437 réponses à ce sujet

[Shark17676]

No, I think there are some ppl in this thread that are genuinely creeped out by this, and they are sharing how it made them feel. Not everything is an agenda. Ppl should be able to talk abt what they see and hear and how they feel abt it without being dismissed.

 

There are discussions with legitimate concerns, but not this one.

 

OP has a clear agenda, what with her demonizing the devs and everyone who doesn't agree with her, and she's basically admitted to grinding her teeth that she didn't get the support or response that she was fishing for with this.

[rapscallioness]

There were other posters in this thread, too, and they did not have a clear agenda. They were simply creeped out by it. But either you, or the poster before called it "ridiculous". A" ridiculous thread". So now you, or whomever, just spit on the folks with legit issues abt it. Because you disagree with them.

 

edit for an edit: as far as OP goes, I'm not familiar with them, tbh. I think this is the first post I've ever read by them, or first thread....whatever.

[Shark17676]

There were other posters in this thread, too, and they did not have a clear agenda. They were simply creeped out by it. But either you, or the poster before called it "ridiculous". A" ridiculous thread". So now you, or whomever, just spit on the folks with legit issues abt it. Because you disagree with them.

 

edit for an edit: as far as OP goes, I'm not familiar with them, tbh. I think this is the first post I've ever read by them, or first thread....whatever.

 

I called it ridiculous because it is ridiculous, and I will fully admit to rolling my eyes at each and every one of them.

[rapscallioness]

 Man, see I'm not into the bdsm thing meself.  i had no idea until now--this thread--that Bull was into that. but i just rolled a qunari lady for the Bull. started hitting the heart icons when i could--just before the battle of haven right now.

 

omigosh

[rapscallioness]

I called it ridiculous because it is ridiculous, and I will fully admit to rolling my eyes at each and every one of them.

 

at each of the posters? all of them? you rolled your eyes at 12 pages of posters?

 

then you're no better than the OP.

[Shark17676]

at each of the posters? all of them? you rolled your eyes at 12 pages of posters?

 

then you're no better than the OP.

 

Perhaps I do stoop to her level...I never said that I didn't...but someone needs the courage to be the first to call a spade a spade, and those faceless people on the Internet, with nothing else better to do than work themselves up into a horribly offended frenzy over a fictitious romance that was clearly meant to be an adorable minor plot development on the side...if they get angry with me for it, then so be it.  I can't say it's any skin off my back.

[Firecracker048]

There were other posters in this thread, too, and they did not have a clear agenda. They were simply creeped out by it. But either you, or the poster before called it "ridiculous". A" ridiculous thread". So now you, or whomever, just spit on the folks with legit issues abt it. Because you disagree with them.

 

edit for an edit: as far as OP goes, I'm not familiar with them, tbh. I think this is the first post I've ever read by them, or first thread....whatever.

The original post was literally a copy/paste from a tumblr blog. OP did have an agenda to change the character and writing in a way that pleases them, but was, at the very least, annoyed that the devs did not change it to their liking. The only legitimate gripe in this thread is that the way Bull acts to Dorian is just out of his character with the way he talks/acts to everyone else in the game. The rest is people complaining that the game doesn't represent all facets of life in an accurate way(which, to be frank, it shouldn't because its a video game in a medievil fantasy relam, pretty much as far away from reality as you can get already).

[Firecracker048]

Gaider himself says it's not supposed to be "adorable" so what the eff are you smoking and can I have some?

 

What I find ridiculous is the snide, dismissive remarks to what have been mostly reasonable, well-reasoned and well explained posts about why some people find it creepy, and even abusive. Because someone finds questionable behavior to be creepy or triggering, but you don't, you get to dismiss them out of hand and belittle them for their feelings?

 

All this "Dorian is a grown man and would leave if he doesn't like it" is a bunch of dismissive, victim blaming bullshit. Grow up and have some damned compassion. My mother was abused, so **** the lot of you who say she'd just have left if she didn't like it. My sister was abused- she must have liked it, since she stayed with him for years? I was abused- I liked it too, right, having my feelings and personal space violated, and guilted into things I didn't want to do?

****** **** you.

And now we bring real-life into a video game discussion thread. Honestly I have seen any posts where people are spewing the vile and venom at op that you are pointing at the poster in your quote. If you want to get your point across, you should continue to do it in a civil manner, not telling the user to eff-off because you don't agree with their points as well.

[Shark17676]

And now we bring real-life into a video game discussion thread. Honestly I have seen any posts where people are spewing the vile and venom at op that you are pointing at the poster in your quote. If you want to get your point across, you should continue to do it in a civil manner, not telling the user to eff-off because you don't agree with their points as well.

 

I was gonna respond to this guy, but you said everything I wanted to, and probably more eloquently than I ever could.  Bravo. 

[InstantNoodlez]

If players are creeped out by the banter, perfectly fine. Different strokes for different folks. Different experiences from different folks too. But for the few who are saying the writers are doing it wrong? I cannot understand why must all the companions be respectable with respectable relationships just because players may develop personal attachments to them (just as planned)? Bioware is usually pretty aware of what they've made on the writing front, just look at Sera, never was an agreeable girl and all that.

 

You are in a game playing the head of a religious military organization, which is murdering its way across Thedas while saving it, and manipulating and strong-arming both the church and state, while you have the choice to hit on your subordinates and hirelings and the faithful and decide their fates, and the masses worship you as living Jesus.

 

Do the writers then also need to re-examine how the skulls of the tranquil were made into a fetch quest spanning across maps? Or how that one hunter in Hinterlands shot a templar who was violating the body of a dying girl? Or the initiation ritual of the Chevaliers? Or the horrible choices we have in picking a ruler out of three scum bags to rule over a suffering nation? DA is not a happy story.

 

I am more creeped out by what the Inquisition, if left unchecked, could one day become, given exactly what type of society it grew out of. It is spearheaded not always by the most morale people, and associates not always with nice guys. All that power in one place. It is good now with a common great enemy. But what after? Will people simply put down their swords, or would we have another corrupt 'templar' order on our hands? I do want a DLC addressing that at least, what happens after the happily ever after? What happens after evil is vanquished?

[Hazegurl]

@InstantNoodlez, Easy, My Inquisitor does this:

[InstantNoodlez]

@InstantNoodlez, Easy, My Inquisitor does this:

cut

 

But what comes after? Even the Inquisitor is but a mortal man/elf/dwarf/qunari doomed to die.

 

I can easily see another younger Vivienne-type sneaking themselves into the Inquisition, gain trust and power, and take over for their own purposes after the Inquisitor is dead of old age/disappears because it is a new game and we have new characters for new games for the DA franchise. The organization may not be as powerful due to the lack of a living herald, but the chantry did fine with a dead andraste.

[Shark17676]

But what comes after? Even the Inquisitor is but a mortal man/elf/dwarf/qunari doomed to die.

 

I can easily see another younger Vivienne-type sneaking themselves into the Inquisition, gain trust and power, and take over for their own purposes after the Inquisitor is dead of old age/disappears because it is a new game and we have new characters for new games for the DA franchise. The organization may not be as powerful due to the lack of a living herald, but the chantry did fine with a dead andraste.

 

Exactly what I've been thinking.  The Inquisition is currently the most powerful and well-connected organization in the known world.  Corruption is inevitable.

[Ryzaki]

Gaider himself says it's not supposed to be "adorable" so what the eff are you smoking and can I have some?

 

What I find ridiculous is the snide, dismissive remarks to what have been mostly reasonable, well-reasoned and well explained posts about why some people find it creepy, and even abusive. Because someone finds questionable behavior to be creepy or triggering, but you don't, you get to dismiss them out of hand and belittle them for their feelings?

 

All this "Dorian is a grown man and would leave if he doesn't like it" is a bunch of dismissive, victim blaming bullshit. Grow up and have some damned compassion. My mother was abused, so **** the lot of you who say she'd just have left if she didn't like it. My sister was abused- she must have liked it, since she stayed with him for years? I was abused- I liked it too, right, having my feelings and personal space violated, and guilted into things I didn't want to do?

****** **** you.

 

*sigh* So these people were in a one night stand relationship when the abuse started? Or no? Because I highly highly doubt anyone sane and mature would let a one night stand that already started off with behavior they find unacceptable escalate.

 

And believe me the snide "oh you clearly don't know what abuse is! Or I hope no one who's been abused comes to you!" is just as idiotic from the other side especially ignoring that ****** Bull acts abusive with no one (hell we have codexes of noble ladies giggling about his prowess and bed and giving recommendations) but for some reason he goes full Krogan when it's Dorian's time to get screwed.

[AshesEleven]

So OP, I have one issue with your post, which is the idea that bisexuals -can't- be portrayed as insatiable sex fiends.  That's not a harmful image by itself, and indeed, I think it would be more harmful if it weren't portrayed at all.  The harmfulness comes when every bisexual in media is portrayed that way, but that's a societal problem of how we see bisexuals.  We have Josephine who, as you said, is very much NOT the ravenous sex monster who devours the naked flesh of both men and women.  I don't think they're perpetuating a stereotype if one of the two bi/pan characters isn't what you'd expect to see.  

 

Bioware created a character who loves sex and is very confident and suave.  Kinda like the Oberyn Martell of Dragon Age, I suppose, and while that may seem harmful, due to it reinforcing an existing stereotype, it seems counterproductive to try and pretend that there aren't people who follow the stereotype.  Because there ARE bisexuals who are Oberyns or Bulls, and they should not be ashamed or have to change themselves, and they deserve to have representation as well.  We shouldn't be removing these kinds of characters, we should be adding new kinds of characters who happen to be bisexual, and Bioware has done that, because like you said, Josephine is different.  

[Medhia_Nox]

People think it's BDSM because he has a "safe word" (which he doesn't call a safe word - I forget his terminology for "Katoh")

 

Yes, he says: "I'll never hurt you.. blah blah." 

 

You know what I hear from Bull?  "I'm the top, because you really need a top in this relationship because you're the boss all your freaking life and you need some place you can 'let go' ".

 

It makes absolutely perfect sense he's not interested in deviating from this... because the beginning of his relationship with you is business.  He's just pleasuring you because it's what he believes you need.

 

Someone on here said you can't call Bull out on this... but you can.

 

You call him out... when you hand him the dragontooth necklace and he doesn't really know how to take it at first.  But you REALLY call him out if you tell him that "he" not "the sex" is what helps you get through the day. 

 

The man came from a place where acts of sex are mechanical.. he tells you this over, and over, and over.  From Haven to the bed-room. You initiate his romance by flirting so clearly you "want him". He submits, not out of love, but out of duty to his leader and the desire to give people what they need.  He tells you this in Haven, when someone wants to get off in the Qunari... they just get it done by a team mate.  If you find that creepy - why are you pressing the heart options?

 

If people wanted something other than this - they should have said: "No."  Pursuing the relationship leaves no excuse for how uncomfortable you are.  You chose to be uncomfortable for some reason (I'm betting it's the pecs.)

 

As for his relationship with Dorian... do abusive people often discuss their relationships in front of their friends?  I bet they don't.  Dorian is a bombastic dandy who blurts out his every life issue as it is... I find it REALLY difficult to believe he'd have a problem with Bull kissing and telling.  I mean - he does love "The rumors" between he and the Inquisitor after all. 

[Ryzaki]

Also the victim blaming **** is really starting to feel like a goddamn smokescreen people try to hide behind to "win" the argument. Bull's predatory behaviors outside of being crude are what exactly? Does he talk down to Dorian? Belittle his cause and self? No one's saying anyone can't be abused either so I'm not sure where that ****** strawman came from. But generally speaking most sane people aren't going to stick around with someone who started as an ******* from the jump. Dorian who freaking orders a ship to go back home if he dislikes the Inquisitor enough.

 

Where does Bull supposedly victimize Dorian? saying some embarrassing things isn't victimization I'm sad to say. Especially not when Dorian lobbies calling Bull a brute and savage right back at him with the Yeah I might be back later...or I might not.

 

The one person who actually breaks Dorian down is freaking Cole.

 

The relationship being unhealthy? Yep I definitely agree with that. Abusive is once again where I draw the line. It diminishes both characters.

 

Bull has plenty of flaws without people to drag crap out their rear.

[Hellion Rex]

People think it's BDSM because he has a "safe word" (which he doesn't call a safe word - I forget his terminology for "Katoh")

Yes, he says: "I'll never hurt you.. blah blah."

You know what I hear from Bull? "I'm the top, because you really need a top in this relationship because you're the boss all your freaking life and you need some place you can 'let go' ".

It makes absolutely perfect sense he's not interested in deviating from this... because the beginning of his relationship with you is business. He's just pleasuring you because it's what he believes you need.

Someone on here said you can't call Bull out on this... but you can.

You call him out... when you hand him the dragontooth necklace and he doesn't really know how to take it at first. But you REALLY call him out if you tell him that "he" not "the sex" is what helps you get through the day.

The man came from a place where acts of sex are mechanical.. he tells you this over, and over, and over. From Haven to the bed-room. You initiate his romance by flirting so clearly you "want him". He submits, not out of love, but out of duty to his leader and the desire to give people what they need. He tells you this in Haven, when someone wants to get off in the Qunari... they just get it done by a team mate. If you find that creepy - why are you pressing the heart options?

If people wanted something other than this - they should have said: "No." Pursuing the relationship leaves no excuse for how uncomfortable you are. You chose to be uncomfortable for some reason (I'm betting it's the pecs.)

As for his relationship with Dorian... do abusive people often discuss their relationships in front of their friends? I bet they don't. Dorian is a bombastic dandy who blurts out his every life issue as it is... I find it REALLY difficult to believe he'd have a problem with Bull kissing and telling. I mean - he does love "The rumors" between he and the Inquisitor after all.

Like.

[Hellion Rex]

Also the victim blaming **** is really starting to feel like a goddamn smokescreen people try to hide behind to "win" the argument. Bull's predatory behaviors outside of being crude are what exactly? Does he talk down to Dorian? Belittle his cause and self? No one's saying anyone can't be abused either so I'm not sure where that ****** strawman came from. But generally speaking most sane people aren't going to stick around with someone who started as an ******* from the jump. Dorian who freaking orders a ship to go back home if he dislikes the Inquisitor enough.

Where does Bull supposedly victimize Dorian? saying some embarrassing things isn't victimization I'm sad to say. Especially not when Dorian lobbies calling Bull a brute and savage right back at him with the Yeah I might be back later...or I might not.

The one person who actually breaks Dorian down is freaking Cole.

The relationship being unhealthy? Yep I definitely agree with that. Abusive is once again where I draw the line. It diminishes both characters.

Bull has plenty of flaws without people to drag crap out their rear.

Like.

[Shark17676]

Also the victim blaming **** is really starting to feel like a goddamn smokescreen people try to hide behind to "win" the argument. Bull's predatory behaviors outside of being crude are what exactly? Does he talk down to Dorian? Belittle his cause and self? No one's saying anyone can't be abused either so I'm not sure where that ****** strawman came from. But generally speaking most sane people aren't going to stick around with someone who started as an ******* from the jump. Dorian who freaking orders a ship to go back home if he dislikes the Inquisitor enough.

 

Where does Bull supposedly victimize Dorian? saying some embarrassing things isn't victimization I'm sad to say. Especially not when Dorian lobbies calling Bull a brute and savage right back at him with the Yeah I might be back later...or I might not.

 

The one person who actually breaks Dorian down is freaking Cole.

 

The relationship being unhealthy? Yep I definitely agree with that. Abusive is once again where I draw the line. It diminishes both characters.

 

Bull has plenty of flaws without people to drag crap out their rear.

 

^ Truth.

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but other than an Inquisitor who cares about Dorian's personal problems, and Cole who tries to help Dorian in his own good-intentioned but mentally invasive way, Iron Bull is the only one who comforts him after the situation with his father.

 

But what do I know?  Bull was obviously playing on Dorian's emotions so he could move in and start his horribly abusive relationship with Dorian...or so one can spin it, at least.

[Fredward]

Okay seriously. I need to get this thing about victim blaming out of my system or spontaneously combust. Putting it in spoiler tags since it might upset some people and is maybe not WHOLLY on topic. It's also kinda long.

 

Spoiler

Maybe my idea of what it entails is fundamentally different from some of those here. But I see victim blaming as holding the person who got drunk and then gang raped as responsible for that rape because they shouldn't have gotten drunk, so they must have been asking for it. Same goes for women who dress provocatively 'she must have been asking for it, otherwise why dress that way?' Or when you hold a housewife responsible for being beaten after years of marriage because 'she should've just divorced' when she might have been tied to the marriage through extraneous reasons like religious guilt or financial dependence or for the sake of her children.

 

What victim blaming is NOT, in my book, is a way to field your own emotional responsibility. If you are an adult and are independent financially and your are emotionally sound and have no mental disorders and you are in no way being coerced into staying in the relationship (I'm talking about threats of suicide, outright blackmail, threats of physical violence etc) and you continue to stay in a relationship you see as abusive you ARE responsible for that decision. I mean, who else? Your partner for 'making' you feel attached to them? Your parents for not giving you enough hugs as a child and now you have a shitty attachment style? Some inchoate nebulous [but somehow external] guilt that makes you not want to leave?

 

"I am in an unfortunate position. I recognize that I am in an unfortunate position. I have the tools to get out of this unfortunate position and am not being forced to stay through forces outside of myself. I recognize I have the tools to extricate myself from this situation and that the emotional ties are largely my own responsibility but no, I do not deign to acknowledge my own role in my continuing unhappiness. Why would I choose to be unhappy? This MUST be the work of someone else."

 

I do not get this. It makes no sense to my brain. You can keep passing the emotional buck until your eyes spin but at some point you have to recognize that you play a role in your continuing unhappiness IF you choose to stay there and do nothing about it.

 

Now, my point? I actually do have one. Calling it 'victim blaming' if we question why Dorian does not simply leave IF HE IS UNHAPPY does not make sense. He is independent. As far as we know he has no mental or emotional disorders. He IS a bit naive when it comes to relationships but inexperience does not mean he will willingly sign up, and continue to be in a relationship, he does not like. Bull is not manipulating him, he makes it painstakingly clear what he wants out of the relationship.

 

Now, there are two camps in this thread. One is saying that this is happy (not necessarily healthy, see my earlier post on how I see the relationship if you're curious, relationship) dom/sub relationship, standard protocol so to speak and that is why Bull is being a dick. The other camp is saying Bull is being a dick and that makes it abusive [and Dorian a victim] and the dom/sub thing is irrelevant to that. Now the problem with that (Dorian being a victim) is that unless someone could point out where he is is somehow dependent on Bull (outside of the context of the relationship) or that Dorian has some emotional or mental issue that literally renders him incapable of making his own decisions he is literally his own prisoner. He 'chooses' to be there in the sense that whatever his OWN issues are keeping him there, in a relationship he is actively unhappy with and might see as abusive himself, not any external pressures or forces. And it his 'fault' in the sense that he does not work through them and move on and instead chooses to stagnate and blame other people and things for the situation and wait, presumably, for external rescue.

 

Which I have difficulty believing because that is not the kind of person I see Dorian as being. Though I am more than willing to listen to alternatives as to why he is that kind of person. You are responsible for your own emotional baggage, no one else should be expected to shoulder that FOR you.

 

OR

 

We can assume that Dorian is in a consensual (not necessarily healthy) relationship with Bull. That is not abuse. Because he chooses to stay. And he chooses to stay because it does not make him actively unhappy. Instead of divesting him of that autonomy of thought and feeling and saying 'no Dory, you're not in charge of your emotions some nebulous other is and is MAKING YOU STAY.'

 

I feel much better now. Try not to kill each other folks.

[Firecracker048]

If players are creeped out by the banter, perfectly fine. Different strokes for different folks. Different experiences from different folks too. But for the few who are saying the writers are doing it wrong? I cannot understand why must all the companions be respectable with respectable relationships just because players may develop personal attachments to them (just as planned)? Bioware is usually pretty aware of what they've made on the writing front, just look at Sera, never was an agreeable girl and all that.

 

You are in a game playing the head of a religious military organization, which is murdering its way across Thedas while saving it, and manipulating and strong-arming both the church and state, while you have the choice to hit on your subordinates and hirelings and the faithful and decide their fates, and the masses worship you as living Jesus.

 

Do the writers then also need to re-examine how the skulls of the tranquil were made into a fetch quest spanning across maps? Or how that one hunter in Hinterlands shot a templar who was violating the body of a dying girl? Or the initiation ritual of the Chevaliers? Or the horrible choices we have in picking a ruler out of three scum bags to rule over a suffering nation? DA is not a happy story.

 

I am more creeped out by what the Inquisition, if left unchecked, could one day become, given exactly what type of society it grew out of. It is spearheaded not always by the most morale people, and associates not always with nice guys. All that power in one place. It is good now with a common great enemy. But what after? Will people simply put down their swords, or would we have another corrupt 'templar' order on our hands? I do want a DLC addressing that at least, what happens after the happily ever after? What happens after evil is vanquished?

Very well thought out post. Your points are very well thought out, good job! You made all the points that I was trying to make, but more thought-out.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

People think it's BDSM because he has a "safe word" (which he doesn't call a safe word - I forget his terminology for "Katoh")

 

Yes, he says: "I'll never hurt you.. blah blah." 

 

You know what I hear from Bull?  "I'm the top, because you really need a top in this relationship because you're the boss all your freaking life and you need some place you can 'let go' ".

 

It makes absolutely perfect sense he's not interested in deviating from this... because the beginning of his relationship with you is business.  He's just pleasuring you because it's what he believes you need.

 

Someone on here said you can't call Bull out on this... but you can.

 

You call him out... when you hand him the dragontooth necklace and he doesn't really know how to take it at first.  But you REALLY call him out if you tell him that "he" not "the sex" is what helps you get through the day. 

 

The man came from a place where acts of sex are mechanical.. he tells you this over, and over, and over.  From Haven to the bed-room. You initiate his romance by flirting so clearly you "want him". He submits, not out of love, but out of duty to his leader and the desire to give people what they need.  He tells you this in Haven, when someone wants to get off in the Qunari... they just get it done by a team mate.  If you find that creepy - why are you pressing the heart options?

 

If people wanted something other than this - they should have said: "No."  Pursuing the relationship leaves no excuse for how uncomfortable you are.  You chose to be uncomfortable for some reason (I'm betting it's the pecs.)

 

As for his relationship with Dorian... do abusive people often discuss their relationships in front of their friends?  I bet they don't.  Dorian is a bombastic dandy who blurts out his every life issue as it is... I find it REALLY difficult to believe he'd have a problem with Bull kissing and telling.  I mean - he does love "The rumors" between he and the Inquisitor after all. 

Except he literally puts up a fuss every time Bull does it and then Bull tells him to can it and continues to keeps doing it despite his protestations.

 

And he doesn't "love" the rumors, he frets over them. Obsesses over them because he thinks he's dragging the Inquisitor's reputation down by proximity.

 

I like how people while analyze Bull's characterization to death and find motivations for every little thing he does, but completely ignore Dorian's and the absolute 180 turn Dorian takes around Bull.

[Hazegurl]

But what comes after? Even the Inquisitor is but a mortal man/elf/dwarf/qunari doomed to die.

 

I can easily see another younger Vivienne-type sneaking themselves into the Inquisition, gain trust and power, and take over for their own purposes after the Inquisitor is dead of old age/disappears because it is a new game and we have new characters for new games for the DA franchise. The organization may not be as powerful due to the lack of a living herald, but the chantry did fine with a dead andraste.

My quizzy drank from the Well. It isn't clear if his life is eternal or not. Abelas says that when the years of those bound to Mythal are over they pass their knowledge on yet Flemeth and Solas keep saying it's eternal. I'll go with Flem and Solas and headcanon that my Quizzy is immortal. If a new person does come around it'll most likely be himself pretending to be someone new. Most of the people don't even know what the Quizzy looks like judging from the IB scene.

 

If a Viv type did come along my Quizzy would most likely pass it on to them anyway if he did die. By then, whocares what they do with the organization.  IB isn't my favorite character but he's right when it says that being a leader is all about who's willing to do the job. I'd rather pass the Inquisition to some sneaky bastard who wants it than some reluctant hero.