437 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Except he literally puts up a fuss every time Bull does it and then Bull tells him to can it and continues to keeps doing it despite his protestations.

 

And he doesn't "love" the rumors, he frets over them. Obsesses over them because he thinks he's dragging the Inquisitor's reputation down by proximity.

 

I like how people while analyze Bull's characterization to death and find motivations for every little thing he does, but completely ignore Dorian's and the absolute 180 turn Dorian takes around Bull.

 

Where is Bull telling him to can it?

 

Can I get a banter link?

[Shark17676]

Except he literally puts up a fuss every time Bull does it and then Bull tells him to can it and continues to keeps doing it despite his protestations.

 

And he doesn't "love" the rumors, he frets over them. Obsesses over them because he thinks he's dragging the Inquisitor's reputation down by proximity.

 

I like how people while analyze Bull's characterization to death and find motivations for every little thing he does, but completely ignore Dorian's and the absolute 180 turn Dorian takes around Bull.

 

Once again, this is all your own personal interpretation of the situation.

 

Myself, all I saw was playful ribbing of each other.  I won't claim to know the innermost feelings of a fictional character's mind better than you do, but having a character who's gotten close to Dorian and romanced him, he is not the type to put up with bull (pun unintended) that truly offends him.

 

It's why he left home in the first place, after all.

 

It's why he will immediately leave the Inquisition if you punch him (which is possible even if you're in a romance with him).

 

If he truly hated it, he'd have a "little side chat" with IB and put an end to it.  Having also gotten close to Bull, he would absolutely respect Dorian's concerns.

 

Oh, wait.  This is victim blaming...somehow.

 

ETA:  And yeah, as someone who's heard the entirety of their romance banter, Bull telling Dorian to "can it" is a blatant falsehood.

 

ETA 2:  "Don't top from the bottom" was, to me anyway, another obvious instance of playful ribbing between the two.

 

Honestly, if some of you folks ever met a married couple I know, if you truly believe in the things you say, you'd be pulling her aside to convince her to divorce immediately (and then be promptly laughed at).  Their relationship is strikingly similar to Bull & Dorian's in that one tends to not have a filter while the other sighs and snarks at him in retaliation...and you know what?  It's all fun -- nothing abusive about it  Maybe just stop and think that that's how a quirky romantic relationship can work and there's no deeper, sinister machinations going on.

 

ETA 3:  And yes, I know them both very well.  We've all known each other since junior high (which was longer ago than I care to think about).  I will tell you one thing -- any real abuse happens, on either end, and they'd be gone so fast it'd make the other's head spin.

[Medhia_Nox]

Also - there's this little thing about Dorian where he looses his **** because his father "TRIES TO ABUSE HIM WITH BLOOD MAGIC."

 

You think he's every going to let someone mind control him... he may be a good man, but he STILL a Tevinter freak'n mage... who was groomed and destined to be a magister.. who had the strength to:

1)  Stand up to his father, his country, and his status and say: "NO"

2)  Stand up against his mentor Alexius and say "NO" by helping the Inquisitor.

 

But now, he's going to allow himself to be abused by a qunari? 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Where is Bull telling him to can it?

 

Can I get a banter link?

Varric brings up their relationship, Dorian tells him it's none of his business, Bull keeps egging Varric on about and tells Dorian to "stop topping from the bottom."

[Hazegurl]

Except he literally puts up a fuss every time Bull does it and then Bull tells him to can it and continues to keeps doing it despite his protestations.

 

And he doesn't "love" the rumors, he frets over them. Obsesses over them because he thinks he's dragging the Inquisitor's reputation down by proximity.

 

I like how people while analyze Bull's characterization to death and find motivations for every little thing he does, but completely ignore Dorian's and the absolute 180 turn Dorian takes around Bull.

I agree, some people want everyone to accept IB's characterization seen through their eyes alone then hand waves any other opinions on Dorian cause it doesn't fit their narrative. smh. Well, it's basically the case of opinions are like buttholes, we all got one and I doubt anyone is changing anyone's mind here. I know what I hear between Dorian and Bull vs Dorian and Quizzy through the banter. The contrast in Dorian's behavior is staggering. 

 

To the thread in general, As for victim blaming. It's not that complex nor does it have to be that heavy. It's basically just blaming someone who is the target of a wrongful act for the wrongful act that befell them. Like blaming a kid for being bullied in class. Maybe he shouldn't have worn those flooded jeans or sport those coke bottle glasses with the tape in the middle. But how does that make the bullies justified or relieved from any blame?

[sandalisthemaker]

So I was looking for Dorian's take on the romance and found this.

 

 

 

http://youtu.be/QTCXJBx-DZ0

 

 

The first half is Dorian talking about the relationship, and after listening to it, I feel better about it. I never thought it was abusive, and my concern was Dorian's embarrassment and discomfort which apparently seems to come from the fact that Bull is a Qunari and not really from the way Bull treats him.  

 

"My ancestors are officially turning over in their graves."  

 

Makes sense since his father's lack of acceptance hits him so hard. 

 

Or at least that's what I got from listening.

[Ryzaki]

Varric brings up their relationship, Dorian tells him it's none of his business, Bull keeps egging Varric on about and tells Dorian to "stop topping from the bottom."

 

I was hoping for a banter link so I could hear tone. That usually helps with seeing intentions.

[InstantNoodlez]

My quizzy drank from the Well. It isn't clear if his life is eternal or not. Abelas says that when the years of those bound to Mythal are over they pass their knowledge on yet Flemeth and Solas keep saying it's eternal. I'll go with Flem and Solas and headcanon that my Quizzy is immortal. If a new person does come around it'll most likely be himself pretending to be someone new. Most of the people don't even know what the Quizzy looks like judging from the IB scene.

 

If a Viv type did come along my Quizzy would most likely pass it on to them anyway if he did die. By then, whocares what they do with the organization.  IB isn't my favorite character but he's right when it says that being a leader is all about who's willing to do the job. I'd rather pass the Inquisition to some sneaky bastard who wants it than some reluctant hero.

 

 

And doom upon all the world? I guess your quizzy was not really played as a heroic type?

 

The issues with quizzy is, he/she is so bland, that is it hard to see what they'll do without inserting a lot of head canon. My quizzy may be an elven over-activist who pretends to be nice, and used Dorian's moment of weakness after meeting his father to get into his pants, but wishes to eventually collapse Tevinter, eradicate the chantry, and help his bro Solas restore the elven kingdoms of old.

 

But myself feels quite uncomfortable playing the inquisition sometimes, since I largely don't rp and can't rp well. So most of the times the quizzy is just a window through which I see the world of Thedas that bioware has built. The inquisition's quick rise to power and its ability to affect both church and state leaves a strange taste in my mouth. And the inquisition is so open to abuse, that I see very little good things coming out it if left unchecked long term. So most of the time I just jump around the countryside picking elfroots, my head firmly in the sand, despite the sense of foreboding that grew and grew (what a monster have I helped create?).

 

But here it is exactly where a player's personal experiences and preferences would cloud and direct their views on a video game. My own origins are not exactly from a democratic or western country, and I am a bit extra sensitive to certain things than I'd imagine many other players. And I do applaude bioware on this, on building a world that I can connect with. (but not their PC controls or bugged character states or shiney hair.)

[Medhia_Nox]

@sandalisthemaker:  After listening to that dialogue... any suggestion of "abuse" is purely projection and totally ludicrous.  Thank you for it.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I was hoping for a banter link so I could hear tone. That usually helps with seeing intentions.

Then go look it up on Youtube. I really don't feel like I should be required to present you the figurative course reading for the issue that we're discussing. What are you basing your opinions on if you haven't listened to it?

[Ryzaki]

Then go look it up on Youtube. I really don't feel like I should be required to present you the figurative course reading for the issue that we're discussing. What are you basing your opinions on if you haven't listened to it?

 

I have listened to it. But I don't recall Dorian ever telling Bull to can it. Which is why I asked.

[Medhia_Nox]

@(Disgusted Noise): A cursory knowledge of human nature?

People in abusive relationships don't, as a general rule, show unbelievable amounts of personal strength in other areas of their lives. 

 

Dorian has told his family, his nation and his social status to F-off... but now, he is suddenly allowing a Qunari to abuse him?  It's ludicrous and I didn't need to listen to anything to find it so.  Much like the Inquisitor - Dorian is accustomed to power and being in control - if anything, he likes being on the submissive side of his relationship with Bull (and unless we're bottom shaming in this thread - there shouldn't be much issue with that).

 

That sandalisthemaker was nice enough to post the dialogues only confirms that I didn't really need to dig much further into these weird accusations. 

[Hazegurl]

I like this little article from a dom who admits that the phrase "Topping from the bottom" is harmful. At the very least I think most of us can at least agree that IB seems to fail at being a dom and I'm basing that on both Quizzy and Dorian.  Safe word after the sex? Really Bull? lol!

http://www.notjustbi...rom-the-bottom/

 

"By calling anything and everything “topping from the bottom”, we’re setting submissives up to be unhappy and unfulfilled, if not outright harmed. Dominant types are not mind-readers, we can’t fulfill our submissives’ needs unless they tell us what those needs are. Even in the best case scenario, telling submissive people that they can’t express preferences or make requests means that their doms have to flail around hoping they’ll stumble over what their submissives need to be happy. In the worst case, it sets submissive people up to tolerate abuse because they’re afraid that standing up for their own needs in any way means they’re bad subs.

 

As much as I’d like the phrase “topping from the bottom” to mean something, it just doesn’t. It’s time to let it die."

 

@Sandal, I do like listening to that. I'm more relieved. I still think it's potentially unhealthy but it makes me feel better hearing Dorian's opinion on it.

[Hazegurl]

And doom upon all the world? I guess your quizzy was not really played as a heroic type?

 

The issues with quizzy is, he/she is so bland, that is it hard to see what they'll do without inserting a lot of head canon. My quizzy may be an elven over-activist who pretends to be nice, and used Dorian's moment of weakness after meeting his father to get into his pants, but wishes to eventually collapse Tevinter, eradicate the chantry, and help his bro Solas restore the elven kingdoms of old.

 

But myself feels quite uncomfortable playing the inquisition sometimes, since I largely don't rp and can't rp well. So most of the times the quizzy is just a window through which I see the world of Thedas that bioware has built. The inquisition's quick rise to power and its ability to affect both church and state leaves a strange taste in my mouth. And the inquisition is so open to abuse, that I see very little good things coming out it if left unchecked long term. So most of the time I just jump around the countryside picking elfroots, my head firmly in the sand, despite the sense of foreboding that grew and grew (what a monster have I helped create?).

 

But here it is exactly where a player's personal experiences and preferences would cloud and direct their views on a video game. My own origins are not exactly from a democratic or western country, and I am a bit extra sensitive to certain things than I'd imagine many other players. And I do applaude bioware on this, on building a world that I can connect with. (but not their PC controls or bugged character states or shiney hair.)

I agree, it's mostly my head canon that makes my Quizzy work, he wanted power above all else.  If I were to think about the character Bioware wrote. He'll probably fade away into near nonexistence. I can't imagine that milquetoast being able to hang on to the Inquisition for long. He can't even get rid of companions (except Sera) so it's quite easy to imagine some more power ambitious person sneaking in and just sitting on his throne. It's not like he'll do anything.  lol! So when I think of it like that, the Inquisition may eventually bring  a lot  of pain to people's lives.

[sandalisthemaker]

If Dorian is embarrassed but happy, which he seems to be to me, then I can live with Bull/Dorian. I don't actively support the pairing, since IMO Dorian is in a better place with the Inquisitor than with Bull.

[AshesEleven]

Then go look it up on Youtube. I really don't feel like I should be required to present you the figurative course reading for the issue that we're discussing. What are you basing your opinions on if you haven't listened to it?

 

They've been asking because they don't remember any particular examples of abuse and don't remember the tone being anything but playful banter.  We've all heard the banter.  You're the one making a point about it being abusive, you need to back it up with evidence, not them.  

[Ryzaki]

Eh IB/Dorian strikes me as bad for bull anyway. I prefer Bull with Quizzy *shrug* so Dorian won't ever have to worry about the big mean savage conquering him.

[vertigomez]

How about we all hold hands and not accuse each other of being facilitators of abuse/"social justice warriorz!!1". We're operating on two different frequencies at this point. It's not, "wow, this is abuse so you must be totally okay with your friends getting abused, ugh I'd hate to know u irl" because fans of their relationship DO NOT SEE IT THAT WAY AT ALL. We're not "glamorizing abuse" because... we don't see any. Like I said before... I see playful tsundere banter, other people see toxicity.

Likewise, claiming that everybody who feels a bit uncomfortable about the banter and would like to have an intrafandom dialogue about it is just butthurt or "has an agenda" is equally harmful. Dismissing people out of hand because you don't like what they have to say isn't gonna beget mutual understanding. It's easy to get defensive of characters you love (Zevran and Carver, I'm looking at you~) but pls realize that sometimes characters/pairings just rub people the wrong way.

I really don't think we need a thread about it, though. Maybe a fanthread and an anti-fanthread so people will stop pulling each other's hair like kindergarteners.

tl;dr stop being dicks

eta: by the time I posted this folks were actually being respectful lmao, so feel free to ignore me.

[WhoopinYourA55Mate]

I stopped reading honestly when I saw that you got no clue what difference is between bi and pan...no wait I stopped reading when I realized that you have no idea what any of these sexuality are

[sandalisthemaker]

Eh IB/Dorian strikes me as bad for bull anyway. I prefer Bull with Quizzy *shrug* so Dorian won't ever have to worry about the big mean savage conquering him.

 

Your Inquisitor sticks with Bull, mine with Dorian.  Everyone wins.

[Ryzaki]

Your Inquisitor sticks with Bull, mine with Dorian.  Everyone wins.

 

Yep.

 

And on the games I romance Cullen I guess...I'll just have Dorian not recruited I wish you had the ability to ask all companions to leave whenever like Sera so I could at least dump him after the rumors start spreading to keep it in character but meh. Bull can keep banging his serving girls and Dorian fight the good fight in Tevinter.

[Firecracker048]

I have listened to it. But I don't recall Dorian ever telling Bull to can it. Which is why I asked.

Because he didn't. But some people don't want you to know that and just want you to believe what they say about it

[Ryzaki]

Because he didn't. But some people don't want you to know that and just want you to believe what they say about it

 

Yeah I figured that's what it was.

[Firecracker048]

Then go look it up on Youtube. I really don't feel like I should be required to present you the figurative course reading for the issue that we're discussing. What are you basing your opinions on if you haven't listened to it?

So you saying that without presenting any real facts, we should just take what your saying at face value? If your confident in your opinions, then the link would be posted. Someone called you out for what your basing your accusations on and you have no real defense other than "go look it up yourself, why should I have to show you where im getting my information from". Come on man.

[Firecracker048]

Then go look it up on Youtube. I really don't feel like I should be required to present you the figurative course reading for the issue that we're discussing. What are you basing your opinions on if you haven't listened to it?

 

 

Yeah I figured that's what it was.

 

Boom, headshot.