437 réponses à ce sujet

[Vita Brevis]

Also where do we have proof Bull is emotionally abusing Dorian outside his lacking discretion? 

Where do we have proof of anything that involves characters relationship if not in banter? 

 

and hell Dorian doesn't even ask him to knock it off

Doesn't change anything. I only remember him asking to stop Cole, and you know - what a surprise, under similar circumstances, actually. But then again, it was Cole, he went deeper and he's not human. And not his lover. 

Idk, I've seen people like Bull, telling them to stop (at least in public) solves nothing really. If anything, it makes it worse.

[Hellion Rex]

Where do we have proof of anything that involves characters relationship if not in banter?

Well, perhaps you might give us an actual example instead of simply alluding to it?

[Vita Brevis]

Example of what? Their inappropriate banter?

[Ryzaki]

Where do we have proof of anything that involves characters relationship if not in banter? 

 

Doesn't change anything. I only remember him asking to stop Cole, and you know - what a surprise, under similar circumstances, actually. But then again, it was Cole, he went deeper and he's not human. And not his lover. 

Idk, I've seen people like Bull, telling them to stop (at least in public) solves nothing really. If anything, it makes it worst.

 

Except we don't have proof of that in banter either. All we get is Dorian being embarrassed about Bull being vulgar. And people are using that as a means to say Bulls' emotionally abusive and Dorian takes it because he hasn't known love or whatever rot.

 

Cole's horrible. I love Cole but he does constantly ignore consent. Dorian would know Bull isn't Cole.

 

Really? So why did it work for Cassandra? Why did it work for Vivienne? Or are you ignoring what we've actually seen of Bull and deciding to impose character traits from other people onto him?

 

Edit: Ugh nope. I just said I was done.

[Sui Causa]

Unless you have met quinari ben-hassrath in real life, I don't think you have any business inflicting personal experiences on that of Bull's character. He's proven himself in the game setting to not be malicious and to stop when someone tells him to stop. (Cassandra.)

 

The determination to demonize him is definitely a personal infliction, not anything based off of what the game actually presents.

[Vita Brevis]

 And people are using that as a means to say Bulls' emotionally abusive and Dorian takes it because he hasn't known love or whatever rot.

That's how people feel about it. It's not something you can change.

And yes, he tells us he knows nothing about relationship himself, it's not something we made up.

 

Really? So why did it work for Cassandra? Why did it work for Vivienne? Or are you ignoring what we've actually seen of Bull and deciding to impose character traits from other people onto him?

Vivienne can take plenty and can shut up anyone, even the Inq.   She lived it.

I haven't heard what Cass said to Bull to make him shut up, actually, can't tell.

Why can't Dorian do it - if the above explanation is not good enough, well, why bother.

[nightscrawl]

There's a line in the Dorian romance about "I'll let you inquisit me again and this time I'll tell you how do to it right" (total paraphrase there) that make some believe that Dorian is a bottom.  I've also seen some people refute that.

I don't really have an opinion about the whole Dorian/Bull thing, but I did want to comment on this.

Having done the Dorian romance, I looked at them as more or less equals and can totally imagine them taking turns, but that is just with MY Inquisitor. I think that specific line, as well as how you choose to play out that aspect of their relationship is totally up to the player in this particular case. I really don't feel that there is a clear indication either way.

[Wanderlust14]

People are getting very touchy about this. Bull is not the most popular character and some people find his behavior abusive, others do not. Everyone has their own limits and what they find acceptable and not. Twilight and 50 Shades are extremely popular books, but some people find the behavior of the main love interests abusive as well. This is not a statement of the fans of Cullen or Grey, but what other people see in that character. While no one really likes hearing their favorite character is seen in such a negative light, that is how he is viewed and it isn't really worth getting upset or arguing over since I don't see either side changing (and I know I am guilty of this too). 

[Chernaya]

Bull's romance may be divisive, but I still find him to be a pretty popular character in general. I can somewhat agree with a good amount of what people are saying actually, I just draw a heavy line at 'abusive'. But still, I respect and understand that everyone sees this differently. As someone who has liked characters who have brought divisive issues in the past for this series, this debate is just another of many for me. Personally, I just see this issue as being in a limbo where perhaps it wasn't expanded on enough, so the speculation is deep. Knowing how some people feel about it, I really do wish a concerned chat with Dorian was made possible where he could have us assured that everything is okay.

[Rekkampum]

I think his character is open for interpretation. As a Two Spirit who is pan, I actually liked Iron Bull's character and personality. Also, note that he is - if romanced - a very respectful person and acknowledges the limits his partner places. It's highly likely in this case that their somewhat tense relationship is one that is consensual, more of a rivalry than anything as deep as you're suggesting. If it wasn't, as Iron Bull clearly conveys to the PC, he'd have stopped a long time ago. He's one of my favorite characters and the way they handled his relationship with Krem I felt was refreshing. Of course, the choices being limited to making your PC sound like a total ******* without adding other options was a bit grating, but that aside I thought that did a spectacular job. He also isn't really as obsessed with sex as you're making him out to be, especially if one spends time talking with him outside of missions. I definitely didn't get that vibe from him. EDIT: Perhaps his openness about it is what some get that idea from.

I also think it's a bit of a fallacy to think he alone or any one is solely representative of the Qunari, especially when we've had several characters in the franchise who follow the Qun, even a Qunari party member in DA:O. His views are very moderate as well when it comes to the Qun. I don't get one dimensional out of that. Do we judge the characters who are City Elves, Dalish, human, or Dwarven and then assume their views are all representative of one person?

[Andir]

Okay, I must be completely missing something?...

 

I can see how people might not like this relationship, and find it unhealthy. But I cannot see how anything anywhere alludes to abuse. Iron Bull comments and teases Dorian, and Dorian gets flustered, but I can't connect this to talking down to him or abusing Dorian's emotions or Dorian at all. I also see people comparing their relationship to the one formed with the Inquisitor but,...they're two different people. Their relationship wouldn't be the same.  I feel like people are projecting or filling in a lot with their own interpretations here, not that there is any actual evidence of this in-game. ???

 

It would help if someone could post the exact lines and why this makes you think abuse, instead of what you theorize/speculate, because I'm just missing something. (Not trying to come off/convey tone as rude or dismissive, I just can't connect these dots and would really like more insight. Thanks!) 

[Annos Basin]

I'm kind of glad if stability and bliss of Bull/Dorian is left up to your imagination. If it was the perfect relationship without a doubt, that would make all your inquisitors' romances with either of them love triangles with complications likely ahead if both are recruited during same playthrough. Good if they can make it work, that shows they're ready for serious relationship. If they can't, that means you weren't ruining things for them if you romanced either one.

Bad relationships are bad and we all should speak our minds against them in real life, no question about that. Entertainment is however full of lighthearted banter and bickering, which is more related to people's hidden unspoken feelings or sense of humour than belittling. Not to mention this all still takes place in somewhat dark fantasy setting, with even bigger issues than sideplot romances left ambiguous and open-ended. (If there's room for headcanons, everyone can win on some level.)

If there's relationship that makes me see red, let me tell you about Bianca. (Not the crossbow, that one's cool.) Or please don't let me, that'd be awful! Just saying that while it's not necessarily abusive, it seems destructive and frustrating. And I'm sad about not getting dialogue options to say it aloud in game. Though that wouldn't had been my inquisitor's business. That would had been Hawke's business. Too bad Varric managed to keep everything hidden from him/her for so long, he knew everything or something would conclude the minute Hawke's gang found out.

But I might had ended up sounding like Wynne questinoning warden's private life. Or Anders ranting about Fenris: "surely you could do better than that, Hawke."  Friends intervene when they see someone they care about (or anyone) in a bad situation, but you might end up sounding just rude and/or jealous if you're only being ignorant or projecting and thinking about something else that might not apply here. I don't have enough evidence to know if Dorian and Iron Bull are compatible. I'm absolutely sure though that if Dorian ever wants to stop it, Iron Bull won't be clingy. Most abusers I've known or heard of would go either "But you'll never find anyone who'll love you as much as me" or "You'll be so sorry...". I think I can promise you Iron Bull would never be like that even if his big bleeding heart got broken.


About (offtopic) the bisexuals who love sex and are open about it, yeah there has been many of them. It's just that think about how annoying these characters would be (to many gamers if not to you) if they only talked about either men or women. Coming from jrpg fandom, I've seen enough of heterosexual insatiable lovesickos already (regardless if they never actually get any), and if they were insatiable gays, not everyone would be happy about that either. And it won't be fun if all characters were inconspicuous. They should be at least terribly open-minded and companionable if they only went for guys or girls.

[Wanderlust14]

I think his character is open for interpretation. As a Two Spirit who is pan, I actually liked Iron Bull's character and personality. Also, note that he is - if romanced - a very respectful person and acknowledges the limits his partner places. It's highly likely in this case that their somewhat tense relationship is one that is consensual, more of a rivalry than anything as deep as you're suggesting. If it wasn't, as Iron Bull clearly conveys to the PC, he'd have stopped a long time ago. He's one of my favorite characters and the way they handled his relationship with Krem I felt was refreshing. Of course, the choices being limited to making your PC sound like a total ******* without adding other options was a bit grating, but that aside I thought that did a spectacular job. He also isn't really as obsessed with sex as you're making him out to be, especially if one spends time talking with him outside of missions. I definitely didn't get that vibe from him.

I also think it's a bit of a fallacy to think he alone or any one is representative of the Qunari, especially when we've had several characters in the franchise who follow the Qun, even a Qunari party member in DA:O. His views are very moderate as well when it comes to the Qun. I don't get one dimensional out of that. Do we judge the characters who are City Elves, Dalish, human, or Dwarven and then assume their views are all representative of one person?

Oh Bull definitely has his good points, particularly in regard to Krem, but he also has his weak points as well and I really don't see him as the main representative of the Qunari, particularly since he is so different from all the others you have met throughout the games, but he does show a side that has barely been explored with them. 

[Rekkampum]

I rather choose not to see them as weaknesses so much as ideas that run counter to what I'd expect of them. I think that's the mark of good writing because the character has complexity and neither is essentially good or evil. If they all were echo chambers they wouldn't exactly be realistic in context. In this case, there are some people will like, and others people will despise.

[Asakti]

The Dorian/Iron Bull relationship is something I don't like - and purposfully will be keeping them out of a party together if I am not romancing one of them just so the relationship doesn't start.  I don't like it and it edges on unhealthy for me (I don't think abusive, but I don't think - after seeing Dorian's arc - that it is good).  I think abusive is taking it a step too far (imo) after watching the videos.

 

It is interesting to see the Dorian/Bull and Varric/Bianca relationship in-game - both examples of relationships that divide fandom with debate if they are healthy or not.  Rather similar in that they seem weighted for one party (Bull, Bianca) over the other (Dorian, Varric).

[actionhero112]

I really like bull, and this almost ruined his character for me. Thankfully I don't like Dorian's specialization, and I almost always do the templar sidequest because time travel is stupid, so I only heard the banter once. Once was enough. 

 

They can make any character they want. They just can't force me to like them when they have gross habits. Which isn't the bdsm, but the disrespect for his partner that seems to come across. Although that could totally be just me. 

 

It's dumb, because I really like bull's conversations with vivienne and blackwall. But I cringe any time he says something sexual. 

[Rekkampum]

At his most basic, he's similar to every character. Every character (almost) is struggling with philosophical/faith/culture issues. As the Inquisitor/Herald, I think many are wondering if you have any answers. People are a bit lost. The only thing I find sad about the Iron Bull romance is that he requires you to submit to him. lol. He's more lost than anyone, yet he thinks he knows what people need. To me, this is the ultimate expression of weakness for this game. More than even Alistair submitting to our Warden.

 

OTOH, some Inquisitors who are drunk with power and ego might do well to submit.

 

Sorry for derailing a bit.. it's not really about Bull/Dorian specifically.

 

 

So I wasn't the only one who caught that! Seeing how he's struggling with those personal issues - clearly indicating that he himself still know what he wanted - was kinda funny, in a "pot calling the kettle black" sorta way. And yes, I wanted to Dom Bull. That sucked.

 

Dorian is a character that's grown on me a lot, so I definitely will have him around with Bull more often to see just how far the convo goes.

[sandalisthemaker]

At first, I was thrilled to hear that two male companions were hooking up in this game. Once I actually heard all of the banter between Bull and Dorian, I began to feel conflicted about it.  There is an element to their relationship that does strike me as being unhealthy, or at least questionable, to the point where I don't want it to occur in any of my playthroughs.  

 

Do I consider it flat out abuse? No, but there's just something about Dorian's comfort level in the relationship that I find questionable.

 

As of now, in my first and second playthrough, my Inquisitors have romanced Dorian, so I don't have to worry about this. Dorian is very happy with the Inquisitor.  He is treated with respect and unlike with Bull, he never seems flustered or embarrassed when with the Inquisitor. 

[Shark17676]

OP's post is a clear example of actively looking for things to be offended by.

[Punahedan]

Except, surprise, I'm not making **** up. Gaider's post here, and for those that don't want to click, here's the quote: 

 

He is asked in a very ego-stroking fashion: 

 

I have a question that I'm not sure you'd want to answer, but my inner writer really wants to know. Your answers on other matters are always so eloquent, I was hoping you could provide similar input on the subject of Iron Bull and Dorian's relationship (should the Inquisitor romance neither of them). Their banter in that situation strikes me not as a 'cute little romance' but rather an exploration of the characters, and not necessarily meant to be 'healthy'. Is that intentional? I'm curious.

 

 

Gaider answers:

 

Are there people who consider Dorian and Iron Bull’s potential relationship to be “cute”? Huh. That’s not a term I would use.

I’m not going to go into detail on what I think about it — most of their relationship is left undetailed, after all, and the player is only catching the very edge of it…thus I think it’s a matter best left to headcanon — but I’d say that it has a real potential to either be a very passionate affair or the kind of epic mistake that one or both of them regrets later. Maybe both. I’m uncertain when it was dictated that relationships depicted in game had to only be of the safe and positive kind, but in this case I don’t think that Adoribull (heh, I do love that moniker) is really either of those things…and that’s not necessarily bad, in my view.

Poor Dorian. There’s nothing like discovering you actually like Fereldan beer. It’s like having all your friends talk about how awful Coors Light is, and you’re quietly sitting there remembering how you chugged back a full case of it just the other night. So sad.

 

 

So we're not meant to interpret the relationship as positive or healthy. That's so nice to hear about the first intercompanion gay relationship. He might be comparing it to beer, but that's definitely skimming over the fact that there's an edge of embarrassment and shame that Dorian never indicates to the Inquisitor he enjoys. Beer is something you tease people for. Love and intimate relationships? I certainly hope no one teases people about that when they sound unsure. 

 

There is a stark difference between how Bull behaves in a romance with the Inquisitor (which is full of its own arguable issues, but that I can chalk up to misinformation), and how Dorian is in a romance with the Inquisitor, and how they are in a relationship with each other. So, so, so starkly different. If you don't see that, I don't know what to tell you. There's no indication Dorian is into BDSM, so we don't know if he's comfortable or likes feeling that way, but given that he's grown up in an environment where the shame and embarrassment of being gay even without the emotional side of it was quite real and quite outside of his control, I somehow doubt that would be the case. 

 

I'm not sure what the writers hoped to gain by putting this in the way they did, or what Gaider hopes to achieve by pointing out that it may not be a healthy relationship and "that's not necessarily bad." In what way would it be a good thing? In what way is subverting every good thing Bull introduces by making him extremely disrespectful of Dorian a good thing? 

 

So, I'm quite surprised, quite disturbed. From the bioware forums, I expected dismissive responses. From the devs? I was hoping something more productive. Silly me. 

 

Iron Bull: Quite the stink-eye you’ve got going, Dorian.

Dorian: You stand there, flexing your muscles, huffing like some beast of burden with no thought save conquest.

Iron Bull: That’s right. These big muscled hands could tear those robes off while you struggled, helpless in my grip.

Iron Bull: I’d pin you down, and as you gripped my horns; I. Would. Conquer. You.

Dorian: Uh. What?

Iron Bull: Oh. Is that not where we’re going?

Dorian: No. It was very much not.

 

 

Iron Bull: “That staff’s in pretty good shape, Dorian.”

Iron Bull: “You spend a lot of time polishing it?”

Dorian: “Ugh.

 

 

So yeah, I'm not really here to argue with most of you (but MAN do I hope none of your friends are in unhealthy relationships because you would not be the people I would turn to), I just hope the devs see this and really rethink the relationships they introduce in games. 

[Wanderlust14]

Except, surprise, I'm not making **** up. Gaider's post here, and for those that don't want to click, here's the quote: 

 

He is asked in a very ego-stroking fashion: 

 

 

Gaider answers:

 

 

So we're not meant to interpret the relationship as positive or healthy. That's so nice to hear about the first intercompanion gay relationship. He might be comparing it to beer, but that's definitely skimming over the fact that there's an edge of embarrassment and shame that Dorian never indicates to the Inquisitor he enjoys. Beer is something you tease people for. Love and intimate relationships? I certainly hope no one teases people about that when they sound unsure. 

 

There is a stark difference between how Bull behaves in a romance with the Inquisitor (which is full of its own arguable issues, but that I can chalk up to misinformation), and how Dorian is in a romance with the Inquisitor, and how they are in a relationship with each other. So, so, so starkly different. If you don't see that, I don't know what to tell you. There's no indication Dorian is into BDSM, so we don't know if he's comfortable or likes feeling that way, but given that he's grown up in an environment where the shame and embarrassment of being gay even without the emotional side of it was quite real and quite outside of his control, I somehow doubt that would be the case. 

 

I'm not sure what the writers hoped to gain by putting this in the way they did, or what Gaider hopes to achieve by pointing out that it may not be a healthy relationship and "that's not necessarily bad." In what way would it be a good thing? In what way is subverting every good thing Bull introduces by making him extremely disrespectful of Dorian a good thing? 

 

So, I'm quite surprised, quite disturbed. From the bioware forums, I expected dismissive responses. From the devs? I was hoping something more productive. Silly me. 

 

 

 

So yeah, I'm not really here to argue with most of you (but MAN do I hope none of your friends are in unhealthy relationships because you would not be the people I would turn to), I just hope the devs see this and really rethink the relationships they introduce in games. 

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled by that answer either. It was disappointing to me that the first gay companion romance (and a romance that will probably pop up for a lot of people since Bull and Dorian are popular to use) could be seen even by the writer as questionable and not healthy. I don't expect every relationship to be healthy and perfect, but the first major one could have been less controversial (especially since the two companions who had relationships that could have been taken as gay in Origins were definitely not healthy with Leliana and Marjolaine and Zevran and Taliesen), not by taking away the BDS&M, but by making Bull less of a dick about the whole thing, making Dorian seem happy and less embarrass about it, and being given the option of talking to Dorian and expressing concern.  

[Shark17676]

This is entirely your own personal interpretation of the situation that you're trying to pass off as absolute fact.

 

Personally speaking, I think all your ranting is quite reaching and ridiculous with a heavily condescending tone on top of it all.