No, you know... it's DA, there's hardly any romance that are sugar canes and butterflies.
I'd even say there are too many unnecessary dramas.
I'm outta likes but yeah.
I think the two sweetest romances we get that don't involve the PC are lady and papa Cousland (and we all know what happens there), and Aveline and Donnic.
Precisely. Josephine is a great example of a non-slutty bisexual, which is even more impressive when you consider how most media portray bisexual women. That said, Bioware is a little overly fond of this particular trope. Zevran, Isabella and Iron Bull are perfect examples of it, and though Leliana is less extreme, she had some wild years in there. I agree that it's cool to indulge the stereotype every now and then, but when four out of five bi options are like that, you've got an issue.
To be fair, it's not really four out of five, right?
Zev, Isabela, and Bull all fit into this trope.
Leliana and Anders could, depending on how you view their pasts (I tend to think that they don't).
Merrill, Fenris, and Josephine don't fit the trope.
So, all in all, it's pretty well spread out.
All relationships have drama at some point, unless you're very lucky
When there's too much of it it gets boring and predictable and... well, it's ok when some romances are that way, but almost all of them? At some point people won't do them at all, because why even bother.
Leliana and Anders could, depending on how you view their pasts (I tend to think that they don't).
Anders kinda is/was, actually, it's not a matter of view if one played Awakening and listened to his banter with Isabella in DA2...
To be fair, it's not really four out of five, right?
Zev, Isabela, and Bull all fit into this trope.
Leliana and Anders could, depending on how you view their pasts (I tend to think that they don't).
Merrill, Fenris, and Josephine don't fit the trope.
So, all in all, it's pretty well spread out.
Well, the problem with that is that Merrill, Fenris, and Josephine go too far the other way. They don't discuss their sexuality at all. (Other than the possible Isabela/Blackwall stuff.) It would be nice if they could figure out how to make someone unapologetically bisexual without also making them promiscuous.
As usual, I agree with my waifu Basement Cat.
The problem with the Dorian/Bull relationship is that it's so vague and so unexplored, we don't know. Sure, you can come up with all the rationale and explanations you want, and they can make total sense and be a consenual, happy relationship that has no abusive or gross elements, but you can also easily read it as something uncomfortable and upsetting.
If I had a friend who was in a relationship like that and I couldn't make sure they were okay with everything, and that this was making them happy, and all I could hear was the snippets I heard with Dorian/IB, I'd be worried. I wouldn't be judgmental if I found out they were perfectly happy and it's what they wanted, I would be happy for them and enjoy their happiness. But I'd want to be sure first, and you can't do that here, so the "bad" reading of it that people are getting is just as valid as the "good" one. Being able to ask Dorian about it would have gotten rid of that issue, but it didn't happen, unfortunately.
I think we would all have a better discussion about this if we acknowledged that there are multiple possible readings and the ambiguity of the text doesn't allow us to agree on one, because then we could untangle it without yelling at each other and accidentally saying offensive things.
I'm outta likes but yeah.
I think the two sweetest romances we get that don't involve the PC are lady and papa Cousland (and we all know what happens there), and Aveline and Donnic.
I love Aveline but her courting strategies were... questionable.
To be fair, it's not really four out of five, right?
Zev, Isabela, and Bull all fit into this trope.
Leliana and Anders could, depending on how you view their pasts (I tend to think that they don't).
Merrill, Fenris, and Josephine don't fit the trope.
So, all in all, it's pretty well spread out.
I think this comes down to your definition of "bisexual." Personally, I seperate "being interested in Hawke" from "being interested in both genders." Hawke could easily be an exception for a straight or gay person, just as Dorian was an exception for a lot of straight male gamers in Inquisition. And anyway, the "everyone is bi so everyone can love Hawke" writing strategy isn't very believable. We don't have much proof that Merrill or Fenris bend both ways since various possiblities are not consistent across universes. Anders and Isabella both have other relationships that show their leanings. As for Anders, I always got the impression he was gay-with-an-exception, but I could be wrong.
But I recognize that this is totally a personal distinction, so if you do count everyone, then I'd argue that Anders fits the trope in the same way that Leliana does. So that's five out of eight. Arguable either way as to whether that's a problem.
Dorian and Iron Bull are big boys. Especially Bull. If Dorian felt abused, he'd leave. Which he does, if you punch him... Which is actually possible while you're in a relationship.
I think this comes down to your definition of "bisexual." Personally, I seperate "being interested in Hawke" from "being interested in both genders." Hawke could easily be an exception for a straight or gay person, just as Dorian was an exception for a lot of straight male gamers in Inquisition. And anyway, the "everyone is bi so everyone can love Hawke" writing strategy isn't very believable. We don't have much proof that Merrill or Fenris bend both ways since various possiblities are not consistent across universes. Anders and Isabella both have other relationships that show their leanings. As for Anders, I always got the impression he was gay-with-an-exception, but I could be wrong.
But I recognize that this is totally a personal distinction, so if you do count everyone, then I'd argue that Anders fits the trope in the same way that Leliana does. So that's five out of eight. Arguable either way as to whether that's a problem.
The writers have confirmed that Merrill, Anders, Isabela, and Fenris are all bisexual. It's not really up for interpretation any more.
Count me in as one of the people who hates the idea of Dorian and Bull together. Mind you, I know we are getting snippets of their relationship and at best we can only argue about the party banter cause the rest is just subjective.
Why do I find IB/Dorian abusive? IB humiliates him in public. IMO, I don't see how that is a part of the BDS&M culture. Dorian clearly dosen't want to talk about it, yet IB not only allows others to mock Dorian but joins in. His relationship with IB is considered a joke and everyone is laughing except for Dorian.
Also, from romancing Dorian I believe he is a very lonely person who hides his feelings through wit and charm. You really have to decipher him during the romance cause he'll say a whole slew of one thing but mean something else entirely. His biggest fear after the romance scene is whether or not the Inquisitor will dump him. He'll say he doesn't like it but will understand as he's been a port in the storm before. This is not a confident man, he is very insecure. Yes, he understands sex is typically nothing but pleasure for men. But he does not like that. It's simply something he accepts. The way I see it, he went for IB cause he's desperate and IB accepts him coming back. it's probably the closest thing to a relationship he'd ever known, but he's embarrassed by it.
He is totally different during his romance with the Inquisitor. He is open to discussion, protective of it when he thought Vivienne did something, and is laughing and having fun. With IB, he just wants everyone to shut up about it. Just like he was open to Cole discussing his relationship with the Inquisitor and was smiling but wanted Cole to remain quiet about his father and Relinus. One makes him happy and the other doesn't.
That's how I see it.
As usual, I agree with my waifu Basement Cat.
The problem with the Dorian/Bull relationship is that it's so vague and so unexplored, we don't know. Sure, you can come up with all the rationale and explanations you want, and they can make total sense and be a consenual, happy relationship that has no abusive or gross elements, but you can also easily read it as something uncomfortable and upsetting.
If I had a friend who was in a relationship like that and I couldn't make sure they were okay with everything, and that this was making them happy, and all I could hear was the snippets I heard with Dorian/IB, I'd be worried. I wouldn't be judgmental if I found out they were perfectly happy and it's what they wanted, I would be happy for them and enjoy their happiness. But I'd want to be sure first, and you can't do that here, so the "bad" reading of it that people are getting is just as valid as the "good" one. Being able to ask Dorian about it would have gotten rid of that issue, but it didn't happen, unfortunately.
I think we would all have a better discussion about this if we acknowledged that there are multiple possible readings and the ambiguity of the text doesn't allow us to agree on one, because then we could untangle it without yelling at each other and accidentally saying offensive things.
It wouldnt be the internet if we could have mature discussions without yelling or accidentally offending other people. 
Though, it would be nice if that did happen and it does seem to be going in that way now, which is always pleasant to see.
Anyway, I agree with what you said about it all really.
If Dorian felt abused, he'd leave.
"Not always true", i don't remember who said that in DAI, but he/she was damn right.
Dorian and Iron Bull are big boys. Especially Bull. If Dorian felt abused, he'd leave. Which he does, if you punch him... Which is actually possible while you're in a relationship.
I really don't want to get into it again, but I am going to say one thing and leave it at that. Abusive relationships aren't always so easy to leave, it is why you see cycles happening of the abused leaving and then returning.
That is it, I just hate seeing the idea that people who are being abused leave and if they don't they must be happy.
Bravo! I really enjoyed that and sung it in my headIs it just me or the song "Baby it's cold outside" sounds like something happens between Iron Bull and Dorian?
Dorian: I really can't stay
Iron Bull: Baby it's cold outside
Dorian: I've got to go away
Iron Bull: Baby it's cold outside
Dorian: This evening has been
Iron Bull: Been hoping that you'd drop in
Dorian: So very nice
Iron Bull: I'll hold your hands, they're just like ice
Dorian: My mother will start to worry
Iron Bull: Beautiful, what's your hurry?
Dorian: Father will start using blood magic.
Iron Bull: Listen to the fireplace roar
Dorian: So really I'd better scurry
Iron Bull: Beautiful, please don't hurry
Dorian: Maybe just a half a drink more
Iron Bull: Put some records on while I pour
Dorian: Our companions might think
Iron Bull: Baby, it's bad out there
Dorian: Say, what's in this drink?
Iron Bull: No horses to be had out there
Dorian: I wish I knew how
Iron Bull: Your eyes are like starlight now
Dorian: To break this spell
Iron Bull: I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell
Dorian: I ought to say no, no, no
Iron Bull: Mind if I move in closer?
Dorian: At least I'm gonna say that I tried
Iron Bull: What's the sense in hurting my pride?
Dorian: I really can't stay
Iron Bull: Baby don't hold out
Dorian and Iron Bull: Ah, but it's cold outside
Okay I'm sorry but really.
Bull decides to start an relationship with Dorian and abuse him...for what reason exactly?
His amusement?
He just decides to turn into a douche with Dorian and not the Inquisitor?
And Dorian is enough of a wilting flower to accept this behavior? Cause I'm really not seeing it.
I wanna say a last thing before I go to bed based off of my own thoughts, the interpretations I've gathered from others here and the deep observations I just had in the shower. ~ahem~
Dorian is in a somewhat precipitous place emotionally. He wants actual intimacy with a man instead of just sex but he is not gagging for it (pun only kinda intended) so he's willing to 'settle' but has too much self-respect to settle for something that makes him fundamentally unhappy and would only give him a pale facsimile of the intimacy he desires. Enter Bull. I imagine Dorian's relationship with Bull has a satisfaction level somewhere between 
and (except during sex where it's 
) but never dips to 
. He is not UNHAPPY with his relationship with Bull and he often enjoys it but he knows it is not really what he wants. Bull is being morally dubious by taking advantage of the Tevinter's somewhat fragile emotional state in the same way the random stranger in the bar is being morally dubious when they can sense something emotionally off-kilter about the person dragging them to the supply closet to partake in ill-advised revenge sex. BUT, and this is an important but, this is taking advantage of and not manipulating or coercing. Bull does not dress up his intentions or act a certain way to get Dorian out of his pants he simply submits his interest.
Now the reason I can't see this as abuse is because it happens on Dorian's own impetus. It would stop if Dorian wanted it to stop. Is he making a mistake? Quite possibly if he winds up investing more into the relationship than Bull is willing to give. But it is HIS mistake to make. He is consciously and continuously choosing to remain in this relationship (which means this is not the same kind of sinister 'taking advantage of' that goes with something being totally shitfaced/unable to give consent and you know it so don't even try to equate the two, there's a reason I used the stranger + revenge sex analogy) and if that eventually makes him unhappy (I genuinely don't think he's unhappy now) that is on his head and Bull's too albeit, in my opinion, to a somewhat lesser degree. Only somewhat though, he's hardly an unsuspecting bystander.
Now I'm sure someone is going to call this victim blaming and I just want to say that 1) I fundamentally reject the idea of their being a 'victim' in this relationship and 2)... I actually forgot what my second point was but I'm sure it was extremely on point and germane.
I really don't want to get into it again, but I am going to say one thing and leave it at that. Abusive relationships aren't always so easy to leave, it is why you see cycles happening of the abused leaving and then returning.
That is it, I just hate seeing the idea that people who are being abused leave and if they don't they must be happy.
There are so many possible complications. If there are children it makes it all that much more difficult. As for people who do leave abusive relationships, that doesn't mean the nightmare is over. Many people are murdered by their abuser after they have left. Abusers are horrible people, and fear does a great job of keeping their victims helpless.
The typical M.O. of an abuser is to start off as charming or playing the victim to get sympathy, then they slowly but surely work on isolating their victim from their family/friends so they have no support network and then they proceed to destroy their confidence. They make their victim dependent on them. Leaving a jerk? Easy enough. Leaving an actual abuser? Tricky. They are cunning.
Okay I'm sorry but really.
Bull decides to start an relationship with Dorian and abuse him...for what reason exactly?
His amusement?
He just decides to turn into a douche with Dorian and not the Inquisitor?
And Dorian is enough of a wilting flower to accept this behavior? Cause I'm really not seeing it.
Pff, not regarding Bull and others, but why not? People are different. People behave differently with different people around them, and they act differently with you and the others. Is that really a surprise?
Okay I'm sorry but really.
Bull decides to start an relationship with Dorian and abuse him...for what reason exactly?
His amusement?
He just decides to turn into a douche with Dorian and not the Inquisitor?
And Dorian is enough of a wilting flower to accept this behavior? Cause I'm really not seeing it.
Oh dear. The motivations of an abuser can be difficult to pin down, but their own gratification is often one of them.
Oh dear. The motivations of an abuser can be difficult to pin down, but their own gratification is often one of them.
Does Bull really strike you as the type though? And from that vid I posted I'm not seeing Dorian as some mere shadow of himself. Aggravated and annoyed yes but not some codependent person.
Believe me I don't need a lecture on how abusers work. I've been the victim of enough to know it varies.
Pff, not regarding Bull and others, but why not? People are different. People behave differently with different people around them, and they act differently with you and the others. Is that really a surprise?
It was about Bull though. I'm well aware people do some screwed up things because they can.
The writers have confirmed that Merrill, Anders, Isabela, and Fenris are all bisexual. It's not really up for interpretation any more.
Whoops! Never mind, then. I still maintain that they could have more diversity in their bi portrayals, but that's just me.
So about the Bull too. Why can't he act differently with Dorian? I mean, come on, the Inq and Dorian may have nothing in common at all. And yes, I think he respests the Inq more and it adds to that too.
There are so many possible complications. If there are children it makes it all that much more difficult. As for people who do leave abusive relationships, that doesn't mean the nightmare is over. Many people are murdered by their abuser after they have left. Abusers are horrible people, and fear does a great job of keeping their victims helpless.
The typical M.O. of an abuser is to start off as charming or playing the victim to get sympathy, then they slowly but surely work on isolating their victim from their family/friends so they have no support network and then they proceed to destroy their confidence. They make their victim dependent on them. Leaving a jerk? Easy enough. Leaving an actual abuser? Tricky. They are cunning.
Exactly, it is extremely difficult for people and hate for that misconception to be here.
Does Bull really strike you as the type though?
Believe me I don't need a lecture on how abusers work. I've been the victim of enough to know it varies.
It was about Bull though. I'm well aware people do some screwed up things because they can.
People who abuse others don't often think of themselves as abusers. Very few people think that they wear the black hats in the world. Most think they wear the white hats. What hat they are actually wearing can really depend on the point of view of others.
So about the Bull too. Why can't he act differently with Dorian? I mean, come on, the Inq and Dorian may have nothing in common at all. And yes, I think he respests the Inq more and it adds to that too.
There's a far cry between act differently an abuse.
Okay I'm sorry but really.
Bull decides to start an relationship with Dorian and abuse him...for what reason exactly?
His amusement?
He just decides to turn into a douche with Dorian and not the Inquisitor?
And Dorian is enough of a wilting flower to accept this behavior? Cause I'm really not seeing it.
Because people start relationships whether they are abusers or not. That happens every single day.
IB does get amusement from mocking Dorian, at least that;s what I get out of the banter. Or he gets amusement from others doing it or he just doesn't care enough to stop it.
I've never romanced IB so I can't say how he is. Some people have said they felt uncomfortable with IB so that depends on how you interpret the IB/Quizzy romance.
Dorian is no wilting flower, but he isn't superman either. Like I said, he does a lot of saying one thing while feeling something else.
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