65 réponses à ce sujet

[JeffZero]

Another thing DAI didn't get quite right.

• Cassandra and Varric's loyalty missions were quite good (especially Cass's) set in new dungeons with decent combat and story.
• Solas - activate magic trap before demon/spirit friend kills us all - over in 3 minutes.
• Dorian - Reunite him with his father. Quick convo. The end.
• Sera - Kill 4 bandits. Have a conversation with a noble. The end.
• Blackwall - Find out his secret. Decide his fate - Not bad storytelling I guess but no combat.
• Vivienne - Kill a snowy wyvern (with or without her) and takes its heart. The most fearsome of all wyverns!... I thought it was going to be a dragon. It was more like an alligator and took 10 seconds. Is the heart of the snowy wyvern an analogue of her ice cold heart which we then see melt when she loses her lover? I don't care, she's still the b-tch that rearranged my furniture for sport.
• Cole - Demon or human? You decide. No combat.
• Iron Bull - Kill two waves of Venatori and make a relatively inconsequential decision.

So for me only 2 were good/acceptable and the other 7 were big fails mostly because even if there was some emotional storytelling in there, they were mostly just really light on content and over so quickly.

I hope MEN does better.

Agreed. I wasn't expecting too much in this regard myself so I was pretty happy with a few of them but some missed the mark pretty badly.

Also, the animation in Iron Bull's quest was kind of terrible. There are a few key instances in DAI where I was literally impressed with how shoddy something looked, and that was one of those times. Not to spoil, so I'll say, the uh, vehicle in that mission... and the group that's there with you when they're fighting... both elements looked pretty amateurish IMO. Strangely.

It was probably a result of having to factor in all the open-world stuff going on in that location, maybe? As always though I'll cynically comment about how open world gaming means nothing to me so it's unfortunate I kinda get shafted in some ways in favor of its implementation.

Credit where credit is due, though: some parts of DAI look fantastic. It's pretty back-and-forth from what I remember. Certain cutscenes have exceptional attention to detail and the kind of mise-en-scene I expect to find only from the likes of Kojima and Naughty Dog.

Then there were some other times where it just looks bad.

[Malanek]

How many companions should there even be?

 

I'm fine with a slightly smaller roster of around six if it meant there could be more individual development. I think banter adds a huge amount to the enjoyment of the game and really helps develop characters more than any other mechanism. I'm not so sure "loyalty missions" specifically need to be in, but it does depend on exactly what is meant by it. Having each squad mate come to you for help once just feels a little artificial. I do want the squadmates to interact with the world and the story and help to drive that story forward themselves at various times. I just want it done in a way that feels more authentic and less symmetrical.

[mrjack]

Also, the animation in Iron Bull's quest was kind of terrible. There are a few key instances in DAI where I was literally impressed with how shoddy something looked, and that was one of those times. Not to spoil, so I'll say, the uh, vehicle in that mission... and the group that's there with you when they're fighting... both elements looked pretty amateurish IMO. Strangely.

Yeah animations... super stretchy eyebrows and grimaces like this:

Spoiler

 

Talk about rubberface. And that pose when you're talking to be people and they hunch over wringing their hands.

 

Sorry to get OT.

[InterrogationBear]

Also, the animation in Iron Bull's quest was kind of terrible. There are a few key instances in DAI where I was literally impressed with how shoddy something looked, and that was one of those times. Not to spoil, so I'll say, the uh, vehicle in that mission... and the group that's there with you when they're fighting... both elements looked pretty amateurish IMO. Strangely.

I think the subpar animations in some quests can be attributed to DA:I being a cross-gen game.

I assume they are using the same animations for all 5 versions of the game. The pitiful  amount of RAM in the old consoles has to be a huge problem for an open-world game.

[JeffZero]

Hmmm, could be.

[themikefest]

If they have loyalty missions in the game, don't have them where the squadmates cry about daddy or some other garbage. If they do I want to stuff a baby bottle in their mouth

[JeffZero]

[...] . Excellent. […] . Excellent

Chris Priestly, you're back?!

[Geralt of Relays]

“Loyalty” in Mass Effect 2 was something that sounded great going into it blind, but turned out to be window dressing and actually doesn’t make any sense in the context of nearly all the characters. It was merely a flag to reduce the chance of losing them in the SM. Now most of the missions themselves had really interesting stuff, but it was in the wrong story. If that was the main point of Mass Effect 1, then that would make more sense at least, building a team and learning of a vastly superior adversary is on the cusp of wiping out life in the galaxy.

 

Let’s look at examples of the characters:

 

Zaeed – Is one of the highest priced & most feared bounty hunters/mercenary soldiers in the galaxy. He even says to Shepard when being recruited that the fee from Cerberus gave him all the motivation he needed to sign onto the SM. He’s a professional, and has been dealing with his betrayal for over 20 years, so if he were truly “distracted” then going by the stories he tells you he should be a man long since dead. The only portion of the mechanic I agree with is Zaeed as 1 of the fire team leaders could get squad members killed, but that makes sense since Zaeed has made it clear in some of his stories he’s quite notorious for surviving, but usually just on his own.

 

Thane – A Drell assassin with the perfect memory, who has been learning his craft from a very young age, and can with a single incorrect thought can get lost within a memory. Another professional that is also notorious for getting the job done and being very expensive. So it again makes no sense that his mission should affect his living or not, if he ever got distracted at the wrong moment he’d be long dead by now.

 

Samara – Been a Justicar for 400 years or more, not much to say here because again she’s had plenty of time to learn to put aside any distractions or feelings in the name of doing her job. As detective Anaya said “whoever that person was before taking their vows, that person is dead.” So again not seeing a problem here not doing her mission.

 

Garrus – He’s in the middle of fighting off 3 merc groups (plus freelancers) while you go to recruit him, if thoughts of Sidonis or the loss of his team distracted him he’d have got killed in minutes. It’s only noted he’s getting sloppy through sheer tiredness. Plus he joins your squad because he knows Shepard, and if you did his mission in ME1 you could argue he should be already “loyal”, same with Tali. (Would have been a nice reward for those that played ME1.)

 

So if such a mechanic were to return in NME, it would have to be done much better, make more sense, and no daddy issues.

[Mister J]

What's being scornfully called daddy issues is what I call the human element of the Mass Effect games: the characters and their backstories; that's one the pillars of these games. It shows that these characters are realistic people with realistic issues and Shepard shows himself being a leader who prepares his people emotionally for the task that is to come. If you don't like that then I wonder why you're even here instead of checking out one of the many soulless Call of Duty games, where you got a nice faceless, mute floating gun running around that doesn't have to worry about 'daddy issues'.

[Geralt of Relays]

What's being scornfully called daddy issues is what I call the human element of the Mass Effect games: the characters and their backstories; that's one the pillars of these games. It shows that these characters are realistic people with realistic issues and Shepard shows himself being a leader who prepares his people emotionally for the task that is to come. If you don't like that then I wonder why you're even here instead of checking out one of the many soulless Call of Duty games, where you got a nice faceless, mute floating gun running around that doesn't have to worry about 'daddy issues'.

 

They’re called “daddy issues” because that’s what they are, and they wore thin quickly. The content on an individual basis is not “bad” but for one repetitive, and as I stated in my previous post out of place & context in the story/game mechanics.

 

Let’s break it down:

 

Thane – Issues being a dad

Jacob – Issues with dad

Miranda – Issues with/caused by dad

Tali – Issues caused by dad

Samara – Issues being a dad (or mother if you prefer)

Zaeed – Issues from being co-founder (dad if you will) of Blue Suns

Garrus – Issues from being “dad” of a lost team

Grunt – Issues resulting from “dad”

Legion – “Family” issues

Jack – Issues from not having a dad (or mother)

 

The issues with Mordin/Kasumi were with a friend/lover respectively, which with a few changes to dialogue could have easily been parent/child, I think it must have sunk in to the writers they’d need a couple that at least seemed cosmetically different.

 

The objective of Mass Effect 2 wasn’t to be the ship’s therapist, it was to stop the bad guys, and that was weakened by the decision to make this more concentrated about the characters. I think Bioware at the time was afraid of advancing the Reaper plot too much, and ended up making ME2 this middle part of the story where you faff about for the most part.

 

This was the major downside on Bioware’s part not having even a hint of a plan for the trilogy’s whole story. If you look at it now, it makes much more sense to swap ME2 & 1 round in terms of running order. ME1 could have reasonably been: build a team, get to know them, get them “loyal”, while along the way investigating these collectors and discover they have far more powerful overlords who intend to destroy the galaxy.

 

They didn’t do that though, which is why I hope there is much more planning involved for MEN, I’m fine in principal with character missions or even at a stretch “loyalty” ones, but it has to be done in a meaningful way that makes sense in both story and game mechanic context.

[mrjack]

They’re called “daddy issues” because that’s what they are, and they wore thin quickly. The content on an individual basis is not “bad” but for one repetitive, and as I stated in my previous post out of place & context in the story/game mechanics.

 

Let’s break it down:

 

Thane – Issues being a dad

Jacob – Issues with dad

Miranda – Issues with/caused by dad

Tali – Issues caused by dad

Samara – Issues being a dad (or mother if you prefer)

Zaeed – Issues from being co-founder (dad if you will) of Blue Suns

Garrus – Issues from being “dad” of a lost team

Grunt – Issues resulting from “dad”

Legion – “Family” issues

Jack – Issues from not having a dad (or mother)

 

The issues with Mordin/Kasumi were with a friend/lover respectively, which with a few changes to dialogue could have easily been parent/child, I think it must have sunk in to the writers they’d need a couple that at least seemed cosmetically different.

 

The objective of Mass Effect 2 wasn’t to be the ship’s therapist, it was to stop the bad guys, and that was weakened by the decision to make this more concentrated about the characters. I think Bioware at the time was afraid of advancing the Reaper plot too much, and ended up making ME2 this middle part of the story where you faff about for the most part.

 

This was the major downside on Bioware’s part not having even a hint of a plan for the trilogy’s whole story. If you look at it now, it makes much more sense to swap ME2 & 1 round in terms of running order. ME1 could have reasonably been: build a team, get to know them, get them “loyal”, while along the way investigating these collectors and discover they have far more powerful overlords who intend to destroy the galaxy.

 

They didn’t do that though, which is why I hope there is much more planning involved for MEN, I’m fine in principal with character missions or even at a stretch “loyalty” ones, but it has to be done in a meaningful way that makes sense in both story and game mechanic context.

 

"Daddy issues" in its original (and most common) sense refers to the Elektra Complex where girls are unhealthily fixated with their father well into adulthood, so much so that it detrimentally effects their relationships with other men as they hold their father up as an example of how all men should be. This doesn't even apply to Miranda as she hated her father and while Tali loved her father, I don't think she wanted to find a guy just like him. Although it could be argued that despite her lamentations about how hard he was on her, she always craved his love and he was in a position of power (like Shepard) and she had a crush on Shepard since meeting him which wasn't returned in the first game, mirroring the father-daughter dynamic she grew up with.

 

Anyway, the most you could say is that the squad had personal problems that needed resolving and about half of them involved their family... which is the case for a lot of people. Whenever you get to know someone better, you inevitably end up talking about their family and childhood. It is used as a plot device to show a deepening intimacy between characters because it is something we can all relate to. Friends, family, love, heartbreak, betrayal and loss are universal themes that speak to everyone and I'm glad they were included in Mass Effect's story. The characters would be nothing without their personal stories and the game really would be just another shooter.

[Mister J]

The issues of Legion, Zaeed, Garrus, Jack and Grunt are nowhere father or family related. Metaphorically maybe, but that's a personal interpretation, one that I find to be reaching. The others' problems had to do with family, that's true, but beyond that it's hard to see the similarities. Every situation and every relationship with the other family member was very different. You can see them as all the same and call it repetitive but I would call that a dishonest judgement.

 

And seeing how most people's strongest feelings are for their family or partners it makes sense that those are the issues that have to be put to rest before going into a very dangerous mission.

 

As for what you would have want from ME2: that's a personal matter. I do think there could have been some more Collector moments, maybe in the side missions, but I highly doubt that the game could have reached the same level of character building and emotional involvement without having the player delve into the characters personal lives. The characters are ME's strongest pillars as far as I am concerned, and I believe that if ME2 didn't focus on them as heavily it would have been a much more average, ordinary game... (also thumbs up for mrjack's second paragraph ^ )

[mrjack]

 (also thumbs up for mrjack's second paragraph ^ )

 

Thanks, I err... went off on a bit of a tangent there for a while about Tali but I think I pulled it back in the end 

[Vazgen]

Using family as means of getting the player to know the character better is a good thing. But it should not be directly timed to . The galaxy is huge, what're the odds of almost every your squadmate having family-related issues that require Shepard's attention? Did Jacob's mission really needed to be about his father? I'd say no. Same thing about Samara and Thane. Those issues give those characters more depth, sure, but they can be explored through dialogue and have missions used for something else.

[mrjack]

Using family as means of getting the player to know the character better is a good thing. But it should not be directly timed to . The galaxy is huge, what're the odds of almost every your squadmate having family-related issues that require Shepard's attention? Did Jacob's mission really needed to be about his father? I'd say no. Same thing about Samara and Thane. Those issues give those characters more depth, sure, but they can be explored through dialogue and have missions used for something else.

 

I really liked the story content of Samara's mission and the moment at the end where if you pass the rep checks you can decide her fate and possibly recruit a new squadmate. I wish there had been combat in some form but I wanted that for all the missions. Thane's mission, not so much. I think I cared more about Mouse and his scabby knees than anything Kolyat was doing. 

[Vazgen]

I really liked the story content of Samara's mission and the moment at the end where if you pass the rep checks you can decide her fate and possibly recruit a new squadmate. I wish there had been combat in some form but I wanted that for all the missions. Thane's mission, not so much. I think I cared more about Mouse and his scabby knees than anything Kolyat was doing. 

I liked the story of all loyalty missions. But if I were to list them in descending order it would've been

Mordin, Tali, Jack, Kasumi, Zaeed, Garrus, Legion, Miranda, Grunt, Samara, Thane, Jacob