228 réponses à ce sujet

[Bethgael]

Hated Kirkwall.

Having said that, you discover in the Legacy DLC that much of its easily corruptible nature is possibly due to Cory being imprisoned so close to the place: usually (except Fifth Blight--and, of course, in Awakening, we find out that's only because of The Architect in any case), darkspawn rise up near there, etc.

With Cory in Orlais and the place being rebuilt (again), it can be a much nicer spot. You know, presuming the Wardens haven't imprisoned another 1400 yo magister in the vicinity....

Either way, I always felt Seb could bite it. Even in the game my Hawke rivalmanced him and killed Anders (who was a friend even though she thought she could stop Meredith by executing him on the spot), I headcanoned her dumping Seb on his arse and telling Bethany she was welcome to him, post-game. She then ran off with Cullen.

No, this playthrough will never be imported into DA:I.

It's a pity he wasn't given a longer lead time, rather than being dumped in as day 1 DLC and half-broken. He would have been better realised. He starts off well, and then goes all screwy. And not in a Good Way.

[Mimilette]

My argument essentially boiled down to "Anders sucks, Aveline sucks, Sebastian sucks. And this whole choice is difficult as a result because of their suckiness". I agree that Sebastian taking over has no guarantee of making things better (I happen to think it'll make things worse, for a slew of reasons -- some already stated on the previous page) nor does keeping Kirkwall free from Starkhaven necessarily mean things will improve.

 

He can't really look for capable mercenaries because he doesn't really have that much coin to use to hire any. He gives you... what... six sovereigns for wiping out the Flint Company? That may seem like a lot but I'm willing to bet mercenaries cost more then that.

 

My personal opinion of Sebastian as a ruler though is that while I do not think he is the most qualified to rule, he needs to take over because his distant cousin Goran Vael is just a puppet. He can make an average ruler, provided Anders is dead. If Anders is alive, he's on a slippery slope to becoming a tyrant.

 

I just can't go with the money excuse. He has a shiny fancy white armor with a fantastic andrastian belt. I'm sure that'd pay for a few people ready to help him go after his family killers. If you really want something, you should be ready to work for it.

 

And his whole logic is completely ridiculous: "I thus resolved to invade Kirkwall to locate Anders." Because obviously that's the best way to do it! And somehow he's surprised that his "annexation hasn't proceeded as planned. The city's resistance opposes me". What, did he think people would just accept him? How do you not plan that there's going to be resistance? The only explanation I can see for such naivety, outside of being dim-witted which he isn't, is that he's completely serious when he says "They forget that I do this for the good of the city and for all of the Free Marches". I'm sure he sees himself as a savior for the people of the Free Marches, no less. Exactly like Anders saw himself as a savior of mages. They both justify killing bystanders for their own vision of justice.

 

I mean the last line of that mission is laughable: "that Kirkwall may be brought under control before more innocents are harmed." That's as far as you can go in term of hypocrisy. Citizens are killed in the war he started, and he asks for help so he doesn't have to kill more.

And I love the fact that when he starts meeting real resistance, he then grows "deeply impatient and is making plan to retreat." Typical Sebastian. It has to be easy or else he can't do it.

[Lulupab]

Most blood thirsty revolutionaries end up dead, where they belong and without changing a thing.  Killing millions is not the answer to every problem.  It's like the old question of do you kill ten people so one hundred can live. Keep living by that logic and those ten bodies will start to pile up real fast.  Anders was crazy and he changed nothing except for create more dead bodies and terror to feed the thin veil there.  Changes happened because of the Inquisition cleaning up Cory's mess not Anders. You wish to argue that Anders brought these changes through his bombing. He did not. Actually Cory changed the world through terror, if you really want to give credit to someone.

 

You fail to realize or simply won't admit that the mages could have been far more successful without Anders bombing. All those people didn't need to die to change the Templar Order and the Mages. The Divine herself was trying to make them happen beforehand, something that was stalled due to Anders attack in Kirkwall. The research into the reversal of the Right of Tranquility had to be put on hold because of him. Anders was nothing but a road block for the mages, and one that got them needlessly slaughtered,  combined with brain dead Fiona who guide them into Templar swords and Tevinter slavers & cultists. smh.

 

Not really, Lambert was planning to kill the divine and create dictatorship (Cole read him). He would never have allowed the reverse of tranquility come into play, Anders or no. You're delusional if you think otherwise and I have a bridge to sell you. The Seekers were corrupt to the core and had to go, it affected Templars as well. As Cassandra puts it, The seekers have failed, without question. The true face of Templars manifested itself when they blindly agreed to Lambert's idea of breaking away from Chantry. The mage rebellion would be put down quite easily with Templars staying with the chantry. Templars breaking away helped mges more than anything, albeit indirectly.

 

I never said Anders "brought" these changes. He played his own role, he showed the mages that in fact they can all get slaughtered for a crime they had nothing to do with. You fail to realize this. Without him Meredith would have annulled the mages (she already sent the request according to Karras) and would have found a way to justify it and get away with it without any consequence. 

[Bethgael]

Problem is that he only helps rebuild Kirkwall if Anders is dead. If he really did want to make Kirkwall pay, he wouldn't invaded regardless of whatever happened to Anders. This doesn't happen since the only reason that he invades Kirkwall is that he's still angry that Anders is alive and wants to take vengeance on anyone even remotely associated with Anders. Cullen's option outright says this about Sebastian's invasion. If Sebastian invades, he outright petitions the Inquisition to help him annex Kirkwall since people who helped Anders are still there and he wants to go after Anders. This clearly shows that he only cares about Anders, not about rebuilding Kirkwall or making the city pay.

 

Very much this. And by "anyone" you can pretty much insert "Aveline" (and Donnic if they're married). It is about vengeance, not altruism.

And Lulupab is correct. Meredith was going to annul the Circle, one way or another. Anders just provided her with an excuse. It was this that finally had Cullen wake the hells up (as you can see if you do the Templar side).

[TEWR]

I just can't go with the money excuse. He has a shiny fancy white armor with a fantastic andrastian belt. I'm sure that'd pay for a few people ready to help him go after his family killers. If you really want something, you should be ready to work for it.

 

How do you not plan that there's going to be resistance? The only explanation I can see for such naivety, outside of being dim-witted which he isn't, is that he's completely serious when he says "They forget that I do this for the good of the city and for all of the Free Marches". I'm sure he sees himself as a savior for the people of the Free Marches, no less. Exactly like Anders saw himself as a savior of mages. They both justify killing bystanders for their own vision of justice.

 

 

True, the armor could go for a pretty penny. I don't think that'd be the wisest course of action to go for but if he needed he could just go for a more "common" armor rather then the prince-like armor he's wearing.

 

Also, I hadn't seen that comparison before, that the two of them would be foils to each other. But now I think it's spot on, after you pointed it out. Kudos!

[Addai]

Some of you folks I think are mistakenly conflating Sebastian's intention of "invading Kirkwall" as the same as "destroying Kirkwall" or "kill everyone in Kirkwall" or "make everyone's life in Kirkwall miserable."

 

I don't think he intend to reduce that city to ashes or even create more suffering for its citizens; merely saving/salvage what can be saved/salvaged and perhaps rebuild it into something better.

 

He's a totally hardcore Andrastian; it's not so unbelievable to think that he feels like he must do something to a city that jumpstart the entire mage-templar war as well as the fall of Chantry in Thedas.

And nothing bad ever happened from good intentions.

 

He has no business there. He can carry out his dreams of Andrastian reform in his own damn city.

[suntiger745]

Plot also demands that some sense of resolution be given, but now at the end of DA2 Hawke has fled, sh*t has firmly hit the fan and the world order has been thrown into chaos

 

Hawke utterly failed in everything he attmepted, beyond trying to get into pants I suppose.  he tried to keep the peace with Qunari and Kirkwall, failed, he tried to protect his family, failed, he tried to keep templars and mages from coming to open war, absolutely failed

But Hawke's story wasn't really about succeeding, as such. It was more to show that some things are too great for one person (and his/her friends) to handle.

Hawke's actions (for the most part, and depending a bit on how you play the character) mitigates the inevitable conflict that was coming anyway. It never was about stopping/preventing them (though the game sometimes give that impression, likely deliberately).

 

Or to put it another way, Hawke, Avelline and their friends are the reason Kirkwall is still standing and not a burned out husk filled with demons.

Like Cassandra says in Inquisition, take your victories where you can.

[Hazegurl]

Not really, Lambert was planning to kill the divine and create dictatorship (Cole read him).

 

You're gonna have to provide proof on that cause I don't remember it. At least tell me what page it's on.

 

 

He would never have allowed the reverse of tranquility come into play, Anders or no. You're delusional if you think otherwise and I have a bridge to sell you. The Seekers were corrupt to the core and had to go, it affected Templars as well. As Cassandra puts it, The seekers have failed, without question. The true face of Templars manifested itself when they blindly agreed to Lambert's idea of breaking away from Chantry. The mage rebellion would be put down quite easily with Templars staying with the chantry. Templars breaking away helped mges more than anything, albeit indirectly.

 

Lambert was hardly the 'stache twirling villain out to get all the innocent mages. There was an assassination attempt on the Divine by a senior enchanter which Lambert had to investigate. So which group posed the real threat to her? I'm not saying Lambert wanted that Rite of Tranquility secret revealed but he did have legit concerns about what was going on at the Spire. He knew what Cole was before anyone and the tensions were raised by that ****** (whose name I forgot) mage who planted false evidence during a murder investigation for the sole purpose of causing a rift between the mages and Templars. It wasn't all Lambert.

 

Do I think the Temps should have stayed put, yep. But so should the mages. But with the Divine helping the mages. Staying put wouldn't have gotten them anywhere. By then, the die was cast.

 

I never said Anders "brought" these changes. He played his own role, he showed the mages that in fact they can all get slaughtered for a crime they had nothing to do with. You fail to realize this. Without him Meredith would have annulled the mages (she already sent the request according to Karras) and would have found a way to justify it and get away with it without any consequence. 

 

 

Every mage understands what the Right of Annulment is. They didn't need Anders to show them what they had known for years. And no, Meredith never would have been able to annul the Circle without permission, which is why she sent for it in the first place. She had no permission to annul the circle and she never would have gotten away with it. That is simply your own headcanon.

 

But you want to know who gave her the go ahead? Your golden boy Anders:

 

http://dragonage.wik...ht_of_Annulment

"Normally, the Right can only be invoked by a Grand Cleric or a de facto successor (Revered Mother); if there is no access to a Grand Cleric or Revered Mother, then Knight-Commanders of the Templar Order have legal authority to invoke the Right."

 

Dumbshyt Anders killed the only person who could have stopped Meredith.    But yeah, he's your hero.

 

Edit: I'm gonna end this soon to be Circular argument. But making this my final post on the subject of Anders in this thread. Now back to people hating on Sebastian.

[Addai]

Anders' actions are really beside the point. At the point this happens, the mage-templar war is over and there's no more unrest in Kirkwall than anywhere else. Sebastian's gone power drunk after having been cooped up in the Chantry for too long and then been given people who follow his orders. He wants a holy crusade for his own reasons.

[TEWR]

 

You're gonna have to provide proof on that cause I don't remember it. At least tell me what page it's on.

 

I believe it's from Inquisition, specifically Cole/Cassandra banter.

[Gambit458]

Not really, Lambert was planning to kill the divine and create dictatorship (Cole read him). He would never have allowed the reverse of tranquility come into play, Anders or no. You're delusional if you think otherwise and I have a bridge to sell you. The Seekers were corrupt to the core and had to go, it affected Templars as well. As Cassandra puts it, The seekers have failed, without question. The true face of Templars manifested itself when they blindly agreed to Lambert's idea of breaking away from Chantry. The mage rebellion would be put down quite easily with Templars staying with the chantry. Templars breaking away helped mges more than anything, albeit indirectly.

 

I never said Anders "brought" these changes. He played his own role, he showed the mages that in fact they can all get slaughtered for a crime they had nothing to do with. You fail to realize this. Without him Meredith would have annulled the mages (she already sent the request according to Karras) and would have found a way to justify it and get away with it without any consequence. 

Well you gotta remember that Meredith also did that while she was under the effects of the lyrium idol. She was always a fanatic, as Cullen makes it clear when you talk to him about her in Inquisition, but that idol made her 1000x worse

[Hazegurl]

I believe it's from Inquisition, specifically Cole/Cassandra banter.

Ah, that's probably why I missed it. I rarely brought Cass along when I picked up other people. lol!

[Chari]

I like Aveline... but ****** just let the Sebastian deal with the shitville

Honestly, she let so much **** happen during her work that she isn't the best candidate

[Master Warder Z_]

I believe it's from Inquisition, specifically Cole/Cassandra banter.

It isn't.

Cole never said anything to such effect.

Their discussion on Lambert was entirely on Cole killing him.

It was never brought up that he intended to kill Justinia and indeed that would contradict the character intent from Asunder.

[Ryriena]

It isn't.

Cole never said anything to such effect.

Their discussion on Lambert was entirely on Cole killing him.

It was never brought up that he intended to kill Justinia and indeed that would contradict the character intent from Asunder.

Actually he did bring that up as one of the reasons in one of th banters between him and Cassandra.

[Master Warder Z_]

Actually he did bring that up as one of the reasons in one of th banters between him and Cassandra.

That he deliberately was going to kill Justinia?

Citation needed.

I got the banter bug finally controllable.

[Iakus]

Actually he did bring that up as one of the reasons in one of th banters between him and Cassandra.

I don't thinnk he specifically said Lambert planned to assasinate the Divine.  But he did plan on deposing her.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't thinnk he specifically said Lambert planned to assasinate the Divine. But he did plan on deposing her.

This I recall and it matches up with Asunder.

[TEWR]

I don't thinnk he specifically said Lambert planned to assasinate the Divine.  But he did plan on deposing her.

 

Just looked at the wiki and you're right, nothing about killing her. Just deposing her.

 

I suppose one could read into that that he would end up killing her maybe, in some hushed up method. But nothing explicit is said.

[Elsariel]

Anders' actions are really beside the point. At the point this happens, the mage-templar war is over and there's no more unrest in Kirkwall than anywhere else. Sebastian's gone power drunk after having been cooped up in the Chantry for too long and then been given people who follow his orders. He wants a holy crusade for his own reasons.

This is exactly it. I can't understand why he's purging Kirkwall if Anders lives but "rebuilding" if he's dead. The state of Kirkwall is the same no matter if Anders is alive or not. The only conclusion I can come up with is that he's bent on revenge in the "Anders lives" scenario.

[Lulupab]

That he deliberately was going to kill Justinia?

Citation needed.

I got the banter bug finally controllable.

 

Cole can read people, that's why he killed Lambert. He found about his evil plans and decided to kill him. Although, he doesn't say he wishes to "kill" the divine. but I don't see how a lord seeker can get rid of the divine by other means. But his plan for turning the system into dictatorship was real. According to Cole he had zero guilt when he killed/hurt people, whether mages or Templars. (yes he killed a Templar who protected Rhys and Cole). If this is true I see him worse than Meredith because she always felt guilty for doing what she thought was necessary. 

[Sifr]

Both of them are petty. Anders acknowledges nothing, he says the words but they are hollow because at the end he believes that what he did was right. That's like asking someone to apologize for stealing from you, and they do, but then go on to state that they needed your money and at least they got to buy what they wanted with it.  That's not an acknowledgement of what they did wrong or how they hurt you.  He only wished to be executed to become a martyr.  Anders is also self righteous, thinks he knows what better for all mages, and is a narcissist who was blinded by revenge.

 

Of course Anders is self-righteous, what do you expect from a guy who has a Spirit of Justice (who we saw in Awakening was a particularly self-righeous entity even before he joined Anders) living in his head and constantly influencing his actions?

 

As I've said before elsewhere, regardless of Anders' crimes, the problem is that people like to paint him as a villain but not remember that the guy isn't in his right mind since he's become an abomination, so we have no idea how much he was responsible for or complicit with? The fact that if you rival him enough and convince him to give up his plan, that Justice takes over and does it anyway, makes me question whether or not Justice was not the actual villain all along?

 

Sure, that doesn't excuse him for killing all those people, nor does that excuse people who are mentally ill in our world from committing crimes, but we at least have laws that acknowledge that in those cases, that they did so being either unaware of the severity of it, or weren't in their right mind when they did so? Take Connor for instance, who was similarly possessed and unleashed a horde of undead on Redcliffe. Why is he treated with relative sympathy for the evil he did under the influence of another entity, whereas Anders is deemed a monster?

 

To be honest, invading Kirkwall for revenge makes Sebastian look objectively worse because what he does, he at least does of his own violition.

[Sifr]

There is a banter with Blackwall (or maybe Dorian) I think that goes something like:

 

Blackwall: You know, Varric, I've been to Kirkwall.

 

Varric(slightly interested/eager): Yea?

 

Blackwall: Yea, it was a shithole.

 

Varric (resigned): Yea...

 

He wasn't talking about Kirkwall, it was talking about the Hanged Man being an absolute dive of a bar.

 

Varric: Yes, filled with some of the worst, and best, people in the world.

[TheChris92]

The only reason I could see for me wanting to defend that city of brown noise would be for the sake of it being Varric's home and I also don't really like Sebastian all that much. Otherwise, whatever.