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Iron Bull & Dorian -- it's a problem (Spoilers)


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#1
Punahedan

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An issue was brought to my attention by a few friends regarding Iron Bull's behavior and eventual romance with Dorian if you romance neither. Understandably, a lot of it has not been seen by people because of the banter bug, or because they don't normally have that party composition, or whatever. But when you do see/hear all of it, it does not come off well. It comes off as abuse and harassment.

 

His advances are unwelcome, and they don't stop when Dorian expresses that he doesn't like it. Dorian then states that they first got together after getting drunk; through other dialogue with/from Dorian, it sounds like he has a drinking problem. The result is that it looks like Bull is trying to manipulate someone who is not in a position to consent. Even after they get together, Bull seems to get a laugh out of airing things to the group that Dorian does not feel comfortable sharing. Add to that the fact that Bull is a highly observant spy, and that Dorian has no clear reference for what a healthy relationship looks like (having never been in one before), it honestly looks like manipulation. 

 

This is furthered by Iron Bull's character being carried by bad writing of bisexuality (wait, no, sorry, pansexuality because apparently someone decided bisexual people are transphobic -- news to me!). One of the most harmful stereotypes for bi/pan people is that they're ready to bone whoever, whenever, wherever. False, rude, and something media continues to enforce with behaviors like Bull's. The only context it would make sense in is if he's presented as someone who has a problem with the excess -- which he's not. This form of "representation" is harmful, and a huge step back from the bisexual romances we got in DA2 (contrast with Josephine, who is an actual princess and perfect in every way, and exactly how a bisexual romance should go). 

 

Which is all really freaking unfortunate because with other characters, Bull is quite respectful. He's clearly capable of stopping when he needs to, because when Cassandra tells him to stop hitting on her, he apologizes and stops (the correct response is exactly that). He will tolerate no rudeness towards Krem for any reason, especially not because of transphobia (dialogue options that should not even have been present, but that's another issue). When Solas expresses his anger and hatred towards the Qun, Bull calmly and politely expresses that it's a complicated issue, showing that he's reasonable and capable of discussion even when he's being goaded and (heh) egged on. 

 

The biggest contrast is when Varric asks Bull for details on his relationship with the Inquisitor, he doesn't divulge any information at all. Why would he fling the doors wide open with Dorian? It makes no sense. 

 

Why did their relationship need to start while the one with the drinking problem was drunk, and not able to consent properly? Why Bull continue to make advances when Dorian was clearly uncomfortable? Would it have been such a big issue to have them bond over the social constraints they don't follow, over seeing they're not as different as the war between Tevinter and the Qunari would make them believe? Why was this necessary? It feels like someone was given a summary of his character and they tacked on those dialogues with only an arsenal of stereotypes and horrible romance movies. I don't know who wrote it. I don't care. It doesn't matter -- someone on the team should have caught what this looks like, because I don't think it was what was intended. 

 

As the only Qunari present in this game aside from the Inquisitor herself (who is only of the race, not of the nation), there's a lot resting on his admittedly massive shoulders -- as a character he will wind up representing a lot of what the Qun will believe, so even if he admits there are things he does not agree with, even if there are behaviors that are his own habits and not of the Qun, he's still going to be a product of that society. And we have no other perspectives. For the last three games, we've had only the military perspective. Now would have been the time to introduce more, and more than one at a time. 

 

Because Bull is our mouthpiece for the Qun and the Qunari, the lens from which we view that society, it becomes hard to separate those views from the character's development, and indeed leaves less screentime for the character to develop. And as with Solas, there's no option to really call him out on problematic behaviors. 

 

Ultimately, there are so many good moments in his characterization -- his enthusiasm for kicking dragon ass, his respect towards Vivienne and obeying her instructions, his relationship with the Chargers, his respect towards others' boundaries, his ability to put aside differences and embrace things that are in common (something he shares with Dorian, in fact!). That's why the presentation of the relationship with Dorian is so abruptly different and surprising and worrying. It's so far from the rest of his characterization that it seems thrown on in a hurry by someone unfamiliar with the character (and with bisexuals -- seriously, devs, what the hell? It's not like bisexuals are an endangered species....). 

 

There's already so little on the Qunari that what little is presented needs to be done carefully because it's an interesting, if controversial way of life (certainly not viable now, but in the past, where there are fewer personal freedoms to start with, it would be a sound choice). But we've been given no reason to care about what it has to offer or what the non-military segment of the population is like. 

 

I urge the writers to examine intercompanion romances more carefully in the future. Poorly done, they can spoil a character and even the whole group a character comes from. 


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#2
LightningPoodle

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eli5.gif

 

I'm sorry. It's clear you've put a lot of thought into this but I can't read all of it because it's all in sans serif and that is murder on my eyes in this quantity.


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#3
katerinafm

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....what the, first it showed two posts and now it deleted them. Agh.

 

Okay what I said was that if it wasn't fully consensual then Dorian would have stopped the relationship from advancing after the first drunk night since, you know, he's not drunk all the time. It's obvious from their banter if unromanced that there is sexual tension and chemistry there. Iron Bull teases Dorian, because that's what their dynamic is. Dorian acts all offended, and then you find out that the relationship is more than he lets on and won't even go back to Tevinter due to him and Iron Bull getting serious.

 

By seeing how Iron Bull's romance works, it's clear that he's a caring person. He sees what people need and gives it to them, and that's how he pleasures himself as well. He probably saw what Dorian needed and is exactly what he gave to him. Dorian probably enjoys a man who unapologetically tells the whole world that they're dating, since we know that he's had partners that have pushed him aside all his life.


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#4
veeia

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This was discussed in the Dorian thread awhile ago and had some really great posts, which I agreed with a lot. Worth looking it up, although if you're typing this off that tumblr post going around, then you already saw part of it I think.

I think there's a lot of room for interpretation in that relationship, as it comes out in just a few banters and comments, so I don't fault anyone who really loves it--because I can see how you'd fill in the gaps differently--but overall I'm very "...." on it, because it doesn't come across as very healthy to me, and I can get if they wanted to do a complicated dynamic, but...then you really need more space to explore it than in a handful of banters.
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#5
Wanderlust14

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You aren't the only person to have issues with this relationship. There has been a number of conversations on The Dorian thread about it and the general agreement was discomfort with the relationship and how it border on abusive. In fact, some people were uncomfortable with Bull and the Inquisitor because of his "I know best and that is the only way we will do it". Anyway, I agree the relationship is unhealthy. There is a way around it which is don't use them in the party together if you plan on not romancing either.
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#6
Ryzaki

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Not all relationships in this game are healthy (looking at you Celene and Briala) and if you want to avoid the romance triggering that's quite easy.

 

Also not sure why you being uncomfortable with a dialogue choice means it shouldn't exist. It's a choice. Don't take it.


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#7
Reznore57

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As much as I don't like Bull/Dorian romance ...there's never a moment when Dorian says "Bull , stop I'm not interested."

 

Now the thing that's totally twisted is that whole problem with Bull claiming "he knows what people needs " (and when you think it comes from being a spy who used to kill people and stuff , that's even more disturbing.)

Anyway I wish it wasn't written that way , saying to someone "I know what you need better than you do" is one of the worst thing I ever heard.It's about sex , no one should ever say that , without getting a good old slap in the face.

It makes my skin crawl , and I'm totally uncomfortable about the whole thing.

 

But anyway , we don't really know what the hell is going on between him and Dorian.So wtv.

Too bad we can't call the Bull on his Bulls*** though.


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#8
Lukas Trevelyan

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I'd have to agree. Dorian is one of my favorite game characters, and it makes me feel so uncomfortable knowing how his pairing with Iron Bull goes. Which also sucks because I don't do same sex romances and I definitely will not ever romance Bull. I'm tempted to completely skip recruiting Bull, I'm already uncomfortable enough as it is with his presence (personal preference, no offense to Bull or people who like him).


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#9
Punahedan

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Okay what I said was that if it wasn't fully consensual then Dorian would have stopped the relationship from advancing after the first drunk night since, you know, he's not drunk all the time. 

 

Except in abusive relationships, it's hard to speak up -- you can feel like you're just imagining things, or like this is what it's supposed to be like and you're just weak. Particularly if you've never been in an emotionally invested relationship before, it can be very hard to tell what's acceptable and what's not. Which, again, Dorian has not been in an emotional relationship, just physical ones that were swept under the rug very quickly. 

 

"You should have just walked away from it!" and "You should have said no!" are exactly things people say to victims of abuse. It's a lot more complicated from the inside, and things that seem clear to others are not for the person. 

 

Not all relationships in this game are healthy (looking at you Celene and Briala) and if you want to avoid the romance triggering that's quite easy.

 

Also not sure why you being uncomfortable with a dialogue choice means it shouldn't exist. It's a choice. Don't take it.

 

Between companions, I'm kind of hoping they'd be at least respectful. And yeah, Celene and Briala is a bad one, too, and should not be encouraged to resume, though for people who haven't read the book, I can see why. 

 

As for the dialogue choice -- I just don't really see why a transphobic choice should even be present. Mass Effect didn't let you **** on Steve for being gay -- why is the option there for Krem? I don't particularly want to give narrow-minded people more opportunity to speak their minds. 


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#10
Ryzaki

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Between companions, I'm kind of hoping they'd be at least respectful. And yeah, Celene and Briala is a bad one, too, and should not be encouraged to resume, though for people who haven't read the book, I can see why. 

 

As for the dialogue choice -- I just don't really see why a transphobic choice should even be present. Mass Effect didn't let you **** on Steve for being gay -- why is the option there for Krem? I don't particularly want to give narrow-minded people more opportunity to speak their minds. 

 

Eh I didn't find Isabela all that respectful of Fenris. But I ignored it.

 

Because in ME homosexuality isn't something new or strange? Where's the DA setting doesn't show transexuals as something common or accepted. That's why. Also two different games.

 

Also who the hell are you to tell someone how to make their character? The PC's able to say how he/she feels about it. Bull comments and the conversation moves on. It's very easy not to pick that choice if it bothers you.


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#11
veeia

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Re: Krem...Patrick owned up to that being a bad choice, and apologized on the Bioware blog. I agree it doesn't change that it was a bad decision and it doesn't erase it from the game, but it's great that he listened and owned that.


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#12
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Bull is the most deplorable character Bioware has written. And I already thought this before I knew these details. I don't recruit him, after my first run (which I didn't even finish). I tried to think that Dorian/Bull was a good idea... like it represented Tevinter/Qun getting along in a symbolic way. I guess not.

 

To each their own though.


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#13
Ryzaki

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Re: Krem...Patrick owned up to that being a bad choice, and apologized on the Bioware blog. I agree it doesn't change that it was a bad decision and it doesn't erase it from the game, but it's great that he listened and owned that.

 

Really? That's actually disappointing.


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#14
veeia

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Why do you think that's disappointing? 



#15
veeia

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Her'es the quote, btw. 

 

We are all proud to have brought Krem to life in the game, and seeing people in the genderqueer community respond positively to him has been wonderful. We are also listening to feedback on how we can improve with characters in the future. (For example, some trans folks feel I wrote the player choices to be too clueless or uninformed, and wished for options to speak from more personal experience. I’ve heard the feedback, and I intend to do better next time.) 

 

So not really an apology, I mispoke, but an acknowledgement.


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#16
Hellion Rex

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Re: Dorian and Bull, I disagree on it being abusive, entirely.

 

 

But, to each their own. I would think differently if Dorian told Bull to stop and that he was not interested.


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#17
Lukas Trevelyan

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Re: Krem...Patrick owned up to that being a bad choice, and apologized on the Bioware blog. I agree it doesn't change that it was a bad decision and it doesn't erase it from the game, but it's great that he listened and owned that.

is there a link?

 

EDIT: nevermind



#18
Mims

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I will admit, the way Bull approaches the romance with the Inquisitor did make me feel a little uncomfortable. I have nothing wrong with BDSM, but I don't feel like the Inquisitor even gets the chance to go against it. Bull just decides that is how your relationship is going to be.

 

I suppose I should listen to the Dorian/Bull stuff again. I always assumed they just had a slight edge because one was a Tevintar and one was a Qunari. Looks like there's more to it than that. 


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#19
veeia

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Yes, sorry. http://blog.bioware....s-krem-aclassi/



#20
katerinafm

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Except in abusive relationships, it's hard to speak up -- you can feel like you're just imagining things, or like this is what it's supposed to be like and you're just weak. Particularly if you've never been in an emotionally invested relationship before, it can be very hard to tell what's acceptable and what's not. Which, again, Dorian has not been in an emotional relationship, just physical ones that were swept under the rug very quickly. 

 

"You should have just walked away from it!" and "You should have said no!" are exactly things people say to victims of abuse. It's a lot more complicated from the inside, and things that seem clear to others are not for the person. 

 

 

 

Except Dorian never expresses discontent and only complains a bit about Bull sharing details? I think calling the relationship abusive is pretty premature o.O


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#21
Ryzaki

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Why do you think that's disappointing? 

 

Because for me at least that's just weak. I like being able to make rude cruel and/or manipulative characters and have the world react to it (negatively or positively). Having that decision made for me is irritating.

 

Edit: But judging from the bit you quoted it seemed he only wished there had been more "I know where you're coming" from choices and not simply taken away the misinformed clueless ones so I can get behind that. More POV are good.


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#22
Korva

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I didn't exactly feel comfortable about this when I first heard the banters on DanaDuchy's banter collection videos, yeah. It's exacerbated by the fact that the Iron Bull is so much bigger, heavier and stronger -- and into bondage and "dominance". Anything that remotely involves that crashes into abusive territory hard and fast without clear consent and respect, and many of Bull's lines feel sorely lacking in the latter. Publicly braying about violently "conquering" someone (or wanting to) is squicky as **** at best. Apparently this entire "what I say goes, and that includes public crudeness about you whether you like it or not" BS happens in the player romance too? I was too put off by his behavior to check out any videos on that.

 

Then there's the whole "insatiable bisexual" stereotype.

 

I'm ... okay with Bull without this angle, but it is what keeps me from really liking or trusting him. Meanwhile, I definitely like Dorian though he's not my favourite, and wish him a chance at a loving and committed relationship like he can apparently have with a male Inquisitor -- something he never dared to hope for, and that his fling with Iron Bull feels very far removed from.


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#23
Panda

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Bisexual usually means into two or more genders, pansexuality in other hand into all genders.



#24
Punahedan

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Eh I didn't find Isabela all that respectful of Fenris. But I ignored it.

 

Because in ME homosexuality isn't something new or strange? Where's the DA setting doesn't show transexuals as something common or accepted. That's why. Also two different games.

 

Also who the hell are you to tell someone how to make their character? The PC's able to say how he/she feels about it. Bull comments and the conversation moves on. It's very easy not to pick that choice if it bothers you.

 

I'm... someone that doesn't like seeing bigotry and unfounded phobias reinforced in the media I consume and support? Because most people wouldn't be choosing it for their character but for themselves, because they themselves are phobic, and the last thing I really care is to give jerks like that more avenues to express their hatred. But this isn't really the topic for that, as I said. 

 

Isabela and Fenris came together on their own terms, and Fenris doesn't say things that show he thinks she's gross and rude. Whereas... Dorian does. He makes disgusted, frustrated sounds whenever Iron Bull diverts the topic from something political to something objectifyingly sexual. He's actively grossed out. 

 

Bisexual usually means into two or more genders, pansexuality in other hand into all genders.

 

There's overlap between both. Bisexuality would be, in the broadest sense, "my gender and genders other than my own." This would include trans people. 

 

Either way, in both cases, there's no need for "endless sexual appetite, will bang anyone anytime anywhere" stereotyping. 


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#25
Panda

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I will admit, the way Bull approaches the romance with the Inquisitor did make me feel a little uncomfortable. I have nothing wrong with BDSM, but I don't feel like the Inquisitor even gets the chance to go against it. Bull just decides that is how your relationship is going to be.

 

Limits of games I think. I mean you can quite never decide in game which way your romance is going, game decides all cutscenes for you and which way it's developing, often only decision for player is saying yes to romance and all that is coming for it (sometimes you have to take all heart options to maintain the romance no matter how you feel) or then no to whole deal.

 

Of cource BW could branch the romances out even more so they would lead different ways and give more power to player but that would take more resources.