30 réponses à ce sujet

[omgodzilla]

DAI didn't go anywhere close to the same level as Mass Effect in terms of how brutal and ruthless the player was allowed to be. Nothing in that game could compare to shooting Mordin, Falere, Shiala, killing the Rachni Queen, leaving David with Dr. Archer etc. I hope they don't go the same route with the next Mass Effect. Mass Effect 2 was by far the best game when it came to the amount and variety of renegade options you had at your disposal. I'd prefer something like that again. I'm not asking for permission to kick puppies or to just be a dick for no reason but atleast let us be the "results at all costs" type of guy/girl. The decision of shooting Mordin was a brilliant example of what renegade should be. Not evil, but willing to sacrifice important things if it means getting the job done. And the way Shepard reacted to that decision was also amazing. He showed remorse and guilt instead of going "muhahaha, I'm a dick!". It made him so human and realistic. At the same time though, we should definitely be allowed to be brutal and cold to our enemies. Mass Effect 2 did this brilliantly. Look at all those interrupts, you could snap people's necks, burn Krogan warlords alive, push people out of windows, shoot corrupt politicians who are held hostage, and torture criminals. Bring back that level of brutality in the next Mass Effect please.

[Vazgen]

Personally, I prefer ME3 approach more. 

I always felt like starring in a Schwarzenegger movie when playing Mass Effect 2. "I got better", "How about goodbye?"...

[ME_Fan]

The best one;

 

'You're working too hard.'

[SwobyJ]

I think 'ME4' Renegade (if there will be Renegade) may be devised to be about as compelling for fans as Paragon was in ME1-3 (especially 2-3).

[KrrKs]

I always felt like starring in a Schwarzenegger movie when playing Mass Effect 2.

And that is ... bad?!

 

 

"How about goodbye?"...

That was the best Interrupt ever! Followed by "Tell your friends we are coming for them!"

 

But yeah, ME3 did it pretty good, it just did not have that many renegade actions against enemies (which always were the Schwarzenegger ones).

 

Edit: Renegade (non persuasive) dialogue options should imo stay just cold, as one could expect from a ruthless character. But the Interrupts deserve the cheesy lines.

[dreamgazer]

As a mage, you could punish another arrogant magic-user--who thought he'd receive praise in the afterlife if he were killed--with making them a brainwashed husk. You could also claim the heads of most other prisoners, or send them to worse forms of (temporary) living punishment.

Can't really say I agree.

[Iakus]

I'll take DAI's options over ME3's "emotionally fragile/p*ssed off" binary choices with little input from the player.

[SNascimento]

All they have to do is look back to ME2. That game had the best narrative system of any Bioware game. Multiple dialogue options + interrupts = glory. 

[dreamgazer]

All they have to do is look back to ME2. That game had the best narrative system of any Bioware game. Multiple dialogue options + interrupts = glory.

Can't say I agree with that either, since ME2 actively rewards the player for color-coded, partisan decision-making. ME3's rep system is more versatile in that regard.

[Daemul]

ME3's renegade can come back, but ME1 and ME2's renegade can stay in the hole Bioware threw them in. 

[Vazgen]

And that is ... bad?!

 

That was the best Interrupt ever! Followed by "Tell your friends we are coming for them!"

 

But yeah, ME3 did it pretty good, it just did not have that many renegade actions against enemies (which always were the Schwarzenegger ones).

 

Edit: Renegade (non persuasive) dialogue options should imo stay just cold, as one could expect from a ruthless character. But the Interrupts deserve the cheesy lines.

I like watching Schwarzenegger movies and love those short one-liners in his performance. But in roleplaying game it limits roleplay opportunities. My tech geek Engineer would not have accomplished anything without his squadmates and he would be the first to admit it. However, in ME2 he becomes a space version of Dirty Harry which is not even close to his personality. I liked ME3 approach better when it took two possible reactions to a war and built the dialogue on them, resulting in what Iakus referred to as "emotionally fragile/p*ssed off". It did not enforce character "badassery", so to speak. 

To be fair though, a lot of those options are used during Renegade interrupts so it is possible to avoid the most of them. Still, there are forced options as well and it is a mistake IMO.

[berrieh]

I think DAI's ruthless options are pretty much on par with Mass Effect's Renegade already, actually - not nearly as dark as DAO or anything, but Mass Effect never really was. 

 

How is killing the Rachni Queen even evil? It's questionable, but it's just kind of pragmatic. Shiala was kind of evil and could cause problems again. Basically everyone you can kill in ME is a potential threat. You're just eliminating threats. Renegade in ME ranges from ruthless/pragmatic to dickish, not really evil. If you can't convince Mordin, shooting him in the back is just something that needs to be done. I feel like DAI is just less personal than any of the ME games have been (all three, because they are a trilogy based around the pivotal character of Shepard are extremely personal, growing more so the longer you play your Shep). But I have similar pragmatic, ruthless, selfish, vengeful, cruel style options. Less brash, though, for sure. 

 

At any rate, I hope Renegade stays true to the spirit of the other Mass Effect games, which don't exactly feel the same as the Dragon Age game to me anyway (big fan of both though). I do hope they improve the system and continue to evolve it in interesting ways, but I hope they keep the spirit of Renegade as Renegade (which truly isn't evil as much as it's "Ends justify the means, and don't mess with me or I'll **** you up"). 

[Seishoujyo]

In short Bioware let us be Jack Bauer once again in Me4.

 

I agree with TC, DAI is too soft.

[omgodzilla]

As a mage, you could punish another arrogant magic-user--who thought he'd receive praise in the afterlife if he were killed--with making them a brainwashed husk. You could also claim the heads of most other prisoners, or send them to worse forms of (temporary) living punishment.

Can't really say I agree.

 

You can only make someone tranquil as a mage. That's a big restriction for me since I tend to play as melee classes. Beheading are nice when they occur but they're pretty rare. And generally, the people you judge don't even show much emotion. They're usually just like "meh whatever"". When you send the goat thrower to the gibbet, he laughs. When you sentence Florriane to be a jester, she's like "whatever, I'm already a laughing stock". When you behead Erimond, he says "yes! do it! that's what I want!". When you behead the mayor, he basically says "I deserve this". Only Mistress Poulin (don't know if I spelled that right) shows any emotion upon being sentenced to death. The rest don't really care much. There's no fear. That's why it doesn't feel ruthless. The way the scene is presented is very important. This is why the renegade in Mass Effect is much more ruthless. In Mass Effect, Shepard can actually intimidate and strike fear into his enemies. The inquisitor rarely ever does that. He rarely ever comes across as being intimidating. The only major exception I can think of is when you kick Sera out of the inquisition when you get alot of disapporval with her. You basically tell her to run or die. I wish there were more scenes like that. 

 

Mass Effect 2 has DAI beat in terms of the sheer quantity and variety of ruthless option available. DAI doesn't even come close. Lets not even pretend that DAI has anything more ruthless than some of the choices you can make in any of the Mass Effect games. Like shooting Mordin and sabotaging the genophage in ME3. There were some very good reasons to do it but when you pick this option, you kill one of your close friends and become an accomplice in the genocide of an entire species (kinda). You can cause the Rachni to go extinct. You can shoot unarmed prisoners and hostages without any sort of trial in Mass Effect 1 and 2. You can beat, torture and kill your enemies in VERY gruesome ways. Like the scene where you burn the Krogan alive  or push that one guy out of the window in ME2. What does DAI have that can compare to that? A few beheadings? A tranquility option that's restricted to only one class? Sounds like the PG-13 version of DAO... 

[omgodzilla]

I think DAI's ruthless options are pretty much on par with Mass Effect's Renegade already, actually - not nearly as dark as DAO or anything, but Mass Effect never really was. 

 

How is killing the Rachni Queen even evil? It's questionable, but it's just kind of pragmatic. Shiala was kind of evil and could cause problems again. Basically everyone you can kill in ME is a potential threat. You're just eliminating threats. Renegade in ME ranges from ruthless/pragmatic to dickish, not really evil. If you can't convince Mordin, shooting him in the back is just something that needs to be done. I feel like DAI is just less personal than any of the ME games have been (all three, because they are a trilogy based around the pivotal character of Shepard are extremely personal, growing more so the longer you play your Shep). But I have similar pragmatic, ruthless, selfish, vengeful, cruel style options. Less brash, though, for sure. 

 

At any rate, I hope Renegade stays true to the spirit of the other Mass Effect games, which don't exactly feel the same as the Dragon Age game to me anyway (big fan of both though). I do hope they improve the system and continue to evolve it in interesting ways, but I hope they keep the spirit of Renegade as Renegade (which truly isn't evil as much as it's "Ends justify the means, and don't mess with me or I'll **** you up"). 

 

I never said Renegade Shepard was evil. I said he was more ruthless than the inquisitor. I agree that none of the choices are evil (although, I still can't justify killing Samara) but they're all way more ruthless than the choices you are given as the inquisitor. Causing the genocide of an entire species and shooting your buddy sounds way more brutal than anything you can do in DAI... 

[omgodzilla]

Can't say I agree with that either, since ME2 actively rewards the player for color-coded, partisan decision-making. ME3's rep system is more versatile in that regard.

 

What's more important than the rep system are the actual choices and interrupts you are given as a renegade and that is where ME2 wins over ME3. ME3 was better than DAI but it was still lacking in the amount and variety of ruthless things you could do. Lets not even compare the interrupts. ME2's interrupts were exponentially better. It helps that they outnumber the ME3 interrupts by quite a bit. I don't know why Bioware scaled back on the interrupts in ME3. Even some of the paragon interrupts in ME2 were badass (like the one where you yell at the cop and volus on the citadel).  In ME3, the only paragon interrupts you get are handshakes and brofist. The only good ones were in the scene where you spar with Vega. I agree that the reputation system was better in ME3 but the actual renegade options were way more entertaining in ME2.

[omgodzilla]

ME3's renegade can come back, but ME1 and ME2's renegade can stay in the hole Bioware threw them in. 

 

I agree that the ME1 and ME2 renegade was too much of a dick to his squadmates but he was also more intimidating and threatening to his enemies. I want the ME2 interrupts, threats, renegade persuasions, and execution scenes back. ME3's renegade interrupts weren't nearly as entertaining as the ones in ME2. 

[spinachdiaper]

Renegade/Paragon/Like/Dislike needs to get thrown out an airlock. All that there should be is choices. If you want to drop a character you should just get rid of them instead of running up a disapproval rating to get them to shove off. No more squad/companion popularity contests and artificial drama.

[KaiserShep]

Renegade/Paragon/Like/Dislike needs to get thrown out an airlock. All that there should be is choices. If you want to drop a character you should just get rid of them instead of running up a disapproval rating to get them to shove off. No more squad/companion popularity contests and artificial drama.

I agree about the Renegade and Paragon system, but I couldn't disagree more about Approval, mainly because the companions are a big part of these games, but Mass Effect can feel lacking in that companions lack reactivity to the decisions you make, even if those decisions are stupid-evil. Certain characters may be scripted to be your PC's best friend, no matter how racist or violent you choose to be. Their lines of dialogue won't change no matter how little your character's morality may align with theirs, and I consider this to be one of Mass Effect's greatest weaknesses. Garrus is one of my favorite characters, but the only way to not have him act like he's your close buddy is basically to have him die in ME2. I'd love to see a Garrus that kind of resents Shepard and disagrees. He may follow orders because that's what he does, but if he disapproves of what you do, he just won't act like he's your friend or insist on having a drink with you or something. I think characters should have a variety of opinions of the protagonist in general based on the decisions you make. It's part of what makes them more believable.

[spinachdiaper]

I agree about the Renegade and Paragon system, but I couldn't disagree more about Approval, mainly because the companions are a big part of these games, but Mass Effect can feel lacking in that companions lack reactivity to the decisions you make, even if those decisions are stupid-evil. Certain characters may be scripted to be your PC's best friend, no matter how racist or violent you choose to be. Their lines of dialogue won't change no matter how little your character's morality may align with theirs, and I consider this to be one of Mass Effect's greatest weaknesses. Garrus is one of my favorite characters, but the only way to not have him act like he's your close buddy is basically to have him die in ME2. I'd love to see a Garrus that kind of resents Shepard and disagrees. He may follow orders because that's what he does, but if he disapproves of what you do, he just won't act like he's your friend or insist on having a drink with you or something. I think characters should have a variety of opinions of the protagonist in general based on the decisions you make. It's part of what makes them more believable.

My problem is that companion aproval has become a silly dance that anyone can circumvent. You talk to one companion and side with all their prefered options so that later if you nuke the village they grew up in they only "greatly disprove" and just do a few side quests later with them and get outcomes they like and your in the clear. Not to overlook companion characters who should of been attempting to slit each others throat's since they are so diametrically opposed it's really crazy that they work together at all. I don't see anything wrong with exploring companions' backstories and helping them make their own decisons not this I choose who they are going to be by my direct and indirect choices and actions. It's become old hat and too typically routine. I feel it would be more natural if these old standards were buried or revamped so that it's not this disingenuous system. It's really funny thing when you talk all one way with companion 1 and flip flop like a politician during a talk to companion 2 while voicing a completely opposite opinion way just to avoid the Dislike.

[SNascimento]

Can't say I agree with that either, since ME2 actively rewards the player for color-coded, partisan decision-making. ME3's rep system is more versatile in that regard.

I was ignoring that part. I just mean purely the dialogue + interrupts.

[Linkenski]

It's just how the new Bioware is. Such a shame, because ME2 renegade Shepard was hilarious and just a bunch of fun to play as. I think they are taking it too seriously, or they listen too much to their top-hatted fans who loudly critisize all attempts at silliness and freedom of goofiness in Bioware games.

I heard so many say ME2's renegade choices made no sense. Who cares? They're hilarious.

[Farangbaa]

DA:I too soft?

You can personally behead people for punishment.
You can tranquilize mages for punishment.

Oh wait, those are just for pansies of course. We need to commit genocide or something.

[omgodzilla]

DA:I too soft?

You can personally behead people for punishment.
You can tranquilize mages for punishment.

Oh wait, those are just for pansies of course. We need to commit genocide or something.

 

I'll just copy and paste my previous response to this exact same argument:

 

You can only make someone tranquil as a mage. That's a big restriction for me since I tend to play as melee classes. Beheading are nice when they occur but they're pretty rare. And generally, the people you judge don't even show much emotion. They're usually just like "meh whatever"". When you send the goat thrower to the gibbet, he laughs. When you sentence Florriane to be a jester, she's like "whatever, I'm already a laughing stock". When you behead Erimond, he says "yes! do it! that's what I want!". When you behead the mayor, he basically says "I deserve this". Only Mistress Poulin (don't know if I spelled that right) shows any emotion upon being sentenced to death. The rest don't really care much. There's no fear. That's why it doesn't feel ruthless. The way the scene is presented is very important. This is why the renegade in Mass Effect is much more ruthless. In Mass Effect, Shepard can actually intimidate and strike fear into his enemies. The inquisitor rarely ever does that. He rarely ever comes across as being intimidating. The only major exception I can think of is when you kick Sera out of the inquisition when you get alot of disapporval with her. You basically tell her to run or die. I wish there were more scenes like that. 

 

Mass Effect 2 has DAI beat in terms of the sheer quantity and variety of ruthless option available. DAI doesn't even come close. Lets not even pretend that DAI has anything more ruthless than some of the choices you can make in any of the Mass Effect games. Like shooting Mordin and sabotaging the genophage in ME3. There were some very good reasons to do it but when you pick this option, you kill one of your close friends and become an accomplice in the genocide of an entire species (kinda). You can cause the Rachni to go extinct. You can shoot unarmed prisoners and hostages without any sort of trial in Mass Effect 1 and 2. You can beat, torture and kill your enemies in VERY gruesome ways. Like the scene where you burn the Krogan alive  or push that one guy out of the window in ME2. What does DAI have that can compare to that? A few beheadings? A tranquility option that's restricted to only one class? Sounds like the PG-13 version of DAO...