542 réponses à ce sujet

[scrutinizer]

The thing is, you are reading the statement about appearance of male characters as a complaint and zomg hypocri- sorry, "dissonance" vs what it actually is in the given context -- an observation that characters of both genders were apparently given the same treatment, which dismisses the OP's paranoid idea BioWare is specifically out to get these poor heterosexual males by selectively denying them the eye candy.

Maybe. Maybe not. We may be both wrong. 

Vox Draco is the author of the response we are both referring to; she is the only judge.

[Dabrikishaw]

Oh my ****** god. Why do these topics keep being made?

[AlanC9]

So you say you prefer NO INVENTORY IN A PARTY-BASED RPG?

You are amazing. You are definitely the picture of a person that DA: I is meant for.

I should have been more precise there. I prefer zero inventory to a game that's focused on loot. I don't have any problem with equipment per se; for instance, ME3 was fine, except for the idea that Shepard needed to scrounge for credits rather than putting everything on an Alliance Amex card. ME2 shouldn't have had shops either, but I guess we need something to do on the hubs.

But yep, I'm happy with Bio's recent approach to these matters. I don't think that most CRPG-specific traditions are not very good in the first place, and I'm happy to see Bio break with them.

[Maverick827]

The thing is, you are reading the statement about appearance of male characters as a complaint and zomg hypocri- sorry, "dissonance" vs what it actually is in the given context -- an observation that characters of both genders were apparently given the same treatment, which dismisses the OP's paranoid idea BioWare is specifically out to get these poor heterosexual males by selectively denying them the eye candy.

I really hate that it's okay to mock straight males on these forums but no one else.

Imagine the post, "LOL, gays want to romance Cullen/Cassandra? Oh, woe is them, they don't have anyone to be gay with in video games, LOL"

Not good, right? Would probably get removed by moderators, right?

So please, let's leave the "aww, poor straight men" and "straight male tears nom nom" style of posts at the door. Attack the argument, not the person.

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I should have been more precise there. I prefer zero inventory to a game that's focused on loot. I don't have any problem with equipment per se; for instance, ME3 was fine, except for the idea that Shepard needed to scrounge for credits rather than putting everything on an Alliance Amex card. ME2 shouldn't have had shops either, but I guess we need something to do on the hubs.

But yep, I'm happy with Bio's recent approach to these matters. I don't think that most CRPG-specific traditions are very good in the first place, and I'm happy to see Bio break with them.

 

I'll print that and pin to a wall.

Just to remember how far we've fallen with the education of the youngsters.

[errantknight]

I genuinely don't understand this thread.

[hwlrmnky]

I really hate that it's okay to mock straight males on these forums but no one else.
Imagine the post, "LOL, gays want to romance Cullen/Cassandra? Oh, woe is them, they don't have anyone to be gay with in video games, LOL"
Not good, right? Would probably get removed by moderators, right?
So please, let's leave the "aww, poor straight men" and "straight male tears nom nom" style of posts at the door. Attack the argument, not the person.

Well said.

[whitless256]

Very interesting that just yesterday women were claiming in another thread (linked earlier in this discussion) that men get to complain all the time about things they want changed and no one ever comes to attack them for it.   I countered it there, and I'll counter it here, too.   Men have a right to comment that there is no LI suited to their particular tastes just as much as women do.  Many of us disagree, myself included, but I do think it's fair to say that DAI caters a bit more to female fanservice than male.   Is it a nice change, yeah.   But I'm also not opposed to men having something to look at, too.

 

Do I think that Cassandra and Josephine are ugly?  Not in the least.   Do I think, on the whole, that the women in DAI are less attractive than the men in DAI?  Yes.  Dorian and Cullen are both very conventionally attractive (and Dorian's ass is amazing).  And I also find Solas amazingly attractive, as unconventional as his look is.  I think all three of them appeal more to the standards of conventional beauty than either Cass, Josie, or Sera.  Doesn't mean I think they're ugly.  Just means I think the guys have a point.   I also think Josie's outfit is really doing her no favors.  How does an ambassador to ORLAIS think that is a good thing to wear?

 

And ugh, the stupid swishy walking...  please make that go away.  I can't take my character seriously as she swishes her way through the envy demon's nightmare.

[Maverick827]

Out of curiosity why do you believe it's bad business to offend internet feminists?

Because they are vocal community that brings extremely bad press.

Look at what happened to Hatred.

A popular internet feminist goes on the Colbert Report and now that entire audience associates Dragon Age with misogyny.

A Barbie book was all over the news because in it, Barbie needed help from men to build an app.

It's a bad press machine that relies on bullying to shame products they don't agree with.

[Thiefy]

This reply is to counter these points for anyone else reading rather than this troll of a poster who I want nothing more to do with.

 

Every writer has an agenda, whether it's to make money, write a story,help a cause, etc, I care about this one as it means they may be less inclined to make what I want to buy.

 

Previous games had want I want then others shouldn't? a laughable point to make, we as customers buy these games because we want to, if what we like changed then we move, not continue to support them like a charity.

 

I have no idea what you are going on about in the last point               

"Previous games had want I want then others shouldn't?" - Because they wanted to tell a different story.

 

Last point - Certain "groups" wanted "sexier females"....like Morrigan. They then proceed to shame her for her sexiness.

 

Your whole post screams "cater to me Bioware, or else I'll take my business elsewhere." In which case, exit, stage left Snagglepuss. 

 

And lol on the idea that buying a game is the same as charity.

[Abyss108]

There's a bit of a difference between people saying there is a narrative trend across multiple games and maybe Bioware could mix up the stories a bit (what the LIs for women thread is saying), and people say the female LIs suck because they don't have their boobies hanging out and aren't hot enough to **** (what I've seen a lot of people in multiple other threads talking about).

 

There's another topic complaining that the women don't have their boobies out enough (that cleavage thread). I don't see any thread complaining that the men don't walk around with their dicks hanging out...

[AlanC9]

I'll print that and pin to a wall.
Just to remember how far we've fallen with the education of the youngsters.

Education of the youngsters? Buy a clue. My PnP group abandoned D&D in 1984, moving to better systems.

[Liveshiptrader]

Very interesting that just yesterday women were claiming in another thread (linked earlier in this discussion) that men get to complain all the time about things they want changed and no one ever comes to attack them for it.   I countered it there, and I'll counter it here, too.   Men have a right to comment that there is no LI suited to their particular tastes just as much as women do.  Many of us disagree, myself included, but I do think it's fair to say that DAI caters a bit more to female fanservice than male.   Is it a nice change, yeah.   But I'm also not opposed to men having something to look at, too.

 

Do I think that Cassandra and Josephine are ugly?  Not in the least.   Do I think, on the whole, that the women in DAI are less attractive than the men in DAI?  Yes.  Dorian and Cullen are both very conventionally attractive (and Dorian's ass is amazing).  And I also find Solas amazingly attractive, as unconventional as his look is.  I think all three of them appeal more to the standards of conventional beauty than either Cass, Josie, or Sera.  Doesn't mean I think they're ugly.  Just means I think the guys have a point.   I also think Josie's outfit is really doing her no favors.  How does an ambassador to ORLAIS think that is a good thing to wear?

 

And ugh, the stupid swishy walking...  please make that go away.  I can't take my character seriously as she swishes her way through the envy demon's nightmare.

 

Lol, I have made the same point a few times on Josies outfit, I am no fashion expert but even I can tell that colour combination is an abomination to the human eye palette, Darkspawn are easier on the eyes.

[whitless256]

Because they are vocal community that brings extremely bad press.

Look at what happened to Hatred.

A popular internet feminist goes on the Colbert Report and now that entire audience associates Dragon Age with misogyny.

A Barbie book was all over the news because in it, Barbie needed help from men to build an app.

It's a bad press machine that relies on bullying to shame products they don't agree with.

 

To be fair, in the Barbie book, she was supposed to be a computer programmer.  What computer programmer do you know that would go to the campus tech support guys to help her do her programming homework?  It was a dumb plotpoint.

 

There's a bit of a difference between people saying there is a narrative trend across multiple games and maybe Bioware could mix up the stories a bit (what the LIs for women thread is saying), and people say the female LIs suck because they don't have their boobies hanging out and aren't hot enough to **** (what I've seen a lot of people in multiple other threads talking about).

 

There's another topic complaining that the women don't have their boobies out enough (that cleavage thread). I don't see any thread complaining that the men don't walk around with their dicks hanging out...

 

Yes, but that's not what THIS topic was about.  The OP here did not request boobies.  So please take this argument to the boobie thread.   While yes, romance ultimately comes down to personality, often an initial attraction is what ignites the first spark.  If you're not at all attracted to someone, sometimes that just kills the romance.  This happens in real life, too.  

[Liveshiptrader]

"Previous games had want I want then others shouldn't?" - Because they wanted to tell a different story.

 

Last point - Certain "groups" wanted "sexier females"....like Morrigan. They then proceed to shame her for her sexiness.

 

Your whole post screams "cater to me Bioware, or else I'll take my business elsewhere." In which case, exit, stage left Snagglepuss. 

 

And lol on the idea that buying a game is the same as charity.

 

Poster assumed that I shamed Morrigan.

 

Insults me for common sense, if a something doesn't have what you like, don't buy it.

[alwaysquestions]

Do I think that Cassandra and Josephine are ugly?  Not in the least.   Do I think, on the whole, that the women in DAI are less attractive than the men in DAI?  Yes.  Dorian and Cullen are both very conventionally attractive (and Dorian's ass is amazing).  And I also find Solas amazingly attractive, as unconventional as his look is.  I think all three of them appeal more to the standards of conventional beauty than either Cass, Josie, or Sera.  Doesn't mean I think they're ugly.  Just means I think the guys have a point.   I also think Josie's outfit is really doing her no favors.  How does an ambassador to ORLAIS think that is a good thing to wear?

 

In what world are you living in where Solas appeals more to "standards of conventional beauty" than all of the women?

[Abyss108]

To be fair, in the Barbie book, she was supposed to be a computer programmer.  What computer programmer do you know that would go to the campus tech support guys to help her do her programming homework?  It was a dumb plotpoint.

 

 

Yes, but that's not what THIS topic was about.  The OP here did not request boobies.  So please take this argument to the boobie thread.   While yes, romance ultimately comes down to personality, often an initial attraction is what ignites the first spark.  If you're not at all attracted to someone, sometimes that just kills the romance.  This happens in real life, too.  

 

The topic is about the female LIs not being physically attractive enough. The reason people wanted boobs was because they find them attractive, so I think it's the same argument. This one encompasses other elements of physical attractiveness as well, but I think the points are closely related. They both want the female characters the meet a standard for beauty they have set. Whether it's boobs, or jaw shape, or whatever, it's all about making the female characters hotter.

 

It's true physical attractiveness plays a part of romance, but I didn't see any topics like this pop up when birdman Garrus and fishman Thane were created for the women. 

 

Agreed on the Barbie topic. The book is supposed to be about Barbie being a programmer. She does 0 programming, infects all her computers with viruses, and then claims all credit when other people fix it for her. I'm a programmer myself, if I went into work and did that, I'd be fired in a day!

[Akka le Vil]

I thought Sera, Leliana and Josephine were very "classic" beauties. If you mean that they lack sex appeal, I would disagree. Skin-tight clothing and/or naked skin is not required for a person to be sexy. (Frankly, the way the women in this game walk/run is rather.... swishy... if you take my meaning.)

Sera is a classic beauty ?

 

What have you smoked ? She's UGLY, and even if she were beautiful, it would certainly be the OPPOSITE of a "classical" one...

[daveliam]

I think that the fact that people are using the attractiveness of the males as an argument is telling.  I have seen dozens of posts about how terrible Dorian's moustache is and how it ruins his looks.  How Bull is a deformed monster.  How Solas looks like Nosferatu.  How Blackwall looks old, emaciated, and like someone's dad.  The only male who I haven't seen numerous posts disparaging his looks is Cullen, who is pretty much universally accepted as attractive (as much as any subjective opinion can be universally accepted, that is).

 

I think that all of the characters, except for Cullen and Leliana, were specifically designed to look more realistic, which means that they have some attractive and unattractive features.  It's a universal design choice.  It's not specific to female characters and it's not evidence of a massive conspiracy to please Anita Sarkeesian and her supporters, which is what people are insinuating.

[Maverick827]

To be fair, in the Barbie book, she was supposed to be a computer programmer.  What computer programmer do you know that would go to the campus tech support guys to help her do her programming homework?  It was a dumb plotpoint.

I really don't want to debate the plot of a Barbie book, but it encompasss a pet peeve of mine, so I will just this once.

I am a professional software developer. There are many things that I don't know about software and technology in general that I have to obtain help with. Software develolment is such a huge field that no one can really know everything. When it comes to removing viruses and making a computer/network secure, I'm useless if it doesn't involve pressing a "Scan my computer" button followed by a "Remove virus" button.

So in my opinion (and I'll pre-groan for the following statement here), there's absolutely nothing wrong with Barbie having to obtain help in fixing her computer.

If one of the two characters who helped her was female, there would have been no issue, and that is just mind-boggling to me. Some artist starts drawing a character and at some moment adds the few feminine details that makes it a women, and nothing happens. It's just another forgettable Barbie book. A butterfly on the other side of the planet flaps its wings and that same artist instead adds the few masculine details that makes the character a male, and suddenly my Facebook timeline is on fire.

[Thiefy]

Poster assumed that I shamed Morrigan.

 

Insults me for common sense, if a something doesn't have what you like, don't buy it.

Poster assumed I was speaking about him/her personally.

 

Attempts sarcasm when point flies over his/her head.

[Abyss108]

I really don't want to debate the plot of a Barbie book, but it encompasss a pet peeve of mine, so I will just this once.

I am a professional software developer. There are many things that I don't know about software and technology in general that I have to obtain help with. Software develolment is such a huge field that no one can really know everything. When it comes to removing viruses and making a computer/network secure, I'm useless if it doesn't involve pressing a "Scan my computer" button followed by a "Remove virus" button.

So in my opinion (and I'll pre-groan for the following statement here), there's absolutely nothing wrong with Barbie having to obtain help in fixing her computer.

If one of the two characters who helped her was female, there would have been no issue, and that is just mind-boggling to me. Some artist starts drawing a character and at some moment adds the few feminine details that makes it a women, and nothing happens. It's just another forgettable Barbie book. A butterfly on the other side of the planet flaps its wings and that same artist instead adds the few masculine details that makes the character a male, and suddenly my Facebook timeline is on fire.

 

I know you said you didn't want to debate this, but I have to point out that you have completely misrepresented the book and the point being made here. It isn't "Barbie the software engineer does software stuff and gets some help with it". That would be fine, the friends being male or female wouldn't matter.

 

In the book Barbie comes up with the IDEA for a game. And then when her friend asks her how she will make it she says "oh I won't be doing the programming, I'll get these other people to do that. I'm just coming up with the idea". And then other people do the programming. In a book which is specifically supposed to be about Barbie being a PROGRAMMER. 

 

I'm also a professional programmer, and know what I'm talking about. I would be laughed out of my job if I went in and said "oh no, I'm not actually doing programming I'll just come up with a few ideas for you"! 

[Maverick827]

Eh, the book referred to her as a "Software Engineer," which is a fairly meaningless title and could definitely refer to a design position. We have plenty of designers who don't or can't code.

Hell, the "dream job" of most people who want to make games is to design. You don't get to design and code unless you're working in a very small studio, which I suppose she would have been. But I don't expect a Barbie book to fully encompass those finer details of software development.

[Abyss108]

Eh, the book referred to her as a "Software Engineer," which is a fairly meaningless title and could definitely refer to a design position. We have plenty of designers who don't or can't code.

Hell, the "dream job" of most people who want to make games is to design. You don't get to design and code unless you're working in a very small studio, which I suppose she would have been. But I don't expect a Barbie book to fully encompass those finer details of software development.

 

I've certainly never seen Software Engineer refer to anything other than programming. If it CAN refer to "design" it isn't the usually understood definition of the word. Every job vacancy I've ever seen for an "engineer" has been purely interested in the programming aspect.

 

Maybe if the book was actually about her doing some design work it would be less awful, but it literally is just Barbie going "I''ve got a great idea teehee" on page one and then the entire book being about getting other people to do the work whilst making no effort to help herself.

 

This is probably getting really off topic though. We should probably drop it...