The one gripe I have about it is that Bull doesn't really explain what we're getting into at first. He gives a bunch of vague hints and warnings, but nothing clear. And he only establishes the safeword after the deed. That's a little iffy to me.
Edit: actually it's very iffy. Bad dom etiquette!
This I can agree on. This is the one thing about Bull's romance I wish was a little different, so the player could better understand what they were getting into.
We're going with unhealthy or abusive? Because the two aren't interchangeable to me.
Because yeah I don't feel it's a warm and fuzzies relationship...neither are most of the relationships in Dragon Age.
It's the Bull abusing Dorian bit where I disagree.
I think constantly airing their sex life to other people after knowing Dorian is uncomfortable with it, and most importantly telling Dorian that his opinion about it is meaningless, is abusive. Other people may not agree, but that's my opinion about it.
We're going with unhealthy or abusive? Because the two aren't interchangeable to me.
Because yeah I don't feel it's a warm and fuzzies relationship...neither are most of the relationships in Dragon Age.
It's the Bull abusing Dorian bit where I disagree.
This is how I feel about it. I don't think it's a healthy relationship on either part. But I'm not convinced that there's any emotional abuse happening. I think that it's two different things. However, people's strong reactions to it are making me question if there's something happening that I am just not picking up on because I've never experienced it in the past myself.
I think constantly airing their sex life to other people after knowing Dorian is uncomfortable with it, and most importantly telling Dorian that his opinion about it is meaningless, is abusive. Other people may not agree, but that's my opinion about it.
Yeah I disagree. Embarrassing yes. Abusive no.
Dorian doesn't strike me as the type of character to be abused. He didn't like how his father was treating him so he left. He doesn't like some Tevinter practices: he says he's inspired by the inquisitor to return to Tevinter and fix them.
Just because somebody doesn't seem like "the type to be abused" that doesn't mean they can't wind up in an abusive relationship, not even if they've escaped from another already.
This is how I feel about it. I don't think it's a healthy relationship on either part. But I'm not convinced that there's any emotional abuse happening. I think that it's two different things. However, people's strong reactions to it are making me question if there's something happening that I am just not picking up on because I've never experienced it in the past myself.
Well I've been emotionally abused myself by family rather than an intimate partner mind...and I didn't get any vibes from that banter. But it's clearly a YMMV situation (and probably was intended that way).
Yeah I disagree. Embarrassing yes. Abusive no.
To me, embarrassing would be ripping a fart while running around the Hinterlands, not someone who supposedly cares about me shaming me publicly and belittling my reaction to it. Embarrassed doesn't begin to describe that, in my opinion.
To me, embarrassing would be ripping a fart while running around the Hinterlands, not someone who supposedly cares about me shaming me publicly and belittling my reaction to it. Embarrassed doesn't begin to describe that, in my opinion.
Except Dorian didn't strike me as deeply shamed. Annoyed? Definitely. Especially given the "I may come by" remarks.
In the same banter that Dorian complains about Bulls' indescretion, he says he's going to be going to Bull's rooms willingly that night if he's "enough of a savage to keep his door unlocked". I think he got over his embarassment.
Might as well link it so everyone can see it in its glory:
(Also this reminds me Bull doesn't give me an extra comment for being a mage either wtf Bull? I can excuse the refusing to comment on the hair but the magic?!? You jerk 
)
I like how Gaider explained it. Is it a healthy relationship? Probably not, And they are both smart enough to be aware of that, but keep on because there's some passion there. But abusive is just going a little too far imo, if what we're basing that on is Dorian being annoyed talking openly about it and the bickering back and forth. I have to give Dorian enough credit to believe that if it was actually bothering him to the point to be considered abuse, he would end it instead of making further remarks suggesting he wanted to continue. But that's just where personal opinion comes into play, so while some may interpret it as one thing, others won't.
I think there is one thing lacking in Dorian's relationship with Bull. Everybody (the companions, that is) treat it as a bit of a joke. Not once does anyone ask if Dorian is happy. My Inquisitor is friends with Dorian and, from an outside perspective, the way Dorian acts about the relationship (embarrassed, evasive a little even) could raise concern from a friend. I wish we had an option to ask him if he was happy. That's just being a friend.
Now, the whole dom/sub dynamic. It requires a lot of open communication to establish what is ok and not, hard limits and soft limits and all that. There are oodles of variations in BDSM relationship and they are certainly not immune to abuse. There are some bad doms out there and some bad subs too. How can a sub be bad? Well, it's someone who doesn't assert their limits and lets it go too far. They're too hungry for approval from the dom. Bad doms are selfish jerks who don't care what the sub wants.
The thing is: both the dom and the sub are playing a role. The dom plays the part of being supremely confident and in control (we know Iron Bull is conflicted about his allegiances) while the sub plays someone meek and obedient. (Dorian is a rebel with absolute confidence in his abilities as a mage and the righteousness of his cause.)
It could very well be that they enjoy the role reversal. The relationship between the Inquisitor and Dorian is very lovey-dovey. We don't know what ground rules IB and Dorian established.
Which brings me back to my point: we should be able to ask Dorian if he is happy. Or maybe call out IB on being a jerk and Dorian interjecting that 'we're spoiling the effect'. That would clear things up nicely.
Oh I agree we should've been able to ask if Dorian was happy. It's weird that's missing. =/
Coincidentally, David Gaider addressed this in a tumblr post just recently. Go have a read.
I think there is one thing lacking in Dorian's relationship with Bull. Everybody (the companions, that is) treat it as a bit of a joke. Not once does anyone ask if Dorian is happy. My Inquisitor is friends with Dorian and, from an outside perspective, the way Dorian acts about the relationship (embarrassed, evasive a little even) could raise concern from a friend. I wish we had an option to ask him if he was happy. That's just being a friend.
Now, the whole dom/sub dynamic. It requires a lot of open communication to establish what is ok and not, hard limits and soft limits and all that. There are oodles of variations in BDSM relationship and they are certainly not immune to abuse. There are some bad doms out there and some bad subs too. How can a sub be bad? Well, it's someone who doesn't assert their limits and lets it go too far. They're too hungry for approval from the dom. Bad doms are selfish jerks who don't care what the sub wants.
The thing is: both the dom and the sub are playing a role. The dom plays the part of being supremely confident and in control (we know Iron Bull is conflicted about his allegiances) while the sub plays someone meek and obedient. (Dorian is a rebel with absolute confidence in his abilities as a mage and the righteousness of his cause.)
It could very well be that they enjoy the role reversal. The relationship between the Inquisitor and Dorian is very lovey-dovey. We don't know what ground rules IB and Dorian established.
Which brings me back to my point: we should be able to ask Dorian if he is happy. Or maybe call out IB on being a jerk and Dorian interjecting that 'we're spoiling the effect'. That would clear things up nicely.
That would have been nice and it is my biggest issue, I didn't think it was written well (more as a joke than something serious), but I doubt anyone will convince anyone else here. We all have our own opinions.
Yesssss. I would love to be able to ask him too. Just so there's more sexy Bull related goodness in my game, even when I roll a female character to romance Cullen. >.> The downside is a lot of Iron Bull related things seem a little under-explored. But that's the game, and bioware. That's what fanfiction is for!
Hmm, I see where people are coming from in that Iron Bull's first banter with Dorian made me raise my eyebrows, but it quickly becomes obvious to me that Dorian is interested, although he may not have preferred to air it in front of the group. When you talk to Iron Bull about it, he has a lot of respect for Dorian and thinks they'll be good for each other. The really good part is that he cares about Dorian for exactly who he is and wouldn't want him to change a bit, which is just what Dorian hasn't had in the past. I really didn't have a problem for it, although that first banter was a bit over the top. That may have been the point. I mean, Dorian is perfectly capable of carving people up verbally, so that fact that he's at a loss for words there spoke volumes to me about the fact that he didn't actually want to shut Iron Bull down.
You can ask Dorian about it as a friend and Dorian says nothing to indicate he wants to end the relationship or thinks there's something amiss. I think his interest surprised him, but he's interested to see where it goes. That doesn't mean it *will* work out, of course, but it doesn't seem that they're in a bad place to start. Both are cut off from their homes and their pasts, but are articulate and caring. Bull lacks discretion and is agressive about pursuing his interest, but he's not a guy who wants someone who doesn't want him, either.
Actually we do. While talking to the Inquisitor:
"What is it you want from me exactly? A relationship? Where I come from, anything between men is physical. It doesn't go beyond that. It's not that you don't care... you just don't hope for more. ("This is more.") You say that like it's a simple thing easily imagined. I have no examples with which to compare. ("So you want to call it off?") No. It's just that you're asking me to turn into a unicorn and I don't even know what one looks like."
Dorian has zero context on how a romantic relationship ought to be. He never even allowed himself to hope for one and now he has one in front of him, which he would probably consider better than nothing even if he's not happy in it.
My bad. So Dorian might be a bit of an ingenue when it comes to matters of the heart, I imagine he'd be easy pickings if someone were inclined to roll a assquisitor that purposefully set out to seduce the idealistic Tevinter only to break his heart later cuz he wouldn't see that duplicity coming because innocent but that's not really what Bull does, is it? Bull wants sex and is pretty clear about this. Now is there such a profound loneliness or need for companionship in Dorian that he would be with someone who shames him publicly and, going by observed interactions, he does not even seem to like that much if he didn't want to be? Could he have been suckered into it and is now too timid to leave?
I realize that fictional characters are always going to be polysemic, open to interpretation and projection and all that fun stuff but that is NOT the read I got from Dorian. I could see him possibly being seduced by someone who only ever wanted to use him but I can't see him being with someone who seems to, very unapologetically, want him primarily for his ass if he didn't want to be in that relationship.
Hmm, I see where people are coming from in that Iron Bull's first banter with Dorian made me raise my eyebrows, but it quickly becomes obvious to me that Dorian is interested, although he may not have preferred to air it in front of the group. When you talk to Iron Bull about it, he has a lot of respect for Dorian and thinks they'll be good for each other. I really didn't have a problem for it, although that first banter was a bit over the top. That may have been the point. I mean, Dorian is perfectly capable of carving people up verbally, so that fact that he's at a loss for words there spoke volumes to me about the fact that he didn't actually want to shut Iron Bull down.
Actually it wasn't the first banter I had an issue with. In fact, the first banter I heard, I was fine with and excited to see that they would have a relationship, since I was interested in their relationship and wanted to see where it would go (and had hoped for something romantic, before I knew both their characters). It was later banters that I started to find it troubling
Not all romances are sugar canes and butterflies.
No, you know... it's DA, there's hardly any romance that are sugar canes and butterflies.
I'd even say there are too many unnecessary dramas.
No, you know... it's DA, there's hardly any romance that are sugar canes and butterflies.
I'd even say there are too many unnecessary dramas.
I wanted to comment on this bit because ir really got on my nerves. I'll make this very short and to the point, because it's such a simple idea that it shouldn't be hard to comprehend at all (and yet it seems it is).
Not everyone meets their respective stereotypes. But SOME do. And there's absolutely nothing wrong about it.
There's absolutely no problem with a "manly" lesbian, or a sassy gay, or a promiscuous bisexual.
If Bull was the only bisexual in Thedas, or if every bisexual in Thedas was depicted that way, then you'd have a point. But that's not the case. And telling someone (be them a character or a real person) how they are supposed to behave to meet YOUR standards is not "good representation" nor "acceptance".
Precisely. Josephine is a great example of a non-slutty bisexual, which is even more impressive when you consider how most media portray bisexual women. That said, Bioware is a little overly fond of this particular trope. Zevran, Isabella and Iron Bull are perfect examples of it, and though Leliana is less extreme, she had some wild years in there. I agree that it's cool to indulge the stereotype every now and then, but when four out of five bi options are like that, you've got an issue.
No, you know... it's DA, there's hardly any romance that are sugar canes and butterflies.
I'd even say there are too many unnecessary dramas.
There really is, someone listed all the straight women love interests that end with problems (death, cheating, madness) and I realized that they really do have some great love interest, but the worst luck with them.
Ce sujet est fermé
Retour en haut