12 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeremy Ray]

So from the series I get that demons are bad and pose risk to mages. DA2 and DAI expanded the idea on spirits and now I get that demons are spirits who go against their purpose. Some spirits such as Cole even appeared to be decent the entire gameplay as opposed to Justice gone Vengeance in DA2.

But what do you think or classify Mythal / Flemeth or Dread Wolf / Solas as? They have been in Thedas longer than any other known Spirit and haven't turned full abomination.

The Elven gods come across to me as spirits, but none of them seem as ordinary spirits either. They are all trapped in the fade and seems that they appear in Thedas in Vessels only? Was the vessel of the original Mythal killed/betrayed. Was she Andraste? The Dread Wolf seems to use Solas as a Vessel, which makes me wonder do any of them have a physical form themselves?

Are there certain levels of spirits / demons beyond classifications? Where the elven Gods just the strongest spirits known in the fade at the time?

[Reznore57]

My thoughts about this are...we can't classify them because they came from a time when Magic/the World/the Elves worked differently.

It seems the "veil" hasn't always existed , the Fade and Thedas were there but I think there were no artificial barrier.

 

So those elves had magic beyond what we know , I imagine their deep connexion to the fade made them immortals , they could be killed but if nothing bad happened well they went on forever.

Mythal was one of the most powerful being back then , she was basically leading the pantheon.

Now from what I've read in codexes , those "elven " gods were basically the best mages ever , they could shapeshift in dragons , (others could do it as well , but it was reserved for the gods , and peons weren't allowed to do that).

Ghilan'nain story is she was a "regular" elf and she ascended to Godhood by  being really good at magic , she created tons of creatures , one goddess Andruil couldn't hunt them all so she strike a bargain , you destroy your monsters , you get a "I'm a God Now" business card.

 

So no the elven gods weren't spirits and they weren't mortals as we know them today.

Spirits can't create creatures on Thedas , even really good mages can't do it.

Shapeshifting is also almost unknown now.

Morrigan learned how to do it but hey she had Mythal as a teacher...

[lyleoffmyspace]

I think the Elven gods are the souls of mortal elves who ascended into a spirit form, from a time before the Veil, able to live beyond death and possess and move between mortal elven bodies.

 

I also believe they may have existed in a time before the Veil, allowing them to use magic extremely easily. When Fen'Harel tricked the gods, he had to create the Veil. 

[BronzTrooper]

Honestly, I think that Mythal, Fen'Harel, and the rest of the Creators are spirits like dragons are lizards, to quote Varric.  It seems like they can body-hop at will (the post-credits scene with Flemeth and Solas is pretty ambiguous) and I suspect that the ritual that bound Mythal to Flemeth is similar in essence to the ritual that joined Anders and Justice, but simply more refined.

 

As for Solas, we really don't know anything about him.  It seems like he isn't a combination of Fen'Harel and himself like Flemeth, but rather the Dread Wolf himself.  Does this mean that when an elf is used as a vessel by one of the Creators they become that Creator?  Or does this mean that the Creators were powerful enough to create their own forms in the days of the Elvhenan?  Both are likely, but considering the Temple of Mythal, I'd think that the latter is more likely than the former.  Solas doesn't have vallaslin and we saw that the Sentinels all had vallaslin on their faces, which implies that the Sentinels/priests in all the Temples had vallaslin as well.

 

Hmm... that gets me thinking.  Mythal was/is the Goddess of Justice and Protection, and the Sentinels in her Temple were all capable warriors.  Dirthamen is the God of Secrets and Knowledge, and based on the journal entries found in his temple, he had priests, not warriors at his temple.  Could each of the temples to the Creators have different kinds of followers protecting them?

 

Mythal; Justice and Protection:  Justice and Protection imply conflict, more-so for the latter.  It makes sense that her followers could have been those who were the law officials (judges, magistrates, etc.) and military might of the ancient Elvhenan, especially considering how despite being out-numbered by the Red Templars/Venatori and being possibly hundreds of years old, they put up one hell of a fight.

 

Dirthamen; Secrets and Knowledge:  Secrets and Knowledge can be related to espionage and magic respectively, so his followers could've been spies and mages.  According to the journal entries found in his temple, the high priest had access to many, many secrets, similar to a spymaster (i.e.: Leliana), and was also a mage.  The priests at his temple basically fell apart after they lost their connection with Dirthamen, so that implies a certain reliance on him and also implies that they weren't exactly trusting of each other.

 

Andruil; The Hunt or, according to Solas, Sacrifice:  Since Solas says that Andruil was the Goddess of Sacrifice rather than the Goddess of the Hunt as the Dalish believe, I will split this between the 2.  If she was the Goddess of the Hunt, then her followers were likely hunters, as would be expected.  However, if she was the Goddess of Sacrifice, they could also have been executioners.

 

Sylaise; The Hearthkeeper:  According to the lore, she was the one who taught the elves how to create fire (probably without using magic), use healing herbs and magic, and how to make rope and thread.  Taking this into account, it would seem that her followers were healers and alchemists.

 

Ghilan'nain; Mother of the Halla:  According to the lore and the codex entry on her in the Temple of Mythal, she was the creator of many different types of animals, so it'd seem that her followers were those who bred and took care of the cattle and mounts.

 

June; The Crafts:  Considering his role in the pantheon, it seems that his followers were the craftsmen of the Elvhenan.

 

Elgar'nan; Vengeance:  As the God of Vengeance, I think that his followers were those who enforced the laws.  As with Andruil, they may have also been executioners, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

Falon'Din; Death and Fortune:  Being the God of Death implies that his followers were those who preformed burial rites for those who died, similar to the Priests of Arkay in The Elder Scrolls series.  As for being the God of Fortune as well, I think that his followers may have also been those who handled funds and, possibly, those who were financially inclined, though the latter isn't likely, imo.

 

And, finally, Fen'Harel; According to Solas, Rebellion:  It is likely that those who wished to rebel against the state of the Elvhenan invoked his name as a rallying cry, but it seems that since Flemeth/Mythal treated him as a friend instead of an enemy and that there was statues of Fen'Harel in the Temple of Mythal, this seems highly unlikely.  It seems that Fen'Harel has been around almost as long as Mythal, so it would be incorrect to say that he came about during the days of the Tevinter Imperium.  Maybe the ancient elvhen rebelled against a race that had enslaved them?  Maybe they had an event similar to the Qunari in which the managed to win instead of being banished?  There's almost no knowledge of the days of the Elvhenan, and absolutely none about the days before, if they exist.  Who would Fen'Harel's followers have been?  I'm not sure.

 

Anyway, you don't have to regard this if you don't want to.  My mind just went wild with this and I had to get it out of my head somehow.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Just a thing to consider, please. Remember the legend how Fen'Harel betrayed both of the Pantheons? He told them to go off the mortal world and then sealed the way back.

 

So basically Fen'Harel CREATED the Weil.

 

If that turns out right there's no suprise Fen'Harel/Solas knows so much about it. And it's logical that he wants the Weil to be reinforced by using those elven artifacts throughout the Thedas. And it becomes understandable why he's so much against using Mythal pond back in the Temple - that way he loses the monopoly on power in Thedas.

[Jester]

Actually Solas speaks about the possibility of there being no Veil with 'dreamy-eyes' so to speak.

Or even nostalgia.

 

And he considers locking elven gods away a 'mistake made by a much younger elf'. 

[BronzTrooper]

Just a thing to consider, please. Remember the legend how Fen'Harel betrayed both of the Pantheons? He told them to go off the mortal world and then sealed the way back.

 

So basically Fen'Harel CREATED the Weil.

 

If that turns out right there's no suprise Fen'Harel/Solas knows so much about it. And it's logical that he wants the Weil to be reinforced by using those elven artifacts throughout the Thedas. And it becomes understandable why he's so much against using Mythal pond back in the Temple - that way he loses the monopoly on power in Thedas.

 

As I said before, Flemeth/Mythal refers to Solas/Fen'Harel as a friend, not an enemy, so that implies that he never betrayed the Creators in the first place.

 

Also, what Jester said.

[herkles]

Snip

 

Interesting analysis though I like to bring up two things.

 

First if the elven religion was a polytheistic religion, then you would have people providing offerings to say mythal when they need justice, then later providing offerings to June so that they can complete their craft. You might have a class of priests that do other things in addition to there temple duties, but if they are polytheistic then you would have people visiting each of the temples for their needs.

 

As for Fen'harel, I wager he is not the god of rebellion but the god of change, a trickster god but also a bringer of change, which rebellion is a type of change.

[Former_Fiend]

She's an old woman who talks too much.

[Unmotivated_Brick]

This body swapping business sure does reminds me of archdemons

[Moirnelithe]

My theories: The Saga for Tyrdda Bright-Axe has a lot of hints in it. I think Flemmeth is the avvar Tyrdda Bright-Axe, and the leaf-eared lover in the poem is Mythal. Morrigan is a pre-ordained descendant of Tyrdda and a dwarven prince. As for the gods themselves, I suspect they are all elves who achieved 'perfection' in Uthenera and are able to shift into dragon form because of their strong connection to the fade. So basically mages who have become spirits, the reverse of Cole.

 

As for why, 1st and 7th stanza as well as the references to the defeated dragon:

 

Spoiler

First Stanza:

Tell the tale of Tyrdda Bright-Axe, mountain maker,
spirit's bride:
Free, her people, forged in fastness, made in
mountains, hardy hide.
Wise in wisdom, calm in counsel, great in gifts her
grateful guests,
Sacrificed she did to spirits, took their teachings,
followed quests.
Bright her axe, unbreaking crystal, stirred to flame
when temper flies,
Gifted from her leaf-eared lover, laughing lady of the
skies.
Bested blades of all who tried,
Maiden, spurning all requests,
Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Dreamer's Eyes.

Second Stanza:

Thelm Gold-Handed, fingers greasy, jeweled rings
with glitter shone,
Took in tribes in times of trouble, fed them fat to
weaken bone.
Warriors great and great in number, sun-kissed
swords to fight his wars,
Drake-scaled shirts their bodies covered, heart-wine
stained the salty shores.
Told his tribes a tale of treasure, over sea to north
it gleamed,
Whispered words to drive the droves to golden city
where he dreamed.
Counseled quick in dreams alone,
Voices wiser man ignores,
Pushed the tribes until they screamed,
Head the dreams and cross the Waking.

Third Stanza:

Honey-tongued was Thelm to Tyrdda, gifts of gold and
steel to start,
Wanted Tyrdda's men for warriors, stolen tribe from
stolen heart.
Cold, her tribe, the Gold-Hand counseled, lean from
winter's wind-knife chill,
"Be my bride and cross the Waking, eat the gilded
city's fill."
Tyrdda Bright-Axe, fraught with fury, crystal axe-
head stirred to blaze,
Heeded well her leaf-eared lover, unabashed by
lustful gaze.
"None shall break my tribe apart,
Not with demon-words that kill,
Fear my fury's fiery rays,
Dream-words lie, their thirst unslaking."

Fourth stanza:

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Thelm Gold-Handed, battle
brought with blade and ax,
Thelm in mail and shields of silver, shining sheen to
turn attacks.
Blade of dragonbone, now blooded, warrior throats
wrung raw with cheers,
Tyrdda stands, her bright ax blazing, leg still
weeping battle-tears.
Bright the ax of leaf-eared lover, laughing lady of
the skies,
"North to warmth, and golden cities,
Whispers speak in Dreamers' ears!"
Silver scorched, the liar flies
On raven's beaks, to dream unwaking.

Fifth stanza:

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, bold and bloodied, took her tribe
from placid plains,
Tribes with blades by farming blunted chased and
fought, their parting pains.
To the mountains, shorn of shelter, snow-slicked
peaks gave wind its bite,
Found a cave to save her tribe, but dragonfire lit the
night.
Beast no blade could break came roaring, mountains
slipped their winter gown,
Tyrdda shouts to leaf-eared lover, "You I chose above
a crown!"
Lightning split the spitting rains,
Sundered over prideful heights,
Dragon fell in rubble down,
Crashed and crushed in earth's mad shaking.

Sixth stanza:

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, proud her tribe, free from fallow
fat below,
Built in battle, fed on fighting, strong from struggle
did they grow.
Deep in caves, the stone-men tribe, Hendir's warriors,
stout and strong,
Met the tribe with axes ready, armor gleaming, sword-
blades long.
Spoke with Tyrdda did her lover, gentle whispers soft
she made,
Dwarven hearts were sundered, simple, still with
honor. Thus she bade:
"Let the tribe the dwarf-men know,
In their caves, where they belong,
Not with battle but with trade,
Hendir's dwarves, give peace unbreaking."

Seventh stanza:

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Dwarf-Friend Chieftain, with her
leaf-eared lover lay,
Woke she did to love-sweat morning, lover gone in
light of day.
Dream-words whispered, spoken soft, still the silence
crushed and crashing,
Dead her tribe, unless a child could keep her line in
warrior fashion.
Aval'var, so named the lover, called "our journey,
yours and mine,"
One day child of Tyrdda's blood, Morrighan'nan, in
strength must shine.
Lover's whispers to obey,
Hendir, dwarf-prince, friend in passion,
Babe produced to serve the line,
The Avvar tribe, her name, our taking.

Eighth stanza:

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Avvar Chieftain, strong her tribe
with dwarven trade,
Battles brought to men and demons, won with wisdom,
fire, and blade.
Then did Tyrdda look to Hendir, dwarf-prince friend,
children-giver,
Took her freedom, Hendir glad, wished her what he
could not give her.
Chose her child to stand as chieftain, after all last
wrongs were righted,
Gifted goods of worldly want, left her tribe no more
benighted.

 

ps. Thelm Gold-handed could be another of the gods, possibly Dirthamen because of the ravens in stanza 4 (or Falon'din since they're tied together). And the people he whispers to could be the predecessors of the current Qunari (going north across the waking sea).

 

edit: If they're spirits it also means they can 'fall' so each 'god' is a personification of duality: justice/vengeance etc. And apparently a demon can have 'aspects' seperate from the whole (fear demon in the fade), which means a spirit can have that as well. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch that this is why Flemeth keeps coming back after dying. Any of the other 'gods' could do the same thing were it not they were sealed away. Which is why they weren't killed but sealed.

 

Just some random thoughts, they could be way off the mark.

[Star Reborn]

She is a 'spirit world'. She is probably in the fade and 'beyond the fade'. What is the 'Stone', or the Maker. A god is a "world" or the earth, the fade is the water of the world, or the mind of that God. Does the world, or so called god think? If it does, it thinks what things it is composed of think. What are spirits? Normal spirits are basic precipitants from Thedas into the fade, which the clear water of the world. The elvhen Gods, or super spirits are most likely precipitants from the fade, with 'beyond the fade'. Mythal is an elvhen god of 'justice', but there are a bunch of spirits of justice who are basic and ignorant.

 

The Maker became what everyone thought he was. Something every knows of, but something no one can ever see, or touch. Look at the black city in the Fade. Thedasians are stupid.

[BronzTrooper]

Interesting analysis though I like to bring up two things.

 

First if the elven religion was a polytheistic religion, then you would have people providing offerings to say mythal when they need justice, then later providing offerings to June so that they can complete their craft. You might have a class of priests that do other things in addition to there temple duties, but if they are polytheistic then you would have people visiting each of the temples for their needs.

 

As for Fen'harel, I wager he is not the god of rebellion but the god of change, a trickster god but also a bringer of change, which rebellion is a type of change.

 

Yeah, that does seem likely.  Hopefully we'll be able to get more insight into the ancient Elvhenan in DA:I's DLCs and/or DA4.

 

Hmm... that does make sense, but Solas does say that Fen'Harel may have simply been the God of Rebellion.  Since he actually is Fen'Harel, I'd prefer to listen to him regarding that.