200 réponses à ce sujet

[Rannik]

Stop being straight then.

 

There, solved.

[LD Little Dragon]

OP has the most liberal notion of 'straight male' I've ever heard of if he's including Anders and Fenris in there.

 

Not much left unless he wants to romance the Mabari.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

 

Romance sucks for everyone equally.

 

(Yeah, I know I already said it, but apparently it didn't sink in, so I thought it bared repeating.)

[TheodoricFriede]

Im sorry, but Merrill.

 

Your opinion is no longer valid.

[lightvsdarkness]

I thought about the same things and came to conclusion that if you are straight, Bioware games are not exactly for you anymore...

I'll be shocked if in future games there will be more then 2 straight out of10 romance-NPC.

Just like in the real medieval society btw... Very realistic.

[thats1evildude]

Me miss my Merrill. 

[InfinitePaths]

Erm...your first post "proved" that everyone in DA2 had shitty romances, not just straight males.(BTW since everyone is BI, then by your logic, lesbian romances suck equally as straight male ones)

 

2ndly...The chantry doesn't oppose same-sex relationships, so your Sebastian post made no sense.

 

EDIT:

 

I'l adress the Bethany request you made with a Leliana quote: "They say you should try everything out once, except for Incest and Qunari cousine."

[Silfren]

Just look at who the Romance choices are: A gloom-and-doom Anders that is literally possessed by his personal demon.  An inept Merrill that is absolutely convinced  that "I can handle this", despite a long history of failure and mortal consequences to questionable endeavors, resulting in her becoming a social outcast.  A sociopathic Isabella who doesn't care what consequences occur, just so long as she gets what she wants.  A bigoted escaped elf slave named Fenris that wants all mages to be dead or Tranquilized.  (Yeah, my sister should be euthanized just to satisfy your world view, Fenris.)  And lastly choir boy Sebastian that despite his extreme religious devotion, has no problem with homosexual affairs.

 

With choices like this, I'm surprised that they didn't add a little incest with Bethany.  At least she's a nice person.  Certainly a lot more appealing than any of the other Romance candidates.

 

I'm amused by the fact you open up with a complaint about the options available for straight males and then launch into a rant against ALL the LI options, even though only two of them actually qualify for "straight males."  

 

Also, I really don't understand the tack-on in the end about Sebastian not having a problem with homosexual affairs despite his extreme religious devotion.  It's off-topic of your own complaint but you just threw it in there like you forgot what you were even complaining about.  The religion Seb's a part of has no doctrine against homosexuality, so it isn't a case of his not being against it despite his religious views; you're making the mistake there of conflating RL religions that have built-in doctrines against it with a fictional one that does not.  Ergo, it's not strange at all for Seb to not have a problem even though he is extremely pious.

 

All that aside, why are we having this conversation again?  This EXACT topic, right down to the individual gripes against Anders et. al, has been had a million times.  I'd've have thought people would've moved on to b*tching about the LIs in Inquisition instead by now.

[Silfren]

I thought about the same things and came to conclusion that if you are straight, Bioware games are not exactly for you anymore...

I'll be shocked if in future games there will be more then 2 straight out of10 romance-NPC.

Just like in the real medieval society btw... Very realistic.

 

Yeah, um, no.  DA is NOT analogous to the "real medieval society," so this argument is completely invalid.  I'm also going to be presumptuous as hell and figure that you probably don't know much about the actual medieval period beyond popular misconceptions that everybody just "knows" about it, and I'm willing to bet that I'm pretty close to accurate in that assumption, too.

[Cyrus Amell]

I believe the medium is to blame, not the characters themselves. Dragon Age Origins romances took places in a short amount of time with well-developed characters who were given their own arcs and even moments of growth. The romances in Dragon Age 2 by contrast were dragged through most of a decade with each significant juncture in character development widely spaced out. Dragon Age 2 romances would have profited from a greater sense of immediacy rather than the tepid "meh, lets go off to bed" moment followed by half a decade of nothing more substantive. And of course, most importantly of all, production values.

 

Would Fenris' romance have been more intriguing with a scene were he took off his shirt and Hawke traced the Lyrium-imbued markings on his chest?

 

Would Isabela's romance have been funner if she actually did become a captain with a new ship and took Hawke on some "adventures" between one of the chapters?

 

Big or small, these additions would have cost development time and resources the team did not have. The game suffered for it and with it the series as a whole in my opinion.

[Natureguy85]

I believe the medium is to blame, not the characters themselves. Dragon Age Origins romances took places in a short amount of time with well-developed characters who were given their own arcs and even moments of growth. The romances in Dragon Age 2 by contrast were dragged through most of a decade with each significant juncture in character development widely spaced out. Dragon Age 2 romances would have profited from a greater sense of immediacy rather than the tepid "meh, lets go off to bed" moment followed by half a decade of nothing more substantive. And of course, most importantly of all, production values.

 

Would Fenris' romance have been more intriguing with a scene were he took off his shirt and Hawke traced the Lyrium-imbued markings on his chest?

 

Would Isabela's romance have been funner if she actually did become a captain with a new ship and took Hawke on some "adventures" between one of the chapters?

 

Big or small, these additions would have cost development time and resources the team did not have. The game suffered for it and with it the series as a whole in my opinion.

 

This is the problem with the entire game. Hawke has 10 years of time spent with these characters and we play 3 of them. Most of what happens is in time skips. Skipping the first year in Kirkwall was a huge mistake, especially.

[KaiserShep]

I thought about the same things and came to conclusion that if you are straight, Bioware games are not exactly for you anymore...

I'll be shocked if in future games there will be more then 2 straight out of10 romance-NPC.

Just like in the real medieval society btw... Very realistic.

 

Man if they wanted to ape real medieval society, my PC should be able to snag up some tavern wench and make wifey out of her instead.

[Zjarcal]

Anders and Fenris are straight romance options for males huh?

themoreyouknow.jpg

[jlb524]

Complaining about sucky straight male DA2 romances is sooooo 2011, isn't it?

[Bann Duncan]

Anders and Fenris are straight romance options for males huh?

themoreyouknow.jpg

 

Zjar, you're missing the point, which is...

 

OP has the most liberal notion of 'straight male' I've ever heard of if he's including Anders and Fenris in there.

 

Not much left unless he wants to romance the Mabari.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

If they suck, all you can hope for, is that the price is right.

[Bann Duncan]

If they suck, all you can hope for, is that the price is right.

 

[KaiserShep]

You really do have to appreciate the logo.

[Bann Duncan]

You really do have to appreciate the logo.

 

I don't know if maybe my GPU was just that bad when I originally played the game because I didn't notice anything about the logo, but when I played it this month it was abundantly clear.

[Gago]

I really wanted to visit the Tramp from Darktown. But alas it wasn't meant to be.

[CaptainPatch]

Responding to several posts in the thread.

 

I brought this subject back up because in anticipation of DA:I, which purportedly links the decisions of DA:O and DA2 and creates a personalized backstory to DA:I, I went back and replayed the two earlier games.  That freshened the memory of just how disappointing Romance options in Dragon Age is.  As someone said, its seems that ALL choices are bad choices.  Really, under any circumstances, are any of the LI candidates someone that anyone in their right minds would want to grow old with into their golden years?  Wham, bam, and move on to the next hook up is more like it.  And since these are the ONLY kinds of choices BioWare has put forward, whether they say it explicitly or not, it is an endorsement of the Hook Up lifestyle.  Don't look for True Love because in Reality, it simply doesn't exist.  Mr Right becomes Mr Right Now.  There is no "The One" anyone was "meant" to be with.

 

As for the Chantry not being analogous to any Real Life religion, why is that?  Sword & Sorcery Fantasy is usually loosely based on Dark Ages/Middle Ages European society with the aspect that Magic works, with all of the societal implications of that highly significant Given.  It therefore follows that any resident religion would have generally similar policies, even if the specific details were drastically different.  One of the foundation principles of most human religions is the idea that Mankind should "be fruitful and multiply".  Homosexuality by its very nature deters that policy: humans don't make babies when cavorting with people of the same gender.  At most, formal religions turn a blind eye towards homosexuality, and I can not think of _any_ that go so far as to endorse the practice.  In societies like Ancient Greece, the Society may have readily tolerated homosexuality, but aside from party hard deities like Bacchus, most deities don't go so far as to say that it's a Good Thing. So Thedas being more or less analogous to Dark Ages Europe, I would expect a similarly analogous religion structure.  Several have pointed out that the Chantry doesn't prohibit homosexuality, but is there anywhere that the Chantry _permits_ homosexuality?  If neither policy is stated, it can NOT be safely concluded that the Chantry is pro or con on the subject.  It's something that just has not been defined.  Deliberately, I believe.  If BioWare had declared one way or another on the subject, it would have alienated either homophobic customers if the Chantry boldly states, "We're fine with it" or homosexual customers that take umbrage at their chosen lifestyle being condemned.  To a business, it's better to say _nothing_ than it is to take sides when such a decision WILL reduce Sales.

 

All this aside, the whole purpose of replaying DAO and DA2 proved to be a waste now that it has become impossible for me to log in to the Origin servers when starting DAI.  If I want to play the game, I MUST use the Default World Setting.  So Romance in the Default is, I believe, no love life for the hero, and this whole discussion is moot.  Still, I just feel it would have been nice if BioWare had included some choices that weren't hopelessly emotionally and/or mentally scarred.

[Lady Artifice]

There's a wiki page on the subject. Sexuality in Thedas. It addresses the Chantry's very practical approach to the issue. 

 

Sure, the Chantry is somewhat analogous to real world Christianity/Catholicism. Somewhat. It's not a straightforward comparison and it's not supposed to be. The chant of light does not pay focus to homosexual relations. They approach homosexuality as a personal quirk rather than a sin.

 

Your suggestion that Sebastian is hypocritical for not condemning homosexuality because he's Andrastian is utterly fallacious, because the Chantry does not preach again homosexuality. 

[Kantr]

Why would a straight guy romance Anders?

[Silfren]

 

I brought this subject back up because in anticipation of DA:I, which purportedly links the decisions of DA:O and DA2 and creates a personalized backstory to DA:I, I went back and replayed the two earlier games.  That freshened the memory of just how disappointing Romance options in Dragon Age is.  As someone said, its seems that ALL choices are bad choices.  Really, under any circumstances, are any of the LI candidates someone that anyone in their right minds would want to grow old with into their golden years?  Wham, bam, and move on to the next hook up is more like it.  And since these are the ONLY kinds of choices BioWare has put forward, whether they say it explicitly or not, it is an endorsement of the Hook Up lifestyle.  Don't look for True Love because in Reality, it simply doesn't exist.  Mr Right becomes Mr Right Now.  There is no "The One" anyone was "meant" to be with.

 

As for the Chantry not being analogous to any Real Life religion, why is that?  Sword & Sorcery Fantasy is usually loosely based on Dark Ages/Middle Ages European society with the aspect that Magic works, with all of the societal implications of that highly significant Given.  It therefore follows that any resident religion would have generally similar policies, even if the specific details were drastically different.  One of the foundation principles of most human religions is the idea that Mankind should "be fruitful and multiply".  Homosexuality by its very nature deters that policy: humans don't make babies when cavorting with people of the same gender.  At most, formal religions turn a blind eye towards homosexuality, and I can not think of _any_ that go so far as to endorse the practice.  In societies like Ancient Greece, the Society may have readily tolerated homosexuality, but aside from party hard deities like Bacchus, most deities don't go so far as to say that it's a Good Thing. So Thedas being more or less analogous to Dark Ages Europe, I would expect a similarly analogous religion structure.  Several have pointed out that the Chantry doesn't prohibit homosexuality, but is there anywhere that the Chantry _permits_ homosexuality?  If neither policy is stated, it can NOT be safely concluded that the Chantry is pro or con on the subject.  It's something that just has not been defined.  Deliberately, I believe.  If BioWare had declared one way or another on the subject, it would have alienated either homophobic customers if the Chantry boldly states, "We're fine with it" or homosexual customers that take umbrage at their chosen lifestyle being condemned.  To a business, it's better to say _nothing_ than it is to take sides when such a decision WILL reduce Sales.

 

All this aside, the whole purpose of replaying DAO and DA2 proved to be a waste now that it has become impossible for me to log in to the Origin servers when starting DAI.  If I want to play the game, I MUST use the Default World Setting.  So Romance in the Default is, I believe, no love life for the hero, and this whole discussion is moot.  Still, I just feel it would have been nice if BioWare had included some choices that weren't hopelessly emotionally and/or mentally scarred.

 

Responding to your first paragraph:

 

Bear in mind that the nature of the LIs being inherently bad is just your opinion, it is not an objective analysis.  The only thing that can be objectively stated about them is that they are realistically human in their characterizations - but it is a fact that not everyone considers Isabela to be a sociopath, etc.  Moreover, I think the notion that Bioware is pushing the "hookup" lifestyle is overly paranoid and reading far too much into it.  You don't care for the LIs as they are given, but that hardly means, again, that your take on them is an objective study.

 

As to your second paragraph:

 

Nobody actually said that the Chantry wasn't analogous to any real world religion, and that would be an inaccurate statement to make anyway, as it is very clearly and obviously analogous to Catholicism.  That, however, doesn't mean that the doctrines are the same.  Your suggestion that Sebastian is not homophobic despite his being a fervent Chantryist (for lack of a better term) continues to make no sense because it is a fact of the DA lore that the Chantry does not preach against homosexuality.  It's not surprising at all that Seb isn't homophobic, in that context, because his religion doesn't tell him to be.  So, again, your tacked-on statement in the OP is just bizarre.  Your argument about sword and sorcery fiction usually being loosely based on the Dark Ages/Middle Ages is completely invalidated from the start because of that fact.  Whatever pattern "most" such fiction follows is totally irrelevant in this case because the DA Chantry's lack of being anti-homosexuality is an established fact of the lore.  I don't agree with the implication that a religious organization must put out an explicit statement of permission in order to be seen as okay with homosexuality.  Having no prohibition against it is quite sufficient to send the message that the Chantry doesn't care, which is, equally so, another way of saying that it does not impinge on Chantry doctrine.

 

In that same vein, the argument that "most x fiction follows a y pattern, therefore z" is just a really bad argument in general when discussing not the genre as a whole, but a specific story.  Just because most stories do follow a certain pattern hardly means that a given one will, and it certainly does not mean that you should assume that the pattern is already there when the story's internal lore already tells you, quite plainly, otherwise.

 

This is getting into problematic territory, but I'll go ahead and address the religious claims you make.  Simply put, I think you are oversimplifying the matter.  "Be fruitful and multiply" as a commandment is not an inherently anti-gay directive.  I'm sure you are aware that homosexuals are quite capable of procreating, as they can, and do, all the time, and always have.  People have ALWAYS been aware of this, religion or no religion.  Beyond that, I think you are forgetting that there are more religions than the Big Three to which you are referring, and also that perceptions of homosexuality within a religious framework has changed over the centuries.  There ARE religions which do somewhat more than merely tolerate homosexuality, and this is reflected in their gods, yes.  But quite frankly, I think you just have an overly simplistic understanding of homosexuality as viewed by various religions - you are operating apparently from the position that the modern perception of a few has been the definitive position of all from the beginning, and that is grossly inaccurate.

 

Beyond that, I will say that I don't think that DA is as closely matched up with the real world medieval period as a lot of people think anyway.  A while ago I read an article on this subject that placed it more within the (early?) Renaissance period, and backed it up with a lot of evidence.  I tend to agree with that, especially since the caveat was included that it was a loose basing, not a hard-line one.  

[InfinitePaths]

Responding to several posts in the thread.

 

I brought this subject back up because in anticipation of DA:I, which purportedly links the decisions of DA:O and DA2 and creates a personalized backstory to DA:I, I went back and replayed the two earlier games.  That freshened the memory of just how disappointing Romance options in Dragon Age is.  As someone said, its seems that ALL choices are bad choices.  Really, under any circumstances, are any of the LI candidates someone that anyone in their right minds would want to grow old with into their golden years?  Wham, bam, and move on to the next hook up is more like it.  And since these are the ONLY kinds of choices BioWare has put forward, whether they say it explicitly or not, it is an endorsement of the Hook Up lifestyle.  Don't look for True Love because in Reality, it simply doesn't exist.  Mr Right becomes Mr Right Now.  There is no "The One" anyone was "meant" to be with.

 

As for the Chantry not being analogous to any Real Life religion, why is that?  Sword & Sorcery Fantasy is usually loosely based on Dark Ages/Middle Ages European society with the aspect that Magic works, with all of the societal implications of that highly significant Given.  It therefore follows that any resident religion would have generally similar policies, even if the specific details were drastically different.  One of the foundation principles of most human religions is the idea that Mankind should "be fruitful and multiply".  Homosexuality by its very nature deters that policy: humans don't make babies when cavorting with people of the same gender.  At most, formal religions turn a blind eye towards homosexuality, and I can not think of _any_ that go so far as to endorse the practice.  In societies like Ancient Greece, the Society may have readily tolerated homosexuality, but aside from party hard deities like Bacchus, most deities don't go so far as to say that it's a Good Thing. So Thedas being more or less analogous to Dark Ages Europe, I would expect a similarly analogous religion structure.  Several have pointed out that the Chantry doesn't prohibit homosexuality, but is there anywhere that the Chantry _permits_ homosexuality?  If neither policy is stated, it can NOT be safely concluded that the Chantry is pro or con on the subject.  It's something that just has not been defined.  Deliberately, I believe.  If BioWare had declared one way or another on the subject, it would have alienated either homophobic customers if the Chantry boldly states, "We're fine with it" or homosexual customers that take umbrage at their chosen lifestyle being condemned.  To a business, it's better to say _nothing_ than it is to take sides when such a decision WILL reduce Sales.

 

All this aside, the whole purpose of replaying DAO and DA2 proved to be a waste now that it has become impossible for me to log in to the Origin servers when starting DAI.  If I want to play the game, I MUST use the Default World Setting.  So Romance in the Default is, I believe, no love life for the hero, and this whole discussion is moot.  Still, I just feel it would have been nice if BioWare had included some choices that weren't hopelessly emotionally and/or mentally scarred.

 

If every book/TV show/video game writer wrote a fantasy setting that is always precisely mimicking the dark ages, it would get boring and repetetive, wouldn't it?

 

And regarding the romances themselves, I think they are done realistically.It is unlikely that a traveler in such a dark, unpredictable world could find a perfect person with whom they will spend their entire happy little lives living happily together forever and ever.People are complex, often damaged, flawed, and sometimes circumstances don't allow people to stay together.

 

I am still unaware why so many people are inclined to b*tch about how only exclusively straight males are getting neglected in a video game, even if they themselves know they have just the same, if not more, options and (non)quality than everyone else.But, as you said, you have acknowledged everyone has "stormy" LI options in DA2, yet the title still bugs me.