437 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

 

Also, Bull can tell if people across the room are sleeping with other people, and even know how many people they are sleeping with. He is extremly observant. When the game tells you that he can see what people need, you have to take that at face value. So if you consent to his romance and go along with it, then the game is going to assume that you are acknowledging that this is what your character wants, and Bull is actually right about your needs.

 

And the day he's wrong?

Oh that can't happen because he's the one who knows what you want , not you know...actually you.

[Basement Cat]

Spoiler

To get Bull to that stage, you had to go through multiple steps. You had to initiate the relationship with him to start with. He doesnt' come on to you at all. You have to flirt with him multiple times and jump through hoops to ever get him to approach your character in a sexual manner. After that, you have to consent during the act like three times. He shows you what it means to be with him, and then he gives you a very simple choice of being into it or not.

 

If you say that you are into it then you are roleplaying your character as being into it. It's consent. It's consensual. If you agree when he says this is what you need, then that is what your character needs and you are now taking on that role in a bdsm relationship. If you have a problem with your character being there, then that is your fault for putting them in that situation. Bull makes it very clear.

 

Also, Bull can tell if people across the room are sleeping with other people, and even know how many people they are sleeping with. He is extremly observant. When the game tells you that he can see what people need, you have to take that at face value. So if you consent to his romance and go along with it, then the game is going to assume that you are acknowledging that this is what your character wants, and Bull is actually right about your needs.

 

Some people do need things that are not available in a conventional relationship and recieve these things from people able to give of them in a safe and healthy manner, just as Bull does in the game. Iron Bull is a romance option for people to explore that. If it's not your cup of tea, do not take that out on the character. He is not inflicting anything upon the Inquisitor, at all. It's actually a challenge for a lot of people who are trying to romance Bull to get him to make the moves.

 

Do not villianize him just because you do not agree with the relationship style he offers after great pushing. If you are warned implicitly not to stick your hand in the fire, and then do, you do not villianize the fire as being evil for burning you, or declare that the fire is not able to offer something healthy to others.

Spoilered for size

The one gripe I have about it is that Bull doesn't really explain what we're getting into at first. He gives a bunch of vague hints and warnings, but nothing clear. And he only establishes the safeword after the deed. That's a little iffy to me.

 

Edit: actually it's very iffy. Bad dom etiquette!

[Ryzaki]

And the day he's wrong?

Oh that can't happen because he's the one who knows what you want , not you know...actually you.

 

Then you reject him?

 

I'm not sure what's hard to comprehend about this. If you don't want it you just say no. He was wrong. That's end of it.

[nightscrawl]

Coincidentally, David Gaider addressed this in a tumblr post just recently. Go have a read.

[Reznore57]

Then you reject him?

 

I'm not sure what's hard to comprehend about this. If you don't want it you just say no. He was wrong. That's end of it.

 

There's nothing hard to comprehend.

People think he will stop when you need him to stop.

The only moment ( as far as I know , correct me if I'm wrong)you say you're not ok with what is happening in bed , he replies you don't know what you're talking about, you don't know what you need , but he says he does.

If that doesn't ring some alarm bells ?!!!

 

Now I don't think the relationship was meant to look like this , I assume the "I feel uncomfortable , Bull" dialogue was not handled very well.

But I'm sorry it's really really really creepy.

Of course if you play the romance without that exchange , well fine.

But gosh , I really wish it wasn't written this way.

[Ryzaki]

There's nothing hard to comprehend.

People think he will stop when you need him to stop.

The only moment ( as far as I know , correct me if I'm wrong)you say you're not ok with what is happening in bed , he replies you don't know what you're talking about, you don't know what you need , but he says he does.

If that doesn't ring some alarm bells ?!!!

 

Now I don't think the relationship was meant to look like this , I assume the "I feel uncomfortable , Bull" dialogue was not handled very well.

But I'm sorry it's really really really creepy.

Of course if you play the romance without that exchange , well fine.

But gosh , I really wish it wasn't written this way.

 

You have 3 chances to back out. In the first love scene before you even have sex.

 

If it's ringing alarm bells here's a weird thought hit the broken heart icon! That's what it's there for.

 

Is it very patronizing? Oh yes I will never argue differently but if you continue to proceed your character was okay with it. You have so many chances to back out of Bull's mance there's really no excuse.

 

Bull even tells you later he figured if you weren't okay with it you'd thrown him out.

[daveliam]

And the day he's wrong?

Oh that can't happen because he's the one who knows what you want , not you know...actually you.

 

If he was wrong, wouldn't you just not choose to romance him?  It's not real life (although I can see how it is uncomfortable with real world implications), so there are finite ways it can be represented.  If you romance Bull, it's implied that Bull was right and you are happy with the romance.  If you choose not to romance him after getting the 'warning', then it's implied that Bull was wrong about what you 'need'.  They didn't put in an option for romancing him but also showing him that he was wrong and getting him to come around to addressing your 'actual' needs.  Perhaps that's because of resources.  Perhaps it's sloppy writing.  Perhaps it's just not what Patrick wanted to write.  I don't see an argument that Bull and Inquisitor is an abusive relationship if you consent to it willingly, given the way that it's written.  But I might not be the best person to speak on it as I don't have first hand experience with abusive relationships, so forgive me if it seems that I'm speaking out of turn.

[Iakus]

Except you have several chances to back out and he accepts that no hard feelings. I highly doubt Bull would force himself on Dorian.

 

That said you have the option to completely avoid it. So...

Indeed.  Bull's behavior seems to indicate that he's not going to force himself on an unwilling partner.

 

Whether the relationship is in the end healthy for Dorian and/or Bull is certainly up for debate, but they almost certainly entered into it with their eyes open.

 

As for Iron Bull being a promiscuous stereotype, I really don't see it.  I mean, he fights hard and parties hard so I guess he's the quintisential hard-living mercenary.  But aside from his "Mmmm, redheads" line, I don't recall hearing any "screw with anything that'll hold still" comments from him.

 

Then again, I am almost positive I've been hit with the banter bug, so who knows?"

[Ryzaki]

Indeed.  Bull's behavior seems to indicate that he's not going to force himself on an unwilling partner.

 

Whether the relationship is in the end healthy for Dorian and/or Bull is certainly up for debate, but they almost certainly entered into it with their eyes open.

 

As for Iron Bull being a promiscuous stereotype, I really don't see it.  I mean, he fights hard and parties hard so I guess he's the quintisential hard-living mercenary.  But aside from his "Mmmm, redheads" line, I don't recall hearing any "screw with anything that'll hold still" comments from him.

 

Then again, I am almost positive I've been hit with the banter bug, so who knows?"

 

Yep this whole debate just makes me feel people are treating Dorian like a child or a victim that needs protection from the big bad Iron Bull.   

 

But I can see Bull being the sterotype. He had plenty of remarks about banging the kitchen staff in my game which was...amusing then that awkward "of course since we're doing this I won't be anymore." remark.

[daveliam]

Indeed.  Bull's behavior seems to indicate that he's not going to force himself on an unwilling partner.

 

Whether the relationship is in the end healthy for Dorian and/or Bull is certainly up for debate, but they almost certainly entered into it with their eyes open.

 

As for Iron Bull being a promiscuous stereotype, I really don't see it.  I mean, he fights hard and parties hard so I guess he's the quintisential hard-living mercenary.  But aside from his "Mmmm, redheads" line, I don't recall hearing any "screw with anything that'll hold still" comments from him.

 

Then again, I am almost positive I've been hit with the banter bug, so who knows?"

 

Bull makes a lot of comments about sleeping with serving girls in the taverns.  I can think of at least three separate cases where he mentions them, in fairly graphic detail at times.  Plus his "mmmmm, redheads" lines and his flirty banter with Dorian.  I can see how people see him as a bit of the promiscuous bisexual type.

[Kurogane335]

I will admit, the way Bull approaches the romance with the Inquisitor did make me feel a little uncomfortable. I have nothing wrong with BDSM, but I don't feel like the Inquisitor even gets the chance to go against it. Bull just decides that is how your relationship is going to be.

 

I suppose I should listen to the Dorian/Bull stuff again. I always assumed they just had a slight edge because one was a Tevintar and one was a Qunari. Looks like there's more to it than that. 

 

I haven't romanced Bull so, I don't know it its look but... could his vision of his relation with the Inquisitor stem from the fact that, as a Qunari, it may be the first time he actually has sex with someone he loves (since, under the Qun, sex and love are usually kept separate) ?

[Ryzaki]

Bull makes a lot of comments about sleeping with serving girls in the taverns.  I can think of at least three separate cases where he mentions them, in fairly graphic detail at times.  Plus his "mmmmm, redheads" lines and his flirty banter with Dorian.  I can see how people see him as a bit of the promiscuous bisexual type.

 

I'm still mad he ignores my PC romancing him being a redhead.

 

Just one comment man.

 

JUST ONE.

[daveliam]

I'm still mad he ignores my PC romancing him being a redhead.

 

Just one comment man.

 

JUST ONE.

 

Agreed.  I specifically made my dwarf a redhead just to make him more attractive to Bull and got zilch for it.  I was hoping for a line of some kind. 

[Wanderlust14]

What YOU find unacceptable does not matter. Unless it pertains to you ofc. Which it doesn't. If another grown individual decides that is what they want or require or need that is their prerogative and you have no right to try and shove your views down on them or to tell them that they're living/loving/being in something as subjective as a relationship wrong. That is what I am getting at.

 

And I'd say Dorian's continued presence in the relationship is enough of an agreement, which means it's not abuse because what you see as abuse and needless abject humiliation is part of their relationship's dynamic. Which you might not agree with but should try to understand anyway because that's just a decent thing to do. Clearly though we have different interpretations on Dorian as a character.

Listen, don't try that you should accept everything nonsense unless it applies to you. I actually believe in allowing people to have sexual relations anyway they please as long as there is informed consent, of age, and human. I firmly agree with that. Unhealthy relationships, on the other hand, don't have to just be accepted though. As I stated earlier, I have seen people in such relationships and you know what, it can destroy them even if they are adults and are consenting. Abuse does exist and it can be an extremely hard dynamic to break from. I will never judge the person being abused (and will judge the abuser), but that does not mean I have to support the relationship. 

 

Except you have several chances to back out and he accepts that no hard feelings. I highly doubt Bull would force himself on Dorian.

 

That said you have the option to completely avoid it. So...

And I do.

[Ryzaki]

 

And I do.

 

Good (no sarcasm)

 

 

Agreed.  I specifically made my dwarf a redhead just to make him more attractive to Bull and got zilch for it.  I was hoping for a line of some kind. 

 

SOMETHING.

 

I gave him a whole bunch of freckles and green eyes too. Zilch I got. I was so disappointed.

[Reznore57]

If he was wrong, wouldn't you just not choose to romance him?  It's not real life (although I can see how it is uncomfortable with real world implications), so there are finite ways it can be represented.  If you romance Bull, it's implied that Bull was right and you are happy with the romance.  If you choose not to romance him after getting the 'warning', then it's implied that Bull was wrong about what you 'need'.  They didn't put in an option for romancing him but also showing him that he was wrong and getting him to come around to addressing your 'actual' needs.  Perhaps that's because of resources.  Perhaps it's sloppy writing.  Perhaps it's just not what Patrick wanted to write.  I don't see an argument that Bull and Inquisitor is an abusive relationship if you consent to it willingly, given the way that it's written.  But I might not be the best person to speak on it as I don't have first hand experience with abusive relationships, so forgive me if it seems that I'm speaking out of turn.

 

I don't think P. Weekes wanted to look like this.At all.

And I don't romance the Iron Bull , I don't want to because that particular dialogue completly creeps me out.

Now I know some people enjoy the romance , and I watched it on Youtube and some part of this romance are really nice.

But yeah I have a problem with part of it.

 

(On a side note , I'm not ranting to offend people who liked the Bull romance ...so I should probably stop ranting.)

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Thank God this is a conversation about two videogame characters and not real people. The level of casual victim blaming in here is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if someone "seems like the type" not to let themselves be abused. It also doesn't matter if an abusive relationship is consenting or not, it's still abusive. People get in and stay in abusive relationships all the time, and almost no one does it because they say to themselves, "You know what sounds like fun? Being in an emotionally/physically abusive relationship. I ought to find one of those."

[Wanderlust14]

I don't think P. Weekes wanted to look like this.At all.

And I don't romance the Iron Bull , I don't want to because that particular dialogue completly creeps me out.

Now I know some people enjoy the romance , and I watched it on Youtube and some part of this romance are really nice.

But yeah I have a problem with part of it.

 

(On a side note , I'm not ranting to offend people who liked the Bull romance ...so I should probably stop ranting.)

Yeah, I don't know if this thread will last. I never meant to seem like I am crapping on Bull. I don't like him, but I also understand some people do and I don't judge them for that. At the same time, I feel like this is making the Bull fans very defensive and the people who don't very defensive. The sad thing is, I really don't have anything against BDS&M and have even enjoyed reading a naughty fiction/fanfiction with it. I just am not thrilled with this relationship and I wished it was shown better, but judging what I just read from David Gaider, it was almost meant to be head canon either way, since he states it doesn't necessarily have to be healthy. 

[daveliam]

(On a side note , I'm not ranting to offend people who liked the Bull romance ...so I should probably stop ranting.)

 

I wonder if that's part of why people are responding the way that they are.  There's an underlying tone to some of the posts (not just yours), which is probably unintentional, that people who enjoy Bull's romance are supporting abusive relationships.  I'm not personally offended by it, but I wonder if that's why some people are responding in defense of that romance. 

[Sui Causa]

His promiscuity fit's his character. It fits his culture, how he was raised. He explains that to him sex is nothing. Going to see the quinari version of a brothel is regarded exactly the same as going to a healer to be healed. Why would he not be anything but what he is?

 

If Bull is wrong about your character you can tell him so and walk away. If he isn't wrong you romance him. It's easy.

 

Honestly? My character was a dalish elf who got dumped into something way bigger than himself, and is somehow keeping it together despite that. I don't know what kind of character you played, but Bull was pretty spot on when he described how things were.

 

Bull's relationship with the Inquisitor and Bull's relationship with Dorian are two completley diffrent animals. Bull and the Inquisitor are not abuse. They couldn't be more of the opposite. If you pursued it you consented. If you didn't, well you probably shouldn't have kept flirting with the promiscuous quinari who does nothing to hide that part of himself at all.

 

Dorian? It's all how you interpret it, because it's behind closed doors. If your head canon is abuse, that's what it is.

[Fredward]

Listen, don't try that you should accept everything nonsense unless it applies to you. I actually believe in allowing people to have sexual relations anyway they please as long as there is informed consent, of age, and human. I firmly agree with that. Unhealthy relationships, on the other hand, don't have to just be accepted though. As I stated earlier, I have seen people in such relationships and you know what, it can destroy them even if they are adults and are consenting. Abuse does exist and it can be an extremely hard dynamic to break from. I will never judge the person being abused (and will judge the abuser), but that does not mean I have to support the relationship.

Question: do you find the idea of a dom/sub relationship and/or BDSM inherently abusive and/or unhealthy?

[(Disgusted noise.)]

For the record, I don't really have a problem with Bull/Inquisitor. I dislike the manipulative streak he shows if you question him about the dynamics of the relationship, but if the Inquisitor accepts the terms from the start, it's fine. My problem with Bull is specifically with the Bull/Dorian "romance."

[Frikipolleces]

One of the most harmful stereotypes for bi/pan people is that they're ready to bone whoever, whenever, wherever. False, rude, and something media continues to enforce with behaviors like Bull's. The only context it would make sense in is if he's presented as someone who has a problem with the excess -- which he's not. This form of "representation" is harmful, and a huge step back from the bisexual romances we got in DA2 (contrast with Josephine, who is an actual princess and perfect in every way, and exactly how a bisexual romance should go). 

I wanted to comment on this bit because ir really got on my nerves. I'll make this very short and to the point, because it's such a simple idea that it shouldn't be hard to comprehend at all (and yet it seems it is).

 

Not everyone meets their respective stereotypes. But SOME do. And there's absolutely nothing wrong about it.

 

There's absolutely no problem with a "manly" lesbian, or a sassy gay, or a promiscuous bisexual.

 

If Bull was the only bisexual in Thedas, or if every bisexual in Thedas was depicted that way, then you'd have a point. But that's not the case. And telling someone (be them a character or a real person) how they are supposed to behave to meet YOUR standards is not "good representation" nor "acceptance".