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Romance sucks for straight males


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#76
CaptainPatch

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A) I've already said that I think that not addressing an issue is sufficient evidence that the institution has no opinion, and therefore doesn't care.  If the Chantry felt that homosexuality was counter to its principles, there would be a prohibition.  You yourself said that it fits the model of "thou shalts/thou shalt nots."  If we are to go with your logic, does it not stand to reason that not even mentioning something can be construed as being okay with it?  I fail to see the logic that suggests that "thou shalt engage in homosexuality" must be in place in the absence of "thou shalt not engage in homosexuality,"  in order for the Chantry to be said to not have an issue with it.  The lack of a prohibition can be reasonably said to be a tacit admission of acceptance.  If nothing else, it proclaims that the issue is not one which the Chantry feels is worth codifying, which, as I said before, sufficiently proclaims that homosexuality is not viewed by the church as being antithetical to its doctrinal theology.  If it were, then there would be a "thou shalt not" prohibition.

Your assertions about the Chantry not having a position on gender superiority is inherently flawed for the same reason.  Just because real world religions do, and just because the Chantry is analogous to one of them, doesn't mean it follows that the Chantry would have or should have followed the same pattern--especially since, unless I am mistaken, the question of gender superiority is not always initially a fundamental characteristic of a religion*.  That said, it is actually the case that the Chantry favors women over men.  i don't have the lore available to me off hand, but I've seen it before, that there are hints that because Andraste was a woman, and because her betrayer was a man, that there is an inherent, albeit understated, assumption of female superiority.  It is, again, very subtle.  The most obvious implication is the matriarchal hierarchy of the Chantry, but even without that, the theology lends itself well to such a belief, and with it, that belief is definitely reinforced.  

 

....

B )  On that last point:  I strongly object to your assertion that the matriarchal structure of the Chantry was a marketing decision intended not to alienate Bioware's women fanbase.  If you're going to make such a claim, you might as well say that the entire damned story was written with that marketing decision in mind.  You're taking your assumptions about the Chantry being analogous to a real world religion to an unreasonable degree at that point, because you are essentially claiming that because of your presumption that it does, or should, follow the same real world pattern in exactitude as a result, that every point on which it does not must perforce be purely the result of marketing.  I reject that, and I resent it, too.  There is no question that Bioware has taken steps to be more inclusive in trying to expand its fanbase and not to irritate subsets of its existing one.   But it does not in the least follow that because of that, that is the reason why we have the story we do, with a Chantry written around a female god/prophet.  

Yet another well thought out counter argument.  It's actually a pleasure to read how you disagree with me!

 

In response to A:  I strongly disagree with your assertion of "The lack of a prohibition can be reasonably said to be a tacit admission of acceptance. "  The fact that ALL religions keep on piling on more "Thou shalts" and "Thou shalt nots" over the centuries reveals that subjects not previously stipulated are just subjects that they hadn't gotten around to formally pronouncing whether they _should_ be Does or Don'ts.  A close examination of practically every existing REAL religion shows that the religions' leaders feel obligated to pass judgement on pretty much EVERYTHING about how their adherents live their lives and worship the specific deity.  So just because there isn't an existing stricture does NOT equate that the Church is fine with it _or_ that the Church feels is so obvious a Do Not that it doesn't need to be formally stated... for now.  If it becomes a burgeoning problem to the Church's leaders, then they will issue a new Papal Bull or whatever.

 

In response to B :  I think you've misconstrued what I said.  I was actually striving to say that the Chantry is absolutely ambivalent in regards to gender superior in either direction.  The fact that the Divine is a woman is more a matter of tradition, the current Divine being an image of Andraste rather than a stipulation that women are superior to men in leadership roles.  Much like how the Dalai Lama and the Pope are always males.  (Well, except for Pope Joan maybe.  ;^)  The BioWare Marketing decision to present absolute gender equality is actually just the same Marketing decision that all other developers have adopted.  As the numbers of female gamers grew as the overall market grew, it became obvious that it was demeaning to that significant market share by offering only male main characters or to suggest that female characters are inferior because they are "the weaker sex".  Initially, gender balancing amongst developers _did_ have female characters did automatically have lower Strength, but were compensated with higher Dexterity.  That quickly switched to absolutely no Attribute differentiation because many consumers perceived an inherent bias because in their opinions, one Attribute was more useful than another.  It became necessary to make the two genders absolutely equal, at least during the character creation phase.  So, ultimately a Marketing decision rather than any kind of mirror of historical Reality.

 

All ^^that said, my contention is that to make any religion appear fully realistic, it would behoove designers to look at common themes that appear in very nearly every historical religion.  Two subjects in particular are homosexuality which nearly every religion outright condemns (until recently) or at a minimum frowns upon.  The other is the subject of gender superiority, the large majority of religions specifying that men should be dominant.  These items of dogma weren't so much handed down by God as they are actually a reflection of outstanding societal mores.  And pretty much every historical religion have weighed in on these subjects, so their conspicuous absence in Chantry lore effectively makes the Chantry look more UNrealistic.  Which even though this pointedly a Fantasy game, there is a desire to make it look fully plausible in it's development and execution.  That is, a world much like our own, but wherein magic works.  Of course, BioWare has its hands tied because to include those more realistic elements means risking alienating a significant percentage of consumers.  So, ultimately the reason that the Chantry does NOT directly address those issues is because of a Marketing decision. 


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#77
Jeremiah12LGeek

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*snip*  

 

Uh, what they said. I echo it.



#78
Jeremiah12LGeek

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Ooh, I think I'll stop reading, now.

 

I'm pretty sure I already got the good bits, anyway.



#79
Silfren

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CaptainPatch,

 

As much as I'm enjoying this, I think it's probably time we took it to PMs, lol.  Even though it is your own OP, the mods tend to get unhappy when we go off-topic, and also when we delve too deeply into real-world stuff.  I'm not sure we're doing that latter bit overmuch, aside from the necessary correlations, but just to be safe, I'm replying to your latest post with a PM.



#80
Guest_CCVII_*

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OP you could always go bi.


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#81
Awills

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OP you think the romance sucks for Males in DA2? You don't know how good you got in DA2. I am talking from someone who has seen the straight male options for Dragonage Inquisition. I am afraid to tell you it gets worse and not better if you were hoping for an improvement in that game.

 

You are also lucky over here on the DA2 forums that you can post a thread on 'Romance Sucks for Straight Males.'  The bias over on the DAI forum is so strong that if you are a straight male and even mention 'Romance Sucks for Straight Males' You quickly get shot down and then set on fire and watched as you burn up into a smoking pile of ash and of course the thread would soon get locked.

 

I hope this helps so that you can be satisfied with the good that you got in this game in regard to romance.



#82
CaptainPatch

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OP you think the romance sucks for Males in DA2? You don't know how good you got in DA2. I am talking from someone who has seen the straight male options for Dragonage Inquisition. I am afraid to tell you it gets worse and not better if you were hoping for an improvement in that game.

 

You are also lucky over here on the DA2 forums that you can post a thread on 'Romance Sucks for Straight Males.'  The bias over on the DAI forum is so strong that if you are a straight male and even mention 'Romance Sucks for Straight Males' You quickly get shot down and then set on fire and watched as you burn up into a smoking pile of ash and of course the thread would soon get locked.

 

I hope this helps so that you can be satisfied with the good that you got in this game in regard to romance.

This is, after all, the "new-and-improved" BioWare Social Network.  Back during the original DA2 release, anyone that would dare to complain about anything derogatory to a BioWare product got shouted down and run off by the fanboys.  That's why after doing my due diligence and registering my BioWare games, I abandoned that forum.  I can only stomach so much of "My natio-- game company, right or wrong!"  Fortunately, being fanboys, they tend to congreagate on the hot new game release.  Still, a couple have even popped down here to do their fanboy thing.



#83
Guest_wildernesscry15_*

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My femshep (sorry...oops) FemHawke :) just remained single through the whole thing. It wasn't so bad..being a "single" champion of Kirkwall considering everything that had happened to her. Plus there were no real romanceable options IMO to pursue.

 

Mmmm...Maybe the Arishock...LOL j/k.



#84
Natureguy85

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This is, after all, the "new-and-improved" BioWare Social Network.  Back during the original DA2 release, anyone that would dare to complain about anything derogatory to a BioWare product got shouted down and run off by the fanboys.  That's why after doing my due diligence and registering my BioWare games, I abandoned that forum.  I can only stomach so much of "My natio-- game company, right or wrong!"  Fortunately, being fanboys, they tend to congreagate on the hot new game release.  Still, a couple have even popped down here to do their fanboy thing.

 

No, it's still like this.



#85
SSV Enterprise

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Just look at who the Romance choices are: A gloom-and-doom Anders that is literally possessed by his personal demon.  An inept Merrill that is absolutely convinced  that "I can handle this", despite a long history of failure and mortal consequences to questionable endeavors, resulting in her becoming a social outcast.  A sociopathic Isabella who doesn't care what consequences occur, just so long as she gets what she wants.  A bigoted escaped elf slave named Fenris that wants all mages to be dead or Tranquilized.  (Yeah, my sister should be euthanized just to satisfy your world view, Fenris.)  And lastly choir boy Sebastian that despite his extreme religious devotion, has no problem with homosexual affairs.

 

With choices like this, I'm surprised that they didn't add a little incest with Bethany.  At least she's a nice person.  Certainly a lot more appealing than any of the other Romance candidates.

 

I do agree that the romance options kind of suck for straight male players, for the simple fact that I'm not attracted to either Isabella or Merrill.  I was attracted to Aveline, but I don't hate the game for making her friend zone you.  Sometimes that happens in life, and isn't part of the point of character interactions in Dragon Age to simulate relationships in real life?  But I still wish they had a romance-able lady that I was attracted to; DA2 is the one BioWare game I've played where my male character ended up being celibate. Bethany is the sort of character I would be attracted to, but of course she was written as Hawke's sister so she couldn't be romanceable.  DAI is much better with Cassandra and Josephine.

 

Religious people in Dragon Age don't care about homosexual affairs because BioWare has created a fantasy world where there is no religious stigma towards homosexuality.  Sebastian himself is not a romance option for male Hawke though, he's straight.


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#86
Yulia

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I liked Isabella, I've always wanted to try Merril but have not yet. I disagree about Isabella however, talk to her and help her and eventually you sort of change her thoughts and she will lose some of that "attitude of being selfish" because she is actually in love "true love" for the first time with my femhawke. that's just my opinion. If anyone wants details i'll have to wait later when I have the time. I could go into a large story about Isabella and her personality.


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#87
Natureguy85

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I liked Isabella, I've always wanted to try Merril but have not yet. I disagree about Isabella however, talk to her and help her and eventually you sort of change her thoughts and she will lose some of that "attitude of being selfish" because she is actually in love "true love" for the first time with my femhawke. that's just my opinion. If anyone wants details i'll have to wait later when I have the time. I could go into a large story about Isabella and her personality.

 

Isabella's problem isn't being selfish. The whole reason she got into trouble was because she freed slaves that were her cargo. She looks out for Merrill and it doesn't take much to get her to come back with the Qunari book. But, as the OP said, she has a "consequences be damned" attitude, which is different. It's recklessness, really. Other issues are her sleeping with everything that moves and still being a thief, though YMMV on those, I suppose.

 

As far as a relationship goes, she tells Hawke he was right and that she was afraid of being loved... which isn't what Hawke said. Hawke said she was afraid of hurting someone. Maybe it's both, lol.


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#88
Silfren

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As far as a relationship goes, she tells Hawke he was right and that she was afraid of being loved... which isn't what Hawke said. Hawke said she was afraid of hurting someone. Maybe it's both, lol.

 

Not really a contradiction.  I always took that to mean that Isabela was saying she didn't want to be loved because she didn't want to commit, and therefore if someone actually fell in love with her, it meant she would hurt them by her unwillingness to be/give what that person needed.


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#89
Natureguy85

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Not really a contradiction.  I always took that to mean that Isabela was saying she didn't want to be loved because she didn't want to commit, and therefore if someone actually fell in love with her, it meant she would hurt them by her unwillingness to be/give what that person needed.

 

They are not contradicting, but they are not the same thing. It was just poorly written dialogue, really.



#90
Silfren

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They are not contradicting, but they are not the same thing. It was just poorly written dialogue, really.

 

Well yeah, that's a given.  Probably a disconnect between scenes written at different stages that didn't account for any shifts in story.



#91
k1rage

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If you dont think Isabella is hot I question if you actually are a straight male lol



#92
Cell1e

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Oh yeah, romances in this game definitely hit the bottom of the barrel for Bioware standards anyway.

 

I just love romances but I have to say not only are the characters really quite psychotic in DA2 but the romance scenes are very few and far between. DAO and DAI have done much better jobs with romances. I love the romance scenes you get with Cullen in Inquisition.

 

But in DA2 you have the mirror of transformation! I LOVE that! The mirror makes me want to forgive them for EVERYTHING!!

 

I love my mirror. :wub:



#93
Teligth

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Just look at who the Romance choices are: A gloom-and-doom Anders that is literally possessed by his personal demon.  An inept Merrill that is absolutely convinced  that "I can handle this", despite a long history of failure and mortal consequences to questionable endeavors, resulting in her becoming a social outcast.  A sociopathic Isabella who doesn't care what consequences occur, just so long as she gets what she wants.  A bigoted escaped elf slave named Fenris that wants all mages to be dead or Tranquilized.  (Yeah, my sister should be euthanized just to satisfy your world view, Fenris.)  And lastly choir boy Sebastian that despite his extreme religious devotion, has no problem with homosexual affairs.

 

With choices like this, I'm surprised that they didn't add a little incest with Bethany.  At least she's a nice person.  Certainly a lot more appealing than any of the other Romance candidates.

My problem is that everyone is romanceable, Sebastian aside. Romance sucks for straight males in DAI, not DA2. 


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#94
Sifr

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If it helps, the Dog loves you no matter what?

 

(Unless you don't have the Black Emporium DLC, that is?)

 

:lol: :P



#95
Mocksie

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Males still have more variety for straight options I'd say.

 

You get the choice between a more innocent, sweet, and cute option or an experienced, strong, and sexy option. I'd still consider them better than the straight female options.

 

The straight female choices, barring Sebastion who hardly counts as a real romance option are basically the same with opposing values. They are both angsty, broody, and short-tempered people who both glow blue when they get angry and have strong opinions one way or the other (pro mage or pro templar).

 

Or, you could go into a chaste marriage with Sebastion, but who wants that? 

 

I would have killed for a real straight female romance option that wasn't a severely opinionated person with anger management issues. I would have been okay with a male version of Isabela. 

 

But I'll admit, the straight male romances aren't a ton better. When it comes down to it, you still only have the choice between an ignorant blood mage or a slutty pirate with commitment issues. 

 

Definitely the worst DA game so far as far as romances go.


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#96
Natureguy85

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My problem is that everyone is romanceable, Sebastian aside. Romance sucks for straight males in DAI, not DA2. 

 

Actually it's Aveline who isn't romancable. Is Varric? Anyway, Sebastian is romancable, but won't sleep with you.



#97
Jeremiah12LGeek

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If the player is so shallow that just hopping in the sack is all they are looking for, "Romance" in DA2 is fine.  But if one's idea of Romance is to have a meaningful relationship to go along with the physicality, then forget it.  BioWare seems to be endorsing the moral ethics of a simplistic Hook Up society.  As in, "What does Love have to do with anything?"

 

If you're looking for meaningful romance in a video game, you have far bigger problems than any forum can address.



#98
Reguire

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You know, romance for straight males always had 2 options. Morrigan and Leliana, Isabela and Merrill, Josephine and Cassandra. If it sucks, it sucks in every DA game. 


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#99
Natureguy85

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You know, romance for straight males always had 2 options. Morrigan and Leliana, Isabela and Merrill, Josephine and Cassandra. If it sucks, it sucks in every DA game. 

 

I think the complaint, at least here, is more about who the options are than the number.



#100
Kantr

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It's not a Dating simulator. If you want better romances and more options. Play one of those.


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