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[SgtSteel91]

Am I the only one who prefers Samson as a symbol of everything wrong with the Templars and Chantry over some lackey Cory was lucky enough to find?

 

Yeah, he makes a good foil to Cullen.

 

If I were to criticize Hushed Whispers, it would be that you didn't get a chance to work with the Rebel Mages like the Templars. I think people would be more receptive to it if you, say, started the quest with you, Fiona, and the Mages clearing Redcliff Castle of Venatori after exposing Alexius and then at the end confront Alexius, where you are thrown into the future.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 In Hushed Whispers had a cooler premise (being thrown into the future where Cory wins, getting a good look at it and having to go back to undo that). Alexius was also a much better antagonist than Envy.

 

 

But the rest, I would have to give to Champions of the Just. While the mission was not quite as interesting, it had better level-design than 'Whispers's dungeon-crawl. Samson coming back as an enemy commander was just bizarre. Calpernia was much more grey and interesting opponent. Dorian was better in the messenger role than Cole (though it's easier to accept Cole as a companion through the mage route, IMO). Barris straight pwns Fiona. And as allies, recruiting the mages is a bit embarrassing after seeing them crap the bed (again), whereas the Templars are a much more formidable addition and still reasonably well-respected despite the issues they've had of late, so it is much more fulfilling to bring them aboard the Inquisition.

[phaonica]

I like the mage quest better. I like the creepy time travel story and Dorian more.

[Hazegurl]

Am I the only one who prefers Samson as a symbol of everything wrong with the Templars and Chantry over some lackey Cory was lucky enough to find?

Actually the real lackey was Samson. Cory actually respected Calpurnia (as much as a wannabe God could), saw great potential in her, regretted what he was doing to her, and lamented that her potential was being ignored because of how messed up the world was now.

 

Samson was just a junky with mysterious red lyrium tolerance that Cory picked up somewhere.

[yellowpride]

I like them both fairly equally, but I tend to prefer Champions of the Just.  I like getting to meet Cole a little bit sooner and I like that there's a bit more of a sense of urgency in it, with the whole "you have to move quickly to save as many people as possible" thing (as opposed to the "as long as we do this, nothing bad actually happened" thing with In Hushed Whispers). 

 

On top of that, I like the option to either dissolve or rebuild the Templar order more than I like either freeing or imprisoning the rebel mages (I feel like both those options are too extreme for my Inquisitors).

[SgtSteel91]

 And as allies, recruiting the mages is a bit embarrassing after seeing them crap the bed (again), whereas the Templars are a much more formidable addition and still reasonably well-respected despite the issues they've had of late, so it is much more fulfilling to bring them aboard the Inquisition.

 

I kind of like the redemption aspect of allying with the Mages (and the Grey Wardens similarly). Where everyone else would condemn these groups for their misguided actions (and do for a lot of them), you see past it, don't punish them heavily for it, and give them a chance to prove to the world they can be better. And in the end, your faith in them is rewarded and they do change for the better. It also sends a message that the Inquisition is about taking in these misguided groups and rehabilitating them for the better in their quest to restore order.

[wepeel_]

Like many others, I find this a difficult choice every playthrough, in itself testament to good design.

 

In terms of gameplay and general feeling I prefer the mages. It feels more personal and has a better introduction, and I also feel the red templars make for better massed opponents than the venatori, as well as preferring Dorian to Cole, though such things are down to personal preference.

 

On the other hand though, there's considering the long-term consequences of the choice:

 

- If you side with the mages, you help them out, but essentially leave the templar order to get completely wiped out and converted to red templars. You also avert the threat of Alexius's dark future, but that future is caused by the inquisitor getting removed from the timeline more than anything else, so you basically avoid it by not siding with the mages in the first place. Dorian suggests that the influence of Alexius's time magic will spread on its own, but nothing seems to come of it.

 

- If you side with the templars, you help them out, but doing so also has beneficial consequences for mages in all the areas the inquisition can influence. The mages who are already in Alexius's grasp are by all accounts lost, but beyond them a restored templar order under a capable commander like Barris helps not only the templars themselves (likely to be able to weed out unsuitable elements, etc), but the remaining mages and people in general across Thedas as well, as the war table missions illustrate. It's really a chance to reforge the templars into what they should have been all along.

 

So in short it seems that siding with the mages = good for them but utterly screws the templars; whereas siding with the templars = greater good for everyone.

 

This tears at me somewhat as deep down on a personal level I really prefer the mage quest.. so I'm still undecided, every playthrough. I don't really see what people have against the time travel setup, and while I like Barris I also can't really see what makes him that special. But yeah, making my way through the future version of Redcliffe castle and seeing what becomes of everyone and everything really drives the feelings home. Maybe it's related to the quest you did in your first playthrough "sticking with you", but for me it sort of became canon.

[Catche Jagger]

In Hushed Whispers fits in better with the overall plot. Despite of my personal dislike for the existence of time magic within Dragon Age, the visit to the dark future does give a good understanding of what's at stake should the Inquisition fail to stop Corypheus. Also, Dorian's fun to have around, dispite me feeling that his introduction at Haven is better.

However, I feel that the Templar side has better individual elements. Despite not fitting in with the overall story as well, Champions of the Just feels like a better mission in it's own right, with the mysterious nature of things that would never come to pass being traded out for a tense battle for both the souls of both the Templar order and the Inquisition. Also, as has been stated before Calpurnia is a more compelling enemy than Sampson (I know he's a foil to Cullen, but why the hell is that? Why would Corypheus's general be written as a foil to the military advisor who players may or may not give two sh**s about?) Also, in my personal opinion Ser Barris > Fiona, even though she had all of that extra time in the books, though I do understand why some might prefer her.

[SgtSteel91]

You can also help out the scattered Mages when siding with the Rebels. If you ally with the Rebels, you get the War Table Mission, Reclaiming the Mage Rebellion, where Fiona gives you the location of the scattered Mages. There's no mission to save Mages from false accusations and such because they are already with you.

[Colbyachi]

Honestly they both have good and bad. I personally think that the mages are better for helping with the breach, but the quest itself is something that I cannot get that into. Champions of the Just has a more logical quest, but the Templars make no real sense at the breach (my opinion).

Templars can weaken the breach so that it's easier for the Inquisitor to close it. I think this is better than the mages, who all channel more enegry through you into to breach which sounds like a very bad idea given that we still don't understand the breach itself

[SgtSteel91]

Templars can weaken the breach so that it's easier for the Inquisitor to close it. I think this is better than the mages, who all channel more enegry through you into to breach which sounds like a very bad idea given that we still don't understand the breach itself

 

Solas says it's cool so no worries, right? 

 

I like to think that the Mages supercharging your mark is partly the reason you get the Mark of Rift ability.

[Colbyachi]

Solas says it's cool so no worries, right?

I like to think that the Mages supercharging your mark is partly the reason you get the Mark of Rift ability.

I would be inclined to agree with you as it makes sense, but you get the ability regardless. Good head cannon though.

[SgtSteel91]

I would be inclined to agree with you as it makes sense, but you get the ability regardless. Good head cannon though.

 

I also figure that as a Mage siding with the Templars you get that ability when training as a Rift Mage.

[Eveangaline]

In hushed whispers feels like you're more in the know about what the enemy is planning. Makes more sense when you want to know about how that demon army gets formed later, and know that the empress is going to be assassinated. It also feels more like the plot is throwing it at you, and seems to make more sense plotwise.

 

Oooooon the other hand I had more fun with champions of the just, and I'm glad I have the choice to dissolve the templar order, so it's not like I'm siding with templars over mages just because I recruited them. I also like getting Cole earlier because the hinterlands is a great place to get loads of approval from him for just doing fetch quests for peasants.

[Computron2000]

The hushed whispers portal trip is better than the templar's imagination trip.

 

Overall though, the templar's ending has more interesting lead ins, from the wartable missions with the noble and the really really lets you want to kill her calpernia (she has reasons and everything but she is just so bloody idiotic that even after i explained to her how she was being used, i decided to kill her)

 

Also BIG pull factor: Your get to KILL FIONA. yes you get to kill the moron that sold out every mage that trusted her into minddead slavery to the main villian and you don't have to see her dumb face every time you go pass monster stuff to the tranquil or when you find dorian

 

Up to you OP but do play the templars at least once (and don't do the ritual)

[wepeel_]

In hushed whispers feels like you're more in the know about what the enemy is planning. Makes more sense when you want to know about how that demon army gets formed later, and know that the empress is going to be assassinated. It also feels more like the plot is throwing it at you, and seems to make more sense plotwise.

 

I do agree with this part. The templar side makes a rather big deal out of Celene getting assassinated, whereas during the mage quest it's up to the inquisitor to pay attention to that part and realize (with everything else going on at the moment) that it's a turning point.

[Adanu]

Actually the real lackey was Samson. Cory actually respected Calpurnia (as much as a wannabe God could), saw great potential in her, regretted what he was doing to her, and lamented that her potential was being ignored because of how messed up the world was now.

 

Samson was just a junky with mysterious red lyrium tolerance that Cory picked up somewhere.

 

Actually both were lackeys, but Samson was a great symbol of the eventual fate of all Templars if they survive to old age.

 

Calp was just another Tevinter mage.

[Master Warder Z_]

And in the end, your faith in them is rewarded and they do change for the better.

...what game did you play.

[Hazegurl]

Maybe we just see things differently cause to me it's Cullen that reflects the future of the order whether he's able to kick the Lyrium or not. Samson was just an addict who couldn't kick his habit. It's not like the GW calling where they all die due to the taint. Samson was going through withdrawal for a long time, something that can kill them. He took the red Lyrium and had a tolerance for it and Cory decided to use him. The Templars as a whole were just Cory's second choice.

 

But yeah they both were lackeys overall. However, Cory reveals another side of himself based on his selection of her. Samson just seemed so random and the whole "We don't know why he is tolerant but we need to research him" conclusion was lackluster. Calpernia actually had a mind of her own, and Cory had to deal with her differently, by actually hiding and lying.  There is just no contest. Samson is a joke.

[SgtSteel91]

...what game did you play.

 

The one where you ally with the Mages and have no problem with out of control Mages, Blood Magic, or possession. Where the allied Grey Wardens don't fall under Corypheus' control at any time and betray you. Where Leliana becomes Divine, dissolves the Circles, and the Mages, lead by Fiona, create the College of Enchanters and rehabilitate their image enough to enjoy unprecedented acceptance across Thdeas. Where the Southern Grey Wardens decide to emerge from the shadows and join the rest of the world, accompanied with an uplifting slide of Grey Wardens rebuilding and helping the weak.

 

I'm sure you're happy with the way you played, but I've seen enough posts from you to know that the way we play and the choices we like to make can be very different. I like these choices and playing the game this way, I hope you can respect that.

[Master Warder Z_]

I can't.

I simply cannot reconcile with how Bioware hand waved that bull**** in there.

They did their universe and fans a major disservice.

Also if you want the truth?

I'm indifferent at best to the game in general, it's potential that ultimately never delivered, it's conclusion to both the wars and underlying themes of both wrecked my faith in the series.

It's alright that radical reform comes after a rebellion without major outcry across the continent, it's fine that the civil war was shoved under the rug and became background noise to exploration of vast pointless areas.

[renfrees]

I also don't buy this "unprecedented acceptance". We've been taught how mundane parents cast their children out to the Circle upon discovering their magical talent. We've been taught that magic is a stain in the noble lineages of southern Thedas, and has been for centuries. We've been taught that masses fear mages. And now all of it suddenly forgotten on a whim of the new Divine? If a centuries-old conflict is so easy to solve with creating the College, then it wasn't much of a conflict anyway. Which is not an impression I've been given over the course of the first 2 games.

[Korva]

You can also help out the scattered Mages when siding with the Rebels.

 

I think his point -- and it's a good one -- is that you apparently do nothing for the "other side" if you ally with the mages, whereas allying with the templars allows you to help (and even recruit) mages via the war table. So overall, it feels like Champions has the broader positive impact.

 

For me, the biggest reason why I can't side with the mages is attitude. I haven't read any of the books so I didn't care a whit for Fiona one way or another, but this game made me utterly loathe her self-absorbed attitude. Ally with her and you have an assbag who'd smugly do it all over again. Ally with the templars and you have a leaderless, battered and humbled mess who KNOW how far they have fallen. Not to mention that they actually fight back with everything they have.

 

In the overall conflict, both sides are at fault and both need to get their **** together. I'm even inclined towards the mages because they have undeniably suffered a lot of abuse. But the missions in-game? It's not even a contest, Champions of the Just all the way.

[Lulupab]

I also don't buy this "unprecedented acceptance". We've been taught how mundane parents cast their children out to the Circle upon discovering their magical talent. We've been taught that magic is a stain in the noble lineages of southern Thedas, and has been for centuries. We've been taught that masses fear mages. And now all of it suddenly forgotten on a whim of the new Divine? If a centuries-old conflict is so easy to solve with creating the College, then it wasn't much of a conflict anyway. Which is not an impression I've been given over the course of the first 2 games.

 
Unhardened Leliana as divine doesn't make sense, so you are right. But Hardened leliana knows every secret and scandal about such people and can use intrigue and blackmail to put these people down, if that doesn't work, anyone who opposes her find a dagger across their throat. With Inquisition backing her up and she having agents and spies in every corner hardened Leliana ending is quite believable.
 

[renfrees]

 
Unhardened Leliana as divine doesn't make sense, so you are right. But Hardened leliana knows every secret and scandal about such people and can use intrigue and blackmail to put these people down, if that doesn't work, anyone who opposes her find a dagger across their throat. With Inquisition backing her up and she having agents and spies in every corner hardened Leliana ending is quite believable.
 

But it's the masses who have deeply ingrained fear for mages. Regardless of her spy network she can't hold a dagger at every throat in the South. Human's perception and beliefs cannot be changed overnight with edicts, it takes generations for ideology to settle in.