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To the Bio/EA exec who opted for a DAI console focus 3+ years ago...


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#201
Rizilliant

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I dont understand why anyone here would even make the menial commitment to "not pre order from bioware/EA", after this, the 2nd, or 3rd **** release in a row! Why even consider purchasing anything AT ALL from this careless company?! So many startups are developing quality games, who care like Bioware used too.. They simply arent worth your money, or time.

 

Boycott them altogether.. Imstelling you, if enough people stop buying their products, they WILL change their business practices.. Many of you are probably too young to remember whne this was a common practicee for consumers who were screwed over.. It always has worked, and always will.. This was the last chance i was giving bioware (with EA long in my  rear-view) and there wont be another..


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#202
keyip

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Because that "boycotting" thing worked so well with Bethesda and Oblivion...

 

Hardcore RPG fans need to get it through their head that the AAA companies no longer consider them to be their core audience. Bioware does a good job at entertaining the majority of the people and that's why they continue to sell.

 

To be honest, the ME3 backlash was a big, fat, lot of nothing.



#203
atlantico

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Because that "boycotting" thing worked so well with Bethesda and Oblivion...

 

Hardcore RPG fans need to get it through their head that the AAA companies no longer consider them to be their core audience. Bioware does a good job at entertaining the majority of the people and that's why they continue to sell.

 

To be honest, the ME3 backlash was a big, fat, lot of nothing.

What "hardcore" RPG fan ever played Mass Effect because he was a hardcore RPG fan?

 

DA:O wasn't even a "hardcore" RPG. It's core was somewhat solid, at best. 

 

Regardless, what gives you the insight into Bioware's heart? Are you some kind of a corporate psychologist perhaps that is currently treating Bioware? If so, aren't you breaking your confidentiality with your patient?  

 

If not, are you just making stuff up?


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#204
keyip

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What "hardcore" RPG fan ever played Mass Effect because he was a hardcore RPG fan?

 

 

Mass Effect 1 had considerable RPG features. It pleased those who are looking for deep RPG elements, and continues to be the favourite of the series for them.

 

Regardless, what gives you the insight into Bioware's heart? 

 

It's a simple matter of understanding how many hardcore RPG players there are, and how much a game like Inquisitions cost to make. Take your whining elsewhere, I have little tolerance for it.

 

If not, are you just making stuff up?

 

Nope.


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#205
atlantico

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Mass Effect 1 had considerable RPG features. It pleased those who are looking for deep RPG elements, and continues to be the favourite of the series for them.

 

 

It's a simple matter of understanding how many hardcore RPG players there are, and how much a game like Inquisitions cost to make. Take your whining elsewhere, I have little tolerance for it.

 

 

Nope.

So, now "considerable RPG features" equals "hardcore RPG", I see. Well, that's a twist of the English language which strains the integrity of said language quite a bit farther than it can reasonably bear. 

 

But still you claim to be some sort of a practicing psychologist or possibly Kwisatz Haderach, who can sense the feelings of corporations like the feelings of the sandworms of Dune.

 

Yet without the slightest idea of what "hardcore" RPG means, any insight into Bioware, by backing outlandish assumptions only with pure guesswork and speculation and treating your own opinions as fact. With that kind of rhetoric, well you'd be right about everything always. 

 

Well done! Also, acquaint yourself with the concept of rhetorical questions. I wasn't asking whether you were making this up or not. I was just pointing out that you were.

 

Thanks for the laugh, though!


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#206
keyip

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So, now "considerable RPG features" equals "hardcore RPG", I see. Well, that's a twist of the English language 

 

Good thing I never said it was a hardcore RPG then.

 

But still you claim to be some sort of a practicing psychologist or possibly Kwisatz Haderach, who can sense the feelings of corporations like the feelings of the sandworms of Dune.

 

If you can't figure out the primary objective of a business is to earn money, then that's your own problem. 

 

Yet without the slightest idea of what "hardcore" RPG means, any insight into Bioware, by backing outlandish assumptions only with pure guesswork and speculation and treating your own opinions as fact. 

 

You keep throwing out strawmen like there going out of style. Maybe it's because you don't actually have anything you can say? Seems quite typical.

 

Well done! Also, acquaint yourself with the concept of rhetorical questions.

 

Roger. Please look up comprehension, because it's lacking from your reading skills. Then look up strawman and understand how it differs from logic.



#207
atlantico

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Good thing I never said it was a hardcore RPG then.

 

 

If you can't figure out the primary objective of a business is to earn money, then that's your own problem. 

 

 

You keep throwing out strawmen like there going out of style. Maybe it's because you don't actually have anything you can say? Seems quite typical.

 

 

Roger. Please look up comprehension, because it's lacking from your reading skills. Then look up strawman and understand how it differs from logic.

 

Keep to the topic, please. 



#208
keyip

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Keep to the topic, please. 

 

Good to know you have plenty to say on the matter. Now if you've finished your whine session this thread can get back on track.



#209
atlantico

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Good to know you have plenty to say on the matter. Now if you've finished your whine session this thread can get back on track.

 

I have nothing to say about your ranting. That's not interesting to me nor the topic of this thread. 

 

That's all your last post was, ranting. With a dash of raving. 

 

You backtracked completely on your claims of knowing what "hardcore RPG" players want or desire. A good call. 

 

You then conceded that you have no insight into the decision making of Bioware/EA, just that "companies want to make money". Yeah, that was profound. 

 

There's nothing left of your argument, after you tore it down yourself. 



#210
AlanC9

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What "hardcore" RPG fan ever played Mass Effect because he was a hardcore RPG fan?
 
DA:O wasn't even a "hardcore" RPG. It's core was somewhat solid, at best. 
 
Regardless, what gives you the insight into Bioware's heart? Are you some kind of a corporate psychologist perhaps that is currently treating Bioware? If so, aren't you breaking your confidentiality with your patient?  
 
If not, are you just making stuff up?


Where are you actually going with this? You don't like keyip's guess about Bio's motivation, but what's yours? You say that DA:O wasn't really a hardcore RPG, and neither was ME1. Well, OK, but that's not inconsistent with keyip's position about Bio, and AAA companies generally, thinking that the hardcore crowd are not their audience. It actually supports it.

#211
keyip

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You backtracked completely on your claims of knowing what "hardcore RPG" players want or desire. 

 

I haven't backtracked at all. Once again, you're providing a strawman to argue against.

 

You then conceded that you have no insight into the decision making of Bioware/EA, just that "companies want to make money". Yeah, that was profound. 

 

Once again, if you have little common sense that really isn't my problem.

 

 

There's nothing left of your argument, after you tore it down yourself. 

 

Still haven't googled logic yet... have you?



#212
Dubya75

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I have so many things I can say about this situation, but it all boils down to this: Bioware f*cked up for the last time. I am completely done with this games company and I will NEVER buy another game or anything from them.

The Bioware I that produced DA:O is NOT the Bioware that gave us DAI.

Their focus as a company has shifted completely to this mainstream, glossy, shallow, pretentious RPG game developer who apparently thinks it is perfectly OK to sell loyal fans a bunch of lies in order to make sales.

These people have now become so arrogant by their apparent triumph with DAI that they no longer even communicate with their fans, they can't admit they messed up with the PC version, they are too incompetent to properly patch the game even after almost 2 MONTHS?!

Look how Ubisoft got their sh*t together. They even apologised to fans.

But Bioware? Nope. Nothing.

 

This was the most expensive game I've ever bought and I still had to use Cheat Engine just to make a core mechanic (like walk toggle) work while having to completely avoid other mechanics (such as tac cam) because they simply don't work???

 

As far as I'm concerned, this company can go to hell and their raped franchise with them. I'm done.


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#213
Brogan

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Considering only 7% of gamers play RPGs, probably not nearly as many as you think.

 

Furthermore the PC version of the game is actually regarded as pretty decent on other sites, so once again the number of angry people aren't nearly as many as you wish.

 

The sale figures of Inquisition were supposed to nosedive after ME3 and DA2 and all that's happening is sales are increasing. Do you think that if you make enough nonsense doom and gloom prediction, one of them have to come true?

 

Would you provide some proof to these stats you are making up.  Thanks.

 

And I meant positive reviews of the mouse and keyboard controls, not pc version with controller plugged in (that was kind of the whole point of the thread).  If you can find proof of that, I'd like to see it as well.



#214
atlantico

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Where are you actually going with this? You don't like keyip's guess about Bio's motivation, but what's yours? You say that DA:O wasn't really a hardcore RPG, and neither was ME1. Well, OK, but that's not inconsistent with keyip's position about Bio, and AAA companies generally, thinking that the hardcore crowd are not their audience. It actually supports it.

 

My guess is that Bioware and specifically the team which developed DA:I made the best game they could make with the time and resources they had and I think applying a marketing strategy to the game's flaws is highly questionable. 

 

I have no idea what "hardcore RPG" players want, at a guess, I'd say they want to play AD&D 2ed with their friends. 



#215
keyip

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Would you provide some proof to these stats you are making up.  Thanks.

 

Which ones? The one about the PC version of the game being thought highly of elsewhere can be found on most user review sites. Gamefaq users, for example, score the PC version an 8. More evidence can be seen if you look at the PC Reader's Choice Game Of The Year award it won on Gamespot. Reddit is also fairly fine with the issues.

 

Evidence that it that the game keeps increasing in sales can be found on this very forum, when the Bioware dev stated that in the first week Inquisition outsold Origins and DA2 by a large margin. Sales haven't slowed as much either.

 

As for the 7% of gamers are RPGs, unfortunately I misrepresented the stat from memory. It was 7% of games sold are RPGs in the US (less if you factor in the MMORPGs obviously included in this statistic.) Different stats but they tell you the same sort of thing, RPGs aren't popular with gamers... unless you're Skyrim. http://www.statista....-2009-by-genre/

 

And I meant positive reviews of the mouse and keyboard controls, not pc version with controller plugged in (that was kind of the whole point of the thread).  If you can find proof of that, I'd like to see it as well.

 

Unfortunately you don't get to decide how people play on the PC. If people are perfectly happy playing on the PC with a controller, then they obviously won't be getting scammed. At the end of the day only on here, and the Metacritic site, do I see a whole lot of people unhappy with the PC version of the game.


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#216
keyip

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I have no idea what "hardcore RPG" players want, at a guess, I'd say they want to play AD&D 2ed with their friends. 

 

Credit for this next quote goes to HiddenX of the RPGWatch forums.

 

 

The CRPG Analyzer (Version 1.00)

The three core categories Character DevelopmentExploration and Story that need to be applied and quantified to determine if an interactive computerized game can be labeled as a Computer Role Playing Game (hereafter referred to as CRPG) are listed to show the necessary component elements and qualifying factors. 
Any proposed or purported CRPG must contain all three core categories and their essential necessary Must Have conditions fulfilled to achieve the (minimal) CRPG status.

These core categories must maintain some form of progressive nature that will improve from when the game starts and leads to a conclusive game ending.

Each core category and the auxiliary category Combat also have related Should Have conditions; the reviewer should make a comment if a Should Have condition is not fulfilled.

So we have these scenarios to reflect the broadness of the genre:

  • At least one Must Have condition is violated => the game is not a CRPG.
  • All Must Have conditions are fulfilled => the game is at least CRPG'ish or a CRPG light.
  • All Must Have and some Should Haves conditions are fulfilled => the game is a CRPG that needs to be further qualified with (subgenre) tags and/or reviewer comments.
  • If all necessary Must Have and all Should Have conditions are fulfilled there's no further discussion necessary => the game is a true CRPG.

Optional elements are listed in the Nice to Have (NtH) list. With it you get precise information which optional CRPG elements are implemented in the game. A general game info questionnaire is added too, to do some rating.


I. The Checklist

Character Development
Describes ways to create, change or enhance your characters in order to increase their effectiveness in the game.

  • Must Have
    C1: you can control and role-play one (=Avatar) or more (=Party) unique characters (-> not only uniform units)
    C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats and/or abilities (-> e.g. through an in game value (usually exp. points) gained by quests, exploration, conversation, combat, …)
    C3: Checks against character stats and/or character abilities/skills are necessary to make progress and finish the game
    C4: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
  • Should Have
    C5: you can create your characters
    C6: the player needs preplanning for the development of the character(s)
    C7: the primary means of problem solving, gameworld interaction and overcoming challenges is the tactical use of character/party skills/abilities (-> the player's physical coordination skills are secondary)

Exploration
Includes how you can move through the game world, as well as everything you can find, see, manipulate or interact with, like locations, items and other objects.

  • Must Have
    E1: your character(s) can interact with the gameworld and find new locations by exploring.
    E2: your character(s) can find items that can be collected in an inventory (-> there have to be more item types than quest items, weapons, ammunition and consumable stat boosters.)
    E3: your character(s) can find information sources (-> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info)
  • Should Have
    E4: there are NPCs in the game
    E5: you can choose a path (-> there is at least some branching)
    E6: your character(s) can manipulate the game world in some way (-> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …)
    E7: the gameworld can affect your character(s) (-> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)
    E8: there are initially inaccessible areas in the gameworld that can only be reached by enhancing your characters' abilities, solving quests or puzzles (-> e.g. unlock locked areas, overcome obstacles, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …)

Story
Concerns all narrative elements like setting, lore, plot, characters, dialogue, quests, descriptions, storyline(s) and similar, including how you can interact with them.

  • Must Have
    S1: your character(s) can get information from information sources (-> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
    S2: your character(s) can follow quests (-> there is at least one main quest)
    S3: your character(s) can progress through connected events and play their role
  • Should Have
    S4: the story is influenced by your decisions and your characters' actions and stats/abilities/skills.
    S5: your character(s) can interact with information sources (-> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …)
    S6: your character(s) can make choices in those interactions
    S7: at least some of these choices have consequences
    S8: advancing in the story requires thinking of the player (-> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …)

Combat
Describes how combat (or more general: conflict resolving) corresponds with elements of Character Development, Exploration and Story.

  • Should Have
    F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (-> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …)
    F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls)
    F3: Combat should provide some challenge (-> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible)

Hints:

  • A game that fulfills conditions in the categories Character and Exploration but not in Story could be a Dungeon Crawler or a Rogue-Like.
  • A game that fulfills conditions in the categories Exploration and Story but not in Character could be an Adventure game, a Strategy game or a Shooter.
  • A game that fulfills conditions in the categories Character and Story but not in Exploration could be a Simulation game or a Linear CRPG.

III. (Optional) Nice to Have: 115/115 = 100%

 

i. Character Development (33/33 = 100%)

 

1. Choice (13/13)

  1. You can name your characters.
  2. You can choose a gender.
  3. You can choose looks or voice.
  4. You can choose or create through play your own class, profession or race.
  5. You can choose traits, alignment or disposition.
  6. You can choose abilities.
  7. You can choose spells.
  8. You can modify primary stats.
  9. Lots of different equipment is available.
  10. Lots of different spells or abilities are available.
  11. Abilities can unlock or block others or branch.
  12. Character classes or development paths can be changed during the game.
  13. You can have pets as party members.

2. Interdependence (6/6)


  1. (Story) Character stats can change NPC disposition towards the PC.
  2. (Story) Stats, abilities or spells can affect available dialogue options.
  3. (Story) Unique items are in the game or can be made.
  4. (Exploration) Stats, abilities or spells can affect available paths through the game world.
  5. (Exploration) Stats, abilities or spells can affect the amount of things you can see, find or know in the world.
  6. (Combat) Combat can be avoided due to stats (-> e.g. enemies flee.)

3. Interactivity (6/6)


  1. You can create combos with spells or abilities.
  2. Your character's stats can be modified by using spells or abilities.
  3. Your character's afflictions can be cured by using spells or abilities.
  4. You can rest or sleep.
  5. Stats can limit in some way what you can equip or carry.
  6. You can control party members or pets like your main character.

4. Immersion (8/8)


  1. You need to specialize (-> can't have everything.)
  2. You can create or choose a background story for your character.
  3. You can tweak your character lots of times over the whole game.
  4. You can wear normal clothes, not only armor.
  5. Factions provide prizes for your deeds (-> e.g. houses, medals, ranks, …)
  6. Magic is in the game in some form.
  7. Your characters can be afflicted with negative status effects (-> e.g. diseases, fatigue, etc.)
  8. Your characters can eat or drink.

ii. Exploration (29/29 = 100%)

 

1. Choice (4/4)

  1. You can follow different paths to reach a goal.
  2. You can reasonably go where you want.
  3. You can return to previously visited locations.
  4. There are few artificial borders, rare level loading.

2. Interdependence (6/6)


  1. (Character) Char development choices can affect available paths through the game world.
  2. (Character) Char development choices can affect the amount of things you can see, find or know in the world.
  3. (Story) You can find and recruit new party members or tame pets.
  4. (Story) Exploring off the beaten path yields rewards, e.g. optional quests, secrets or interesting locations.
  5. (Story) You can visit and make use of social locations (-> e.g. taverns, inns, marketplaces).
  6. (Combat) Combat can be avoided through sneaking or gameworld manipulation.

3. Interactivity (10/10)


  1. You can collect items (-> there is an inventory.)
  2. You can trade items for currency and better equipment.
  3. You can interact with items.
  4. You can break or destroy items.
  5. You can repair items.
  6. You can move items.
  7. You can combine or disaggregate items.
  8. You can gather pieces of flora or fauna for later use.
  9. You can craft equipment, spells or items (e.g. alchemy).
  10. Inventory size is limited.

4. Immersion (9/9)


  1. There is a place you can call home.
  2. You can explore lots of unique, beautiful and interesting locations.
  3. Locations can evolve or change (-> e.g. town / destroyed town)
  4. There are non-hostile creatures (-> e.g. wildlife)
  5. Types of creatures make sense in the area they are encountered in.
  6. Creatures are wandering persistently (-> no random encounters).
  7. Looting makes sense (no shield on a dead wolf.)
  8. Time is measured (-> e.g. there is a day/night cycle).
  9. Time affects the game world (-> e.g. some things are only available at night).

iii. Story (29/29 = 100%)

 

1. Choice (6/6)

  1. You can reasonably do what you want when you want to do it (-> quest order doesn't matter much.)
  2. Some quests depend on each other.
  3. Some quests rule others out.
  4. Quests can be solved in more than one way.
  5. You can join factions, though not all at the same time.
  6. You can make moral choices (or romance choices).

2. Interdependence (7/7)


  1. (Character) Character stats can change NPC disposition towards the PC.
  2. (Character) Char development choices can affect available dialogue options.
  3. (Character) Unique items are in the game or can be made.
  4. (Exploration) You can find and recruit new party members or tame pets.
  5. (Exploration) Exploring off the beaten path yields rewards, e.g. optional quests, secrets or interesting locations.
  6. (Exploration) You can visit and make use of social locations (-> e.g. taverns, inns, marketplaces).
  7. (Combat) Combat can be avoided through dialogue.

3. Interactivity (6/6)


  1. Dialogue is fleshed out (-> there are multiple options in one conversation).
  2. There is more than one game ending.
  3. You can have conversations with party members or take care of pets.
  4. There are many side quests.
  5. State of the game changes in accordance with the player's actions.
  6. You can solve or create conflicts between factions.

4. Immersion (10/10)


  1. Lore is provided (-> context, faction rules, laws, history, …)
  2. There are different factions (races, groups, guilds).
  3. NPCs or party members are well developed (-> expansive background stories, etc.)
  4. NPCs or party members interact with each other.
  5. NPCs have schedules.
  6. There are surprises and twists.
  7. The storyline is character-driven (-> character development within the narrative.)
  8. There is a proper ending or sense of closure.
  9. There are memorable antagonists.
  10. Your main character is defined.

iv. Combat (Meta) (24/24 = 100%)

 

1. Character Development (9/9)

  1. Combat can be avoided due to stats (-> e.g. enemies flee).
  2. You can control at least six characters.
  3. Your characters are specialized (-> different battlefield roles).
  4. Enemies are specialized (-> require different tactics.)
  5. Resource management is necessary.
  6. Units have multiple attack options.
  7. Delayed attacks are possible (-> counterattacks, attacks of opportunity, etc.)
  8. Movement-focused special abilities are available.
  9. Units have multiple resistance options (-> e.g. armor, elemental resistance, etc.)

2. Exploration (9/9)


  1. Combat can be avoided through sneaking or gameworld manipulation.
  2. You can get a good sense of space (-> e.g. there is a grid.)
  3. Combat can start at variable distances.
  4. Directional facing plays a role (-> e.g. more damage from behind, flanking).
  5. Terrain is variable (-> e.g. natural choke points, cover, combat bonuses).
  6. Terrain can be manipulated (-> e.g. you can create barriers).
  7. There are elevation effects (-> e.g. combat bonuses from higher grounds.)
  8. There can be zones or items on the battlefield that reward units who get there in time.
  9. There can be Zones of Danger on the battlefield (-> e.g. environmental damage).

3. Story (6/6)


  1. Combat can be avoided through dialogue.
  2. Combat can have different win scenarios (-> e.g. keep NPC alive, defend town).
  3. Combat can have side objectives aside from "win/loss".
  4. Characters don't die immediately but can be revived during combat.
  5. Decisions on the battlefield have character development consequences.
  6. There are memorable bosses.

Explanations:
C1: you can control and role-play one (=Avatar) or more (=Party) unique characters (-> not only uniform units) 
This is a necessary condition for roleplaying games. Contrary to pure strategy games your characters are named and unique and are not undistinguishable uniform units.

C2: you can progressively develop your characters' stats and/or abilities (-> e.g. through an in game value (usually exp. points) gained by quests, exploration, conversation, combat …)
Character progression is another necessary element. Some very rare games like Megatraveller features character progression only during the character creation process.

C3: Checks against character stats and/or character abilities/skills are necessary to make progress and finish the game
Checks against stats and skills levels during dialog combat and skill using etc. are essential and a typical feature of role playing games.

C4: you can equip and enhance your characters with items you acquire
This is another necessary condition that all CRPGs have to implement.
It would be theoretically possible to create a CRPG that doesn’t implement some kind of equipment, but I have yet to see one. The absence of equipment could be an indicator for an Adventure game. Adventure games feature often only an inventory for puzzle items.


C5: you can create your characters
This Should Have condition is important, but not necessary. Pre-created characters like in Gothic for example are quite common nowadays.

C6: the player needs preplanning for the development of the character(s)
This is another important Should Have condition that reflects the strategic aspect of character creation, progression and party mix planning.

C7: the primary means of problem solving, gameworld interaction and overcoming challenges is the tactical use of character/party skills/abilities (-> the player's physical coordination skills are secondary)
A game that doesn’t fulfill this condition is probably a more action oriented game or a shooter where the skills of the player are more important than the skills of the in-game characters.

E1: your character(s) can interact with the gameworld and find new locations by exploring.
This simple necessary condition excludes games that have no kind of exploration or gameworld interaction.

E2: your character(s) can find items that can be collected in an inventory (-> there have to be more item types than quest items, weapons, ammunition and consumable stat boosters.)
This condition is necessary to exclude Adventure games and pure Shooters. Theoretically someone could construct a CRPG without an inventory, but this would be a very rare and very special CRPG, so this is a Must Have element.

E3: your character(s) can find information sources (-> e.g. NPCs, entities, objects that provide info)
A CRPG without the chance to find any information source at all is not possible.

E4: there are NPCs in the game
This is only a Should Have condition, because especially early dungeon crawlers have often no NPCs in the game.

E5: you can choose a path (-> there is at least some branching)
You can create a linear CRPG, a “game on rails” with close to no exploring like Banner Saga, so this is only a Should Have condition.

E6: your character(s) can manipulate the game world in some way (-> e.g. pull levers, push buttons, open chests, …)
It is rare to find a CRPG without any gameworld manipulation, but possible.

E7: the gameworld can affect your character(s) (-> e.g. weather, traps, closed doors, poisoned areas, …)
Not all CRPGs can affect your characters with gameworld conditions, so this is only a Should Have element.

E8: there are initially inaccessible areas in the gameworld that can only be reached by enhancing your characters' abilities, solving quests or puzzles (-> e.g. unlock locked areas, overcome obstacles, repair bridges, dispel barriers, …) 
Exploring should depend on your character abilities, too.

S1: your character(s) can get information from information sources (-> e.g. hints, goals, quests, skills, spells, training, …)
S1 is closely related to E3. After finding an information source you have to able to get information from there.

S2: your character(s) can follow quests (-> there is at least one main quest)
Does a CRPG exist without a quest at all? No, this would be a sandbox or simulation game.

S3: your character(s) can progress through connected events and play their role
At least in some ways the in-game character must be able to stay in his role when he encounters game events. Otherwise his chosen role would be meaningless.

S4: the story is influenced by your decisions and your characters' actions and stats/abilities/skills.
A two part Should Have condition. The second part is mandatory for pen&paper role-playing games; unfortunately we can’t demand it for computer role-playing games.

S5: your character(s) can interact with information sources (-> e.g. NPC conversation, riddle statue question, …)
Dialog/Interaction is mandatory for most modern CRPGs, but was not common in older Dungeon Crawlers, so this is only a Should Have condition.

S6: your character(s) can make choices in those interactions
Choices should be in a CRPG – not every CRPG features this.

S7: at least some of these choices have consequences
Consequences should be in a CRPG, too – not every CRPG features this.

S8: advancing in the story requires thinking of the player (-> e.g. irreversible choices, moral dilemma, riddles, …)
The player has to use his brain to advance through the story. Mindless Hack&Slay games or pure sandbox games in which every action is reversible are detected here.

F1: Combat efficiency is in some way tied to character stats or abilities (-> e.g. amount of damage, chance to hit, weapon access, …)
Combat that is not tied to stats and skills, indicates often a Shooter or a simple fighting game that relies only on the player’s twitch skills. 

F2: Combat works with some random elements (game internal dice rolls)
Almost all CRPGs work with some kind of internal dice rolls or probability functions based on stats.

F3: Combat should provide some challenge (-> e.g. preparing, use of tactics or environment possible)
Another Should Have condition that reflects that in most CRPGs you have to use some kind of tactics to survive battles.

 

 

http://www.rpgwatch....#post1061254692



#217
wolfhowwl

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Gatt9? Wow... you're a blast from the past.

I'm not sure what your point is there. Are you saying that DAI and Skyrim could have sold a lot better if they'd been less mass-marketized, making up on PC what they'd lose on consoles? Is this big PC market you've been talking about for years really a bunch of complexity fans? That hasn't been my impression of all the F2P stuff that's been a real growth driver on PC. I don't know enough about MOBAs to know what their fans would want from a Dragon Age game, or if they'd have any interest at all.

 
Yeah, that is where the PC gaming elitists get tripped up. There isn't some vast ignored audience wanting a Morrowind instead of a Skyrim, the money is coming from people they probably consider casuals dicking around in F2P grindfest MMOs and League of Legends. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stats they trot out even included Facebook-tier garbage to pad the revenue numbers. The world of AAA "core" titles still revolves around consoles and the "console peasants" will continue to be the developer's priority.
 
Of course a nice thing about PC gaming is that there are niche titles catering to a hardcore minority like Shadowrun: Dragonfall and Divinity: Original Sin. If this was something I cared about I think I would rather be playing those games than obsessing like a jilted lover over the BioWares and Bethesdas that have long ago moved on from making games for me.
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#218
hong

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Credit for this next quote goes to HiddenX of the RPGWatch forums.

(snip)

 
 
o.O

Never in the field of human endeavour has so much effort been expended by so few for so little return.

#219
Brogan

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Which ones? The one about the PC version of the game being thought highly of elsewhere can be found on most user review sites. Gamefaq users, for example, score the PC version an 8. More evidence can be seen if you look at the PC Reader's Choice Game Of The Year award it won on Gamespot. Reddit is also fairly fine with the issues.
 
Evidence that it that the game keeps increasing in sales can be found on this very forum, when the Bioware dev stated that in the first week Inquisition outsold Origins and DA2 by a large margin. Sales haven't slowed as much either.
 
As for the 7% of gamers are RPGs, unfortunately I misrepresented the stat from memory. It was 7% of games sold are RPGs in the US (less if you factor in the MMORPGs obviously included in this statistic.) Different stats but they tell you the same sort of thing, RPGs aren't popular with gamers... unless you're Skyrim. http://www.statista....-2009-by-genre/
 

 
Unfortunately you don't get to decide how people play on the PC. If people are perfectly happy playing on the PC with a controller, then they obviously won't be getting scammed. At the end of the day only on here, and the Metacritic site, do I see a whole lot of people unhappy with the PC version of the game.


You're giving us results from sites that reviewed the controller UI of the game. Are you still not getting the point of the thread?

#220
abaris

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Yeah, that is where the PC gaming elitists get tripped up. There isn't some vast ignored audience wanting a Morrowind instead of a Skyrim.

 

You're missing the point by a mile. There isn't much of a difference between Morrowind and Skyrim when it comes to gameplay, story and quests. The last three Elder Scrolls games didn't change at all. They added and changed a few mechanics and that's it. Compare that to the Dragon Age series which isn't even recognisable to be the same series.


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#221
keyip

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You're missing the point by a mile. There isn't much of a difference between Morrowind and Skyrim when it comes to gameplay, story and quests. The last three Elder Scrolls games didn't change at all. 

 

Depends on your point of view, actually. In Morrowind you swung your sword with the push of a button, but whether you connected was dependant on your stats. So you'd aim at the enemy but unless you had points in your skill, you WILL miss a lot. Skyrim has changed to be much more action based.

 

So about the gameplay, Morrowind was quite a solid CRPG whereas Skyrim is almost an action game.



#222
atlantico

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Credit for this next quote goes to HiddenX of the RPGWatch forums.

 

 

 

 

http://www.rpgwatch....#post1061254692

What is your point? That you can quote people on the intarwebs?


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#223
Rannik

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It isn't really about being a console port. Mass Effect 3 is surely such, but it has sane controls.

 

>press "Spacebar" to absolutely everything

>sane controls

 

HzHXO4k.png



#224
Razir-Samus

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>press "Spacebar" to absolutely everything

>sane controls

 

HzHXO4k.png

nice hyperbole! :rolleyes:



#225
Lady Mutare

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@Atlantico...THACO rules


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