228 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

The Free Marches are free cities and there was no threat to anyone from Kirkwall at that point, so yes I did boot Sebastian back to Starkhaven on my "spared Anders" run. My Hawke didn't agree with Anders, but saw no point in executing him after the damage was already done, and couldn't kill a friend. The argument that he had to die out of some sense of eye for an eye justice is the same argument Meredith makes for annulling the Circle to appease the populace over the Chantry. Safe to say I don't care much for that rationale, and even less for Sebastian's reasons for invading.

 

Sebastian would do well to mind his own city's affairs. He's not ruler material so Starkhaven will have its own problems.

[Ahalvern]

I agree, they like Anders so him throwing a childish tantrum and blowing up half the place is okay, they hate Seb so him throwing a tantrum and invading is bad.  It's ridiculous that the same people who didn't care enough about Kirkwall's safety to see justice done to Anders suddenly care about the safety of Kirkwall with Seb.

 

A person has to be a pretty despicable human being by all accounts for him to earn execution in my case. Anders doesn't resist, he knows his actions will most likely earn him a death by his "former" friends and he's okay with that. What does it do to kill him in this case? He's a mass murderer as well as a hero for setting forth the events that lead to mages' freedom (at least in my world in DA:I).

 

Also, he's saved a lot of lives in the filthiest corners of Kirkwall with his magic, when everyone was more than content to turn a blind eye to the refugees' plight. I don't get painting Anders with the "BAD" brush as if one's actions are made up by one "action". He's more complex than that.

 

I'm starting to hear " But, justiiice!!" from the back somewhere I think. Yeah, it is justice to answer death with more death. Does that bring back those who died? I'd rather keep the casualties to minimum except for the unnamed mooks we have to kill over and over in this game as part of the game mechanic.

[Ryriena]

Also gave Cullen that task loved sending Sebas back with his tail between his legs, was also verily petty of the character to cause more pain and also knowing damn well Anders wasn't even in the city at that time. I rather send him packing since they don't need more trouble and Anexing Kirkwall will bring them more trouble since I doubt this generation would allow somthing like this to happen.

[Newnation]

As others in this topic has pointed out both are equally horrible person. I don't even like Sebastian, but some people judging Sebastian and cutting Anders some slack after what he's done. That's a double standard. :/

 

There is no way I let Anders walk away after he destroy the only chance for compromise, murdering who know how many that reside in the Chantry and brought this fate upon every mages in Kirkwall. He's gone too far and his crime is too great. Well, at least I don't have to worry about Seb invading Kirkwall in my main play-through.

I'm not that big of fan of either but to say Anders destroyed the only chance for compromise is nuts. Elthina was going to do nothing because she pretty much believed in the status quo of her faith and that it couldn't change. She was very compassionate and kind, but she would have let everything continue going on.

I'm not saying I agree with Anders' actions but it took him blowing up the chantry and starting a rebellion to actually get the chantry to say maybe the old way doesn't work anymore.

 

I think the reason people are jumping on the screw Sebastian bandwagon is because he invades simply for Anders (If he's still alive) knowing he isn't in the city anymore, not to help Kirkwall. What makes it worse is he's targeting people who may have sheltered Anders meaning he doesn't have proof they did or did not.

[errantknight]

It's interesting how entirely differently many of us see the same events

[Hazegurl]

 

Anders at least acknowledged what he did was a terrible thing and was fully prepared to let Hawke execute him for his crimes. Sebastian is so self-righteous and blinded by revenge however, he doesn't even seem to acknowledge that he's lashing out against the denizens of a city who had nothing to do with the half-dozen or so people he's blaming for Elthina's death.

Both of them are petty. Anders acknowledges nothing, he says the words but they are hollow because at the end he believes that what he did was right. That's like asking someone to apologize for stealing from you, and they do, but then go on to state that they needed your money and at least they got to buy what they wanted with it.  That's not an acknowledgement of what they did wrong or how they hurt you.  He only wished to be executed to become a martyr.  Anders is also self righteous, thinks he knows what better for all mages, and is a narcissist who was blinded by revenge. 

 

Yes, what's with the "what is Aveline doing" thing? She's the captain of the guard, not the head of the city. It's the ruler who should be held accountable if the place isn't doing well. Or did I miss something? It's Bran who's ruling now, right? I don't even like her, but I'm sure the situation would be probably much worse if she wasn't there.

And I don't get the "if you spared Anders it means you agree with him" statement. I'm pretty sure plenty of people RP and have playthroughs where Anders is alive because it fit the story. I don't agree with what he did, and I still think Sebastian is a coward who didn't even have the guts to kill Anders himself when he had the chance. No, he has to have a whole army to do the job for him. And instead of spending his resources to actually look for him, he prefers to go invade his neighbor. A real class act.

Yet she sure acts like she is the head of the city by throwing herself and everyone else into a war with sebastian. If the captain of the guard is not the leader of Kirkwall then who is? Kirlwall is a city-state and have no Banns. The Viscount is in charge but is gone, the Knight Commander and the Templars are gone or turned to red Temps. Kirkwall is pretty much under the martial law of the city guard.  She is in charge.

 

I never said sparing anders meant agreeing with him. I acknowledge that some actually think that basketcase can learn something, good luck with that btw.  But don't get upset when your choice to let Anders go free actually come with some consequences.  Oh and I love the argument that Seb is a coward for not killing Anders. Like anyone would take the chance to kill him when he's:

 

a.  possessed by a crazy demon

b. being let go by a man or woman(Hawke) who has killed half of Kirkwall already, and surrounded by all Hawke's friendswho would most likely attack him if he tried.

 

Don't confuse intelligence with cowardice.

 

Now I do agree that he should have hired some people to aid him in searching for Anders over annexing the place...only problem is that he would have to go to Kirkwall anyway to begin the investigation. Otherwise it's just a blind search. And we all know how incompetent Aveline and the city guard is.

 

A person has to be a pretty despicable human being by all accounts for him to earn execution in my case. Anders doesn't resist, he knows his actions will most likely earn him a death by his "former" friends and he's okay with that. What does it do to kill him in this case? He's a mass murderer as well as a hero for setting forth the events that lead to mages' freedom (at least in my world in DA:I).

 

Also, he's saved a lot of lives in the filthiest corners of Kirkwall with his magic, when everyone was more than content to turn a blind eye to the refugees' plight. I don't get painting Anders with the "BAD" brush as if one's actions are made up by one "action". He's more complex than that.

 

I'm starting to hear " But, justiiice!!" from the back somewhere I think. Yeah, it is justice to answer death with more death. Does that bring back those who died? I'd rather keep the casualties to minimum except for the unnamed mooks we have to kill over and over in this game as part of the game mechanic.

 

Anders a hero? Okay.

 

And no he didn't set off the events, it was started when the mages discovered that tranquility can be reversed. If anything Anders created the most inopportune time for rebellion. Fiona was just too dumb to understand that.

 

Also, a real friend would put him out his misery. Anders was obviously a very sick person whose life ensured his own suffering as well as the future suffering of others.  But then again Anders was never my friend, just some dude who gave Hawke GW maps and became obsessed with him.  I loved my Hawke calling him crazy in DAI. That pretty much sums him up.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I'm not that big of fan of either but to say Anders destroyed the only chance for compromise is nuts. Elthina was going to do nothing because she pretty much believed in the status quo of her faith and that it couldn't change. She was very compassionate and kind, but she would have let everything continue going on.

I'm not saying I agree with Anders' actions but it took him blowing up the chantry and starting a rebellion to actually get the chantry to say maybe the old way doesn't work anymore.

 

I think the reason people are jumping on the screw Sebastian bandwagon is because he invades simply for Anders (If he's still alive) knowing he isn't in the city anymore, not to help Kirkwall. What makes it worse is he's targeting people who may have sheltered Anders meaning he doesn't have proof they did or did not.

Don't forget he is likely to kill people simply for helping Anders in his desire for vengeance. Take Lirenne, the Ferelden merchant who is trying to help fellow Ferelden refugees. Does she deserve to suffer simply by association with Anders? The fact that Prince douche is willing attack a city Anders used to live in rather than actually search for him just shows he is just an a-hole and was glad to kick out by helping Aveline.

[LaughingBanana]

Some of you folks I think are mistakenly conflating Sebastian's intention of "invading Kirkwall" as the same as "destroying Kirkwall" or "kill everyone in Kirkwall" or "make everyone's life in Kirkwall miserable."

 

I don't think he intend to reduce that city to ashes or even create more suffering for its citizens; merely saving/salvage what can be saved/salvaged and perhaps rebuild it into something better.

 

He's a totally hardcore Andrastian; it's not so unbelievable to think that he feels like he must do something to a city that jumpstart the entire mage-templar war as well as the fall of Chantry in Thedas.

[Mimilette]

Yet she sure acts like she is the head of the city by throwing herself and everyone else into a war with sebastian. If the captain of the guard is not the leader of Kirkwall then who is? Kirlwall is a city-state and have no Banns. The Viscount is in charge but is gone, the Knight Commander and the Templars are gone or turned to red Temps. Kirkwall is pretty much under the martial law of the city guard.  She is in charge.

 

I never said sparing anders meant agreeing with him. I acknowledge that some actually think that basketcase can learn something, good luck with that btw.  But don't get upset when your choice to let Anders go free actually come with some consequences.  Oh and I love the argument that Seb is a coward for not killing Anders. Like anyone would take the chance to kill him when he's:

 

a.  possessed by a crazy demon

b. being let go by a man or woman(Hawke) who has killed half of Kirkwall already, and surrounded by all Hawke's friendswho would most likely attack him if he tried.

 

Don't confuse intelligence with cowardice.

 

Now I do agree that he should have hired some people to aid him in searching for Anders over annexing the place...only problem is that he would have to go to Kirkwall anyway to begin the investigation. Otherwise it's just a blind search. And we all know how incompetent Aveline and the city guard is.

 

It's Bran if I'm not mistaken who is the temporary Viscount. So no, as far as I know, she is not in charge. And what in my posts gave you the impression I was upset? Disagreeing with someone doesn't upset me. I always enjoy a civil debate.

Aveline, I'm not sure I know how "incompetent" she is. It seems that the citizens of Kirkwall were liking their new city guard just fine. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

 

As for Sebastian, my problem is less that he doesn't kill Anders when he has the opportunity, and more that his first reaction is to tell Hawke to kill him, instead of at least trying something himself. The same way he wanted Fenris to turn over Anders and Merrill to the Templars instead of doing it. The same way he waited in Kirkwall that someone kills his family killers for him. I see a deplorable pattern here, that's all. So yes, I think he's a coward because he doesn't have the courage of his convictions when he doesn't have buddies to back him up.

Anders wasn't friend of your Hawke, but he was for many others. Not everyone is capable of killing a close friend, even a crazy one, in cold blood. Anyone with a shred of compassion would be upset by having to make that choice. Asking a friend to do that for you is despicable.

 

The man goes on and on about the sanctity of the Chantry and the Maker, but has no problem with breaking up to twice sacred vows. His word means nothing. It seems he only follows up on revenge vows.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Some of you folks I think are mistakenly conflating Sebastian's intention of "invading Kirkwall" as the same as "destroying Kirkwall" or "kill everyone in Kirkwall" or "make everyone's life in Kirkwall miserable."

 

I don't think he intend to reduce that city to ashes or even create more suffering for its citizens; merely saving/salvage what can be saved/salvaged and perhaps rebuild it into something better.

 

He's a totally hardcore Andrastian; it's not so unbelievable to think that he feels like he must do something to a city that jumpstart the entire mage-templar war as well as the fall of Chantry in Thedas.

Problem is that he only helps rebuild Kirkwall if Anders is dead. If he really did want to make Kirkwall pay, he wouldn't invaded regardless of whatever happened to Anders. This doesn't happen since the only reason that he invades Kirkwall is that he's still angry that Anders is alive and wants to take vengeance on anyone even remotely associated with Anders. Cullen's option outright says this about Sebastian's invasion. If Sebastian invades, he outright petitions the Inquisition to help him annex Kirkwall since people who helped Anders are still there and he wants to go after Anders. This clearly shows that he only cares about Anders, not about rebuilding Kirkwall or making the city pay.

[TEWR]

Yet she sure acts like she is the head of the city by throwing herself and everyone else into a war with sebastian. If the captain of the guard is not the leader of Kirkwall then who is? Kirlwall is a city-state and have no Banns. The Viscount is in charge but is gone, the Knight Commander and the Templars are gone or turned to red Temps. Kirkwall is pretty much under the martial law of the city guard.  She is in charge.

 

 

Bran is provisional Viscount but at this point in time, with the threat of war, the Guard-Captain has the authority to conscript from the populace. With the threat to the city -- and even before then -- she and he have the authority to do a lot, though obviously you have to account for the nobility -- whom, let's be honest, one has to expect to act like petulant children.

 

Aveline, I'm not sure I know how "incompetent" she is. It seems that the citizens of Kirkwall were liking their new city guard just fine. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

 

 

It's mostly in her attitude. From failing to secure a site where Demons popped up after someone was seen fleeing from the scene of the crime -- which Hawke can relay to Emeric -- to her lack of an investigation into the guardsmen accused of raping an Elf in the Alienage. She should take such things seriously, considering that they 1) reflect poorly on the Guard and 2) are a lingering part of the corruption the Guard had to face.

 

But then, what do the lives of Elves matter? No one gives them much thought. And indeed, much as she would deny it, she is technically corrupt. She has altered guard patrols to protect her friends, bent the law to get them out of jail, etc.

 

That's why I said that although she's probably one of the best Guard-Captains Kirkwall has had, that is not saying a whole lot.

 

 

As for Sebastian, my problem is less that he doesn't kill Anders when he has the opportunity, and more that his first reaction is to tell Hawke to kill him, instead of at least trying something himself. The same way he wanted Fenris to turn over Anders and Merrill to the Templars instead of doing it. The same way he waited in Kirkwall that someone kills his family killers for him. I see a deplorable pattern here, that's all. So yes, I think he's a coward because he doesn't have the courage of his convictions when he doesn't have buddies to back him up.

 

I agree with all except for the family killers one.

 

He's one man and you'd expect him to go up against an entire mercenary company on his own? That's not acting on convictions, that's suicidal idiocy. If what you're saying is he should've joined Hawke, I suppose I could agree.

 

Though Hawke would've first had to tell him. Sebastian didn't even think the bounty was left up there when we inform him of the deed.

 

and this next bit isn't necessarily directed at you, though it does work in conjunction with your post.

 

To be honest I don't care much for how Anders is executed in the main game, and it's one of the things I rewrite for my headcanon. He's turned over to the Guards of Kirkwall there and is given a full trial (for however much it's worth) wherein he pleads guilty and walks the gallows.... funnily enough, at the Gallows, before as many people as wished to attend.

[TEWR]

Problem is that he only helps rebuild Kirkwall if Anders is dead. If he really did want to make Kirkwall pay, he wouldn't invaded regardless of whatever happened to Anders. This doesn't happen since the only reason that he invades Kirkwall is that he's still angry that Anders is alive and wants to take vengeance on anyone even remotely associated with Anders. Cullen's option outright says this about Sebastian's invasion. If Sebastian invades, he outright petitions the Inquisition to help him annex Kirkwall since people who helped Anders are still there and he wants to go after Anders. This clearly shows that he only cares about Anders, not about rebuilding Kirkwall or making the city pay.

 

What exactly did Cullen's option say, pre-completion? Like the actual text? I realize you gave the gist which I won't argue but I'm curious as to his actual words

[thesuperdarkone2]

What exactly did Cullen's option say, pre-completion? Like the actual text? I realize you gave the gist which I won't argue but I'm curious as to his actual words

[Gambit458]

I think Sebastian is a fool and wish I could kill him the way Sera killed that noble on her quest. Sebastian seemed be one of those who acted like two wrongs made a right. How many times did Elfina, or w.e her name was, criticize him that his solutions to his problems weren't the right way to go? Sebastian didn't even want to go back to his people until they served him a purpose and that purpose being revenge. I just can't believe people are trying to rag on Hawke and accuse him of causing more problems. If you're going to rag on the main character for their faults, you know we can just go and rag on the Hero of Ferelden too right? Because your Grey Warden wasn't exactly squeaky clean either. For ex, you could defile Andraste's ashes or leave Redcliffe village to die. As for Anders, I view his actions as more of his bond with Justice over him just on his own. Anders was always pretty vocal about his view on mages in Awakening but in DA 2 he became far more fanatical after his bond with Justice. It corrupted him the same way that red lyrium corrupted Meredith. Just listening to Cullen lets you know how she felt about mages but that red lyrium made her even worse

[Master Warder Z_]

Ah Sebastian hate.

[Mimilette]

good points

 

The truth is, I kind of agree with you for Aveline. As I said, I didn't like her much in DA2. But I also acknowledge that she has to work in a cesspool.

It's just the "Aveline sucks, Sebastian is the solution" sort of argument (that I'm not sure you made yourself) that puzzles me. It's such a non sequitur. Even if she sucks, there's no guarantee he'll make it better and it sill is not a valid reason to invade a sovereign state. I'm not even sure it's possible for anyone to handle that place.

 

As for the family killers, what annoys me is that he doesn't join the first time. He just let a memo on a board, wait for it to happen and that's it. He's ready to sacrifice supposedly sacred vows (at least to him) to avenge his family, and he can't be bothered to look for capable mercenaries himself and help avenge his family with his own hands? It's the perpetual "I want people killed for me" attitude that I can't stand. You want to kill, do it yourself.

 

I just found him boring in DA2 but I really dislike him now. That being said, I'm also way more interested in his character now. I actually hope we'll see more of his story at some point, for better or worse.

[Hazegurl]

It's Bran if I'm not mistaken who is the temporary Viscount. So no, as far as I know, she is not in charge. And what in my posts gave you the impression I was upset? Disagreeing with someone doesn't upset me. I always enjoy a civil debate.

Aveline, I'm not sure I know how "incompetent" she is. It seems that the citizens of Kirkwall were liking their new city guard just fine. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

 

As for Sebastian, my problem is less that he doesn't kill Anders when he has the opportunity, and more that his first reaction is to tell Hawke to kill him, instead of at least trying something himself. The same way he wanted Fenris to turn over Anders and Merrill to the Templars instead of doing it. The same way he waited in Kirkwall that someone kills his family killers for him. I see a deplorable pattern here, that's all. So yes, I think he's a coward because he doesn't have the courage of his convictions when he doesn't have buddies to back him up.

Anders wasn't friend of your Hawke, but he was for many others. Not everyone is capable of killing a close friend, even a crazy one, in cold blood. Anyone with a shred of compassion would be upset by having to make that choice. Asking a friend to do that for you is despicable.

 

The man goes on and on about the sanctity of the Chantry and the Maker, but has no problem with breaking up to twice sacred vows. His word means nothing. It seems he only follows up on revenge vows.

Hm, this Bran person may only be in the Anders live world state, unless he became Viscount directly after my Hawke was chased out. Either way I stand corrected.

 

And no I was speaking in general about people getting their knickers twisted about Seb Annexing Kirkwall. Letting a murderer go free will have it's problems.

 

It would be completely insane for Seb to attack Anders after Hawke made it clear that he/she wants Anders alive. It would be crazy to do it beforehand without even knowing Hawke's intention. Hawke could be in a romance with Anders and defend him, Hawke could be Anders friend and defend him.  The only way Seb would know that he won't have like five or six people jumping on him is to see where Hawke's head is. And according to you (since Anders is your friend), you would most likely attack him if he tried so he's actually smart to say his peace and leave.

 

I do agree that he should have just turned Anders in. I actually wish I had the option to say "do it." but alas he doesn't. I will call that a punk move. But once again, he'll be living in a city with a group of people who would possibly want him dead afterwards so I'm not seeing anything Seb could have done that would have been the smart way to turn Anders and/or Merrill in. Short  of leaving Kirkwall right after.

 

As for his family's killers, it was already pointed out that Hawke simply took the job without telling him.

[Hazegurl]

Ah Sebastian hate.

Apparently you gotta blow up kids and old ladies to get some love on the BSN.

[Master Warder Z_]

Apparently you gotta blow up kids and old ladies to get some love on the BSN.

A lot of the old mage freedom movement are that type.

[BHRamsay]

Plot also demands that some sense of resolution be given, but now at the end of DA2 Hawke has fled, sh*t has firmly hit the fan and the world order has been thrown into chaos
 
Hawke utterly failed in everything he attmepted, beyond trying to get into pants I suppose.  he tried to keep the peace with Qunari and Kirkwall, failed, he tried to protect his family, failed, he tried to keep templars and mages from coming to open war, absolutely failed

at least s/he tried to do something which is more than anyone else was doing

[Lulupab]

@ Hazegul and others

 

You're asking questions that have no answers, only opinions. Tell me, is it worth it for millions to die in order to remove a single dictator from power? Because that is pretty much the majority of our revolutions. 

 

With that said, in all endings of DA:I Templars either get disbanded or get reforms. You cannot go back to the old order because it was incompetent and corrupt. At the same time in all endings mages get better lives, whether inside or outside the circles. Ironically Vivienne does what Fiona wanted with her initial vote before the college was disbanded. She didn't want to remove circles, she wanted mages to have better lives inside the circles without anyone meddling in their affairs. So you cannot bring the old circles back, it didn't work and it had to go.

 

My point is, what Anders did bore fruit, the Templars have less power and mages have better lives in either cases. Violent, murderous revolutionaries play JUST as much a role in bringing about positive changes to injustice as anyone else. Whether you like it or not, that's a fact of history

[TEWR]

The truth is, I kind of agree with you for Aveline. As I said, I didn't like her much in DA2. But I also acknowledge that she has to work in a cesspool.

It's just the "Aveline sucks, Sebastian is the solution" sort of argument (that I'm not sure you made yourself) that puzzles me. It's such a non sequitur. Even if she sucks, there's no guarantee he'll make it better and it sill is not a valid reason to invade a sovereign state. I'm not even sure it's possible for anyone to handle that place.

 

As for the family killers, what annoys me is that he doesn't join the first time. He just let a memo on a board, wait for it to happen and that's it. He's ready to sacrifice supposedly sacred vows (at least to him) to avenge his family, and he can't be bothered to look for capable mercenaries himself and help avenge his family with his own hands? It's the perpetual "I want people killed for me" attitude that I can't stand. You want to kill, do it yourself.

 

I just found him boring in DA2 but I really dislike him now. That being said, I'm also way more interested in his character now. I actually hope we'll see more of his story at some point, for better or worse.

 

My argument essentially boiled down to "Anders sucks, Aveline sucks, Sebastian sucks. And this whole choice is difficult as a result because of their suckiness". I agree that Sebastian taking over has no guarantee of making things better (I happen to think it'll make things worse, for a slew of reasons -- some already stated on the previous page) nor does keeping Kirkwall free from Starkhaven necessarily mean things will improve.

 

He can't really look for capable mercenaries because he doesn't really have that much coin to use to hire any. He gives you... what... six sovereigns for wiping out the Flint Company? That may seem like a lot but I'm willing to bet mercenaries cost more then that.

 

My personal opinion of Sebastian as a ruler though is that while I do not think he is the most qualified to rule, he needs to take over because his distant cousin Goran Vael is just a puppet. He can make an average ruler, provided Anders is dead. If Anders is alive, he's on a slippery slope to becoming a tyrant.

[errantknight]

@ Hazegul and others

 

You're asking questions that have no answers, only opinions. Tell me, is it worth it for millions to die in order to remove a single dictator from power? Because that is pretty much the majority of our revolutions. 

 

With that said, in all endings of DA:I Templars either get disbanded or get reforms. You cannot go back to the old order because it was incompetent and corrupt. At the same time in all endings mages get better lives, whether inside or outside the circles. Ironically Vivienne does what Fiona wanted with her initial vote before the college was disbanded. She didn't want to remove circles, she wanted mages to have better lives inside the circles without anyone meddling in their affairs. So you cannot bring the old circles back, it didn't work and it had to go.

 

My point is, what Anders did bore fruit, the Templars have less power and mages have better lives in either cases. Violent, murderous revolutionaries play JUST as much a role in bringing about positive changes to injustice as anyone else. Whether you like it or not, that's a fact of history

Bold type or not, that isn't a fact. It's an opinion, a dubious one, and one for which you provide no actual evidence.  The majority of revolutions do not, in fact, kill millions, for god sake, lol. Some change is even relatively peaceful. Saying that change requires a nut job with a bomb and that  it's equal to a rational effort for peaceful change or organized resistance is just not right. If your revolution kills milllions, you're doing it wrong. Violent, murderous revolutionaries don't create freedom, they create violence and murder. Sometimes smarter people just happen to be around to pick up the pieces. Other times...unending war where no one wins. Mostly totalitarian groups take over. When you create anarchy, it isn't the sensible, moderate people who are poised to create 'peace'. It's the people with power and weapons lurking in the background and waiting to make a play for control.

[Hazegurl]

@ Hazegul and others

 

You're asking questions that have no answers, only opinions. Tell me, is it worth it for millions to die in order to remove a single dictator from power? Because that is pretty much the majority of our revolutions. 

 

With that said, in all endings of DA:I Templars either get disbanded or get reforms. You cannot go back to the old order because it was incompetent and corrupt. At the same time in all endings mages get better lives, whether inside or outside the circles. Ironically Vivienne does what Fiona wanted with her initial vote before the college was disbanded. She didn't want to remove circles, she wanted mages to have better lives inside the circles without anyone meddling in their affairs. So you cannot bring the old circles back, it didn't work and it had to go.

 

My point is, what Anders did bore fruit, the Templars have less power and mages have better lives in either cases. Violent, murderous revolutionaries play JUST as much a role in bringing about positive changes to injustice as anyone else. Whether you like it or not, that's a fact of history

Most blood thirsty revolutionaries end up dead, where they belong and without changing a thing.  Killing millions is not the answer to every problem.  It's like the old question of do you kill ten people so one hundred can live. Keep living by that logic and those ten bodies will start to pile up real fast.  Anders was crazy and he changed nothing except for create more dead bodies and terror to feed the thin veil there.  Changes happened because of the Inquisition cleaning up Cory's mess not Anders. You wish to argue that Anders brought these changes through his bombing. He did not. Actually Cory changed the world through terror, if you really want to give credit to someone.

 

You fail to realize or simply won't admit that the mages could have been far more successful without Anders bombing. All those people didn't need to die to change the Templar Order and the Mages. The Divine herself was trying to make them happen beforehand, something that was stalled due to Anders attack in Kirkwall. The research into the reversal of the Right of Tranquility had to be put on hold because of him. Anders was nothing but a road block for the mages, and one that got them needlessly slaughtered,  combined with brain dead Fiona who guide them into Templar swords and Tevinter slavers & cultists. smh.

[Lulupab]

Bold type or not, that isn't a fact. It's an opinion, a dubious one, and one for which you provide no actual evidence.  The majority of revolutions do not, in fact, kill millions, for god sake, lol. Some change is even relatively peaceful. Saying that change requires a nut job with a bomb and that  it's equal to a rational effort for peaceful change or organized resistance is just not right. If your revolution kills milllions, you're doing it wrong. Violent, murderous revolutionaries don't create freedom, they create violence and murder. Sometimes smarter people just happen to be around to pick up the pieces. Other times...unending war where no one wins. Mostly totalitarian groups take over. When you create anarchy, it isn't the sensible, moderate people who are poised to create 'peace'. It's the people with power and weapons lurking in the background and waiting to make a play for control.

 

The tactics the Americans used to kick the Brits out are descpicable at best, Anders pales in comparison. Millions in fact died in French revolution.

 

In general even if not millions its a hign number at thousands, it was mere wording that many people die to bring down a single dictator or government. The opportunity for smarter people to "pick up the pieces" are granted by despicable acts. For example an inspiration leader is captured in a small town with government all over the place, guarding him. Someone poisons the water, killing the innocents and guards alike, freeing the leader and winning the war for independence. So what is the morals behind this act? Gray at best but its fact that this despicable act and the person behind it played as much role in bringing this positive change.