437 réponses à ce sujet

[Avejajed]

I think maybe some of you don’t fully understand how a master/sub relationship works.  Both parties are willing. The submissive, depending on the rules set forth in that particular relationship (no two relationships have the exact same guidelines) willingly allows what happens to him or her. Many times the submissive likes being humiliated, physically and emotionally. They want it. They need it, for whatever reason. That’s part of the allure.  Many times they like being hurt,  they like being controlled, and they seek it out and that is why they are in that kind of relationship. They get off on it.

 

It’s not for me to decide if that’s a healthy relationship for those two people or not, but you can’t call that willing relationship abusive because no matter what you think, both people have entered into a mutual agreement and are both willing and have both consented.

 

Is that the kind of relationship relationship that is going on here between Bull & Dorian?  Unlikely.

 

Dorian and Bull are both adults. They both made choices to get there. I know I’ve had friends who have been in terrible, terrible relationships that I have just tried and tried to talk sense into them…but people do what they want and have to make their own mistakes. For whatever reason he did it, hooking up with Bull is a choice Dorian made. Maybe it was a drunk hookup the first time, but he went back for more. If it’s an epic mistake it’s one they both made willingly.

 

As for Bull being abusive, I would say if he really was abusive in the traditional sense, well that changes things. Those relationships are vicious cycles and are extremely hard to extract yourself from. Do I think this is what is going on here? No. I don’t know how we could tell from the little bit that we hear. Bull just makes Dorian take his walk of shame a little more publicly than Dorian would have liked.

 

But that’s just my opinion on it. Bull’s into what he’s into. That doesn’t make Bull an abusive boyfriend.

 

For what it's worth I think Bull and Dorian are terrible for each other.

[Prince of Keys]

Thank God this is a conversation about two videogame characters and not real people. The level of casual victim blaming in here is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if someone "seems like the type" not to let themselves be abused. It also doesn't matter if an abusive relationship is consenting or not, it's still abusive. People get in and stay in abusive relationships all the time, and almost no one does it because they say to themselves, "You know what sounds like fun? Being in an emotionally/physically abusive relationship. I ought to find one of those."

 

Yeah, I have no opinion about the IB/Dorian thing because I haven't heard any of the banter/dialogue in my game and so I don't really know what it's like, but people don't ask to be abused. There isn't one "type" of person that "lets" themselves be abused, and everyone else is somehow safe from abusive relationships because they're too good for them or something. It can be incredibly easy to accidentally end up in an abusive relationship without realizing it--romantic or platonic--and it's kind of horrifying to see people casually dismissing the subject just because they don't think Dorian is a "delicate flower." He doesn't have to be. You can be the strongest person on earth, mentally and physically, and still end up in an abusive relationship. People can even initiate a relationship that ends up being abusive, and it still doesn't magically make it non-abusive just because they "asked for it" or "didn't leave." (Because it's so easy to leave an abusive relationship, apparently?)

[WildOrchid]

I wonder if that's part of why people are responding the way that they are.  There's an underlying tone to some of the posts (not just yours), which is probably unintentional, that people who enjoy Bull's romance are supporting abusive relationships.  I'm not personally offended by it, but I wonder if that's why some people are responding in defense of that romance. 

 

Reminds me of those people on tumblr who say Sera's romance is abusive and that people who didn't felt there was any abuse (so did i) and romanced her, support abusive relationships.

 

Fun times.

[Wanderlust14]

Question: do you find the idea of a dom/sub relationship and/or BDSM inherently abusive and/or unhealthy?

No, actually, I don't, but I do think there are risks there that it can turn into abuse if it is done incorrectly, but I think there are risks in almost any form of sex so that isn't a knock on BDS&M. If you read what I wrote earlier, you would have seen that I witness some of Bull's behavior in a relationship that was abusive which is one of the reason I find his relationship with the Inquisitor and Dorian so uncomfortable. I watched a man dismiss and talk down to my Aunt. He knew what was best and dismissed her opinions. I watched him cut her down again and again until she was hardly the fun and confident person I once knew. It had nothing to do with BDS&M. 

[Sui Causa]

His promiscuity fit's his character. It fits his culture, how he was raised. He explains that to him sex is nothing. Going to see the quinari version of a brothel is regarded exactly the same as going to a healer to be healed. Why would he not be anything but what he is?

 

If Bull is wrong about your character you can tell him so and walk away. If he isn't wrong you romance him. It's easy.

 

Honestly? My character was a dalish elf who got dumped into something way bigger than himself, and is somehow keeping it together despite that. I don't know what kind of character you played, but Bull was pretty spot on when he described how things were.

 

Bull's relationship with the Inquisitor and Bull's relationship with Dorian are two completley diffrent animals. Bull and the Inquisitor are not abuse. They couldn't be more of the opposite. If you pursued it you consented. If you didn't, well you probably shouldn't have kept flirting with the promiscuous quinari who does nothing to hide that part of himself at all.

 

Dorian? It's all how you interpret it, because it's behind closed doors. If your head canon is abuse, that's what it is.

 

Personally, I am offended. Because saying Dorian is a victim and that he is sleeping with Bull and we are victim blaming by defending him is so offensive in itself I don't even know where to start. Ugh. It's a game, you take things at face value. Dorian and Bull have a relationship. They are in it consensually because Bull says he will just leave his door unlocked, and simple as that Dorian is already planning on doing their thing again. That doesn't say abuse. That says whatever they have, they are exploring it and they are doing their thing, and Bull has never been the type to hide what he is so I highly doubt Dorian was surprised by what he was getting into.

 

Making him into a victim is your head canon. Dorian is not your aunt. Bull is not your uncle or whatever man you are imprinting on him. That is what you are making him into, and that is not likely what was intended by the writers, and unsurprisingly, not what people who do not have your bias see in him.

 

My bias? I'm a sub in a relationship with a man who's a lot like Bull in a lot of ways. When I met my husband I didn't know what I needed, at all. He showed me the options, we explored it together. Now I do know. We're happy. Have I been told to not top from the bottom? I've actually been told that exact line on multiple occasions. I deserved it every time because I was purposefully baiting my husband. It happens.

 

You can read into things however you want. We're both reading from the opposite spectrum. Bull is a contraversial character that way, because you can imprint all kinds of things on him. He's an authoriative male figure. People have both good and bad experiences with those. But I would be exceptionally sad if Bioware regretted Bull. Because he is something a lot of people enjoy. People who refuse to see anything but their own projection of him are not helping the case of diversity in video games, at all.

[Fredward]

No, actually, I don't, but I do think there are risks there that it can turn into abuse if it is done incorrectly, but I think there are risks in almost any form of sex so that isn't a knock on BDS&M. If you read what I wrote earlier, you would have seen that I witness some of Bull's behavior in a relationship that was abusive which is one of the reason I find his relationship with the Inquisitor and Dorian so uncomfortable. I watched a man dismiss and talk down to my Aunt. He knew what was best and dismissed her opinions. I watched him cut her down again and again until she was hardly the fun and confident person I once knew. It had nothing to do with BDS&M. 

 

That doesn't really lend weight to your argument though. How do you know you're not unfairly projecting what you witnessed with your aunt onto the Dorian/Bull dynamic? Assuming it's a dom/sub thing like what Bull pursues with the Inquisitor and accepting that such sometimes employ elements of embarrassment as part of its inherent dynamic why think that it's unhealthy? Or not what Dorian wants? What characteristic of Dorian's makes you think he would not simply leave such a relationship if he was truly dissatisfied with the dynamic? Come to think of it what in Bull's character would make him do such a dickish thing? Or is this the OOC part?

[Drunkencelt]

It sounds like you are biased against bull and automatically assume all bi/gay relationships have to be a princess scenario. You came in ready to be offended at the first sign.

Multile conversations with bull and his chargers should of shown you what kind of person he is. Fulfilling Dorians romance and quests also show you his personal and public persona.

Lastly, bull is a stereotypical soldeir. He is a saint compared to what I hear in the barracks.

This really comes off as overthought while missing the what's right in front of you.

[Nemesis788450]

are we really having this discussion? THIS discussion is EXACTLY the reason why characters in games become more and more bland as a lot of people even on this forum have complained about...all this political correctness is for the ASS - characters need flaws, lovem, hatem, laught with em, cry with em but they should induce some damn FEELINGS

[Fredward]

Can I just pop in again so I can set something straight for myself: I do not recognize the relationship as abusive because I think Bull is being a dick because of the inherent mechanics of a dom/sub relationship. Others are saying the fact that Bull is being such a dick makes it abusive and the dom/sub part of the relationship isn't relevant to that abuse.

 

Is that about right?

[(Disgusted noise.)]

That doesn't really lend weight to your argument though. How do you know you're not unfairly projecting what you witnessed with your aunt onto the Dorian/Bull dynamic? Assuming it's a dom/sub thing like what Bull pursues with the Inquisitor and accepting that such sometimes employ elements of embarrassment as part of its inherent dynamic why think that it's unhealthy? Or not what Dorian wants? What characteristic of Dorian's makes you think he would not simply leave such a relationship if he was truly dissatisfied with the dynamic? Come to think of it what in Bull's character would make him do such a dickish thing? Or is this the OOC part?

Dorian sounds irritated and uncomfortable every time the subject is brought up. That does not sound like someone who's enjoying being embarrassed. That's the difference between that part of a bdsm relationship being healthy or not. Because the sub wants it.

 

Dorian has never had another man show an interest in him romantically. This is the best opportunity he's ever been given and he has nothing to compare it to.

[Wanderlust14]

His promiscuity fit's his character. It fits his culture, how he was raised. He explains that to him sex is nothing. Going to see the quinari version of a brothel is regarded exactly the same as going to a healer to be healed. Why would he not be anything but what he is?

 

If Bull is wrong about your character you can tell him so and walk away. If he isn't wrong you romance him. It's easy.

 

Honestly? My character was a dalish elf who got dumped into something way bigger than himself, and is somehow keeping it together despite that. I don't know what kind of character you played, but Bull was pretty spot on when he described how things were.

 

Bull's relationship with the Inquisitor and Bull's relationship with Dorian are two completley diffrent animals. Bull and the Inquisitor are not abuse. They couldn't be more of the opposite. If you pursued it you consented. If you didn't, well you probably shouldn't have kept flirting with the promiscuous quinari who does nothing to hide that part of himself at all.

 

Dorian? It's all how you interpret it, because it's behind closed doors. If your head canon is abuse, that's what it is.

 

Personally, I am offended. Because saying Dorian is a victim and that he is sleeping with Bull and we are victim blaming by defending him is so offensive in itself I don't even know where to start. Ugh. It's a game, you take things at face value. Dorian and Bull have a relationship. They are in it consensually because Bull says he will just leave his door unlocked, and simple as that Dorian is already planning on doing their thing again. That doesn't say abuse. That says whatever they have, they are exploring it and they are doing their thing, and Bull has never been the type to hide what he is so I highly doubt Dorian was surprised by what he was getting into.

 

Making him into a victim is your head canon. Dorian is not your aunt. Bull is not your uncle or whatever man you are imprinting on him. That is what you are making him into, and that is not likely what was intended by the writers, and unsurprisingly, not what people who do not have your bias see in him.

 

My bias? I'm a sub in a relationship with a man who's a lot like Bull in a lot of ways. When I met my husband I didn't know what I needed, at all. He showed me the options, we explored it together. Now I do know. We're happy. Have I been told to not top from the bottom? I've actually been told that exact line on multiple occasions. I deserved it every time because I was purposefully baiting my husband. It happens.

 

You can read into things however you want. We're both reading from the opposite spectrum. Bull is a contraversial character that way, because you can imprint all kinds of things on him. He's an authoriative male figure. People have both good and bad experiences with those. But I would be exceptionally sad if Bioware regretted Bull. Because he is something a lot of people enjoy. People who refuse to see anything but their own projection of him are not helping the case of diversity in video games, at all.

 

That doesn't really lend weight to your argument though. How do you know you're not unfairly projecting what you witnessed with your aunt onto the Dorian/Bull dynamic? Assuming it's a dom/sub thing like what Bull pursues with the Inquisitor and accepting that such sometimes employ elements of embarrassment as part of its inherent dynamic why think that it's unhealthy? Or not what Dorian wants? What characteristic of Dorian's makes you think he would not simply leave such a relationship if he was truly dissatisfied with the dynamic? Come to think of it what in Bull's character would make him do such a dickish thing? Or is this the OOC part?

 

Who says it was fair. All I am saying is I saw similar flags in Bull's and Dorian's relationship as I saw in this one, that is why I am uncomfortable. It is background only. As I said, I don't judge people base on their sexual interest or even relationships, but that doesn't mean I don't get to be concern if I find a relationship unhealthy. If you decide to be offended because I find the relationship unhealthy, that is your problem, not mine.

 

Honestly, you are right, we don't know what is going on behind closed doors and we will never know nor convince the other is right or wrong.

 

That is why I actually stated above that I didn't see this thread going well, everyone is going to be offended about something.

 

(Also, I don't want less interesting characters, just because I don't like Bull, doesn't mean I want his character gone. I have literally never said that, I just wish his character was portrayed better).

 

 

Can I just pop in again so I can set something straight for myself: I do not recognize the relationship as abusive because I think Bull is being a dick because of the inherent mechanics of a dom/sub relationship. Others are saying the fact that Bull is being such a dick makes it abusive and the dom/sub part of the relationship isn't relevant to that abuse.

 

Is that about right?

Pretty much

[Sui Causa]

Or maybe Dorian is just embarassed because who he is sleeping with is suddenly a topic for very interested conversation and he needs to loosen up a bit because this isn't Tevinter where what he is is something to be ashamed of or persecuted for?

 

Maybe Bull will teach him all different kinds of types and styles of sex. Maybe Dorian will take what he learns, the confidence he gains in what he is, and find someone better than Bull to spend his life with?

 

Maybe it's not the unspoken cries for help from a crushed and broken victim who is desperate to escape?

[Wanderlust14]

Or maybe Dorian is just embarassed because who he is sleeping with is suddenly a topic for very interested conversation and he needs to loosen up a bit because this isn't Tevinter where what he is is something to be ashamed of or persecuted for?

 

Maybe Bull will teach him all different kinds of types and styles of sex. Maybe Dorian will take what he learns, the confidence he gains in what he is, and find someone better than Bull to spend his life with?

 

Maybe it's not the unspoken cries for help from a crushed and broken victim who is desperate to escape?

 

He never cared with the Inquisitor. He is even willing to draw diagrams. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Or maybe Dorian is just embarassed because who he is sleeping with is suddenly a topic for very interested conversation and he needs to loosen up a bit because this isn't Tevinter where what he is is something to be ashamed of or persecuted for?

 

Maybe Bull will teach him all different kinds of types and styles of sex. Maybe Dorian will take what he learns, the confidence he gains in what he is, and find someone better than Bull to spend his life with?

 

Maybe it's not the unspoken cries for help from a crushed and broken victim who is desperate to escape?

People keep bring it this up when it's completely false. Dorian shows zero embarrassment when people bring up his relationship with the Inquisitor. He'll happily talk about it. He even makes a joke about his own sex life to Sera.

 

The embarrassment isn't coming from his sexuality, it's specifically regarding his relationship with Bull.

[Sui Causa]

The Inquisitor is The Inquisitor. He's sleeping with the most powerful man in Thedas at that time. I haven't romanced Dorian so I don't know if he's top or bottom, but I suspect with an elf mage he might be top, and then that's all the more ego boost.

 

Bull is/was a quinari spy. A lewd, loud, animalistic lover. There's no doubt in hell who's on top and doing what. He enjoys strutting around like a peacock. Bull is not exactly a feather he'd want to proudly display in his cap.

 

You really don't see a difference at all?

[(Disgusted noise.)]

The Inquisitor is The Inquisitor. He's sleeping with the most powerful man in Thedas at that time. I haven't romanced Dorian so I don't know if he's top or bottom, but I suspect with an elf mage he might be top, and then that's all the more ego boost.

 

Bull is/was a quinari spy. A lewd, loud, animalistic lover. There's no doubt in hell who's on top and doing what. He enjoys strutting around like a peacock. Bull is not exactly a feather he'd want to proudly display in his cap.

 

You really don't see a difference at all?

I do. The Inquisitor respects Dorian and Dorian is proud of that relationship. Bull doesn't respect Dorian and Dorian is embarrassed by that relationship.

[daveliam]

The Inquisitor is The Inquisitor. He's sleeping with the most powerful man in Thedas at that time. I haven't romanced Dorian so I don't know if he's top or bottom, but I suspect with an elf mage he might be top, and then that's all the more ego boost.

 

There's a line in the Dorian romance about "I'll let you inquisit me again and this time I'll tell you how do to it right" (total paraphrase there) that make some believe that Dorian is a bottom.  I've also seen some people refute that.

[Fredward]

Dorian sounds irritated and uncomfortable every time the subject is brought up. That does not sound like someone who's enjoying embarrassed.

 

You can't enjoy being embarrassed while you're being humiliated otherwise you're doing it wrong. That discomfort is part of the appeal of being in that kind of relationship.

 

Dorian has never had another man show an interest in him romantically. This is the best opportunity he's ever been given and he has nothing to compare it to.

 

This is the Dorian as ingenue part that I don't get. We don't know Dorian's romantic history, all we know is that he does not expect lasting affection, romance or love from where he's from. Not that these things don't exist. Not that he's not worthy of these things. You do not need to directly experience something to feel that you deserve it or want it above the alternatives. Your first exposure to something does not mean you have to fall into it blindly, grasping out of sheer desperation. That doesn't make any sense to my brain.

 

Who says it was fair. All I am saying is I saw similar flags in Bull's and Dorian's relationship as I saw in this one, that is why I am uncomfortable. It is background only. As I said, I don't judge people base on their sexual interest or even relationships, but that doesn't mean I don't get to be concern if I find a relationship unhealthy. If you decide to be offended because I find the relationship unhealthy, that is your problem, not mine.

 

Honestly, you are right, we don't know what is going on behind closed doors and we will never know nor convince the other is right or wrong.

 

That is why I actually stated above that I didn't see this thread going well, everyone is going to be offended about something.

 

(Also, I don't want less interesting characters, just because I don't like Bull, doesn't mean I want his character gone. I have literally never said that, I just wish his character was portrayed better).

 

 

Pretty much

 

So is your problem with this that you genuinely believe it is abuse and object to it on that level or that you kinda sorta see similarities to an abusive relationship you witnessed once and that makes you uncomfortable and you'd rather it wasn't there?

[Ryzaki]

I do. The Inquisitor respects Dorian and Dorian is proud of that relationship. Bull doesn't respect Dorian and Dorian is embarrassed by that relationship.

 

A relationship he chooses to stay in and started knowing how IB was.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

There's a line in the Dorian romance about "I'll let you inquisit me again and this time I'll tell you how do to it right" (total paraphrase there) that make some believe that Dorian is a bottom.  I've also seen some people refute that.

I don't really see why it matters either way. Reducing a gay man to how he likes to have sex is pretty damn offensive. How you get your rocks off doesn't define your personality or the way you deserve to be treated.

[daveliam]

I don't really see why it matters either way. Reducing a gay man to how he likes to have sex is pretty damn offensive. How you get your rocks off doesn't define your personality or the way you deserve to be treated.

 

I agree.  I was simply responding to the other post about it.  I don't really want them to explore who tops and who bottoms in the relationships.  I'd greatly prefer for that to be left to the imagination.  And it certainly has not impact on how people deserve to be treated.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

 

 

 

This is the Dorian as ingenue part that I don't get. We don't know Dorian's romantic history, all we know is that he does not expect lasting affection, romance or love from where he's from. Not that these things don't exist. Not that he's not worthy of these things. You do not need to directly experience something to feel that you deserve it or want it above the alternatives. Your first exposure to something does not mean you have to fall into it blindly, grasping out of sheer desperation. That doesn't make any sense to my brain.

Actually we do. While talking to the Inquisitor:

 

"What is it you want from me exactly? A relationship? Where I come from, anything between men is physical. It doesn't go beyond that. It's not that you don't care... you just don't hope for more. ("This is more.") You say that like it's a simple thing easily imagined. I have no examples with which to compare. ("So you want to call it off?") No. It's just that you're asking me to turn into a unicorn and I don't even know what one looks like."

 

Dorian has zero context on how a romantic relationship ought to be. He never even allowed himself to hope for one and now he has one in front of him, which he would probably consider better than nothing even if he's not happy in it.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

A relationship he chooses to stay in and started knowing how IB was.

Which has no bearing on whether it's an unhealthy relationship or not.

[Wanderlust14]

 

So is your problem with this that you genuinely believe it is abuse and object to it on that level or that you kinda sorta see similarities to an abusive relationship you witnessed once and that makes you uncomfortable and you'd rather it wasn't there?

I do see it as abusive and wish it wasn't there, but I think some of that stems from the way their relationship was written, which I didn't particularly like.

 

Also, may I say, I appreciate the way you are asking questions and are listening to the responds. It is very civilize and you don't see that a lot. 

[Ryzaki]

Which has no bearing on whether it's an unhealthy relationship or not.

 

We're going with unhealthy or abusive? Because the two aren't interchangeable to me.

 

Because yeah I don't feel it's a warm and fuzzies relationship...neither are most of the relationships in Dragon Age.

 

It's the Bull abusing Dorian bit where I disagree.