437 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Bull is my favorite  I don't see his relationship with either the inquisitor or Dorian as abusive in any way. Heck I think Dorian is more abusive to the inquisitor than Bull is to either (not that I think Dorian's relationship with the inquisitor is actually abusive) Dorian is often disparaging and treats the inquisitor like he's an idiot and his "affectionate" last conversation with the inquisitor goes "you're incredibly dull and I hate you." People joke and express themselves in different ways and I think we as a modern society are to quick to cry "abuse!" "insult!" "racism!" "sexism!" etc...where none is present.

 

Oh god I thought I was the only person who thought this.

 

I just did his romance and a lot of the time I was just like "wow. You're pretty much a more ******* version of Fenris (with the snide remarks) without the woobieness and Snarky Hawke to make me less annoyed."

[Madrict]

As someone stated before, people with too much time on their hands construct these elaborate problems where there are none.

 

Based off a few lines of dialogue claiming their relationship is abusive is stupid. I certainly did not take it as abusive, I actually like the way they are snarky with each other.

 

Dorian is not a door mat.

[Hazegurl]

Bull is my favorite  I don't see his relationship with either the inquisitor or Dorian as abusive in any way. Heck I think Dorian is more abusive to the inquisitor than Bull is to either (not that I think Dorian's relationship with the inquisitor is actually abusive) Dorian is often disparaging and treats the inquisitor like he's an idiot and his "affectionate" last conversation with the inquisitor goes "you're incredibly dull and I hate you." People joke and express themselves in different ways and I think we as a modern society are to quick to cry "abuse!" "insult!" "racism!" "sexism!" etc...where none is present.

Actually Dorian means the opposite. It means "You're exciting and I love you." Like I said, ya gotta decipher Dorian cause he often says one thing yet means something else.  Expressing his feelings is not an easy thing to do for him, by the end the Inquisitor knows that which is why he smiled and replied "Anything else?" then Dorian says "I hope this ends soon." another lie.  He means "I hope this never ends."

[Nefla]

Actually Dorian means the opposite. It means "You're exciting and I love you." Like I said, ya gotta decipher Dorian cause he often says one thing yet means something else.  Expressing his feelings is not an easy thing to do for him, by the end the Inquisitor knows that which is why he smiled and replied "Anything else?" then Dorian says "I hope this ends soon." another lie.  He means "I hope this never ends."

I know, and I'm saying people use different words to express themselves. like Krem and IB trading little insults but it's really them joking and showing friendship.

[daveliam]

I adore that "You're incredibly dull and I hate you...." line from Dorian.  A man after my own heart, that one.  <swoon>

[Ryzaki]

I found that annoying myself. I don't appreciate word games.

[Hazegurl]

I know, and I'm saying people use different words to express themselves. like Krem and IB trading little insults but it's really them joking and showing friendship.

True, I actually like Krem and IB banter. Krem isn't embarrassed or wanting people to stop talking, he laughs and gives back. I love that about them. 

 

I found that annoying myself. I don't appreciate word games.

Understandable. I love that about Dorian but I can see how his lack of straight forwardness can wear thin.

[Not a Cat Doll]

The subtext of their shared banter reads as kind of theatrically classist to me, a la Lady Chatterley's Lover or an R-rated Hepburn/Tracy, wherein Dorian plays the role of the easily affronted highborn gentleman and IB is the sexy "savage" who melts through his mannered facade with his no-nonsense virility. It might be a dynamic that they mutually get off on- it sure seems that way.

 

I just don't see this particular pairing as worthy of the latest episode of "Villains and Victims," I guess.*shrug*

 

Bull is my favorite  I don't see his relationship with either the inquisitor or Dorian as abusive in any way. Heck I think Dorian is more abusive to the inquisitor than Bull is to either (not that I think Dorian's relationship with the inquisitor is actually abusive) Dorian is often disparaging and treats the inquisitor like he's an idiot and his "affectionate" last conversation with the inquisitor goes "you're incredibly dull and I hate you." People joke and express themselves in different ways and I think we as a modern society are to quick to cry "abuse!" "insult!" "racism!" "sexism!" etc...where none is present.

 Plus this, all of this.

[veeia]

I don't think its fair to say Isabela is doing the same thing to Fenris. Fenris likes the way she treats him, because she doesn't react to him like he's anything particularly special and terrible, like he's normal. It's means something to him that she just accepts him and gives him a hard time and you can see that coming out in their banters. Fenris desperately needs that normalcy, and Isa probably knows that too, because she's been through trauma too. He's surprised by it, but doesn't find it unpleasant.

Dorian does seem uncomfortable, and doesn't seem to translate that to happiness, IMO, not as overtly as Fenris does.

I'm not saying he's abused, just that it doesn't seem to work as well with him as if Bull did that to Fenris....I think he'd respond better.

...I did not just accidentally start shipping Bull/Fenris, I swear....

[Chari]

After reading their romance dialogues I went... WTF? WTF, Bull??? I get it, you are ben-hassrath and they're keen on making decisions for others but for Divinity's sake back off

It made me uncomfortable to simply watch his romance with the player but in case of Dorian it's so much worse

[Ryzaki]

I don't think its fair to say Isabela is doing the same thing to Fenris. Fenris likes the way she treats him, because she doesn't react to him like he's anything particularly special and terrible, like he's normal. It's means something to him that she just accepts him and gives him a hard time and you can see that coming out in their banters. Fenris desperately needs that normalcy, and Isa probably knows that too, because she's been through trauma too. He's surprised by it, but doesn't find it unpleasant.

Dorian does seem uncomfortable, and doesn't seem to translate that to happiness, IMO, not as overtly as Fenris does.

I'm not saying he's abused, just that it doesn't seem to work as well with him as if Bull did that to Fenris....I think he'd respond better.

...I did not just accidentally start shipping Bull/Fenris, I swear....

 

Really? Because he seemed quite exasperated to me in that "I was his bodyguard" conversation. Pretty sure he doesn't start flirting back with her til act 2.

 

Their banters also span years time period. Pretty sure Bull and Dorian don't get the same benefit.

 

That said I never argued Dorian and Bull's relationship was healthy. (Most of the DA relationships aren't that healthy) Merely that it wasn't abusive.

 

...sure you didn't. Sure you didn't.

 

But now you have me shipping it so...

[veeia]

Well, Fenris is always exasperated, lmao. But it didn't read to me as like "Ugh, why"  but more... "Oh, Isa." 

 

I think it's a similar dynamic, in that Isa kind of pushes him in weird places that might make people uncomfortable, but to me, it's made much clearer that he enjoys it, if that makes sense?

 

So if they had done that better with Dorian, then it wouldn't make me pause as much. I'm still percolating over it all though, so I'm not saying that my comfort with Isa/Fenris is a mark against IB/Dorian, just that it feels like a better written attempt at that kind of relationship. 

 

And nope, totally not shipping Iron Bull/Fenris. Totaly not thinking about how two traumatized warriors who both had pivotal experiences in Seheron and have difficulty living outside of a  life where they had no/less agency and hate Tevinter might relate to eachother. Totally not imagining IB poking at Fenris, and Fenris surprising him by giving a wry comment back. Noooope. Not at all. 

 

edit: yes, you're right about the time issue, for sure. 

[Ryzaki]

Well, Fenris is always exasperated, lmao. But it didn't read to me as like "Ugh, why"  but more... "Oh, Isa." 

 

I think it's a similar dynamic, in that Isa kind of pushes him in weird places that might make people uncomfortable, but to me, it's made much clearer that he enjoys it, if that makes sense?

 

So if they had done that better with Dorian, then it wouldn't make me pause as much. I'm still percolating over it all though, so I'm not saying that my comfort with Isa/Fenris is a mark against IB/Dorian, just that it feels like a better written attempt at that kind of relationship. 

 

And nope, totally not shipping Iron Bull/Fenris. Totaly not thinking about how two traumatized warriors who both had pivotal experiences in Seheron and have difficulty living outside of a  life where they had no/less agency and hate Tevinter might relate to eachother. Totally not imagining IB poking at Fenris, and Fenris surprising him by giving a wry comment back. Noooope. Not at all. 

 

I read it as ugh why myself so Especially given his reaction to his slavery the rest of the time. That and I find the Isa/Fen ship bleh. I wouldn't suggest it as abusive despite my distaste for it however.

 

I guess but again their relationship spans years. It's not like he starts flirting back with her in act 1. He doesn't even start sleeping with her til act 2 is over. They get years to develop their relationship. I highly doubt Bull and Dorian got the same amount of time.

 

Honestly just being able to ask Dorian if he was happy would've probably done it. But it's too late for that now obviously *shrug*

 

OMG. I hate and love you. I wonder if they'll let my Hawke join...Fenris can get possessive.

[Lady Lemonade]

Mhh, I actually didn't see Dorian being embarressed or unconfortable because of the comments IB makes. I thought his embaressment stems from being with a "savage beast" who can be crude and is very straight forward. That is why I think Dorian is ashamed of the relationship, less "Please stahp saying these embaressing things" and more "Why did it have to be someone like him?"

 

Also, maybe IB doesn't deal well with the idea of someone being ashamed of him. In the case of the Inquisitor he breaks it off, when he gets the vibe that our inky feels shame from the relationship:

So maybe with Dorian he teases him because,idk, he doesnt want to be his secret shame? Or wants to get back at him for it? Admittedly, maybe not the best way to go about it, but... well.

 

In any case, I didn't see it as an abusive relationship. Like, at all.

[Ryzaki]

Oh god that video.

 

My heart. I was happy I never chose that and now I never will D:

[veeia]

Fenris: I... the idea is not...undesirable, but I do not like the idea of inviting another into our bed. You are mine. 

Iron Bull: [raises eyebrow]

Fenris: [sighs] I have had little I can call my own, is it no surprise I fear losing it?

Iron Bull: Neither have I. Under the Qun, we have no possessions. 

Fenris: I am not under the Qun.

Iron Bull: [smirking] not right now, anyway.

Fenris: You are impossible! I--

Iron Bull: If you don't want this? No problem. But Kadan, you don't possess me, so you can't lose me. I am here. 

Fenris: I...alright. Let's get Hawke.

 

....I don't knwo what happened to me or this thread. Why do I always come into contentious threads and invent weird pairings or headcanons??? Anyway, YES RYZAKI, YOUR HAWKE CAN COME. At least he/she better come..ahha ha ha. I'm so sorry. 

[Ryzaki]

Don't be. I love it!

 

Oh man. Now I'm shipping it hard and I'm never gonna find many fics for it Why do I always fall in love with the ships that are hardly represented in fanfic? Every single fandom.

[veeia]

Don't be. I love it!

Oh man. Now I'm shipping it hard and I'm never gonna find many fics for it Why do I always fall in love with the ships that are hardly represented in fanfic? Every single fandom.

SAME. I love rare pairings, probably because I find the hypothetical dynamic of characters who haven't perhaps interacted as much a fascinating area for thought.

Like how Fenris is ashamed of his tattoos, and you'd think IB would be afraid of them--they're magic after all, but he's so comfortable with them, and it takes Fenris by surprise. Bull idly traces them with his fingers while they lay in bed, and when Fenris finally gets the nerve to ask him why he's not afraid, Bull just manages to grunt out "..pretty...." before he falls asleep.


...I'll stop when I'm ready ok. And I'm not ready. I have so many headcanons now. Damn this thread!

[InstantNoodlez]

I don't think even by the end of the game, do Dorian and Bull reach any true conclusion about their relationship. They are still both tentative, unsure, and trying something new. They are both still getting to know each other. It could either develop into something deep with mutual understanding, or the two could also just as easily part ways. We won't know until we see their tales come to conclusion. (For all we know Dorian could go home and get killed in a war table mission a few DLCs later by his peers from Tevinter. Or Bull could die fighting a dragon.) Unlike with the Inquisitor, where the length of the game is a restriction, and the romance has to come to some conclusion for the sake of telling a 'complete' romance to the hero (customer), their story is far from done.

 

I've always seen how they act in public about their relationship as more of a reflection of each their character, social background, upbringing, and how different they are in all these than anything else. Bull is always far more open about the sexual aspects of himself, while Dorian is used to be in hiding. And a spy turned mercenary does not adhere to the same social etiquettes as a high-borne noble. For all that talk about sexuality and bedroom preferences, let us not forget that the story of Inquisition is set in a highly classist society, which we as a modern and mostly western audience, are more removed from. (Sera at least got this right. There is a class struggle and huge class divides. Rise the farmers and workers of Thedas etc.!)

 

Are we sure some of our perceptions are not at least slightly swayed by jealousy on the Inquisitor's part? Cause I remember just as my char was trying to put the moves on Dorian, the Dorian + Bull romance banter triggered. And I went, damn it bioware! Dorian was kissing me, me! (The Inquisitor I find a rather bland character, a small window of sorts from which to peek at all the companions, but never quite his or her own person the way Hawke was.)

 

And are any of the companions or advisers truly good and sane? We are talking about a group of people, who suffer from a wide variety of issues and ills and personal defects despite their nobler aspects, fighting breaches in the sky, an ancient magician, scum bag politicians, Hinterland fetch quests and bears, all as a religious militia, while living on a planet filled with zombies. Full healthy relationships? What is that? In fact how is the Inquisitor's romance with any of the subordinates healthy? Dragon Age HR Complaints? Dragon Age My Date with Jesus? I am pretty sure if the living messiah of the continent's predominant religion starts to hit on me, I'd be Noping my way right out.

[Ryzaki]

SAME. I love rare pairings, probably because I find the hypothetical dynamic of characters who haven't perhaps interacted as much a fascinating area for thought.

Like how Fenris is ashamed of his tattoos, and you'd think IB would be afraid of them--they're magic after all, but he's so comfortable with them, and it takes Fenris by surprise. Bull idly traces them with his fingers while they lay in bed, and when Fenris finally gets the nerve to ask him why he's not afraid, Bull just manages to grunt out "..pretty...." before he falls asleep.


...I'll stop when I'm ready ok. And I'm not ready. I have so many headcanons now. Damn this thread!

 

Yes it's just so fun thinking of how they'd interact

 

D: now I want a picture and a fic. I wantz *cries and makes grabby hands*

 

WHY CAN'T YOU ART HANDS? WHY CAN'T YOU ARTZ?!?

 

No keep on sharing them. I wantz

[Cindee]

For me, the banter is waving the Very Much Not A Healthy Start to a relationship flag, and unfortunately triggers some alarm bells for something that could very easily turn emotionally abusive.  A relationship that starts on sexual harassment, disrespect and  constant boundary crossing is a bit of a gut punch after what Dorian went through on his personal quest. I wouldn't have been quite so shocked if there had even a line of banter from Bull to Dorian at the end - 'Hey, Dorian, I think I've been making you uncomfortable, and  I get that. I'll respect your wishes, and keep it between us from now on' would have showed some growth and understanding. Some much needed respect for Dorian, as well.

 

Yes, Dorian does have many snarky and disrespectful things to say to Bull, but he keeps the sexual aspect away from it. I still feel it's a constant power game between them that Dorian never wins, and it's not an equal back and forth. While that aligns with Bull's character and his backstory, I really, really don't think it was handled well for something we just hear snippets of in the background. 

 

A good example of equal verbal back and forth for me is Dorian and Blackwall. They're pretty horrible to each other. (I'm not even sure who started it.  Blackwall never has positive things to say about Dorian when you ask about your companions, but Dorian seems to be referring to him in various unflattering ways from the get go.)  After their personal quests, they finally seem to get a good understanding on each other and apologise. It's the resolution that makes it work, there's an arc. Dorian isn't comfortable with Bull's banter, and while he may respond positively in private, is not something we see as a player. It's opened-ended, and since is intended to be potentially unhealthy, you can understand why a lot of players would feel uncomfortable.

 

A cutscene or a few extra or changed lines of banter could have gone a long way. (Bonding and snarking at the bar, or something.) I really do understand where people are coming from in disagreeing that the banter is an issue, and think it's just a back and forth between them. Yet, I think the writers had such a fine line to walk with Dorian and Bull, and they weren't able to do it properly. I know both characters have been through a lot, and it would never have been as easy relationship, but I think a different route, with less accidental abusive overtones, would have been more appropriate. Bull's behaviour is pretty insidious, and it made me do a double-take on Bull and the Inquisitor as well.

[Shark17676]

I don't see an issue with their relationship. Even it did happen to be abusive, so what? Do we really need to stifle creativity and gritty realism in a game that is quite clearly branded as having mature themes? If you're so overly sensitive that you have to over-analyse every last little thing then maybe it's time to invest in a different genre instead of trying to push misguided agendas.

 

Very well said.  I'm glad more and more people are coming out of the woodwork with the courage to call this ridiculous thread out for what it is.

 

Folks, if you're truly that sensitive that you'll nitpick every last detail and create issues where there are none, you really shouldn't be playing this game.

 

Though, I get the distinct feeling that some people here are just using this thread to get in digs at Iron Bull just because they don't like him, which is a petty way to do it since OP's post was every bit an attack on the devs as it was on Bull's character.

[shadey]

hilarious that you have no problems with outright murdering everyone in this game on your way to completion, but oh no dorian as a full grown man might not be in a totally loving relationship is your moral concern. 

 

this is why bioware shouldn't listen to the tumblr types

[rapscallioness]

I haven't heard the banter. However, Dorian could be sounding embarrassed and all that because he does not want ppl knowing he's effing a qunari. (a qunari that is not the Player Inquisitor).

 

Happens all the time, too. Get a lil something "exotic" and "novel" on the side...but don't take them home to meet the Fam. Don't want the world to know you're slumming, right? Not with some filthy qunari oxman heathen..what was it he called Bull? A Savage? Where I come from that is sum really inflammatory and loaded terminology to be bandying about.

 

Like, I said though, I never heard any of that banter in my game and they're two of my fave characters so I do bring them to battle often. But I did want to point out that there may be other reason's Dorian sounds so embarrassed abt the topic coming up in public.

 

Tbh, BW can eliminate these so called inter-companion romance things as far as I'm concerned. I srsly do not care who the npc's are banging, or not banging. If they're not banging my PC, then I do not care abt their sex/romance life. At all.

[rapscallioness]

Very well said.  I'm glad more and more people are coming out of the woodwork with the courage to call this ridiculous thread out for what it is.

 

Folks, if you're truly that sensitive that you'll nitpick every last detail and create issues where there are none, you really shouldn't be playing this game.

 

Though, I get the distinct feeling that some people here are just using this thread to get in digs at Iron Bull just because they don't like him, which is a petty way to do it since this thread is also meant to be an attack on the devs.

 

No, I think there are some ppl in this thread that are genuinely creeped out by this, and they are sharing how it made them feel. Not everything is an agenda. Ppl should be able to talk abt what they see and hear and how they feel abt it without being dismissed.