437 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

People who abuse others don't often think of themselves as abusers. Very few people think that they wear the black hats in the world. Most think they wear the white hats. What hat they are actually wearing can really depend on the point of view of others. 

 

That's all true but again what in that vid I posted makes you think Bull's abusing Dorian by exploiting his fears and insecurities?

 

See I can easily see the romance as unhealthy and two people who aren't that good for each other doing a fling and seeing where it goes. It's the Bull's manipulating and using poor Dorian where I go

[Ryzaki]

Because people start relationships whether they are abusers or not. That happens every single day.

 

IB does get amusement from mocking Dorian, at least that;s what I get out of the banter. Or he gets amusement from others doing it  or he just doesn't care enough to stop it.

 

I've never romanced IB so I can't say how he is. Some people have said they felt uncomfortable with IB so that depends on how you interpret the IB/Quizzy romance.

 

Dorian is no wilting flower, but he isn't superman either. Like I said, he does a lot of saying one thing while feeling something else.

 

So...Bull strikes you as the type to start a relationship with the intention of abusing Dorian.

 

Bull getting amusement from embarrassing someone? Yep. Does the same to Cassandra if she's romancing the male PC. (hell you can even join in).

 

My main discomfort was the whole safe word not being established from the very beginning and the whole patronizing "I know what you need" thing. YMMV on that.

 

You don't have to be Superman not to have people walk all over you or walk away from a non serious relationship (since it only started with drunken hookups).

[Sui Causa]

Bull has to walk a very careful line with the Inquisitor. He's trying to empower him, relieve stress, through powerplay. But if the Orlesian court had things like their relationship to use against the Inquisitor, he would lose face. The Inquisitor is his boss. He respects him and encourages other to by being fiercely private because it is a power issue that the Inquisitor must maintain in order to lead the Inquisition and not have his private life dragged into the mess every time someone decided to challenge him.

 

Dorian is not the Inquisitor. Bull treats him just like one of the guys. He teases him like he teases Krem. He's open about their relationship because it doesn't have to be a secret, it's Dorian's ego that is at stake, not the ability to lead the world away from it's own destruction.

 

That said, the people that Iron Bull has talked about having sex with, and the people who react to Bull, are in no way viewing him as some kind of predator. He sleeps with the serving girls by letting them "bounce on top and telling them their ****** look good." The chantry ladies were very "thankful". Bull doesn't do abusive sex that makes you feel shitty about yourself at the end of the day. He does the opposite.

 

Bull is not an easy match for Dorian at all. It should have been explored further, and I mean that because this: Tevinter Mage x Quinari spy/ex-spy. There is so much there that could have been very fun to explore.

 

Then again, Bull obviously trusts Dorian's magic if he just laughs about him lighting curtains on fire, so they don't exactly have trust issues to explore. ;_;

[Vita Brevis]

There's a far cry between act differently an abuse.

I don't care how we call it really, but he treats the Inq with greater respect and don't brag about their relationship. So Inq/Bull is mostly ok for me.

And while I don't find Bull/Dorian being some stuff right from the nightmare, I don't like to hear what Bull says to him either. I always remember Hawke saying "I so didn't need to know that about either of you" (or something very close to that), and that was his response to a very tame banter with Anders and Bella. I don't understand why we can't tell him to stfu at the very least.

[Basement Cat]

Does Bull really strike you as the type though? And from that vid I posted I'm not seeing Dorian as some mere shadow of himself. Aggravated and annoyed yes but not some codependent person.

 

Believe me I don't need a lecture on how abusers work. I've been the victim of enough to know it varies.

 

 

 

It was about Bull though. I'm well aware people do some screwed up things because they can.

About Bull: my honest answer is I don't know. We only see snippets of their relationship and the outside view is always a little blurry. He certainly doesn't try to isolate Dorian.

 

My intention was not to lecture. I was merely contributing an explanation for the benefit of all readers.

[Chernaya]

Bull has to walk a very careful line with the Inquisitor. He's trying to empower him, relieve stress, through powerplay. But if the Orlesian court had things like their relationship to use against the Inquisitor, he would lose face. The Inquisitor is his boss. He respects him and encourages other to by being fiercely private because it is a power issue that the Inquisitor must maintain in order to lead the Inquisition and not have his private life dragged into the mess every time someone decided to challenge him.

 

Dorian is not the Inquisitor. Bull treats him just like one of the guys. He teases him like he teases Krem. He's open about their relationship because it doesn't have to be a secret, it's Dorian's ego that is at stake, not the ability to lead the world away from it's own destruction.

 

Excellent point! Hadn't thought about it in that way.

[Ryzaki]

About Bull: my honest answer is I don't know. We only see snippets of their relationship and the outside view is always a little blurry. He certainly doesn't try to isolate Dorian.

 

My intention was not to lecture. I was merely contributing an explanation for the benefit of all readers.

 

True enough.

 

My bad then. I'm a bit irritable at the moment

 

I don't care how we call it really, but he treats the Inq with greater respect and don't brag about their relationship. So Inq/Bull is mostly ok for me.

And while I don't find Bull/Dorian being some stuff right from the nightmare, I don't like to hear what Bull says to him either. I always remember Hawke saying "I so didn't need to know that about either of you" (or something very close to that), and that was his responce to a very tame banter with Anders and Bella. I don't understand why we can't tell him to stfu at the very least.

 

Has a lot to do with the PC being his superior I'd expect.

 

But yeah there should be a lot more "oh god stop." especially with some of the things Bull and Sera say :X

 

[Hazegurl]

So...Bull strikes you as the type to start a relationship with the intention of abusing Dorian.

 

Bull getting amusement from embarrassing someone? Yep. Does the same to Cassandra if she's romancing the male PC.

 

My main discomfort was the whole safe word not being established from the very beginning and the whole patronizing "I know what you need" thing. YMMV on that.

 

You don't have to be Superman not to have people walk all over you or walk away from a non serious relationship (since it only started with drunken hookups).

I'm not saying he started with the intention of abuse, but that abusers enter into relationships all the time.  I personally don't think IB respects Dorian. Which is why he treats him the way he does when he doesn't seem to do the same with the Quizzy or Vivienne. Doesn't he apologizes to Cass? Where is Dorian's apology?

 

You seem to believe walking away is easy, when it isn't. Not for everyone. I've already stated reasons why I think Dorian wouldn't just walk away. We'll have to just agree to disagree on that. Because I do see Dorian as insecure and lacking in confidence. He's great at playing pretend but that is only the surface.

[Ryzaki]

I'm not saying he started with the intention of abuse, but that abusers enter into relationships all the time.  I personally don't think IB respects Dorian. Which is why he treats him the way he does when he doesn't seem to do the same with the Quizzy or Vivienne. Doesn't he apologizes to Cass? Where is Dorian's apology?

 

You seem to believe walking away is easy, when it isn't. Not for everyone. I've already stated reasons why I think Dorian wouldn't just walk away. We'll have to just agree to disagree on that. Because I do see Dorian as insecure and lacking in confidence. He's great at playing pretend but that is only the surface.

 

Abusers don't randomly decide on one person to abuse. It's a history thing. You don't just start abusing people out of nowhere.

 

Vivienne wouldn't let anyone joke around with her like that much less embarrass her. Apologizes to Cass about talking about her leering at the Inquisitor? uh...not my recollection but if you have a link I'd love to see it.

 

He's walking away from a drunken hookup not a loving relationship that with south. There's a vast difference between the two. Unless Dorian's clingy enough he mistakes a drunken one night stand for true love I'm not seeing it. Also Dorian's not that insecure and lacking confidence. This is the man who walks away from everything he ever known and is trying to better his country from within.

[Vita Brevis]

 especially with some of the things Bull and Sera say :X

Oh yeah, and the thing he said to Cass. Also that.  It's funny Bull, but srsly. You should know where to stop.

 

Has a lot to do with the PC being his superior I'd expect.

Maybe. Maybe not. Because he also  won't dare to mock Vivienne, so it's more about I dunno... self esteem or something like that.

[Ryzaki]

Oh yeah, and the thing he said to Cass. Also that.  It's funny Bull, but srsly. You should know where to stop.

 

Maybe. Maybe not. Because he also  won't dare to mock Vivienne, so it's more about I dunno... self esteem or something like that.

 

So we've established he can be rude and vulgar. I just don't see how that translates to abuse.

 

More like self preservation. I'd imagine Vivienne would have words for him if he said something similar to her.

[Jaron Oberyn]

SMH is this really a thread?

[Vita Brevis]

So we've established he can be rude and vulgar. I just don't see how that translates to abuse.

One thing being rude and vulgar when you tell a rude joke, even when it involves... you know that thing he said to Cass. Still, it's very very close because Cass kind of a colleague, a comrade.

And a very different thing telling those jokes about your freaking lover. And especially when the said lover doesn't find those jokes funny,like, at all.

 

I don't care how people call it, but you have to admit those who find it offensive have every right for it. It's disturbing. Humiliating. I wouldn't care for those jokes if Dorian or Cass responded with a joke, but that's not what happened.

[Ryzaki]

One thing being rude and vulgar when you tell a rude joke, even when it involves... you know that thing he said to Cass. Still, it's very very close because Cass kind of a colleague, a comrade.

And a very different thing telling those jokes about your freaking lover. And especially when the said lover doesn't find those jokes funny,like, at all.

 

I don't care how people call it, but you have to admit those who find it offensive have every right for it. It's disturbing. Humiliating. I wouldn't care for those jokes if Dorian or Cass responded with a joke, but that's not what happened.

 

When did I ever say anyone didn't have to right to feel it was offensive? You can be offended about anything you want. I'm arguing about it being abusive and being used as a reasoning to call the IB/Dorian ship abusive on Bull's part.

 

(Also how is calling Bull a savage not throwing a joke back at him?)

[Bowie Hawkins]

If Dorian felt abused, he'd leave. 

 

Speaking from personal experience, that's not necessarily so.

[Hazegurl]

Abusers don't randomly decide on one person to abuse. It's a history thing. You don't just start abusing people out of nowhere.

 

Vivienne wouldn't let anyone joke around with her like that much less embarrass her. Apologizes to Cass about talking about her leering at the Inquisitor? uh...not my recollection but if you have a link I'd love to see it.

 

He's walking away from a drunken hookup not a loving relationship that with south. There's a vast difference between the two. Unless Dorian's clingy enough he mistakes a drunken one night stand for true love I'm not seeing it. Also Dorian's not that insecure and lacking confidence. This is the man who walks away from everything he ever known and is trying to better his country from within.

Well now we would have know IB's sexual history and we don't know that to argue it. 

 

Once again, I never said abusers single out a person to abuse and then get into a relationship with them. I said abusive people enter relationships all the time. Which is a fact.

 

As for Cass, I'm going by what I read in this thread of someone stating that Bull apologizes for hitting on her.

 

I'm not saying Dorian is in love with Bull, I said it's the closest thing to a relationship he's ever had. I said nothing of love and a person doesn't have to be in love with a person to enter into an unhealthy relationship. 

 

A person can be confident in other areas but not in everything. A person can run a multi-million dollar company and make decisions that dictate the well being of hundreds of people but is alone cause they're too afraid to trust another. Being confident in one thing doesn't equal confidence across the board.

 

And yeah IB has respect for Vivienne. That is my point. He treats people he respects well. Which is why I conclude that he doesn't respect Dorian.

[Vita Brevis]

I don't see the point to argue about that. Because it's just a word. It can be called abusive, because abuse has a very large scale. No one here says it will escalate, but it is what it is. Very ambiguous.

[Sui Causa]

He teases Krem. Cole comments on it. That they use hurtful words but theres no hurt in them. They're just giving each other **** because that's what they do. Cole, the person who can see into peoples hearts and minds, says that those words aren't hurtful, and we know how much Bull protects Krem. I dont' think Dorian is any different. He gets **** because he is now one of the guys because he's with Bull. It's a culture shock for him, because he's high class tevinter mage, not one of Bull's soldiers. I dont' think Dorian has ever had an opportunity to be something like that, so it's probably quite intriguing for him.

 

Bull is different with the Inquisitor because the Inquisitor can't be one of the guys. The fact the Inquisitor likes to be tied up and shoved around in bed is not something that can be openly spread around. Bull isn't stupid, he knows this.

[Ryzaki]

I don't see the point to argue about that. Because it's just a word. It can be called abusive, because abuse has a very large scale. No one here says it will escalate, but it is what iit is.

 

Ugh that really just waters the word down.

 

Well now we would have know IB's sexual history and we don't know that to argue it. 

 

Once again, I never said abusers single out a person to abuse and then get into a relationship with them. I said abusive people enter relationships all the time. Which is a fact.

 

As for Cass, I'm going by what I read in this thread of someone stating that Bull apologizes for hitting on her.

 

I'm not saying Dorian is in love with Bull, I said it's the closest thing to a relationship he's ever had. I said nothing of love and a person doesn't have to be in love with a person to enter into an unhealthy relationship. 

 

A person can be confident in other areas but not in everything. A person can run a multi-million dollar company and make decisions that dictate the well being of hundreds of people but is alone cause they're too afraid to trust another. Being confident in one thing doesn't equal confidence across the board.

 

And yeah IB has respect for Vivienne. That is my point. He treats people he respects well. Which is why I conclude that he doesn't respect Dorian.

 

We already get those bits in banter about the people in Haven.

 

It is. It's also irrelevant because I never said abusers didn't do so. They also do far more than just say some embarrassing things about their partners in public.

 

That's not the banter I was talking about. I was talking about him putting her on the spot about the Inquisitor. He didn't apologize for that. Also I didn't see Dorian asking him to stop talking about them in this vid. Pretty sure Cass asked him not to hit on her.

 

And I don't see it as something he'd be unwilling to walk away from.

 

You're right it doesn't. I don't see him as be willing to let Bull (someone he barely knows) walk all over him however. We're just gonna have to disagree on that.

 

Actually she intimidates him because she reminds him of a Tamassran. That's why he's so subdued towards her. But if you really don't think he respects Dorian. *shrug*

 

Edit: Oh god why am I arguing this? People are just gonna insist on seeing Bull as the big brute abuser and Dorian as the poor used mage. I'm out.

[Vita Brevis]

Ugh that really just waters the word down.

I... don't think so?

As a sexist is not only someone who hits his wife with a rock, but also someone who jokes about women and kitchens on a daily basis. And a racist is not only someone who murders people and such. Because yes, sometimes words are allright and it's just harmless jokes even when it's rude but sometimes they can hurt a lot. If you hit where it hurts. And it's kinda the point.

I.e. yes, Cole says that about Bull and Krem, and he says it about the Inq if you chose the second dialogue option at the end of his quest. But it's not the same. If Cole would've said it about Dorian then we could've talk.  

[veeia]

I think IB respects Dorian, but I also think he can be very paternalistic, like he thinks he knows what's best for someone and if they disagree, he's like "well ok fine sucks you don't know yourself very well." Which is...when you come down to it, not very respectful.

The catch here is that Bull comes from a culture where people's right to define themselves ISNT a thing to be respected like how we would define it. He doesn't get why that would upset people as much as you or I would, because being told by someone else what you are/need is something he's accepted as a normal part of life. He doesn't like the uncertainty that comes with self determination, he thinks it's better and helpful to try and steer people, rather than support them through it.

He's actually, given his attitudes and upbringing, surprisingly respectful of people's autonomy. So I think he does respect Dorian, because he tries to give him what he needs. He thinks Dorian needs to have their relationship casually acknowledged, he thinks that Dorian needs that strong, reassuring, but not coddling approach.

The problem is, does Dorian want it like that? We can either assume he does, or that he's going along with it because of many reasons. Both are valid readings, IMO.

[Sui Causa]

So two out of three examples are confirmed that Iron Bull means nothing malacious about his loudmouthedness. But the third, when he's with Dorian, clearly that's completely different because his loudmouthedness is clearly malicious this time and he's actually an abusive ******* instead of the character he's been demonstrated as time and time again in the rest of the game.

 

Right.

 

I think I'm done too. Clearly Bull turns into a monsterous abusive predator when sweet Tevinter mage ass is around.

[Ryzaki]

I... don't think so?

As a sexist is not only someone who hits his wife with a rock, but also someone who jokes about women and kitchens on a daily basis. And a racist is not only someone who murders people and such. Because yes, sometimes words are allright and it's just harmless jokes even when it's rude but sometimes they can hurt a lot. If you hit where it hurts. And it's kinda the point.

I.e. yes, Cole says that about Bull and Krem, and he says it about the Inq if you chose the second dialogue option at the end of his quest. But it's not the same. If Cole would've said it about Dorian then we could've talk.  

 

Um...no 

 

You're not sexist for hitting your wife with a rock. You're abusive. Physically abusive.

 

You can be sexist and physically abusive yes but no one does not auto make you the other.

 

Just like a racist doesn't mean you want to lynch black people.

 

I mean if people are being abusive by saying embarrassing things I suppose I should be yelling at alot of my friends right now.

 

Edit: Nope I said I was done. I just put that there to clarify. 

 

So two out of three examples are confirmed that Iron Bull means nothing malacious about his loudmouthedness. But the third, when he's with Dorian, clearly that's completely different because his loudmouthedness is clearly malicious this time and he's actually an abusive ******* instead of the character he's been demonstrated as time and time again in the rest of the game.

 

Right.

 

I think I'm done too. Clearly Bull turns into a monsterous abusive predator when sweet Tevinter mage ass is around.

 

[Hellion Rex]

What irks and infuriates me is that we are jumping to "abusive" relationships based upon a handful of banters that make up a very, very short percentage of their dialogue together.

[Chernaya]

I think IB respects Dorian, but I also think he can be very paternalistic, like he thinks he knows what's best for someone and if they disagree, he's like "well ok fine sucks you don't know yourself very well." Which is...when you come down to it, not very respectful.

The catch here is that Bull comes from a culture where people's right to define themselves ISNT a thing to be respected like how we would define it. He doesn't get why that would upset people as much as you or I would, because being told by someone else what you are/need is something he's accepted as a normal part of life. He doesn't like the uncertainty that comes with self determination, he thinks it's better and helpful to try and steer people, rather than support them through it.

He's actually, given his attitudes and upbringing, surprisingly respectful of people's autonomy. So I think he does respect Dorian, because he tries to give him what he needs. He thinks Dorian needs to have their relationship casually acknowledged, he thinks that Dorian needs that strong, reassuring, but not coddling approach.

The problem is, does Dorian want it like that? We can either assume he does, or that he's going along with it because of many reasons. Both are valid readings, IMO.

 

This is perfect. I've tried before to explain how Bull has a completely different attitude and view on how he treats people because of his previous upbringing in a completely different society, but you said it much better than I ever could. It's true he doesn't apologize for how he acts, his way of life, ect. But he also doesn't push anything on people, whether it's the Qun or sex. And I do completely believe that coming from where he did, he doesn't see his attitude as disrespectful like how some others do. That's a big cultural difference thing.