81 réponses à ce sujet

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I can't.

I simply cannot reconcile with how Bioware hand waved that bull**** in there.

They did their universe and fans a major disservice.

Also if you want the truth?

I'm indifferent at best to the game in general, it's potential that ultimately never delivered, it's conclusion to both the wars and underlying themes of both wrecked my faith in the series.

It's alright that radical reform comes after a rebellion without major outcry across the continent, it's fine that the civil war was shoved under the rug and became background noise to exploration of vast pointless areas.

 

[Eveangaline]

But it's the masses who have deeply ingrained fear for mages. Regardless of her spy network she can't hold a dagger at every throat in the South. Human's perception and beliefs cannot be changed overnight with edicts, it takes generations for ideology to settle in.

 

Considering what the templars do if you side with the mages, I can see the south easily going "well mages are scary...but I don't want any templar orders forming to take them out."

[SgtSteel91]

I think his point -- and it's a good one -- is that you apparently do nothing for the "other side" if you ally with the mages, whereas allying with the templars allows you to help (and even recruit) mages via the war table. So overall, it feels like Champions has the broader positive impact.

For me, the biggest reason why I can't side with the mages is attitude. I haven't read any of the books so I didn't care a whit for Fiona one way or another, but this game made me utterly loathe her self-absorbed attitude. Ally with her and you have an assbag who'd smugly do it all over again. Ally with the templars and you have a leaderless, battered and humbled mess who KNOW how far they have fallen. Not to mention that they actually fight back with everything they have.

In the overall conflict, both sides are at fault and both need to get their **** together. I'm even inclined towards the mages because they have undeniably suffered a lot of abuse. But the missions in-game? It's not even a contest, Champions of the Just all the way.

You can't really help the Templar side when allying with the Mages since all of the Templars in Southern Thedas are either dead or corrupted. Not all of the Mages joined Fiona at Redcliff. And the Circle of Magi aren't really a military order like the Templars. They can only really support the Inquisition with their arcane knowledge, researching, healing, support stuff like that. But they help rehabilitate their image by helping the Inquisiton (and also the Inquisition making reparations on behalf of the mages for things like Redcliff).

[Akkos]

Storywise I prefer the champion of the just. because after seeing the scene in Val Royeaux, I'd want to know what's wrong with the templars.

 

I went to redcliffe and saw Fiona is "safe" with a Tevinter magister, so I went straight to Theridal Redoubt.

 

 

Only reason to complete In the hushed whisper is to get Dorian early and Alistair's mother alive.

[Korva]

You can't really help the Templar side when allying with the Mages since all of the Templars in Southern Thedas are either dead or corrupted.

 

See, that is unsatifying and unbelivable to me. The game really should have done a better job with the conflict than to drop it like a hot potato the moment either ally mission is completed. There are templars who have left, who disagree, who didn't follow the summons to Therinfal. Give them a chance to unite and rebuild without a corrupt leadership, and you could probably find at least a handful or two of powerful allies. If nothing else, a war table mission or three would have been good to see on that subject -- like siding with the templars lets you protect mages hiding in their former Circle, and save some others from a blood magic cabal they don't really want to be part of.

[wepeel_]

You can't really help the Templar side when allying with the Mages since all of the Templars in Southern Thedas are either dead or corrupted.

See, that is unsatifying and unbelivable to me. The game really should have done a better job with the conflict than to drop it like a hot potato the moment either ally mission is completed. There are templars who have left, who disagree, who didn't follow the summons to Therinfal. Give them a chance to unite and rebuild without a corrupt leadership, and you could probably find at least a handful or two of powerful allies. If nothing else, a war table mission or three would have been good to see on that subject -- like siding with the templars lets you protect mages hiding in their former Circle, and save some others from a blood magic cabal they don't really want to be part of.

 

Yeah, this whole thing really throws a cinch in it for me. It does require near-metagame thinking to know, but given that I do know it as a player I don't feel quite right siding with the mages even though I prefer their storyline.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The templar path is the better one.

 

The Dorian/Cole dynamic is better on the templar path because you actually still have a chance to meet Dorian and talk to him in the Redcliffe chantry, giving you a chance to know and therefor trust him before he shows up outside the gates of Haven, meanwhile Cole have a wonderful introduction where he helps you overcome Envy in the nightmare, thereby giving you a huge reason to trust him. Contrast this with the mage path where Cole is just this weirdo showing up in front of your gates. I also prefer Dorian's dialog compared to Cole's at Haven, his snark with Cullen is quite fun.

 

The templar mission is the better crafted one on various levels. From a gameplay perspective it has a lot of variety, from a small RP moment with the flags to the breather level in the form of the nightmare, to the timed stage where depending on how fast or slow you are, Barris can die. This variety in gameplay also helps strenghten the mission's dramatic curve, making it feel really well paced that hits all the right emotional notes. The mage mission however, is just a dungeon crawler through Redcliffe castle.

 

The time travel is also a huge disfavor for the mage mission because it shatters any illusion of tension one might have. Almost everything that happens in the bad future is nothing more than cheap and consequence free-drama that won't matter once you get back to the present.  One might try to argue that the nightmare section of the templar mission is just as guilty of this, but I would disagree because to start with, the nightmare sequence does not dominate the entire mission unlike the time travel which takes up the majority of the other mission. And also because beyond the "This is what happens if you fail" warning, the nightmare sequence also serves as a warning of what you and the inquisition could become if you abuse your power. A small thing that is talked about throughout the game is characters wondering what will become of the inquisition once Cory is stopped, Cassandra wonders if the inquisition will go the way of the Seekers in that "Power became its own master" and in the end only become interested in its own well-being. The nightmare sequence serves to show some of the horros the inquisition could inflict if you were nothing more than a self-serving tyrant.

 

The difference between Calpernia and Samson also favors the templar path. While both villains by themselves feel somewhat meh, Calpernia wins out because her character and mission helps flesh out Cory more and help show a more human side to him which Cory's character sorely needs. That said, Samson does however show a bit more of Cullen so if that is what you want then I guess Samson is better. 

[errantknight]

I like them both fairly equally, but I tend to prefer Champions of the Just.  I like getting to meet Cole a little bit sooner and I like that there's a bit more of a sense of urgency in it, with the whole "you have to move quickly to save as many people as possible" thing (as opposed to the "as long as we do this, nothing bad actually happened" thing with In Hushed Whispers). 

 

On top of that, I like the option to either dissolve or rebuild the Templar order more than I like either freeing or imprisoning the rebel mages (I feel like both those options are too extreme for my Inquisitors).

Conscripting the mages didn't feel too extreme to me, it felt kind of soft after they allied with a magister and stood by while he took over a chunk of Ferelden. Hanging would have been another viable option, lol.

 

I didn't feel like it was 'if we do this nothing bad will happen', more like 'holy crap, we have to get out of here and stop Corypheus, because if we don't, it's way more effed up than we thought.'

 

I really want to try the templar branch, too, though. Problem is I get stuck on 'Hmm, that templar is a total douche. Guess I'll go ask him for help... Nah. Mages.'

[In Exile]

I just don't see how you can justify not doing Hushed Whispers once you learn what Alexius is doing with time magic. It sounds like an unbelievably serious threat.

[Milan92]

I just don't see how you can justify not doing Hushed Whispers once you learn what Alexius is doing with time magic. It sounds like an unbelievably serious threat.

 

By simply not visiting Redcliff?

 

You don't actually find out about the time magic unless you go to Redcliff. So the inquisitor had no way of knowing how urgent it was.

 

Meanwhile you do find out that something is going on with the templar order.

[wepeel_]

The time travel is also a huge disfavor for the mage mission because it shatters any illusion of tension one might have. Almost everything that happens in the bad future is nothing more than cheap and consequence free-drama that won't matter once you get back to the present.  One might try to argue that the nightmare section of the templar mission is just as guilty of this, but I would disagree because to start with, the nightmare sequence does not dominate the entire mission unlike the time travel which takes up the majority of the other mission. And also because beyond the "This is what happens if you fail" warning, the nightmare sequence also serves as a warning of what you and the inquisition could become if you abuse your power.

 

I never felt this way about the time travel section at all. If anything it seemed to drive home the utter importance of the inquisition's and the inquitor's place in the world, and a big part of that impact comes from it all not being a dreamscape painted by a demon inside your mind, but because you're physically there, along with twisted versions of your companions, to see exactly what will happen. The idea that "this won't matter once I get back to the present" might have been there to me as a player, but immersion-wise my character had no idea if getting back to the present was even an actual possibility. Unlike having a nightmare, it seems like being stranded in a nightmare reality. At least for my inquisitor the ordeal had a profound effect on resolve that I didn't feel the same way in the templar quest.

[Korva]

The Dorian/Cole dynamic is better on the templar path because you actually still have a chance to meet Dorian and talk to him in the Redcliffe chantry, giving you a chance to know and therefor trust him before he shows up outside the gates of Haven, meanwhile Cole have a wonderful introduction where he helps you overcome Envy in the nightmare, thereby giving you a huge reason to trust him. Contrast this with the mage path where Cole is just this weirdo showing up in front of your gates.

 

This, like the rest of your post, sums up my opinion perfectly. As I said in Cole's thread, I think he's doing his best to appear human so as to not make everyone freak out more than they already do, it being the middle of a siege and all, but there's still something noticably "off" about him.

 

I also prefer Dorian's dialog compared to Cole's at Haven, his snark with Cullen is quite fun.

 

I laughed out loud at, "For a templar, you think like a blood mage!" Too bad Roderick interrupts right afterwards -- actually, good for everyone since it saves their hides, but I'd have loved to hear Cullen's reaction to that.

 

Plus, Dorian helping Roderick and being with him until he dies, then later telling you of Roderick's regret and apology, shows a side of him that you might not expect from his more customary flamboyant posturing and irreverence. It was a big part of what made him all right in my book. This fancy Tevinter scion with the unquestionably pronounced ego will get his hands dirty without hesitation, even for a stranger who'd have torn into him in other circumstances.

 

And also because beyond the "This is what happens if you fail" warning, the nightmare sequence also serves as a warning of what you and the inquisition could become if you abuse your power.

 

Exactly. It's a strong recurring theme throughout the game, and a very important one at that. If anything, it's a shame that it's not an even stronger factor, a greater pressure on the Inquisitor as her power grows.

[Korva]

I just don't see how you can justify not doing Hushed Whispers once you learn what Alexius is doing with time magic. It sounds like an unbelievably serious threat.

 

Which can actually be a reason to go for the templars -- grab some sorely needed anti-magical backup first, then deal with that mess with their help.

 

I think most people who prefer the templars would agree that the initial setup for both missions is ridiculously uneven. Alexius is a big threat, not far from Haven to boot, and on top of that we also know he has it in for us personally. Meanwhile the templars bugger off and sequester themselves, after Lucius proclaims us to be beneath his notice. They're undoubtedly up to no good, but the situation in Redcliffe feels so much more personal and immediate that I agonized over it for quite a while although I'd always intended my warrior to recruit the templars.

 

Thankfully, the mission itself more than makes up for the lousy setup.

[crimzontearz]

Not sure I agree with wepeel

Both "visions" of the future hinge on am eventuality. In "in hushed whispers" the eventuality is that the inquisitor steps through the time portal and vanishes for a year. In "champions of the just" the eventuality is that the inquisitor fails to resist Envy and is replaced. Sure... Envy only projects images of what he is planning to do but think about this....with the inquisitor removed ( time displaced) Corypheus steamrolls over your allies who fight a bitter war losing it. IF Envy replaces you the inquisitor/envy will work FOR Corypheus and LEAD the demon army alongside the red templars (he says so himself) how much worse do you think that will be?

[wepeel_]

Not sure I agree with wepeel

Both "visions" of the future hinge on am eventuality. In "in hushed whispers" the eventuality is that the inquisitor steps through the time portal and vanishes for a year. In "champions of the just" the eventuality is that the inquisitor fails to resist Envy and is replaced. Sure... Envy only projects images of what he is planning to do but think about this....with the inquisitor removed ( time displaced) Corypheus steamrolls over your allies who fight a bitter war losing it. IF Envy replaces you the inquisitor/envy will work FOR Corypheus and LEAD the demon army alongside the red templars (he says so himself) how much worse do you think that will be?

 

I can agree with this point, but maintain that the threat feels less direct in the templar quest. With the demon inside your mind you seem to still have a decent fighting chance at maintaining control, whereas in the mage quest the battle is already lost and damage done - you have to find some way to undo it, which seems like a taller order.

[crimzontearz]

I can agree with this point, but maintain that the threat feels less direct in the templar quest. With the demon inside your mind you seem to still have a decent fighting chance at maintaining control, whereas in the mage quest the battle is already lost and damage done - you have to find some way to undo it, which seems like a taller order.

emotionally maybe but rationally you know that if you NEVER left that future is not going to happen because YOU will prevent it (Dorian makes it clear you can go back). At the same time you know none of Envy's planning will come to be if you defeat him. Again...it all hinges on an eventuality, your failure. Also rationally....Envy taking over the inquisition leads to MUCH worse outcomes

[wepeel_]

Also rationally....Envy taking over the inquisition leads to MUCH worse outcomes

 

I'm not sure -  faster deteriorating outcome perhaps, but it seems fairly clear in the mage quest that the world is doomed - how much worse it would be with the inquisitor corrupted seems academic.

[crimzontearz]

I'm not sure - faster deteriorating outcome perhaps, but it seems fairly clear in the mage quest that the world is doomed - how much worse it would be with the inquisitor corrupted seems academic.

no...it's mathematics

In one future the inquisition fights back and loses ( Lelliana still managed to do damage)

In the other the inquisition fights alongside Corypheus adding its power to his

[Nemesis788450]

i think the whole storyline doesnt make a lot of sense - if you do the templars line, tevinter will be the enemies (what you wont know / does make sense unless you do the mages line) and viceverca - cause the background is explained in the other path...so both baths make actually only sense if you have played both paths....

 

imo (which line delivers better)

 

villain: templars > mages (cause you get the mages villain)

enemies: mages > templars (i think the templars are cooler enemies

red thread: templars > mages (i think the templars storyline kinda makes more sense and keeps up the red thread better, the mages is a bit out of place)

lore: mages > templars (the mage storyline does give a bit more lorebackground than the templars but feels not as well placed within the overall story to me)

storyline istself: mages > templars (its just a more innovative story, but thats very subjective)

 

to me personally, i liked the overall templar story better cause it fit better into the world, story and to my human character....also the main villain once reveled is really cool and the villain in the mages story kinda gets not enough backstory regarding his character, reasonings etc... the templar villain doesnt need that due to its "nature"...

[Cypher0020]

Just began my female qunari mage, I want to go with the mages, since I was templar 3 times,  but...Fiona's plot/Alexius with the time magic is just so utterly bonkers......plus.......no Ser Barris 

 

logical reason? I even tell Fiona 'we're nothing alike' when she asks to appeal to her fellow mages

[Nemesis788450]

I'd agree, but Ser Barris > Fiona.

Champions of the Just is a pretty fun quest. And you get to meet ( and potentially begin ) several hilarious war-room missions with Lord Abernache and the Goat-Thrower.

i assume that idiot needs to be alive for that? cause i just realized reading through some wiki stuff that he is not really supposed to die and obviously did in my game :-(

[Korva]

Abernache apparently won't die if you refuse to do the flag ritual in Therinfal Reboubt. I didn't know that either since it would have been utterly OOC for my Karis to refuse the honor of performing an important rite that outsiders rarely see, plus she didn't want to start the meeting on the wrong foot. It's not really a matter of him not being "supposed" to die, just a humorous extra if he lives. Much as I'd like to laugh at those missions, I'll stick to doing the flags for RP reasons.

[EmissaryofLies]

I like CoJ. Because with a few exceptions I get to see how I would run the Inquisition if the protagonist weren't so neutered.

[wepeel_]

no...it's mathematics

In one future the inquisition fights back and loses ( Lelliana still managed to do damage)

In the other the inquisition fights alongside Corypheus adding its power to his

 

The war is still lost with the world perishing in a flood of demons in both scenarios, I can't really see any meaningful difference given that outcome and less than a year to reach it.

[Nirual86]

Honestly, the Time Travel thing felt like breath of fresh air, I honestly expected it to be another Fade section. The games have become kinda predictable when it comes to that, so hats off to Hushed Whispers for subverting my expectations. Plus it was creepy as hell. The Nightmare was childs play in comparison.

However, I was a bit peeved at getting thrown in there with Dorian with no skills or chance of equipping him and immediately having to fight enemies.

 

As for Champions of the Just, it had the expected fade section but at least it was fairly short. The whole main hall defense thing was pretty unique, if also a bit tedious. I also liked the bait and switch with the flag test.

 

Both are effective in their own way, though I felt that Champions of the Just is better realized in terms of consequences. Ser Barris gets to redeem the surviving Templars, Mages don't really get that. And Calpernia leads to a very interesting quest, and you can even get her to turn on Corypheus.