437 réponses à ce sujet

[Solbranthius]

I don't see an issue with their relationship. Even it did happen to be abusive, so what? Do we really need to stifle creativity and gritty realism in a game that is quite clearly branded as having mature themes? If you're so overly sensitive that you have to over-analyse every last little thing then maybe it's time to invest in a different genre instead of trying to push misguided agendas.

[sandalisthemaker]

^Lmao agenda.

 

You guy's called it!

[Ryzaki]

I know, right?  Why can't I get a thick, veiny gay agenda shoved down my throat.  I've been a good boy.....

 

[Madrict]

I like the fact that their relationship has these interesting dynamics. It keeps things fresh and it has a sense of realism about it.

 

Dorian is a big boy and if he didn't like it he would put a stop to it, he just likes to play the wounded party....it is part of his character.

 

All in all I approve of the Iron Bull/Dorian romance when I am not in fact romancing Dorian myself xD

 

People need to calm down with their nit picking and enjoy it for what it is. Everything always gets blown out of proportion.

 

Go forth and ride the bull Dorian!

 

EDIT: Even if their is a hint of abuse (I don't believe there is anyway), it is part of the story and their relationship. Stop trying to censor everything and let the writers do their jobs. This is a mature rated game dealing with mature themes........stop trying to squash creativity.

[sandalisthemaker]

 

 he just likes to play the wounded party....it is part of his character.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say that Dorian enjoys being in pain. Nor does he enjoy being pitied.

[Cindee]

Thank you, Ella, for starting this thread. I love Bull, I love Dorian, I love Patrick Weekes, I love David Gaider. As they spend so much time interacting with the community, I know as a player that their intentions as writers would have been initially been good ones. Unfortunately, I was pretty appalled to hear the party banter. It was such a negative dissonance to how Bull treats every other character in the party. Listen to how respectful Bull is to Vivienne! To the Inquisitor! To the other companions! If we're going to keep arguing that 'oh, it's just teasing' - look at Bull's relationship with Krem, or the rest of the Chargers. It's back-and-forth teasing, but always affectionate and respectful. Bull and Dorian may be like that in private, but the only time we see them interact is via party banter, so that's all we can go on as a player. The player's perspective is something the writers need to be aware of. When it comes to an unhealthy relationship, it shouldn't be left as something ambiguously playing out on the sidelines, or left up to a player's personal headcanon. 'Does Bull treat Dorian like ****? You get to decide!'

 

Dorian and Bull never have a cutscene together, we never see them directly interact outside of Dorian's initial cutscene (if you brought Bull). We have nothing to counterbalance the dynamic that is shown in banter. We see Dorian interact with Cullen the most, actually, and they have a teasing - but once again! - respectful relationship. We can see, as a player, that Dorian sometimes gets one over on Cullen, but Cullen can get him back. (Cullen knows he cheats at chess, for example.) Dorian enjoys Cullen's company. To see Dorian and Bull have even one cutscene like that would make such a difference. We needed to see them interact on even footing.

 

It's also disturbing to go through the emotional turmoil of Dorian's heartbreaking personal quest, to then see him get to this. For Dorian to end up with, at best, an unhealthy relationship . At worst, an emotionally abusive one. In some ways it's depressingly realistic considering what Dorian has been through, and is indeed what often happens in real life. I understand that.  Again, my issue is that is isn't something that should be left to optional party banter, and we shouldn't be needing to have this discussion on the ambiguity of their banter in the first place.

 

For people dismissing the complaints as fans not wanting to Bull to end up with Dorian - don't be absurd.  A respectful BDSM relationship between Bull and Dorian would have been wonderful. Representation of personal preferences in the bedroom is great! While I think Bull's version of BDSM disturbingly ended up being a lot more his way or the highway, we had an understanding of his perspective through his cutscenes and backstory. Dorian and Bull have both been through so much, and of course their relationship would have many issues to work through. I'm just shocked that Bull's treatment of Dorian turned out to be degradation and harassment.

 

You can't explore an unhealthy relationship and just leave it in party banter. There's too much ambiguity, as we're clearly experiencing here.  It's a incredibly negligent thing to do. If it was the intention of Bull to start harassing Dorian and deteriorate from there, well, apparently it's not so ambiguous.

 

I think what I'm most disturbed to see, over and over again, 'Dorian's a grown man, he can leave' or 'Dorian's a powerful mage, he can take care of himself'. Ignoring Bull/Dorian, ignoring what you think their relationship is or how it could be taken, that's an appalling view on how abusive relationships work. It's not that simple. That's why this discussion is important, even if you think Bull/Dorian is not considered as an abusive one. 
 

I'm also disappointed that the first two male companions that get together are in a potentially unhealthy relationship. (At David Gaider's admittance.) As people have mentioned, a lot of the DA gay/bisexual characters have been on the receiving end on unhealthy relationships: Leliana was emotionally abused and manipulated, and Isabella and Fenris went through a lot of physical and emotional abuse. (Zevran was mentioned as well?) Being able to reunite Celene and Briala was pretty disturbing as well, considering what Briala went through - and was also fairly flippantly done, now that I think about it.

 

At the end of the day, we shouldn't be needing to have this discussion. It should have been clear enough that Bull is just teasing Dorian, and not leading into harassment. For my part, I had hoped for a teasing but respectful relationship between the two, whilst understanding they would both have many personal issues to deal with. I certainly wasn't expecting Dorian to be on the receiving end of Fifty Shades of Grey with a touched of Blurred Lines.

 

There are lots of wonderful people saying lots of thoughtful and eloquent things in this thread, so thank you for that. Even for the people who don't agree, at least be aware of why players may be reacting this way. Abusive relationships are subtle and insidious, and can start exactly like the Bull/Dorian banter (and some of the Bull/Inquisitor conversations, unfortunately), regardless of the intention of the writers. 

[Incantrix]

These are completely fictional characters, it's best we take these fictional relationships with a grain of salt.

If Dorian didn't want the relationship, he would have said NO. He's a noble. He knows what he likes and what he wants.

By the end of the day. I'm not going to have my jimmies rustled with a harmless video game romance. I suggest you guys do the same.

[Cindee]

I like the fact that their relationship has these interesting dynamics. It keeps things fresh and it has a sense of realism about it.

 

Dorian is a big boy and if he didn't like it he would put a stop to it, he just likes to play the wounded party....it is part of his character.

 

All in all I approve of the Iron Bull/Dorian romance when I am not in fact romancing Dorian myself xD

 

People need to calm down with their nit picking and enjoy it for what it is. Everything always gets blown out of proportion.

 

Go forth and ride the bull Dorian!

 

EDIT: Even if their is a hint of abuse (I don't believe there is anyway), it is part of the story and their relationship. Stop trying to censor everything and let the writers do their jobs. This is a mature rated game dealing with mature themes........stop trying to squash creativity.

Whilst I understand what you're saying, there is a difference between squashing creativity, and dropping the ball with a hugely complex emotional issue. It is indeed important to explore these themes. It's even more important to not half-ass them as dialogue-only optional content. Once again, regardless of one's thoughts on Bull's and Dorian's relationship, in any abusive situation it's not as simple as being a big boy and putting a stop to it.

[nightscrawl]

Side note, Dorian references drinking sometimes, why do people think that makes him an alcoholic?

Seriously? There were two scenes with Fenris drinking and people commented all the time on the forums about how he was this raging alcoholic. People also say that Alistair is obsessed with cheese. Blowing things greatly out of proportion is what the BSN does.

[raging_monkey]

Seriously? There were two scenes with Fenris drinking and people commented all the time on the forums about how he was this raging alcoholic. People also say that Alistair is obsessed with cheese. Blowing things greatly out of proportion is what the BSN does.

so true its a bit sad. Some things are what they are notging good or bad

[Wanderlust14]

Whilst I understand what you're saying, there is a difference between squashing creativity, and dropping the ball with a hugely complex emotional issue. It is indeed important to explore these themes. It's even more important to not half-ass them as dialogue-only optional content. Once again, regardless of one's thoughts on Bull's and Dorian's relationship, in any abusive situation it's not as simple as being a big boy and putting a stop to it.

I totally agree and I am starting to become uncomfortable with this idea of 'he is a big boy who can leave anytime' in context of an unhealthy/abusive relationship. If it was so easy, you wouldn't see so many horrible cycles of abuse nor you wouldn't hear about people living with abuse for years before they found the courage to leave. This is has nothing to do with Dorian and Bull. I no way see it at this level, but just some of things people are starting to say about abusive relationships is just wrong.

[Madrict]

I do not believe their relationship is abusive at all.....but the point remains even if it was....so what?

 

It is part of the story and their character dynamic and should remain as is.

 

In such a gritty world it would be common place anyway. Lets not turn Thedas into My Little Pony Land.

[Cindee]

I was really surprised at the potentially alcoholic aspect to Dorian's character, actually. After you complete his personal quests, he talks about drowning his sorrows in alcohol. Bonding whilst in a romance will talk about drinking early together in the day - 'not that's stopped him before'. Talk about his separation from Alexius with the Venatori, and he seem to have spent a lot of time drinking in the interim before the Breach. Dorian talks about it in party banter, too, I remember Blackwall specifically.

 

Bull and Blackwall drink a lot, too, as do many other characters - but Dorian's drinking seems to be attached to the emotional issues he's working through, otherwise it wouldn't come up so frequently in dialogue. I know everyone periodically has a drink to drown their sorrows (don't we all?), but I think it was a deliberate decision on Gaider's part, or it wouldn't have come up so often. 

[Wanderlust14]

I was really surprised at the potentially alcoholic aspect to Dorian's character, actually. After you complete his personal quests, he talks about drowning his sorrows in alcohol. Bonding whilst in a romance will talk about drinking early together in the day - 'not that's stopped him before'. Talk about his separation from Alexius with the Venatori, and he seem to have spent a lot of time drinking in the interim before the Breach. Dorian talks about it in party banter, too, I remember Blackwall specifically.

 

Bull and Blackwall drink a lot, too, as do many other characters - but Dorian's drinking seems to be attached to the emotional issues he's working through, otherwise it wouldn't come up so frequently in dialogue. I know everyone periodically has a drink to drown their sorrows (don't we all?), but I think it was a deliberate decision on Gaider's part, or it wouldn't have come up so often. 

The Inquisitor even comments on his drinking if you bring him to the Winter Palace (telling him not to drink too much before the mission gets underway). So yeah, there is probably a problem there. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Urgh, don't make me think about him having a legit drinking problem now guys!!

[Precursor Meta]

I never really hear them conversing. I barely have bull in my party, the guy drops like a fly. I much prefer Cassandra.

[Hazegurl]

Yeah, there does seem to be a connection there. I can't call him an alcoholic, he's no falling down drunk. But he does take to the sauce more than the others which is why it's mentioned so much. Unless he's a High functioning alcoholic.

 

As for Fenris, I would hardly call him an alcoholic. He smashed the wine more than he drank it.  Such a waste.

[Fredward]

I'm not sure what the writers hoped to gain by putting this in the way they did, or what Gaider hopes to achieve by pointing out that it may not be a healthy relationship and "that's not necessarily bad." In what way would it be a good thing? In what way is subverting every good thing Bull introduces by making him extremely disrespectful of Dorian a good thing?

 

You mentioned something like this in the OP too, that transphobia or questions about it should not even have been in the game. Why is this? I imagine DG is saying that it's not necessarily a bad thing in the sense that unhealthy relationships happen in real life too, that it's a good thing that a game doesn't just show the happy/healthy kinds but also the opposites, acknowledging their existence without glorifying them. Do you not agree with this?

[Asakti]

While I am on the 'unhealthy, not abusive' side of the debate, I don't really like the idea that an abusive relationship should be seen as 'okay, because it is realistic'.  Rape and abuse shouldn't be tossed into things just to cause drama or create so-called realism.  Too often, I think it is just used as a way to validate this sort of thing - because elves, dwarves and fantasy really need abusive relationships in the background to make it real?

 

Edit: I should add I am already wanting to stab myself in the eye with some of the fanfiction that has been released with these elements (rape/abuse for shock) so that is colouring my opinion on the issue.

[Fredward]

While I am on the 'unhealthy, not abusive' side of the debate, I don't really like the idea that an abusive relationship should be seen as 'okay, because it is realistic'.  Rape and abuse shouldn't be tossed into things just to cause drama or create so-called realism.  Too often, I think it is just used as a way to validate this sort of thing - because elves, dwarves and fantasy really need abusive relationships in the background to make it real.

 

I agree that these things should not be used for base shock value. Which this is not. I do think they should be present as a natural extension of the world. Most RPGs seem to not want to make a world of dichotomies which means that these worlds need to be filled with both pleasant and unpleasant things, with unpleasant things done by people who are seen as pleasant. Because that's how life works, morality is not clearly limned boxes in the dark much as we seem to like to think so when it comes to our fictions. Does this mean all fiction has to have these elements? No since that depends on authorial intent but if an author says their world is as nuanced and complex as the real one the absence of such would be a flaw.

[Firecracker048]

I can't say I wholly agree with the premise of this thread. I mean, its a video game, in a fantasy relam. Things ain't going to be perfect, and this just screams of someone with way too much time on their hands creating something out of nothing(other that it being out of bulls normal character, which is a bit strange).

[Cindee]

I do not believe their relationship is abusive at all.....but the point remains even if it was....so what?

 

It is part of the story and their character dynamic and should remain as is.

 

In such a gritty world it would be common place anyway. Lets not turn Thedas into My Little Pony Land.

Agreeing so much on Asakti above, it's not something to be done lightly for 'realism'. On the hypothetical that Bull's and Dorian's was to be an abusive one, then do it properly, and don't make it ambiguous optional side content that leads it up to the player's interpretation. 'It could be abusive, it may not! We'll leave it up to you!' (Mind you, I'd rather have a dog **** in my breakfast than play through a version of the game. Horrible.) I mean, the writers need to be really clear about this sort of concept - just look at the reactions in this thread. Walk away from emotional abuse, it's so easy! These sorts of plots are something that shouldn't be done without exploring it considerably. What if people playing that go 'well, my partner treats me like Bull treats Dorian, but because the game never addresses the issue as a bad thing, and everyone loves Bull, it must be acceptable behaviour'? Again, important issues to explore, but you have to be so damn careful. 

Dorian's personal quest has been celebrated for the importance of representation for the LGBT community, and even talked about even in non-gaming communities. Many people play the games for Dorian, for Sera, for Bull, for Josie. It's a pretty big slap in the face for players to get a very rare source of positive representation, and to have that escapism taken away when he ends up in (continuing the hypothetical) abusive relationship. Sometimes people just need some escapism - that's pretty much video games as a medium in a nut shell, isn't it? People love Bioware games because they get to see LGBT treated with love and respect - which is something most may not get in day to day life. Taking on abuse is not something to be done lightly, and not something on a quick offhand. It's important to explore stories, but pick and choose very carefully, and think about the repercussions.
 

Really, though, it's a game where the world is saved by a glowing palm hand with a lot of (excuse the pun) narrative hand waving. I love Bioware, but the writers pick and choose the realism for Thedas. At the end of the day, Dragon Age Inquisition (a hell of a lot more so that Origins or DAII) is an pretty absurd power fantasy player game. People play them because you're the special snowflake Herald of Andraste with the magical hand that saves the world, with wonderful companions, stories and lore to spend time with. I'm personally still baffled that anyone in-game would make the player character a leader of such a large organisation, but you do as it's a necessary game mechanic, and we accept it. If we want to talk about realism, let's change how the main story is structured, before we talk about one romanceable character getting into an abusive relationship with another. 

[Fredward]

Walk away from emotional abuse, it's so easy!

 

Serious question time. I've never been in any kind of relationship, abusive or otherwise, so I would like some insight. Assuming you're an emotionally stable, psychologically sound, financially independent person why isn't  it that easy to walk away from emotional abuse?

 

Sometimes people just need some escapism - that's pretty much video games as a medium in a nut shell, isn't it?

 

Is it? If it is is that what it's supposed  to be?
 

[Nefla]

Bull is my favorite  I don't see his relationship with either the inquisitor or Dorian as abusive in any way. Heck I think Dorian is more abusive to the inquisitor than Bull is to either (not that I think Dorian's relationship with the inquisitor is actually abusive) Dorian is often disparaging and treats the inquisitor like he's an idiot and his "affectionate" last conversation with the inquisitor goes "you're incredibly dull and I hate you." People joke and express themselves in different ways and I think we as a modern society are to quick to cry "abuse!" "insult!" "racism!" "sexism!" etc...where none is present.

[Ryzaki]

First off no one's saying walking away from emotional abuse is easy.

 

But no one sane should be getting emotional attached to a freaking one night stand enough so they can't walk away.

 

Bull doesn't isolate Dorian, Dorian isn't dependent on Bull, Dorian doesn't even have a freaking history with Bull. That's why the whole "he can't walk away" strikes me as utterly absurd and laughable.

 

Is the relationship perfectly healthy? no. But calling it abuse based on some lewd rude banters boggles me.