65 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

I must admit that I dont care at all for this little part of game mechanics. If the personal companion stories are connected with any game or combat mechanics is absolutely unimportant for me.

It's another indication that gameplay limitations are a wrong way to go about those missions. 

Companion stories in ME2 expanded upon the world and the characters. They made the universe feel alive, made people care about it and the characters. But their story impact was very small. I'll give an example - loyal and non-loyal Garrus as a squad leader in Suicide Mission. There is exactly the same cutscene for both versions, only the end differs when instead of "just catching my breath" Garrus dies. Loyal and non-loyal Garrus should've gotten completely different cutscenes which should've also been unique to Garrus alone. Loyal and non-loyal Jacob should've also gotten completely different cutscenes, as well as any other squad member that you can assign as a squad leader. Cutscenes should be unique to the character, not Mordin shooting mooks with an Avenger.

[Lee T]

No - it isnt. If you search for pure logic you have to play simulations. This is a shooter with a fictional story. The focus of ANY fictional story is just like the author wants it to be. If the author wants implantats that can manipulate matter - he does it. If the author wants all people talk in the same language although they are from different planets - he does it. If he wants personal quests of sqaud members cause he can capture player emotionally - he does it.

To be fair, Fixer has a point. They could have woven the squadmate's personnal issues into quests that are actually relevant to the main story. It would have been a definite plus if each mission had brought something to help you in the end or taught you something relevant to the general plot like they did with Tuchanka in ME3.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

OP, I agree with you. Because it did deliver well in ME2 and remember: "Bioware's Best things are the Characters, not the History"

 

See, it could work well if it's implemented well. Still, we have no new mention of ME:Next, but we do know it's based on "Exploration", so IDK if that'll make in that game.

[Larry-3]

Assuming you are mostly paragon. Seeing as how Tali, Liara, and Garrus return in act 3 -- after you earn all their loyalties in act 2 -- would you really need to do it again? And after saving the Krogan from near extinction I am almost certain that Wrex and his brother are loyal. After unshackling EDI and allowing her to learn she pretty much is loyal. You did help save Ashley or Kaidan... twice... so... I am marking them as loyal.

 

What I believe should return is the RPG elements that 1 and 2 possess. There is a nice balance in the first two; the third one is like 90 percent shooter.

[Booth]

OK - longer posting again

 

It would have been a definite plus if each mission had brought something to help you in the end or taught you something relevant to the general plot like they did with Tuchanka in ME3.

 

I agree, but I think this is a VERY hard goal to accomplish if you want that for all companion questlines. For me it is enough if the personal story teaches me something relevant about the character and I think it is a nice bonus if it teaches me something about the world and the race(s). And I think most companion missions in ME2 did this.

 

Jack -> Learning about cerberus.

Jacob -> Learning about colonization dangers

Samara -> Learning about Asari mythology

Tali -> Learning about Quarians (and also Geth) life and history

Legion -> Learning about Geth (and also Quarian) life an history

Kasumi -> Learning about criminal power in the citadel sector

Garrus -> Learning about criminal power and lifestyle in terminus systems

Mordin -> Learning about Salarians, Krogans and Genophage

Grunt -> Learning about Krogans

Thane -> Learning about Drell and Hanar

Zaeed - Learning about Blue Suns

 

Miranda -> Learning... only about her family and a little bit about Cerberus.

 

 

What I can imagine for nextME: Companions that will be met in new locations and that are linked to that locations and you have to help them somehow to recruit them. Companions you meet somewhere else, but who have to "solve" something at a special location. Companions who know somebody important at a special location which is the entry to that important personality and by getting know this special relationship between "location-vip" and companion you learn a lot about the location.

And also I can imagine not only to have one quest, but a questline of several quests.

 

It also would be nice if this things "develop". Like the companions quest line of the first star wars trilogy - yes... Han Solos personal issue with Jabba is in my opinion exactly that kind of side-quest I like to see. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "big war" - but its a great bonus for the movies, like the whole character of Han Solo is a great enhancement of the trilogy.

 

And of cours I would like to see daddies, mothers, daughters, sons, uncles, ex-partners, etc etc... of my companions and offer me a nice bunch of relationships, intrigues and conflicts. Personal conflicts are for me much more interesting than just a war like any other.

 

By the way - yes - all this dont need to be "mandatory". I dont care if Bioware even puts a non-story-mode in the game, that lets you shoot without talking. But if I dont get emotional stuff, especially of my companions... I dont see the point, why nextME should be something special. That would be just another scifi-shooter I would buy a few years later as 5-euro-game-of-the-year-edition. But... if this should be the way of ME... I would accept it. Would leave more money in my bag for other stuff

[KaiserShep]

I love companion quests/missions, but tying loyalty to their survival insofar that they do the same exact job, but are somehow weaker, is a terrible game mechanic in itself. If anything, it should simply tie into things like possible betrayal, companions leaving (if the game implements an approval system), potentially unlocking further content from the companion later in the story (either romance or follow-up missions), etc..

[spinachdiaper]

Loyalty Missions are better replaced with companion side quests that help if you do them but don't hurt if you skip them. Also the whole Like/Dislike thing needs to get thrown out an airlock. If you want to drop a companion you should just choose to kick them off the team, not this song and dance Paragon/Renegade/Like/Dislike artificial conflict thing that gets them to bail on the team.

[MegaIllusiveMan]

Assuming you are mostly paragon. Seeing as how Tali, Liara, and Garrus return in act 3 -- after you earn all their loyalties in act 2 -- would you really need to do it again? And after saving the Krogan from near extinction I am almost certain that Wrex and his brother are loyal. After unshackling EDI and allowing her to learn she pretty much is loyal. You did help save Ashley or Kaidan... twice... so... I am marking them as loyal.

 

What I believe should return is the RPG elements that 1 and 2 possess. There is a nice balance in the first two; the third one is like 90 percent shooter.

 

Yes, but we are talking about a whole new game here, not Shepard's story or loyalty from previous squadmates...

[CptFalconPunch]

If it means the return of daddy issues being resolved by Captain Space Therapist, no thanks.

 

I'm commander shepard, but I guess I'm now your therapist.

 

 

I would like the depth of the characters integrated into the main storyline next time. ME2 loyality missions for Mordin, legion and Tali where outstanding, because they got you close to the characters, while fleshing out the universe and continuing the storyline from ME1. The others, not so much.

[Element Zero]

I thought Miranda's mission was a game-changer. She seemed all business, focused to a bitchy degree, prior to this. That makes sense, considering she's been with and among Cerberus since her late teens. These clowns are the only people she's really ever associated with, given her upbringing. Jacob elaborates a bit on how "trusting" and "friendly" an environment that would be. When she finally gets the chance to see and speak with her sister, and gets teary-eyed and choked up, we finally get to see Miranda. That was pretty cool. She was a much more open person after that mission.

That mission also had some very good gameplay.

I don't think there were any bad Loyalty Missions. The ones you mentioned were definitely among the better ones, in my opinion. I'd include Miranda's on that list and call them the best of the lot.

[rapscallioness]

I like the idea very much, OP. Although, I'd rather think of them now as "Character Missions", or  rather Squaddie Missions so they would not be tied to a loyalty thing, or improved combat stuff. Because, tbh, they don't need to be tied to those things.

 

Actually, you know what I would like to see-- squaddie missions similar to LotSB. I really enjoyed that dlc. It, too, was like a loyalty mission. It was focused on Liara, but you got to see Ilium in a more close up way....heck, even driving a flying taxi. lol!

 

ME2 had alot of squad mates so character missions on the lvl of LotsB would have been too much. If there were say 6 squaddies the personal missions could be more in depth than ME2. Tie them to locations we need to explore. Have them be layered quests within a quest kinda thing.

[Mister J]

@ tallrickruush: Huh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I thought Miranda's loyalty mission was amongst the dullest as far as gameplay concerned - and I still do honestly, I mean, exploding canisters are the closest thing that level it comes to being original - But now that I think about it, on a story and character level you're right: it's the moment of transformation for the character of Miranda.

[Larry-3]

Yes, but we are talking about a whole new game here, not Shepard's story or loyalty from previous squadmates...

 

Oh, well alright.

[Xiolyrr Zoharei]

Some very interesting perspectives in the replies. I'm glad to see that there are players who care about substance and not just 'pew pew pew' new skills unlocked. I'm revisiting ME 2 and after completing Mordin's and Grunt's sidequests on Tuchanka, I am realizing once again why this is my favorite entry in the trilogy.

 

The amount of depth to be taking in by the Krogan's way of life as explained by the Shaman after Grunt's trail or Mordin's 'universe demands diversity' code of ethics (a great 'synthesis' ending for ME 3 debate, lol) he explains for limiting effects of the genophage to target every 1 in 1000 krogan, not only make for interesting conversations about real life issues, but it made me actually care about these characters and species, besides looking at who has the best tech / biotic powers for whatever mission. And the fact that these are skippable side missions, makes it even more of a treat because it's not forced on you, yet you are rewarded with more lore on the world around you and your team.

 

It's the same reason why damn near everybody wanted to marry Serana from Skyrim. You actually got a chance to learn and know more about who she is and her story. Imagine how much better Skyrim would have been if every companion had depth way beyond static responses. And not every character has to even be likable. I couldn't stand Ashley from ME once I learned of her xenophobic ideals, even after she explained why, but at least it gave her some depth.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love exploration in an open, diverse world like Skyrim, and I look forward to this being implemented in ME 4. But I hope Bioware doesn't loose focus or take shortcuts with telling a great story and giving depth to it's characters.

 

Unless it's humorous side quests like looking for that credit 'chit' in ME 2, I'd rather spend more side quests, learning more about my squadmates and NPC's I encounter both good, grey, and bad, rather than reading about them in a codex entry.

[Element Zero]

@ tallrickruush: Huh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I thought Miranda's loyalty mission was amongst the dullest as far as gameplay concerned - and I still do honestly, I mean, exploding canisters are the closest thing that level it comes to being original - But now that I think about it, on a story and character level you're right: it's the moment of transformation for the character of Miranda.

I think the fights are decent. I particularly enjoy the final fight with Enyala and her troops, even if it typically ends in 45 seconds, or so. That's not bad for a gunfight in which people are slinging space-magic. I like that the crap can hit the fan in that fight if you get sloppy. I'm not sure how exciting it is on lower difficulties; I only play on Hardcore or Insanity. None of the fights are really all that engaging, otherwise.

[Vespervin]

The banter definitely has to be there, but the loyalty missions... I'm not sure. As others have said, it seemed silly that I had to do this one mission so my squad member done their job properly. I wouldn't be against it, but it shouldn't be crucial to the main plot. It definitely should change how they interact with you and others.

[Element Zero]

The banter definitely has to be there, but the loyalty missions... I'm not sure. As others have said, it seemed silly that I had to do this one mission so my squad member done their job properly. I wouldn't be against it, but it shouldn't be crucial to the main plot. It definitely should change how they interact with you and others.

Yeah, it need not be a "do this for me so I can focus on my job" thing, this time around. I do hope we have companion-focused side missions, though. As you alluded, they could be pivotal to building stronger rapport or relationships. Most important is the metagame fact that it allows us, the players, to get to know the NPC.

[NM_Che56]

Seeing as how we're gonna get a whole new cast of characters, having companion-centric quests seems pretty essential.  We HAVE to get to know them somehow.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Now that the boring Reaper threat is out of the way, we should get a more personal story again and loyalty mission would be a great bonus. Every DA game has them and the best ME game (ME2) has them. So I'd say they're pretty good to have.

[JeffZero]

Seeing as how we're gonna get a whole new cast of characters, having companion-centric quests seems pretty essential. We HAVE to get to know them somehow.

ME1 did a pretty bad job with these. As long as NME does better than at least ME1 I'll be satisfied.

ME2's the high mark on this kind of content, but it took making this kind of content the focus of the entire narrative in order to justify the cost in resources necessary to construct these. I'd prefer that didn't happen again, but I would take it over making a big, gameplay-fixated world with a diluted story, at least.

[Element Zero]

ME1 did a pretty bad job with these. As long as NME does better than at least ME1 I'll be satisfied.
ME2's the high mark on this kind of content, but it took making this kind of content the focus of the entire narrative in order to justify the cost in resources necessary to construct these. I'd prefer that didn't happen again, but I would take it over making a big, gameplay-fixated world with a diluted story, at least.

I've thought exactly the same thing. If they are determined to have us traipsing across an "open galaxy", they can at least use this type of mission as one means of filling all that space. DAI failed to put anything meaningful in a large, but boring, world. ME must fill those spaces if they want to avoid the same letdown. I worry that doing so will simply require more resources than they have. If that's the case, scrap the open world in favor if a focused story. I play ME for the stories, not for "exploration". Having both would be nice, but there's no question of which I'd choose if I'm forced to do so.

ME2 did lose its way, narratively. They spent an entire game on a peripheral enemy and building a team to fight said stand-in. That should teach them to have a plan beforehand, this time. Still, despite this huge flaw, ME2 is oft praised as the best in the series. They did such a good job with that overblown side-story that it is a phenomenal gaming experience. I hope they keep this in mind, remembering where their strengths lie, and don't wander too far into unfamiliar (and unwanted by many fans) open-world terrain.

[JoltDealer]

I don't mind Loyalty Missions because they served an important role in both narrative and gameplay.  If you treat Mass Effect 2 like a television show, Loyalty Missions are the "character focus" episodes.  These types of episodes rarely advance the main plot, but they expand on a particular character's history or personality.  It is possible to leave these types of stories out, but it often leaves the characters as little more than talking heads with attitudes.

 

If they were to return, I'd like to see them be handled slowly over the course of the game.  Not one big mission all at once.  Also, it shouldn't completely overrule their opinion of you.  If you make decisions that they don't agree with consistently, they probably shouldn't be loyal to you.

 

Nice strawman, But it's not a matter of taste, it's a matter of logic. Expert combatants should perform their duties in well enough manner regardless of their personal issues. What you or I like to see in a narrative is  not relevant in this disscusion. 

 

What's logical about dying for someone when you don't believe in their cause?  Expert combatants would do their job to the best of their ability, so the idea of squadmates not using certain moves until their loyal is dumb.  I agree on that, but keep in mind, those abilities are unlocked even if their loyalty is lost.  However, I doubt that expert combatants would die for someone they were not loyal to.  In fact, I'd say that they would be inclined not to die at all.

 

Your squadmates' character and loyalty to you matters because it explains their motivations for volunteering for a suicide mission, as well as why they don't just abandon you for the sake of survival at any point.  No normal person would simply sign up to potentially die, especially for someone they didn't trust.  Now that is illogical!  You claim that narrative isn't relevant, but this is Bioware, a developer known for creating some of video games' most diverse and complex characters.  If you really don't care for the stories, character development, and just want some war game, then that other guy is right -- you're playing the wrong game.

[mrjack]

Another thing DAI didn't get quite right.

 

• Cassandra and Varric's loyalty missions were quite good (especially Cass's) set in new dungeons with decent combat and story.
• Solas - activate magic trap before demon/spirit friend kills us all  - over in 3 minutes.
• Dorian - Reunite him with his father. Quick convo. The end.
• Sera - Kill 4 bandits. Have a conversation with a noble. The end.
• Blackwall - Find out his secret. Decide his fate - Not bad storytelling I guess but no combat.
• Vivienne - Kill a snowy wyvern (with or without her) and takes its heart. The most fearsome of all wyverns!... I thought it was going to be a dragon. It was more like an alligator and took 10 seconds. Is the heart of the snowy wyvern an analogue of her ice cold heart which we then see melt when she loses her lover? I don't care, she's still the b-tch that rearranged my furniture for sport.
• Cole - Demon or human? You decide. No combat.
• Iron Bull - Kill two waves of Venatori and make a relatively inconsequential decision.

So for me only 2 were good/acceptable and the other 7 were big fails mostly because even if there was some emotional storytelling in there, they were mostly just really light on content and over so quickly.

 

I hope MEN does better.

[pdusen]

So far for me, no game has really beat ME2 in terms of connection to your companions.

It doesn't have to be the focus of the game, but Bioware, you are really, really good at it. Don't skimp on the things you're good at.

[CroGamer002]

I'd also want more "Suicide Mission" type mission. Not necessary for your squadmates and crew to die in all of them( but yes in some), but to give you more choices in your mission with varied consequences. Plus, I always found it silly you leave most of your squad on your ship in ME trilogy, so it would feel great if you can put them on support roles, multiple squad coordination and etc.