228 réponses à ce sujet

[Mimilette]

That's a fine self righteous logic, Anders must be proud of you because I'll fight for mages freedom, but **** the Chantry, **** the Templars and **** the mundane right? Murdering innocent people who reside in the Chantry directly, and indirectly murdering thousands to serve your own agenda is not considered terrorism?

 

I don't disagree with you, but then, directly killing people (starting a war) to serve your own agenda (vengeance) should be considered what?

 

Sebastian distinguishes himself by having other people doing the dirty work when he can keep clean in his white armor, telling others how the Maker is merciful, but god forbids he actually follows that ideal. Despite his professed respect for Elthina, he had no problem going against her wishes and forsaking his chantry vows to pay someone to kill the mercenaries that killed his family, just to wallow in self-doubt afterwards, completely ignoring his country which he was supposed to take care of.

Another outstanding example of courage of convictions is that conversation he has with Fenris, where he tries to convince him to turn in Anders and Merril to the Templars, only to back off when Fenris tells him that if he wants to do it, he will have to do it alone.

Let's not forget that if you friendship romance him, he was supposed to take vows again, just to forget about those as easily as the first time.

 

I could understand his angry outburst after the bombing, because who wouldn't be upset? But he had several years to calm down, and he didn't. I don't see how invading Kirkwall is going to make him any closer to catch Anders.

 

At the end of the day, he's just as big on double standards as Anders is.

[Malthier]

kirkwall is a magisters playhouse gone wrong

 

let the damn place burn

[Chernaya]

I was pretty disappointed in Sebastian. With his selfish need for revenge, he became just as bloodthirsty as Anders and didn't even need to be corrupted by a demon. An ironic but sad fate. He'll only try to purge Kirkwall if Anders is left alive so it's clearly nothing but a selfish and childish act. :/

[Master Warder Z_]

Sebastian is a toxic zealot and his "aid" simple ideological poison.

To you anyway.

[Lucky Thirteen]

You know what's bizarre. The fact if you do kill Anders, Sebastian has no interest in fixing Kirkwall.  

 

Isn't Kirkwall still pretty equally messed up whether Anders dies or not? 

 

If he only goes after Kirkwall because he is angry Hawke leaves Anders alive, and both of them are no longer in Kirkwall....

 

It's like Sebastian's is attempting to out do and fix things Hawke can't fix, but only if he and Hawke are no longer friends. If they are still friends, then Sebastian has no interest in trying to fix things Hawke can't fix. Not even just help.

[KaiserShep]

Kirkwall is a craphole, but if I had to choose between defending the craphole from Sebastian's rage or supporting the self-righteous warmonger, I'd always go for the former.

[Former_Fiend]

You know what's bizarre. The fact if you do kill Anders, Sebastian has no interest in fixing Kirkwall.  

 

Isn't Kirkwall still pretty equally messed up whether Anders dies or not? 

 

If he only goes after Kirkwall because he is angry Hawke leaves Anders alive, and both of them are no longer in Kirkwall....

 

It's like Sebastian's is attempting to out do and fix things Hawke can't fix, but only if he and Hawke are no longer friends. If they are still friends, then Sebastian has no interest in trying to fix things Hawke can't fix. Not even just help.

 

You sure? Doing "An Ally in Starkhaven" should unlock "Aiding Kirkwall" after Wicked Hearts and Wicked Eyes if Anders is dead. 

[TEWR]

It is a tough decision, I'll admit. On the one hand, Sebastian has become the very thing he condemned himself for. A man who wanted power and is willing to wage war on an entire city because Anders was spared (which I personally see as a dumb move. Agreeing with him's one thing but letting him live is just waiting for political hell to follow) to find any of his associates, knowing full well (at least from what I gather, as my world-state had Anders as dead as a doornail) that Anders isn't there.

 

And I fear just what Sebastian might become in his pursuit of associates of Anders. Oh, undoubtedly Anders had associates, though not in the bombing itself. But I fear that he'd become the very thing Kirkwall had enough of -- a tyrant who persecutes the masses with their forces in a nominally noble ideal to keep order, where even the innocents are condemned to death. Meredith had her Templar Ser Mettin do that and he went and said he'd kill a woman for sheltering her cousin IIRC and feeding him (he was tortured in fact). Ser Mettin advocates the same thing in his Templar supportive quest.

 

Granted aiding an apostate isn't exactly legal, but it's not "death worthy" either.

 

But I also agree that Aveline has had 10 years to help restore order and she has failed. Badly, at that. Ten bloody years but she is actually IMO incompetent in some regards as a Guard-Captain. Certainly the best thing the city's had for it, at least if you factor in just Jeven and not the dude in the prologue (who seemed capable enough to me in the role). But that's not a hard bar to surpass, really. Granted there's only so much you can do in a city like Kirkwall, where the Veil is astronomically thin, but even so.

 

I question actually what Bran's policies as Viscount are. He seems astute enough of Kirkwall's political climate, if miserable at the best of times.

 

Frankly there's a lot that needs to be done for Kirkwall but I doubt either Aveline or Sebastian can pull it off. Sebastian is emotional and consumed by it all, which is dangerous, while Aveline has had time and failed.

[TEWR]

You know what's bizarre. The fact if you do kill Anders, Sebastian has no interest in fixing Kirkwall.  

 

Isn't Kirkwall still pretty equally messed up whether Anders dies or not? 

 

If he only goes after Kirkwall because he is angry Hawke leaves Anders alive, and both of them are no longer in Kirkwall....

 

It's like Sebastian's is attempting to out do and fix things Hawke can't fix, but only if he and Hawke are no longer friends. If they are still friends, then Sebastian has no interest in trying to fix things Hawke can't fix. Not even just help.

 

No, he does. You should get the Aiding Kirkwall mission where you can either ignore Sebastian's attempts to help the city rebuild through Leliana, have Cullen try and remove red lyrium with his people, or have Josie appeal to the nobility for help in the effort as it's a sign of all that's happened.

[Reznore57]

I spared Anders , so I wasn't really happy with the result.

 

I don't hate Sebastien but he's a real ass in this situation.

Kirkwall is going through a really tough time , the BOOM made a lot of damage , and there's problem with red lyrium growing (at least that's what I understood)+ the mage/templar war going on everywhere.

Aveline is just a guard(wo)man.

What is she supposed to do exactly?She has no mean to rebuild the city , nobody knows how to deal with red lyrium , the mage/templar stuff is mainly a chantry issue .Varric tells you she's the only person keeping the city from total destruction.So she's doing her job keeping peace in the streets.

 

Now on top of it , Sebastien wants to invade the city...to do what exactly?Strakhaven was going to hell , and for years he didn't lift a finger because dude had a crisis of faith.The Strakhaven circle was burnt down , adding pressure to the Kirkwall circle, and he did nothing.

And suddenly he wants to control two cities state?

And it's all because he is pissed off , if he gets his revenge , he will only offer support for Kirkwall .

 

Anyway as much as Sebastien pisses me off , I think I will knife Anders everytime now.

I feel sorry for Anders but if he lives lots of Kirkwall citizen will keep on suffering , he's not worth it.

[TEWR]

To be honest I personally can't reconcile Sebastian actually following through with the threat despite what the devs wanted. It doesn't fit his character IMO for him to act upon what he says in a fit of pique and throw basically everything Elthina ever taught him out the window, yet still act like she was this inspiration to him.

 

Sure, some people will act like that, but I can't say I ever saw Sebastian as one of them.

 

Though I suppose if Sebastian does decide to attack Kirkwall, Varric's whole "He's just so NICE" line goes out the window as well (and you'd think Varric would've seen a lot more in Seb then just "nice").

[Mimilette]

To be honest I personally can't reconcile Sebastian actually following through with the threat despite what the devs wanted. It doesn't fit his character IMO for him to act upon what he says in a fit of pique and throw basically everything Elthina ever taught him out the window, yet still act like she was this inspiration to him.

 

Sure, some people will act like that, but I can't say I ever saw Sebastian as one of them.

 

That's exactly what he did the first time you meet him though. Completely ignoring Elthina, forsaking his vows to get back at the mercenaries who killed his family (they were just pawns, not even the "real" culprits).

I didn't think he would go through his threat either to be honest, but I guess Sebastian is only capable of preaching forgiveness, not practicing it. There's that dialogue with Varric where he tells him "You must forgive your brother. When you hold onto anger, it colors everything you do." Talk about hypocrisy. He doesn't even have the possession excuse.

[TEWR]

That's exactly what he did the first time you meet him though. Completely ignoring Elthina, forsaking his vows to get back at the mercenaries who killed his family (they were just pawns, not even the "real" culprits).

I didn't think he would go through his threat either to be honest, but I guess Sebastian is only capable of preaching forgiveness, not practicing it. There's that dialogue with Varric where he tells him "You must forgive your brother. When you hold onto anger, it colors everything you do." Talk about hypocrisy. He doesn't even have the possession excuse.

 

Fair point, though it should be noted that they were still working for the Harimanns, weren't they? If they were, I'd say that's fair game. They're still aligned with his enemies, or at least some were. One is noted to have sought information down on the Docks, so those guys could've wanted to bugger the hell out of Kirkwall.

[HK-90210]

My guess is that no matter what happens, Sebastian WILL end up taking over Kirkwall, regardless of the actions of Hawke or the Inquisitor. It's a city in desperate need of strong, non-Chantry leadership. And yes, no matter what you think of Sebastian, he is not a part of the Chantry anymore. Not after Anders killed Elthina and destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry.

 

I think Sebastian could strike a very good balance of good-willed charity in rebuilding as well as strong leadership. Even if Hawke spared Anders, Sebastian did not lose his charitable nature. He just isn't going to show any to Hawke, nor the established leadership of Kirkwall, who let the city rot and waste away under despotic Templars and rampant blood-magic.

 

Just the way I can see the devs going. Ties up loose ends, lets the story continue without too many deviations. It works.

[Kinsz]

Mimimalize?  He caused a gorram Qunari invasion, one of his companions blew up half the city, started a war that has killed Maker knows how many people, and thats not event he worst thing he did

 

https://www.youtube....detailpage#t=35

Nope he didnt cause the Qunari invasion , Anders blowing up the Chantry isnt his fault and no he didnt start the war, dont let your bias blind you friend.

Did he prevent it all from happening? nope. Could he have prevented it?  again nope, put anyone in Hawke's shoes, be it the Warden or the Inquisitor , the result would have been the same because well thats how Bioware decided the story was going to go hence the removal of all sensible choices out of the player's hands.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You know what's bizarre. The fact if you do kill Anders, Sebastian has no interest in fixing Kirkwall.  

 

Isn't Kirkwall still pretty equally messed up whether Anders dies or not? 

 

If he only goes after Kirkwall because he is angry Hawke leaves Anders alive, and both of them are no longer in Kirkwall....

 

It's like Sebastian's is attempting to out do and fix things Hawke can't fix, but only if he and Hawke are no longer friends. If they are still friends, then Sebastian has no interest in trying to fix things Hawke can't fix. Not even just help.

As i said it isn't about fixing kirkwall it is pretty much obvious it is about childish and misplaced revenge he can't get anders so he want get kirkwall pretty much what he says he will do at the end of da 2 if you won't kill anders and what he does in dai.

 

 

My guess is that no matter what happens, Sebastian WILL end up taking over Kirkwall, regardless of the actions of Hawke or the Inquisitor. It's a cirty in desperate need of strong, non-Chantry leadership. And yes, no matter what you think of Sebastian, he is not a part of the Chantry anymore. Not after Anders killed Elthina and destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry.

 

I think Sebastian could strike a very good balance of good-willed charity in rebuilding as well as strong leadership. Even if Hawke sparred Anders, Sebastian did not lose his charitable nature. He just isn't going to show any to Hawke, nor the established leadership of Kirkwall, who let the city rot and waste away under despotic Templars and rampant blood-magic.

 

Just the way I can see the devs going. Ties up loose ends, lets the story continue without too many deviations. It works.

You mean mandchild that have anger issuess and if he can't get what he want he threatens to bring his revenge on uninvolved peoples is strong leader?

[Dean_the_Young]

Or maybe he approves because you helped out his friend fight off an hostile force. Either way, Sebastian is the Alistair of DA2. Immature and throwns temper tautrums when things don't go his way. But unlike Alistair, you can't talk Sebastian down, and the brat will certanly not have his way if it depends on me.

 

Huh?

 

Sure you can. Aside from the obvious solution to that gordian knot (killing a mass murderer), you can also arrange things so that Sebastian doesn't invade.

[Nefla]

There's no way I'd ever choose Anders over Sebastian so I'll never get this wartable mission lol.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

There's no way I'd ever choose Anders over Sebastian so I'll never get this wartable mission lol.

As others in this topic has pointed out both are equally horrible person. I don't even like Sebastian, but some people judging Sebastian and cutting Anders some slack after what he's done. That's a double standard. :/

 

There is no way I let Anders walk away after he destroy the only chance for compromise, murdering who know how many that reside in the Chantry and brought this fate upon every mages in Kirkwall. He's gone too far and his crime is too great. Well, at least I don't have to worry about Seb invading Kirkwall in my main play-through.

[LobselVith8]

It is a tough decision, I'll admit. On the one hand, Sebastian has become the very thing he condemned himself for. A man who wanted power and is willing to wage war on an entire city because Anders was spared (which I personally see as a dumb move. Agreeing with him's one thing but letting him live is just waiting for political hell to follow) to find any of his associates, knowing full well (at least from what I gather, as my world-state had Anders as dead as a doornail) that Anders isn't there.

 

In regards to sparing Anders, I think "political hell" comes with the package if Hawke has decided to oppose Meredith - Kirkwall is supposed to be the center of templar power over eastern Thedas, and the Champion just decided to oppose the Templar Order and take the unprecedented move of stopping the Right of Annulment, which involves killing members of the Chantry's militant arm.

 

If Anders was spared, I think the best place for him would be the kingdom of Rivain - the seers have traditions dating back over a millennia, and based on Cole's quest, they have experience in helping spirits.

 

Frankly, I think Cullen is the only reason Aveline, Varric, Fenris (if he's still in the area, since he's hunting down Tevinter agents trying to use the situation to enslave people), and possibly Merrill (depending on where she's taking the elves left homeless in the wake of the war) aren't hunted down or pursued while in Kirkwall (although I wouldn't be surprised if Cassandra interrogated them as well).

 

Given what Varric said (in discussing how Anders departed with the Circle mages for a while, until he left because most of them blamed him for their situation), I'm wondering who Sebastian thinks can help him find Anders. I doubt Sebastian would assume that Fenris would know given how hostile things were between the two of them (although perhaps he may try to recruit him, since he did previously offer him a position as a military leader), Merrill and Anders didn't get along (in fact, Sebastian got along better with Merrill than either one did with Anders), Aveline and Anders argued quite a bit, and Varric isn't even in Kirkwall at the time.

 

Frankly there's a lot that needs to be done for Kirkwall but I doubt either Aveline or Sebastian can pull it off. Sebastian is emotional and consumed by it all, which is dangerous, while Aveline has had time and failed.

 

Well, it's a Tevinter Hellmouth, was implied to be adversely effected by Corypheus while he slumbered for centuries, and is basically the Thedas equivalent of Gotham City. It'll be difficult for anyone to save this city-state.

[macready1988]

Sebastian was a two faced jackass and his "reasons" for invading kirkwall posited at the end of DA2 were pouty, childish garbage.

"That man killed Elthina! Kill him or I invade Kirkwall!"

Kirkwall might be a corrupted cesspit but its restoration or destruction have nothing to do with that chantry fop who has backtracked on his own decisions time and again.

Personally Id have had Hawke happily slit his throat on the spot for daring to treat him as his personal dog executioner. And then handed Anders over to Aveline to face justice.

As it turned out all I could do was release Anders so as to avoid doing Sebastians wishes.

I hope Sebastians head ends up on a pike outside the ruins of the Kirkwall chantry.

[Hazegurl]

As others in this topic has pointed out both are equally horrible person. I don't even like Sebastian, but some people judging Sebastian and cutting Anders some slack after what he's done. That's a double standard. :/

I agree, they like Anders so him throwing a childish tantrum and blowing up half the place is okay, they hate Seb so him throwing a tantrum and invading is bad.  It's ridiculous that the same people who didn't care enough about Kirkwall's safety to see justice done to Anders suddenly care about the safety of Kirkwall with Seb.

 

Anyone who stills thinks Kirkwall shouldn't get burned down and that Aveline isn't incompetent should take a look at this:

Spoiler

How long has Aveline been sitting on the fact that red Lyrium is spreading out of control to the point of Quarantine measures needing to be taken? Work to fix up that dump only takes place when Sebastian does something.

[Sifr]

I agree, they like Anders so him throwing a childish tantrum and blowing up half the place is okay, they hate Seb so him throwing a tantrum and invading is bad.  It's ridiculous that the same people who didn't care enough about Kirkwall's safety to see justice done to Anders suddenly care about the safety of Kirkwall with Seb.

 

That's because Sebastian's letter explicilty states that he's invading the city simply because it once harboured Anders and those who kept him out of the Circle for nearly a decade. It doesn't matter to him that everyone single person he's blaming have long since left Kirkwall, he wants to raze the place to ground simply to spite them, which is the definition of petty revenge.

 

Anders at least acknowledged what he did was a terrible thing and was fully prepared to let Hawke execute him for his crimes. Sebastian is so self-righteous and blinded by revenge however, he doesn't even seem to acknowledge that he's lashing out against the denizens of a city who had nothing to do with the half-dozen or so people he's blaming for Elthina's death.

[Reznore57]

How long has Aveline been sitting on the fact that red Lyrium is spreading out of control to the point of Quarantine measures needing to be taken? Work to fix up that dump only takes place when Sebastian does something.

 

Errr...nobody knows how to get rid of red lyrium , even the Inquisition in Emprise Du Lion is having trouble with it .

Specialist are wondering what the hell they can do with the stuff.

It feeds on things.Even worms if I remember correctly.

 

So what is Aveline supposed to do?It grows on its own.

There's not even Circles/the Chantry anymore to study magical shenanigans.

[Mimilette]

Yes, what's with the "what is Aveline doing" thing? She's the captain of the guard, not the head of the city. It's the ruler who should be held accountable if the place isn't doing well. Or did I miss something? It's Bran who's ruling now, right? I don't even like her, but I'm sure the situation would be probably much worse if she wasn't there.

And I don't get the "if you spared Anders it means you agree with him" statement. I'm pretty sure plenty of people RP and have playthroughs where Anders is alive because it fit the story. I don't agree with what he did, and I still think Sebastian is a coward who didn't even have the guts to kill Anders himself when he had the chance. No, he has to have a whole army to do the job for him. And instead of spending his resources to actually look for him, he prefers to go invade his neighbor. A real class act.