option. He wants the Reapers removed. If, on the other hand, he understands The Illusive Man and believes what he's saying, that they should study them and leave the base intact for research, then Control would be the only option as he considers their existence to have more potential if they could be retrained or reprogrammed.

 

It's the most basic level, but that one choice at the end of ME2 does make sense with the endings of ME3 on low EMS. It's just pushing his mind to where it was going anyway. 

 

 

So where is the explanation for why the reapers, aka harbinger, only offer shep destroy in low ems and - if destroy breaks indoctrination - why is there no breath scene at the end of low ems destroy?

 

There is no in-universe lore adhering explanation for this...it is all headcanon and speculation.

[GalacticWolf5]

Also, you can't get indoctrinated that fast. It's a slow process. I'm pretty sure that Vendetta would've noticed if Shepard was getting indoctrinated, especially during Priority: Cerberus Headquarters

[Ithurael]

Also, you can't get indoctrinated that fast. It's a slow process. I'm pretty sure that Vendetta would've noticed if Shepard was getting indoctrinated, especially during Priority: Cerberus Headquarters

 

Well..technically there is a such thing in the game as 'rapid' indoctrination...but the effects of that (even if broken or somehow broken) are...bad at best.

 

http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers

 

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks."

 

Thus...assuming that shep does shoot the tube and break the indoc attempt...he would then wake up a gibbering animal only to be crushed by Harbinger.

 

And then the Reapers still win lol.

[Valmar]

yah...here it is

https://twitter.com/...187404377001987

 

Awesome, thanks man.

 

 

That's not entirely true. Shepard asks the Catalyst, "Are you an AI?", and it replies, "In as much as you are an animal.". Humans are animals, but so far forward that we no longer consider ourselves animals. So what the Catalyst is saying is that it's just a highly evolved AI, where it no longer considers itself an AI. 

 

The catalyst is not a reaper. The reaper's are built by the catalyst. The catalyst IS an AI. The reapers are not. That's what I'm saying. The reapers are a billion organic minds linked together. That's the lore, you don't have to take my word for it, Legion tells us and EDI tells us. In the second game, even, so this isn't something that only pops up at the ending.

 

I saw the post..My retort was that what you are saying is happening is NOT how the codex, the lore, the narrative, or the dialog describes indoctrination.

 

And you missed the tweet that is stated by the producer of the series that Shep is on the citadel in the post breath scene. Hell, even Ninja Stan (aka Stanley Woo) - who worked at bioware in QA when ME3 was being developed declared that IT was a "Fan-Theory"

http://forum.bioware...l-denial-of-it/

 

You can believe in IT if you want...but you just have to realize that it is NOT the interpretation of bioware. Just so long as you are aware of that everything should be fine.

 

Wow, thanks. That's two links with words straight from the devs to help tackle the IT delusion. Props man, props. I'm bookmarking these.

[Ithurael]

IT itself is not a delusion...it is actually a fun way to view the ending - I at least respect it for what it tried to do.

 

However, these days, believing that it was bioware's intention all along...that could be construed as a delusion sadly.

[Valmar]

However, these days, believing that it was bioware's intention all along...that could be construed as a delusion sadly.

 

That's the context for which I meant when I say its a delusion. I don't care what people headcanon - I've played a few IT headcanon runs myself. It's only when people forget that its fanfiction that I take issue with it. People get so attached to it that they begin to forget that its all fanfiction headcanon and NOT the 'real' story and not the intention of Bioware.

[themikefest]

If Shepard is indoctrinated, couldn't the same be said about Garrus? Depending on the playthrough, he can be with Shepard the whole time except the Arrival dlc.

[WizzyWarlock]

So you're telling me that because I chose Control; Shepard was fully indoctrinated and failed to stop the cycle. You're also telling me that everything I see in the extended cut (the epilogue) is a lie created by the Reapers to stop Shepard...

Is that what you're saying?

No, it all happened. It just wasn't Shepard's choice - through all 3 games he's wanting to destroy the Reapers, put an end to them and their cycle, and then when it finally comes to it, he changes his mind and decides to control them? This was the indoctrination, it was suggesting that control was the better option, but he still had a chance to refuse it. If you pick Control then the Reapers basically win, you've done exactly what they wanted you to do - remember, Cerberus was completely indoctrinated and wanted Control, as did the Prothean rebels who wanted to allow Control through the Crucible too. 

 

Why do they win? Because the Crucible does nothing. These are beings with an infinite life span, Shepard might be in Control for now and he might help clean up the galaxy for a while, but after a thousand years of seeing nations rise and fall, of seeing death and destruction, the chaos that the Catalyst talked about, would he get tired of the cycle of death and want to do something about it? What about after five thousand years? Ten thousand? Fifty thousand? The Reapers have been around so long they know what's going to happen. in the words of Sovereign, "The cycle cannot be broken. The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom."

[WizzyWarlock]

So where is the explanation for why the reapers, aka harbinger, only offer shep destroy in low ems and - if destroy breaks indoctrination - why is there no breath scene at the end of low ems destroy?

Uhh.. Because he's still standing on Earth, which is engulfed in a fireball?

 

Okay, so this needs a bit of updating. Here's the thing. The ending sucked, I hated it, it became all '2001' at the end of Star Wars meets Starship Troopers. I was expecting a massive space battle, combined forces assaulting on the ground, the destruction of Harbinger after an epic struggle, team mates dying, Shepard making it through to the end and winning with his last breath. Something freakin' epic!

 

But now, after the years have gone by, I look at all these indoctrination theory videos and all the hints throughout the game, and I think this is what Bioware intended. They had an indoctrination ending in mind the whole time, they just couldn't finish it properly, perhaps in the correct time frame. And so while they might not have dotted all the I's and crossed all the T's, they did put the majority of the framework into place and made a suitably 'out of body experience' ending that fitted along with the whole idea. So sure, all questions can't be answered, but I think there's more than enough there to believe that the ending is not a literal thing. Hell, even before he gets to the Citadel after being hit with the beam, the surroundings have changed to include dream-trees & shrubs and some weird mass of bodies.

 

Nope, the ending is anything but literal in my opinion.

[Wayning_Star]

Its NOT rocket science OP...urrr, well maybe it is but...

 

 

really tho it (original ending sans the add on helper/save universe primer for dummies) seemed to me that one was just about a bunch of bugs taking over the system with the help of a super computer and we (captain kirk) had to revitalize spock to get the system rebooted, one way or another.  3 ways to skin the cat, player orientation depending. Hard left center or hard right..

[Ithurael]

Oh...it sounds more like you are talking about the IT con theory...however...to cite a few points:

 

Uhh.. Because he's still standing on Earth, which is engulfed in a fireball?

 

This was clarified by Michael Gambol. He is on the citadel. That is where he will be until bio retcons that or releases another statement saying otherwise.

 

 

Okay, so this needs a bit of updating. Here's the thing. The ending sucked, I hated it,

 

As did I and many others, you are not alone.

 

 

 

But now, after the years have gone by, I look at all these indoctrination theory videos and all the hints throughout the game, and I think this is what Bioware intended. They had an indoctrination ending in mind the whole time, they just couldn't finish it properly, perhaps in the correct time frame. And so while they might not have dotted all the I's and crossed all the T's, they did put the majority of the framework into place and made a suitably 'out of body experience' ending that fitted along with the whole idea. So sure, all questions can't be answered, but I think there's more than enough there to believe that the ending is not a literal thing. Hell, even before he gets to the Citadel after being hit with the beam, the surroundings have changed to include dream-trees & shrubs and some weird mass of bodies.

 

Nope, the ending is anything but literal in my opinion.

 

Now to the meat...

 

To clarify. IT (or Indoctrination theory) has a few Variants:

 

IT Vanilla - Everything after the Harbinger blast is a total dream/never happened/all an elaborate hallucination. The crucible never fires. Everything is a metaphor. Once shep shoots the tube he wakes up and Harbinger & the reapers are still out there reaping

 

IT V2 - Shep is on the citadel, the TIM sequence really happened but everything with the starchild is a dream, the crucible never fires, everything is a metaphor. Once shep shoots the tube he wakes up and Harbinger & the reapers are still out there reaping

 

Waking Nightmare - Not totally versed in this one but I will explain it as best I can. The entire of Priority Earth is a kind of dream and everything is very dream-esq leading to the final charge which - in the end is all a total dream. Crucible doesn't fire, everything is a metaphor. Once shep shoots the tube he wakes up and Harbinger & the reapers are still out there reaping

 

CW or Choose Wisely - ugh...this is a toughy...Essentially everything is a game by the Leviathans and the reapers reap for them or something...or it is a chess game of Reapers vs Leviathans. Somehow choosing destroy activates the crucible. The endings actually happen. blah blah blah.

 

IT Con - Everything is actually happening, the starjob is real, and is trying to convince you to pick Control or Synthesis over destroy. Once chosen the crucible DOES fire and the ending is resolved. Though if you chose control or synthesis the slideshow you get is just a fabrication of the reapers. (I think this is kinda what you are saying).

 

Which version/variant of IT are you saying happened? When you said the Geth Matrix bit it sounded like you were leaning towards the IT vanilla theory though.

 

Regardless, as I have said before. Indoctrination is not about subversion (or trickery) it was about domination. Forceful at that. If you are to say that indoctrination was writer intent the entire time...ehhhhhhh. I am not sure about that. As for the trees and shrubs...they were there before the beam run. And the bodies were there before the blast and even at the collector ship in ME2. Does that mean ME2 was a dream (though many on this forum wish it was lol)

 

Also, from a gameplay perspective, it would make more sense to have the three choices show up no matter what. But yet...for reasons unknown. The catalyst just 'gives' shep the ability to break indoctrination in low ems (destroying the base) because of...reasons. IT has never come up with an in game answer for this that did not involve a bunch of headcanon or speculation. Failshep and Winshep (low & high EMS respectivly) accomplish nearly the same thing. They both stop Soverign, destroy the collectors, and unify all/most of the Galaxy. There is honestly no point in indoctrinating shepard since we know via meta knowledge (eg refusal ending) that the reapers will win regardless. They don't need an indoctrinated shepard to bring down nations...they are already doing that lol.

 

So, even with all of that we then look at bioware's response to IT. So far they have called it a fan theory, dis-proven one of the biggest points of the theory (shep was on earth the entire time), and never followed up with the actual ending (assuming that is the version of IT you are linking to where the real ending hasn't happened yet). hell...Even Mac Walters considers Shep dead...and shep only dies in the 'indoctrinated' endings.

 

While I love your enthusiasm for IT and the material, I can't help but think you are putting energy into false hope. While I know IT or its variants works for some, so far based on the responses from bioware and the material they gave us IT appears to not have been the intended ending (not even in the leaked script).

[Ithurael]

Also, even in the Final Hours videos bio stated they had an idea for an Indoctrination Storyline to be used as a gameplay element. However this was dropped as it was too hard to implement.

 

Now, This was dropped as a gameplay element but later used in a cutscene with TIM. Everything that IS indoctrination is right there. There score in the background is called Indoctrinated, there are oily shadows and such, shep is having headaches, and the player even looses control of shepard during the cutscene as he is 'dominated' by TIM. In the end though, through dialog you can either break the indoctrination and Kill TIM, Let TIM kill himself, or be killed by TIM (ending in a critical mission failure) Right there! That is your indoctrination scene. Everything with starbrat...that shows no sign of indoctrination - at all.

[GalacticWolf5]

No, it all happened. It just wasn't Shepard's choice -

 

That doesn't make any sense.... You're saying it happened but that Shepard didn't make the choise by himself. If it happened it means that Control works and doesn't indoctrinate because Shep controls the Reapers, so why would the Reapers make him chose Control only to make it work...

 

through all 3 games he's wanting to destroy the Reapers, put an end to them and their cycle, and then when it finally comes to it, he changes his mind and decides to control them? This was the indoctrination, it was suggesting that control was the better option, but he still had a chance to refuse it. If you pick Control then the Reapers basically win, you've done exactly what they wanted you to do - remember, Cerberus was completely indoctrinated and wanted Control, as did the Prothean rebels who wanted to allow Control through the Crucible too.

 

Of course through the 3 games he wants to destroy the Reapers. In ME1 he doesn't know anything about them except that they harvest civilizations, everyone with a sane mind would want to get rid of them. In ME2, it's the same. Only in ME3 does he learns about the Crucible and why the Reapers are doing this. His vision of things can change because he now has other possibilities that would work too (even though Destroy is just a temporary solution). Control is not suggested as the better option, Synthesis is. The Catalyst clearly wants to achieve Synthesis because it's the perfect solution to stop Organic/Synthetic conflicts.

 

You talk like the Catalyst has some evil master plan or something, but it really doesn't. It's not evil. It's just trying to find a solution to the conflicts.

[WizzyWarlock]

Only in ME3 does he learns about the Crucible and why the Reapers are doing this. His vision of things can change because he now has other possibilities that would work too (even though Destroy is just a temporary solution). Control is not suggested as the better option, Synthesis is. The Catalyst clearly wants to achieve Synthesis because it's the perfect solution to stop Organic/Synthetic conflicts.

 

You talk like the Catalyst has some evil master plan or something, but it really doesn't. It's not evil. It's just trying to find a solution to the conflicts.

You learn about the why of things in the very last minute, when you have no choice but to make a selection. What basically happens here is, "Hi Shep! I'm the master of the Reapers! You know, the massive robots that have wiped out civilizations for the past few billion years? The ones that are right now blowing apart your armada and wiping out your planet? Yeah, that's me! Hey, how you doing..? Okay, so, this might sound totally unbelievable, but if you just like.. die.. your choice how to die, but yeah, if you just die.. the universe will be saved! How about that? That sound cool to you? Oh great. Just go grab those electro-shock devices and it'll all work out fine. Cheers Shep! See ya later!".

 

And yet Shepard is supposed to just take this all at face value? With the extended cut you can now refuse to do it, which is good, and that ending just shows it's just a Reaper ploy. The kids voice changes into a booming Reaper voice and you die. And of course you have the kid as the perfect example of why this is happening inside Shepards head. How, exactly, does this AI/Reaper know about the kid and its appearance if it's not inside Shepards head? Did it just manage to pluck the image from its database completely at random, so its a complete coincidence that it looks like the kid that's been haunting Shepards dreams?

[WizzyWarlock]

Which version/variant of IT are you saying happened? When you said the Geth Matrix bit it sounded like you were leaning towards the IT vanilla theory though.

None of the above. Indoctrination, as you know, is only a form of suggestion, it can't force you to do something against your will, it just makes you believe what you are doing is for your version of the greater good. It can also give you 'ghostly hallucinations'. This is all in the codex entry.

 

This is my view of the ending: Harbinger fires the beam as a hallucination and starts playing with your mind, so you see those dream-trees and think you've been injured. You continue to the beam. The beam doesn't take you up to the Citadel, it's actually like entering the Geth matrix, everything is a computer construct for the Crucible control system. While you're inside this matrix gaining access to the control system, Harbinger tries to indoctrinate you further, using TIM as his 'voice of reason', while Anderson is your own concious fighting against the attempt. You fight against this again and move closer to the control panel, but as you're about to make your choice Harbinger assaults your mind again. This time he appears as the kid from your dreams, suggesting better choices than a simple destroy option. If your EMS is low then your mind is still strong and focused, thus he can't make the suggestion of alternate choices, but if you've been through so much, seen synthetics work together with organics, saved various parts of the galaxy, then your mind is scrambled, you have more to consider, so the options open up because in your mind you don't want all that hard work to go to waste. So you make your choice and the Crucible fires. If you've picked anything but Destroy, Harbingers indoctrination has influenced your decision and the Reapers get to live on and you become an indoctrinated husk. If you pick Destroy, then you break the indoctrination attempt and either a. you still die because your mind has been savaged, or b. you fight off the indoctrination and wake up back on Earth.

 

You can argue some of those points, I'm sure, about developers saying this and that. But really, they've never made any attempt to explain this ending and keeping you away from the truth of the ending is just pushing the point that you're not supposed to know it's indoctrination. If they came out and said, "Oh, the ending is this.", then the illusion would be gone and we wouldn't still be discussing this years after the games release. Maybe I'm kidding myself, but as you said they initially wanted an indoctrination ending, so was the decision not to a choice at the end, or was it before programming began? Because as far as I can see, the rest of the game really leads up to this indoctrination idea, the ending is just more confused than it needed to be.

[Valmar]

You learn about the why of things in the very last minute, when you have no choice but to make a selection. What basically happens here is, "Hi Shep! I'm the master of the Reapers! You know, the massive robots that have wiped out civilizations for the past few billion years? The ones that are right now blowing apart your armada and wiping out your planet? Yeah, that's me! Hey, how you doing..? Okay, so, this might sound totally unbelievable, but if you just like.. die.. your choice how to die, but yeah, if you just die.. the universe will be saved! How about that? That sound cool to you? Oh great. Just go grab those electro-shock devices and it'll all work out fine. Cheers Shep! See ya later!".

 

 

And yet Shepard is supposed to just take this all at face value? With the extended cut you can now refuse to do it, which is good, and that ending just shows it's just a Reaper ploy. The kids voice changes into a booming Reaper voice and you die. And of course you have the kid as the perfect example of why this is happening inside Shepards head. How, exactly, does this AI/Reaper know about the kid and its appearance if it's not inside Shepards head? Did it just manage to pluck the image from its database completely at random, so its a complete coincidence that it looks like the kid that's been haunting Shepards dreams?

 

1. No you don't, you learn about the 'why' in the Leviathan dlc first.

 

2. They're not massive robots. Misconception.

 

3. They don't wipe out civilizations. Misconception.

 

4. He does explain how those things work. You're just not happy with the explanation.

 

5. Shepard certainly doesn't have to take it at face value. Mine doesn't. The player certainly should though. See, as the player, we have the amazing power to metagame. We can actually look at the endings and see if they are real or just a lie. Oh hey, look, grabbing these rods DID make Shepard reaper-god. Oh hey, look, shooting this tube DID kill the reapers. Oh hey, look, jumping into that beam did change all life in the galaxy somehow. We, the player, can confirm all this to be factual truth.

 

6. You're working on the assumption that it is the same kid. They purposely distorted the model heavily and overlapped the voice files. Shepard also makes zero mention of it despite mentioning similar oddities throughout the game. It's more realistic, imo, to assume they just reused the only child model they had in the game and modified it and it isn't meant to literally the same kid. The art of Mass Effect book also doesn't mention it, despite having a section about the child on earth.

 

This is similar to how the rubble in the breathing scene looks like reused art assets from London but they've CONFIRMED that its, in the lore, meant to be the citadel. Bioware has a long history of reusing art assets, this is nothing new.

 

 

 

But really, they've never made any attempt to explain this ending

 

 

They made two DLCs explaining the ending. Just because you don't like the explanation they provided doesn't mean they didn't make an attempt.

[Ithurael]

None of the above. Indoctrination, as you know, is only a form of suggestion, it can't force you to do something against your will, it just makes you believe what you are doing is for your version of the greater good. It can also give you 'ghostly hallucinations'. This is all in the codex entry.

 

No...it is clearly not. The codex tells you what it is, what it does, and the affect it has. You are headcanoning what you want to make the ending more enjoyable.

 

From the codex (the literal codex):

Reaper "Indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

 

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination

 

Where...in ANY of that do you see that the reaper is suggesting anything to you? Suggestion comes only after control over the limbic system is established. By then it is too late!

 

None of the salarians at sarens base believed in what they were doing was for the greater good, they just did it because they were forced to.

 

Also a ghostly hallucination? How is this equal to the TIM/Anderson scene? The Catalsyst scene? The hallucinations were described in the codex and detailed in the ME2 Derilict Reaper mission. One of the poor cerberus team memebers would see a flash of something that appeared and disappeared. This is what a hallucination is. What you are describing (eg the entire ending sequence being a total fabrication and not real) is NOT a hallucination. Here is the definition of what a hallucination is:

 

define:hallucination

"an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present."

 

and here is the definition of a dream:

https://www.google.c...ox-a&channel=sb

 

define:dream

"a series of thoughts, images, and sensations occurring in a person's mind during sleep."

https://www.google.c...ox-a&channel=sb

 

now. From what you are describing seems more like a dream...as there are many thoughts, images, and even sensations (as it is the entire ending sequence). So, where in the codex definition of indoctrination do you see the word dream?

 

 

 

This is my view of the ending: Harbinger fires the beam as a hallucination and starts playing with your mind, so you see those dream-trees and think you've been injured. You continue to the beam. The beam doesn't take you up to the Citadel, it's actually like entering the Geth matrix, everything is a computer construct for the Crucible control system. While you're inside this matrix gaining access to the control system, Harbinger tries to indoctrinate you further, using TIM as his 'voice of reason', while Anderson is your own concious fighting against the attempt. You fight against this again and move closer to the control panel, but as you're about to make your choice Harbinger assaults your mind again. This time he appears as the kid from your dreams, suggesting better choices than a simple destroy option. If your EMS is low then your mind is still strong and focused, thus he can't make the suggestion of alternate choices, but if you've been through so much, seen synthetics work together with organics, saved various parts of the galaxy, then your mind is scrambled, you have more to consider, so the options open up because in your mind you don't want all that hard work to go to waste. So you make your choice and the Crucible fires. If you've picked anything but Destroy, Harbingers indoctrination has influenced your decision and the Reapers get to live on and you become an indoctrinated husk. If you pick Destroy, then you break the indoctrination attempt and either a. you still die because your mind has been savaged, or b. you fight off the indoctrination and wake up back on Earth.

 

 

That is ALL speculation and headcanon. Indoctrination has never worked like this. i have demonstrated this above. If you want this to be your ending to make you enjoy the game - go for it. However, as I have said, as I have proven, Bioware has confirmed Shepard is ON THE CITADEL in the breath scene. So you are going to have to redo your theory a bit. And the trees and bodies are there before you get zapped by harbinger - sorry man.

 

 

 

You can argue some of those points, I'm sure, about developers saying this and that.

 

The developers, producer, and community managers said what they said. That is what the established canon is until they retcon it with another statement or another game. You are just going to have to deal with it.

 

 

But really, they've never made any attempt to explain this ending and keeping you away from the truth of the ending is just pushing the point that you're not supposed to know it's indoctrination. If they came out and said, "Oh, the ending is this.", then the illusion would be gone and we wouldn't still be discussing this years after the games release.

 

They did make an attempt to explain the ending...it was the EC and Leviathan. One was free the other costs $10. And, as I have proven in almost every one of my posts that I have on this subject - Indoctrination does NOT do what you are saying! This is reinforced by the codex that I have cited, the lore, the narrative, and the dialog.

 

 

Maybe I'm kidding myself, but as you said they initially wanted an indoctrination ending, so was the decision not to a choice at the end, or was it before programming began? Because as far as I can see, the rest of the game really leads up to this indoctrination idea, the ending is just more confused than it needed to be.

 

They did initially want an indoctrination ending, then they said they dropped it. Indoctrination was not even in the leaked script!

 

And these indoctrination videos you watch (assuming they are the most butthurt person in the world that is CleverNoob) was trying to use IT to fill in the plotholes to the ME3 ending. He does NOT believe in IT, he just wants a new ending.

 

The ending was written by Mac Walters and Casey Hudson without Peer Review! Of course it was going to be confusing, condtradicting lore, and making little sense given the content of the trilogy. But they were on a limited time frame, the original ending was leaked, and had to make due. And also, why would bio ever choose to say "oh it is this vs that"? Bio sold tons of DLC because all of the ITers "loved" the ending and ate it all up believing that there was more to come. If Bio said it is IT or it isn't IT, they are potentially losing customers and sales.

 

Your imagination is great, as I have said before, but IT is NOT what bio had intended. This is shown in the codex, the lore, the narrative, and the dialog. Here is an example:

 

Using the codex and the conversation with the Rachni queen we know what the symptoms of indoctrination are:

- hallucinations

- oily shadows

- headaches

 

These are ALL present in the TIM confrontation. THAT is your IT moment man! Even the music tells you it is indoctrination. But, in the end, shep/the player breaks TIMs hold and convinces TIM to shoot himself, kills TIM, or gets killed by TIM. Where in the scene with the Catalyst do you see the all of the following symptoms:

- hallucinations

- oily shadows

- headaches

 

The TIM sequence had all of the known symptoms of indoctrination.

 

And while I don't think you are kidding yourself too much, I think you are placing all this emphasis on indoctrination because you see it as a great way out for your beloved trilogy. However, as I have shown and proven - with citations - indoctrination simply does NOT work in the way you are describing it is working. And your opinion of what is going on directly contradicts what the producer has told us about the fate of shepard and it directly contradicts the codex and established lore of how indoctrination works.

 

Sorry to crush the sandcastle man but, it had to be done. If you can, rework your theory with the evidence from Gambol and the information from the codex. To date, the IT con theory seems the most plausable. Where the Catalyst is trying to trick shepard into choosing Control/Synth over Destroy (though that theory only works for High EMS and not low EMS).

[dorktainian]

Does anyone know what Bioware 'actually' wanted their ending to be? Regardless of any theories, fan or otherwise, also disregarding Flavors / Colours?  

 

I mean you know i'm an IT supporter, just because it makes it all sort of make sense.  If it aint IT, then what the heck happened?  How did Shepard end the reaper threat?  By colouring in the universe in one of three colours?  By Killing himself therefore taking away the reapers motivation for being there?  By confusing starjar with Spacemagic?  By proving once and for all that humans can breath in the vacuum of space?  By forming a circuit bridge in a reaper kill switch?  By shooting a glass tube did he somehow remove the reapers ability to fight?  By throwing himself into the bog of eternal stench did he dissolve the reapers in a guff of fan logic?

 

Will we ever get a definitive answer?

[angol fear]

The original ending is what they wanted their ending to be. As long as people won't admit it, they won't understand it, it makes more sense than I.T. and any other ending made by fans.

[Ithurael]

The original ending is what they wanted their ending to be. As long as people won't admit it, they won't understand it, it makes more sense than I.T. and any other ending made by fans.

 

Actually, if indoctrination had the ability to actually create dreamscapes like Leviathan Entrallment did then IT would be, by far, the most sensible way to view the ending minus one issue.

 

That issue being why would Harbinger even bother to indoctrinate shep in the final battle? I mean...think about it. There is absolutly NO reason the reapers need shepard as an agent. They are already bringing down nations, planets and inevitably will bring down advanced civilizations. So what purpose would an indoctrinated shepard bring? To affect the enemy moral? The reapers don't care about that and have shown no interest in that. They will win regardless. They don't need to break the moral of the galactic community like a bunch of school yard bullies lol. "Yo Look!! We Got Your Shepard! We Got Your Shepard Right Here!!!!"

 

It really makes no sense. However, indoctrinating shepard in ME1 or ME2 makes sense as the reapers still need the help of slaves to prepare the way or enable the relay. But once they have arrived and are reaping...that just makes no sense - at least to me...

[WizzyWarlock]

Actually, if indoctrination had the ability to actually create dreamscapes like Leviathan Entrallment did then IT would be, by far, the most sensible way to view the ending minus one issue.

 

That issue being why would Harbinger even bother to indoctrinate shep in the final battle? I mean...think about it. There is absolutly NO reason the reapers need shepard as an agent. They are already bringing down nations, planets and inevitably will bring down advanced civilizations. So what purpose would an indoctrinated shepard bring? To affect the enemy moral? The reapers don't care about that and have shown no interest in that. They will win regardless. They don't need to break the moral of the galactic community like a bunch of school yard bullies lol. "Yo Look!! We Got Your Shepard! We Got Your Shepard Right Here!!!!"

 

It really makes no sense. However, indoctrinating shepard in ME1 or ME2 makes sense as the reapers still need the help of slaves to prepare the way or enable the relay. But once they have arrived and are reaping...that just makes no sense - at least to me...

The reason is pretty simple. Firstly, they were indoctrinating him to do exactly what he did, bring the might of the galaxy to one remote location so the Reapers can blast the hell out of everything at once. However, once the Crucible is in play, the Catalyst knows that they can have Synthesis. This is exactly what they've been searching for the whole time. The Reapers have spent millennia trying to solve the problem of synthetics and organics blowing the hell out of each other, if the two can be combined then the problem is over and the Catalysts' job is done. However, the Reapers know full well that, given the option, the Crucible will likely be used to destroy them. So they keep Shepard alive and try to indoctrinate him into making the Synthesis choice. 

 

I know, you keep saying they can force him to do it, but they can't. You're misreading the codex entry. Note, ".. highly susceptible to its suggestion.". That doesn't say dance like a puppet, do what we want right now. It's susceptible to suggestions. Just take a look at Saren at the end of ME1. If he was under direct control, he wouldn't have realised that something was wrong, that there was still a chance, he wouldn't have been able to put a bullet in his head to stop it. What about Thana Ranoptis, the email in ME3, where it states she heard voices in her head, telling her of the ascension of the Asari, that anyone fighting the Reapers needed to die. If they just wanted her to kill people then they wouldn't have even needed a reason, they would have just forced her to do it.

[Ithurael]

I know, you keep saying they can force him to do it, but they can't. You're misreading the codex entry. Note, ".. highly susceptible to its suggestion.".

 

The suggestion comes...AFTER the control over the limbic system is established. Once you have control over the limbic system, you can 'suggest' whatever you want and the victim will do whatever you say. Here is some information on the limbic system for furture reference

http://en.wikipedia....i/Limbic_system

 

I never misread the codex. Please read the entire codex first, then look at your theory, then apply the knowledge from the codex to the theory you have. The only way I have seen in the series to break indoctrination - once one is indoctrinated - is to shoot themselves in the head or die. If shep is undergoing rapid indoctrination...this would be targeting his limbic system at an alarming rate -and again when referring to the codex - this will cause rapid neural decay to the point he will become a gibbering animal even if he 'breaks' indoctrination. Also...indoctrination, itself, has never directly killed anyone. So your theory that shepard being killed by indoctrination is incorrect. Also, indoctrination does not auto turn its victims into husks. Husks are, essentially, reanimated corpses that are given function through reaper implants and nanites.

 

I think there is a misconception that indoctrination is like a spell or something. From what the game tells us and what we see - it is not. It is a process that is absolute. People can 'snap out' for an instant, but inevitably fall back in. In ME1 we learn that the affects of indoctrination are absolute and irreversable.

 

 

What about Thana Ranoptis, the email in ME3, where it states she heard voices in her head, telling her of the ascension of the Asari, that anyone fighting the Reapers needed to die. If they just wanted her to kill people then they wouldn't have even needed a reason, they would have just forced her to do it.

 

Well, lets look at the codex to determine the symptoms:

- hears voices = check

- views reapers with superstitious awe = check

- (I think this is in the game or mentioned in an alliance broadcast in ME3) complains of headaches = check

 

In the end, she blew herself up no matter what. There was no 'breaking' the attempt or trickery. Control over her limbic system was already established and the reapers suggestion: "that anyone fighting the Reapers needed to die" was in place.

 

The order goes: electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise THEN gain control over Limbic System THEN the reaper begins suggesting.

 

That is literally told to us in the codex. I know you want the ending to be a great 'battle of wills' but when bioware designed the mass effect lore, they were pretty definative of what indoctrination can do and what it can't do.

 

Now to the second point:

 

 

The reason is pretty simple. Firstly, they were indoctrinating him to do exactly what he did, bring the might of the galaxy to one remote location so the Reapers can blast the hell out of everything at once. However, once the Crucible is in play, the Catalyst knows that they can have Synthesis. This is exactly what they've been searching for the whole time. The Reapers have spent millennia trying to solve the problem of synthetics and organics blowing the hell out of each other, if the two can be combined then the problem is over and the Catalysts' job is done. However, the Reapers know full well that, given the option, the Crucible will likely be used to destroy them. So they keep Shepard alive and try to indoctrinate him into making the Synthesis choice. 

 

IT states the indoctrination began after harbinger zapped him...or are you saying it started before? If so, how? The reaper IFF mission? That needed prolonged contact to work and shep was probably there only 30 mins (rana was on Virmire for a good while doing her research). The Arrival DLC? That was an optional DLC. While the events happened (relay destroyed) shepard participating or his actions are optional - if shepard never did Arrival Hackett sends a military squad to do it.

 

Also, if shepard was being indoctrinated over the course of the game...why didn't vendetta detect it? That was fairly late in the game and shepard already had the 'idea' to unite the galaxies forces well into his head. Thus, going back, the 'suggestion' is there, which means his limbic system is compromised...

 

Also, the reapers have not been looking for the solution to the org vs synth conflict...they ARE the solution to it - rather, the catalysts solution. By harvesting all advanced life every 50k years they prevent advanced organic life from being killed by the synthetic life they create. The crucible - when docked - gives the catalyst 3 new (at most) solutions to its problem of synthetics killing all organics. The catalyst wants synthesis because...for reasonz...it will end the synthetic/organic difference (though it gives nothing to the thought of these new hybrid lifeforms creating purley synthetic lifeforms -again - and being wiped out by those purley synthetic life forms) ugh...i digress. The reapers objective was and is to harvest all organic life because the catalyst created them to do this and it controls them to do this.

 

Also, if you paid attention to the dialog with glowjob, you will notice that it attempted synthesis before and it failed. (It is inferred this is the reapers). So...the catalyst does NOT need shepard to enact synthesis. Hell, it could just get a keeper to grab one of those dead bodies and throw it into the beam...or it could have gotten one of the humans in the citadel to throw into the beam. When looking at the ending critically and objectivley we find TONS of issues, errors, and questions...

 

Just install MEHEM man...that is honestly the best ending you will ever get.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The reason is pretty simple. Firstly, they were indoctrinating him to do exactly what he did, bring the might of the galaxy to one remote location so the Reapers can blast the hell out of everything at once. However, once the Crucible is in play, the Catalyst knows that they can have Synthesis. This is exactly what they've been searching for the whole time. The Reapers have spent millennia trying to solve the problem of synthetics and organics blowing the hell out of each other, if the two can be combined then the problem is over and the Catalysts' job is done. However, the Reapers know full well that, given the option, the Crucible will likely be used to destroy them. So they keep Shepard alive and try to indoctrinate him into making the Synthesis choice. 

The reason is pretty simple. Firstly, they were indoctrinating him to do exactly what he did, bring the might of the galaxy to one remote location so the Reapers can blast the hell out of everything at once. However, once the Crucible is in play, the Catalyst knows that they can have Synthesis. This is exactly what they've been searching for the whole time. The Reapers have spent millennia trying to solve the problem of synthetics and organics blowing the hell out of each other, if the two can be combined then the problem is over and the Catalysts' job is done. However, the Reapers know full well that, given the option, the Crucible will likely be used to destroy them. So they keep Shepard alive and try to indoctrinate him into making the Synthesis choice. 

 

Then why doesn't the Catalyst order up a husk or two to forcibly chuck Shepard into the beam? Or just bring up another organic to throw in? If using Indoctrination to coerce Shepard into choosing Synthesis isn't 'forcing' it then surely simply throwing a person in isn't either (also, would a giant laser beam really be able to discern that kind of thing?).

[Alamar2078]

@Valmar:  I may be misreading or misinterpreting your reply but I may have to disagree with you.

 

1.  When the game was originally released there weren't DLCs that added clarity.  Based on the OPs comments I "assume" that he's mostly referring to the originally released product and not necessarily the current state of the game.  Mention of the EC is made and it does a fairly good job of putting lipstick on a pig but underneath the makeup the pig is still there.

 

2. If you want to get picky they're not massive "robots" at all -- I'll give you that.  They are gestault beings in a syntho-organic body that are largely under the control of the Catalyst [starbrat].  From the outside though if you just look at their general [non-harvesting] behavior it is tough to tell them apart from giant robots.  I suspect the OP was being flippant [word use?] as opposed to trying to convey a more accurate description.

 

3.  Actually the Reapers do a pretty good job of wiping out civilizations [that they decide to reap].  Extermination does a pretty good job of that.  NOTE:  I do realize that the beings are largely harvested as opposed to killed but I contend that the original culture & civilization of a reaped species dies when the reaping has been completed.  Anything left is NOT a continuation of the original culture & civilization.

 

4.  Once again in the original endings a lot of things are not explained well [if at all].  For example how does Synthesis [green space magic] work within the lore system of ME?  Does it change the laws of physics / chemistry / biology / etc. preventing future organic species from arising?  Does it prevent future AIs from being developed?  Is Synthesis a "one time event" or does it get repeated every so often to prevent new cycles from appearing?  What sense is there in shooting a tube for Destroy?  Does EDI & the Geth get wiped out because they have Reaper tech in them OR would it effect all AIs?  What is the basis for this working?  How will it effect Quarians or others with lots of advanced synthetic integration?  If the Mass Relays are destroyed will that cause all of the Relays to go up in a supernova that causes more permanent damage than the Reapers have ever done?  With "control" how does that work if I'm dead?  If "I lose everything" will part of what I lose be my humanity so that while I'll have my experiences & memories will I also have an ability to make a decision on anything with something other than "cold logic"?  Can I turn off the "indoctrination effect" the Reapers & their artifacts have?  If I gain control is there a way someone / something else can "revert to last checkpoint" and purge me from the system?  Are the Reapers "slaves" or is the gestalt constructed with some type of Reaper-overlay on top of it so that the billion minds are enslaved?

 

I could list questions for hours that go largely [entirely?] unexplained in the regular endings and even the full endings don't necessarily answer everything nearly as well as I'd prefer.

 

5.  Making the point that we should "metagame" isn't nearly as satisfying as a well constructed story through the trilogy [including the ending] would have been.

 

6.  With so many models to choose from I think it's [at best] foolish to assume that it's not supposed to be the same kid as before and it's just "reused resources".  The fact that Shep makes no mention of it doesn't hold much water when you consider that Shep forgets [or at least acts surprised] by data that he already knows about.  As a former developer I know that I usually didn't leave a major decision [character choice] like the Catalyst to chance.  Shep's image, his LI, Anderson or TIM depending on if he's Paragon or Renegade, EDI, etc. would all have been better deliberate choices than the "oh lets reuse the only kid model we have".

 

As far as the rubble at the end goes when was that confirmed?  Note:  I'm not surprised that it is intended / true but I wasn't aware that it had been officially confirmed by someone in-the-know.

[Valmar]

@Alamar

 

1. He can refer to oldest model of the ending, sure. That doesn't mean I shouldn't call him out when he says something that isn't true, though. He shouldn't be using the DLC-less version of a game as a model, anyway.

 

2. He very well might have been. That is a fault of his, not mine, though. Though I'm willing to bet he does think they're giant robots. Simply because the majority of people who hate and whine about the ending seem to have this misconception. EDI didn't smack us hard enough in ME2. Bit of a shame really.

 

It may indeed be 'tough' to see them as anything else than robots, sure. That doesn't mean they are or that you should base your argument on them around that. It isn't true. Just because it isn't necessarily 'easy' to understand (though I'd say it is) doesn't mean we should pretend it isn't so. Besides, imo, anyone who can spend so much time hyper-analyzing every little detail to make up a crazy story like IT should be more than capable of understanding that the reaper's are not robots. 

 

3. While what you say isn't untrue, its still seems like an argument of semantics.

 

4. Synthesis isn't well explained regardless of it being original or extended cut. That doesn't mean it isn't explained. The differnece here is that we're not happy with the explanation. You're not, he isn't and I'm certainly not. I'm not going to pretend the ending didn't happen just because I don't like its ******-poor explanation. It still happened. I know it happened because I watched it happen as the player, I can confirm its real.

 

Shepard doesn't have that benefit so he'd have to accept the brat's word on it if he was to choose synthesis. For all he knows jumping in that beam does nothing but kill himself. We're the player, though, we DO know what happens. We can confirm it is real. I don't put my fingers in my ears and go la-la-la just because I don't like the explanation or indeed even the ending itself. I know it happened, Im not going to insist that my preferred fanfiction is the real story and everyone else was wrong.

 

In regards to the other endings though, destroy and control, I felt he explained it well enough. Are there more specifics I'd like to know? Sure, who wouldn't want more lore. However that is NOT the time to be having a long lecture. We can mock the starbrat all we want for being vague and non-specific - the fact of the matter remains that now is the absolute worst time to be having a damn debate. Just hurry up and stop the reapers already. For this reason my Shepard zips through the dialogue as quickly as possible. I had one objective: destroy the reapers. I'm not going to waste time and ultimately lives just to have tea and crumpets with the enemy.

 

 

5. I don't actually like to metagame. It robs of the experience. This is being said from the perspective of Shepard, though. As the player, we should acknowledge the existence of lore even if our playthrough didn't have it. Shepard is dead in the synthesis ending. He has no idea what happens. So am I supposed to just ignore the ending from that point on as the player? No, of course not. I saw the ending happen. It was real.

 

6. Just like people said it was foolish to think Shepard woke up on the citadel when the rubble looked like it was from London?

Coincidentally the kid just being a modified but borrowed art asset fits well with the whole "the ending was rushed at the last moment with no oversight" thing.