80 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Hardened Leliana is so much better than softened. The latter is unreal and its totally ridiculous if you make her divine, its impossible to do the reforms she want to do peacefully.

Dear God, no. Watching her kill Natalie was hard for me. Seeing her act so coldly was...rather harrowing.

[Lulupab]

Dear God, no. Watching her kill Natalie was hard for me. Seeing her act so coldly was...rather harrowing.

 

I was purely talking about her becoming Divine. Justinia wanted her hardened techniques and with her help she achieved a lot. Intrigue and threats are necessary if one is going to bring big reforms to the table. She must be vigilant against extremists and zealots alike. Softened Leliana as Divine is a fairy tale that based on provided lore cannot exist.

 

If I'm not making her Divine though, I don't harden her. She doesn't need to be like that so there is no reason to. She deserves some slack.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I accidentally hardened her in DAI. Oh well:

 

Hardened Leliana Divine > Softy Leliana Divine.

[Hellion Rex]

I was purely talking about her becoming Divine. Justinia wanted her hardened techniques and with her help she achieved a lot. Intrigue and threats are necessary if one is going to bring big reforms to the table. She must be vigilant against extremists and zealots alike. Softened Leliana as Divine is a fairy tale that based on provided lore cannot exist.

 

If I'm not making her Divine though, I don't harden her. She doesn't need to be like that so there is no reason to. She deserves some slack.

I made her Divine only because I want Cass solely focused on fixing the Seekers and no Viv because I don't want a mage on the throne.

[Steelcan]

After Leliana was hardened she basically went "murder is so much fun, I bet I could make the world so much better if I slit the throats of everyone who disagreed with me, so make me divine"

 

was uncomfortable

[Lulupab]

After Leliana was hardened she basically went "murder is so much fun, I bet I could make the world so much better if I slit the throats of everyone who disagreed with me, so make me divine"

 

was uncomfortable

 

That's rather excessive. I mean its part of what she does, there is no doubt. But I believe she also uses intigue, blackmail and threats and only kills when its necessary. She pretty much admits that she enjoys the game and deception has become a part of her, as well as death.

 

Vivienne puts down mage rebellion immediately as well (mages rebel if you make her divine). I doubt she sent them pies. She killed. So Leliana is not the only one.

[Nightdragon8]

Headcanon much?. The epilogue mentions unity is maintained regardless of anything. That's more than said for Vivienne who brings yet another mage rebellion.

 

Leliana is right about one thing, the city elves are literally wasted and they are more than useful. In the initial fight the emerald knights were better than chevaliers. It was only with the help of mages and Templars in an exalted march that the tide was turned in Orlais' favor. Loghain used city elves and he kicked Chevaliers from Ferelden cities one by one with the help of these elves. Briala brought (or was about to) strongest human nation in south to its knees with elf servants and how they have ears in every noble's home.

 

Hardened Leliana is needed, there are filth in Thedas that needs to be cleansed, with fire and blood. Destruction is a part of creation.

Which then he therw them back into alienages where they where allowed to be killed and raped for nobles... yea great leader Loghain was... not saying the Meric was much better but still.

[TheTurtle]

That's rather excessive. I mean its part of what she does, there is no doubt. But I believe she also uses intigue, blackmail and threats and only kills when its necessary. She pretty much admits that she enjoys the game and deception has become a part of her, as well as death.

Vivienne puts down mage rebellion immediately as well (mages rebel if you make her divine). I doubt she sent them pies. She killed. So Leliana is not the only one.

I think she's killing a bit more than necessary considering the epilogue say the floors of the chantry run with blood or something like that. It's not a phrase you would use if someone's doing what needs to be done, you usually use something like that when someone is ganking people to prove a point.

[Steelcan]

That's rather excessive. I mean its part of what she does, there is no doubt. But I believe she also uses intigue, blackmail and threats and only kills when its necessary. She pretty much admits that she enjoys the game and deception has become a part of her, as well as death.

 

Vivienne puts down mage rebellion immediately as well (mages rebel if you make her divine). I doubt she sent them pies. She killed. So Leliana is not the only one.

Cassandra for Divine 2014

[Dean_the_Young]

That's rather excessive. I mean its part of what she does, there is no doubt. But I believe she also uses intigue, blackmail and threats and only kills when its necessary. She pretty much admits that she enjoys the game and deception has become a part of her, as well as death.

 

Hardened Leliana has a rather... liberal interpretation of 'necessary..'

 

 

 

Vivienne puts down mage rebellion immediately as well (mages rebel if you make her divine). I doubt she sent them pies. She killed. So Leliana is not the only one.

 

A distinction to be made is the difference in their objectives. Vivienne plays hardball and is uncompromising, but her system is pretty much modest reform within the status quo. She's willing to kill to keep it within that spectrum, but it's an already established one. She also doesn't really care what you think, so long as you obey the rules, and most people already agree what those rules entail.

 

Leliana is seeking to overturn the social order and cultural dynamics. 'Thoughtcrime' would be stretching it, but she's willing to kill and crush dissent for the purpose and in pursuit of changing people's minds if they don't do it first.

 

Given a choice between two ruthless tyrants who would crush dissent, many would feel less secure with the one who perceives 'not changing your views fast enough' as 'dissent.'

[AWTEW]

Cassandra for Divine 2014

 

^This

[Battlebloodmage]

Unharnden Lelianna is unrealistic, asking people to join hands and sing kumbaya and it just somehow works. Hardened Lelianna makes more sense since if she kills all who oppose her then it makes sense she can force unification. 

[Dabrikishaw]

Hardened Leliana in inquisition kicks so much ass. I've never unhardened her yet.

[Computron2000]

I don't understand how people think that a softened Leilana is considered a pushover. 

 

The main difference is this. The softened Leilana will not kill or use death as the FIRST choice. She will still do it as and when needed but not as the FIRST choice. Negotiation (though more of josephine's shtick), blackmail, disgrace, using loopholes in the law, ect are better first options

 

Killing as the first choice is the easy way out and using the "greater good" as a crutch has been the hallmark of people who pretty much get crapped on by later generations throughout history. Suntzu has mentioned it way way back that immediately calling for war without using other methods instead is not a good idea

[Angarma]

After Leliana was hardened she basically went "murder is so much fun, I bet I could make the world so much better if I slit the throats of everyone who disagreed with me, so make me divine"

 

was uncomfortable

 

"Alistair, she's one Archdemon short of a blight."

 

 

We can assume Alistair was his mother's son.

[Celtic Latino]

I knew Leliana was a sociopath or at least has sociopathic tendencies.

In Origins she admits to being the 'girl someone wants', namely during her time with the Grand Game. After Marjolaines quest she admits a part of her enjoyed the killing.

In Inquisition it catches up with her. She's a spymaster (assassin leader really) by trade. And as Justinias left hand I'm quite sure she had a hand in keeping certain opponents down. Justinia was one of the best players of the game and knew darn well Leliana was an accomplished bard.

The sweet Origins Leliana is pretty much a diversion. Hardened/assassin Leliana is pretty much who she actually is. Even if she has 'nice' moments, including religious beliefs (some people would equate that to virtue) and emotional ties, deep down she has a sadistic streak any way you put it. The unhardened version is there for those who liked the idea of the nice Leliana from Origins. Its feasible but I don't believe that's who she really is. She just represses it either from a mixed conscience or decides to take Josephine's approach.

I see her as a human female Bhelen. Progressive but ruthless and tyrannical. Though she may actually do more harm than good, but that's a point for another thread.

[In Exile]

And it's impossible by force.

But Bioware dictates what happens.

It's their universe.

The game just says she purged her political enemies. That's pretty much how major changes worked historically too.

[Gervaise]

Really the choice with Lelianna was very similar to Origins, encourage her to embrace her "dark" side or keep her focussing on the "light".   It just comes out more extreme in DAI.   I didn't realise those early conversations would have such an effect, so was stuck with the dark Lelianna.    I never got the option to make her Divine but after the way she cut the sister's throat in cold blood I stopped trying to achieve it.   It was at that point I decided to make Cassandra Divine and leave Lelianna as her left hand, hoping that Cassandra would be strong minded enough to rein her in.   I didn't realise there was going to be an option of making Vivienne divine either.   That for me makes no sense at all, particularly when my Inquisitor asks why she can't be divine and Cassandra responds "because you're a mage", plus of course "they're scared of you."   Well anyone within the Orlesian court would know they had good reason to fear Vivienne and anyone outside of it would just view her as a mage, so I discount that option as ridiculous.

 

Having read the boards I am now going with a "restored" Lelianna.   I prefer this to softened.    In Hushed Whispers I have already put back on the path to being herself, yet she can still be just a tough, so don't take that as any indicator.     Restored Lelianna is the girl of faith, who saw the Maker in the beauty of the world and worried about doing "bad" things but still did what was necessary for us to succeed.    As my Warden, who romanced her, pointed out, it is only truly evil people who never question what they are doing.   That is the true Lelianna and if doing questionable things for the Divine has dulled her sense of conscience, then I would definitely like to restore it.     I still think that Cassandra is the right mix of toughness and fairness, with balanced reforms, to make the Divine the times require but I'd be willing to take a chance on restored Lelianna having the toughness to push through the reforms she feels are necessary but willing to treat her opponents with mercy.     If the Inquisitor can build a strong reputation based on sparing the sort of people that you can, surely a Divine need not be seen as weak for doing the same.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Soft or not Leliana will pretty much will bring massive disasters with her naive attitude that is out off touch with reality as viviene points. 

[RobRam10]

Double post  

[RobRam10]

Soft or not Leliana will pretty much will bring massive disasters with her naive attitude that is out off touch with reality as viviene points. 

Good. Lel will inadvertently destroy the Chantry from the top. 

[TEWR]

Thing is, Leliana's enemies were forming their own sects. These sects would get their own followers and then their own forces. These weren't just people arguing against her, these were differing branches of Andrastianism with different motives and intentions at play. That poses a threat and to crush it is understandable and a justified course of action, albeit bloody. Drakon did the same thing ages ago, even if it was more for his own personal power then anything else.

 

Ultimately, one has to deal with such a thing in whatever way will ensure unity.

 

However, I feel that the way Leliana acts as Divine is a bit too.... simplistic. That is to say, it forces Leliana into two extreme ends of the spectrum. One is a pure being who resolves things with words -- and that does not always work. Words may sway some people, but on others they will not -- while the other is a person who will resolve any threat to her goals with bloodshed.

 

I wouldn't call that last one playing the Game. The Game was just as much about political douchery as it was curbstomping your enemies. Granted, Leliana would still have her own spy ring and she could still play the Game through that network, but I would hope Bioware wouldn't actually make her Princess Stabbity.

 

A Divine should be equal parts both. She should know when to crush her enemies without mercy... and when to use the powers of persuasion to bring about peaceful unity.

 

One who solves everything by force can become a tyrant. The other one is an idealist who will eventually meet a ghastly end.

[wright1978]

My warden never saw her as a simple girl. He knew she was a bard, supported her in re-affirming her belief in that way of life. Got to say he won't have any issues with his hardened lover in DAI.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Disasters she will cause won't go on chantry account only on her and mages chantry could easily replace her.

[BobZilla84]

Unhardened for me and no Divine either she is going to reunite with my Warden for good.