437 réponses à ce sujet

[Chernaya]

See, those quotes to me are simple teasing. I can't see that even constituting to an unhealthy relationship, much less an abusive one. 

[Ryzaki]

Actually I kind of want to hear the I would conquer you one.

 

Pretty sure my quizzy would've wanted that said to her instead ;-; wasting that on Dorian. Goddamnit.

[Raikas]

I'm not sure what the writers hoped to gain by putting this in the way they did, or what Gaider hopes to achieve by pointing out that it may not be a healthy relationship and "that's not necessarily bad." In what way would it be a good thing? In what way is subverting every good thing Bull introduces by making him extremely disrespectful of Dorian a good thing? 

 

I think it's an interesting thing in story terms, and I imagine the writers don't want us to be bored, so "interesting" is certainly good in that sense.

 

Personally, I don't think the Bull/Dorian relationship comes off as a good relationship (although at the same time I don't think an unhealthy relationship = an abusive one, so I don't think it crosses that particular line), but that doesn't make it a poor story element.  I actually thought that element of discomfort or creepiness that it gives off (at least for some people) was a sign of good writing.  

 

It actually strongly reminded me of a former friend of mine who was a good guy in general, but a sleaze in relationships and whose girlfriends I always wanted to warn away, so on that level I found it perfectly believable (although I did wish the Inquisitor could make some kind of comment).  I tend to think that writing dialogue that reminiscent of real life is successful, so it worked for me at that level.

 

As an aside - I don't think you can separate out the filter of experience. I've been surprised by how many people read Bull/Dorian as a "cute couple", but I've been even more surprised by how many people are aggressively against what Varric and Bianca have - and I found that type of relationship (the long-term, long-distance relationship between people in arranged marriages) to be pretty common and non-objectionable in real life.  That so many people wanted to break them up (or kill off Bianca) is more shocking to me, but not everyone is coming at it from my specific angle.  And that's clearly where the different reads on Dorian/Bull are coming from as well.

[Hellion Rex]

Actually I kind of want to hear the I would conquer you one.

 

Pretty sure my quizzy would've wanted that said to her instead ;-; wasting that on Dorian. Goddamnit.

17:40

 

[Ryzaki]

17:40

Bwahahaha now that banter comes across as much more trolly. XD

[Chernaya]

What I like about Bull/Dorian over Varric/Bianca is that they actually have this chance to stay together and work out the knots, if they so choose to. Also, they are exclusively focused on each other. Evolving feelings are implied but we still can't really say for sure if this relationship is going anywhere, but we do know they both mutually chose to be in it and are choosing to stay in it. Will it work in the long run, I can't say, but to me it's nothing compared to the strain I felt between the latter couple and can be taken at whatever pace they want or need.

[sandalisthemaker]

There isn't enough evidence one way or the other based on the few banters that we have. For me personally, Iron Bull/Dorian is not ideal based on how it plays out. 

 

The way that people feel about both Bull and Dorian as characters can influence perception to a certain degree. Personally, since I have an issue with IB's romance with the Inquisitor, that colors my interpretation of Iron Bull/Dorian. I tend to be a bit more critical of how Dorian's embarrassment and discomfort shows through in their banter.

[vertigomez]

I really don't find their banter any more objectionable than... anything Isabela said to literally everyone in DA2. Talking about Fenris glistening for Danarius or what color his underwear was (which iirc he was pretty exasperated by, only for them to hook up later if unromanced) or broadcasting Merrill's sex life with Hawke ("Ooh, look at that blush! That good, I take it?" "ISABELA!").

If you're romancing Alistair in Origins, Zevran, Wynne, and Leliana will comment publicly on your sex life, embarrassing him (and you can join in, in Leliana's case). Leliana will get annoyed if Alistair pries into her sex life with the Warden, etc. Sera will make some, uh, pretty forward comments about Lavellan/Solas, much to their chagrin. Some characters are simply shameless about that sort of thing... others are more private. I'm 100% for respecting boundaries myself, obviously, but some characters have no brain to mouth filter. In a fictional context, it's not bad or good so much as... existent.

Dorian's got a lot to deal with. He's not used to his sexuality being something he can just chat about, and Bull's an open-book sort of dude, so yeah, there's a serious personality clash there. It's a bit of a rivalmance, both of them butting heads at first before settling into something familiar and easy and mutually fulfilling (see: the end).

I know that at the end of the day people are gonna have different interpretations, but that's mine. I'm pretty okay with their relationship despite not seeing the whole picture (curse of being the PC, and all that). Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to read 275 Dorian/Bull fanfics.

[sandalisthemaker]

I really don't find their banter any more objectionable than... anything Isabela said to literally everyone in DA2. Talking about Fenris glistening for Danarius or what color his underwear was (which iirc he was pretty exasperated by, only for them to hook up later if unromanced) or broadcasting Merrill's sex life with Hawke ("Ooh, look at that blush! That good, I take it?" "ISABELA!").

If you're romancing Alistair in Origins, Zevran, Wynne, and Leliana will comment publicly on your sex life, embarrassing him (and you can join in, in Leliana's case). Leliana will get annoyed if Alistair pries into her sex life with the Warden, etc. Sera will make some, uh, pretty forward comments about Lavellan/Solas, much to their chagrin. Some characters are simply shameless about that sort of thing... others are more private. I'm 100% for respecting boundaries myself, obviously, but some characters have no brain to mouth filter. In a fictional context, it's not bad or good so much as... existent.

Dorian's got a lot to deal with. He's not used to his sexuality being something he can just chat about, and Bull's an open-book sort of dude, so yeah, there's a serious personality clash there. It's a bit of a rivalmance, both of them butting heads at first before settling into something familiar and easy and mutually fulfilling (see: the end).

I know that at the end of the day people are gonna have different interpretations, but that's mine. I'm pretty okay with their relationship despite not seeing the whole picture (curse of being the PC, and all that). Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to read 275 Dorian/Bull fanfics.

 

Yeah, but in all those examples, that is other people commenting on your relationship from the outside.

 

Iron Bull is embarrassing Dorian within their own relationship. IMO it just comes across as Bull being at least unmindful if not disrespectful of Dorian's feelings. 

[Hazegurl]

I'm not sure what the writers hoped to gain by putting this in the way they did, or what Gaider hopes to achieve by pointing out that it may not be a healthy relationship and "that's not necessarily bad." In what way would it be a good thing? In what way is subverting every good thing Bull introduces by making him extremely disrespectful of Dorian a good thing?

Well, if anything it does show that even gays can enter unhealthy relationships for whatever reason. Usually, mainstream media shows gays entering relationships (if they dare to show them) and that's usually the end and everyone is happy. Not many touch on abuse emotional or otherwise that can occur and people still think it's impossible for a man to fall victim. It sucks that it's done for the first gay companion relationship and since most people will not be romancing IB or Dorian then they usually won't see the contrasting relationship which is Dorian x Inquisitor.

 

But yeah, I do agree with Gaider that the relationship doesn't have to be healthy. It's not like it's a rule that he must follow.

[vertigomez]

Yeah, but in all those examples, that is other people commenting on your relationship from the outside.

Iron Bull is embarrassing Dorian within their own relationship. IMO it just comes across as Bull being at least unmindful if not disrespectful of Dorian's feelings.

I see where you're coming from, I do (no sarcasm)... but my first example was Fenris/Isabela, which I think translates better in this case than any PC/NPC relationship.

He goes from being very dismissive of her and tolerating her come-ons to a more friendly and then sexual relationship. Which doesn't mean she was never out of line, but I like to think that people who start off on the wrong foot can end in a good place... that's what I saw with Dorian and Bull. YMMV.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

I really don't find their banter any more objectionable than... anything Isabela said to literally everyone in DA2. Talking about Fenris glistening for Danarius or what color his underwear was (which iirc he was pretty exasperated by, only for them to hook up later if unromanced) or broadcasting Merrill's sex life with Hawke ("Ooh, look at that blush! That good, I take it?" "ISABELA!").

If you're romancing Alistair in Origins, Zevran, Wynne, and Leliana will comment publicly on your sex life, embarrassing him (and you can join in, in Leliana's case). Leliana will get annoyed if Alistair pries into her sex life with the Warden, etc. Sera will make some, uh, pretty forward comments about Lavellan/Solas, much to their chagrin. Some characters are simply shameless about that sort of thing... others are more private. I'm 100% for respecting boundaries myself, obviously, but some characters have no brain to mouth filter. In a fictional context, it's not bad or good so much as... existent.

Dorian's got a lot to deal with. He's not used to his sexuality being something he can just chat about, and Bull's an open-book sort of dude, so yeah, there's a serious personality clash there. It's a bit of a rivalmance, both of them butting heads at first before settling into something familiar and easy and mutually fulfilling (see: the end).

I know that at the end of the day people are gonna have different interpretations, but that's mine. I'm pretty okay with their relationship despite not seeing the whole picture (curse of being the PC, and all that). Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to read 275 Dorian/Bull fanfics.

Apples and oranges.

 

Those are all coming from third parties, not someone disrespecting their partner's boundaries. The exception is Isabela/Fenris, but if I recall correctly, that was just a fling. No one claimed to have an emotional attachment. If they did, then I would criticize Isabela for the same reasons as Bull.

[miscmarilyn]

I did not get that read on it at all. Side note, Dorian references drinking sometimes, why do people think that makes him an alcoholic?

Honestly I enjoyed listening to their flirting. i found their relationship way more interesting than Inquisitor / Cullen (who I romanced my first game). The whole Qunari / Tevinter dynamic makes it intriguing. Yes, Bull is kinky and initiated the flirting. Why do people assume that equals a non-consensual drunken relationship?

[Hellion Rex]

In all honesty, I don't think we are going to get anywhere in this thread, because most seem to be firmly entrenched in their views about this relationship.

[vertigomez]

Apples and oranges.
 
Those are all coming from third parties, not someone disrespecting their partner's boundaries. The exception is Isabela/Fenris, but if I recall correctly, that was just a fling. No one claimed to have an emotional attachment. If they did, then I would criticize Isabela for the same reasons as Bull.

Fair point, though I wouldn't go so far as to say Dorian's boundaries were disrespected (though, clearly there are many who feel rather strongly that they have been). I look at their banter and I see the truncated tale of one loudmouth mercenary and one exasperated mage starting off on the wrong foot and eventually falling in love despite their differences. Other people see toxicity. *shrugs*

[Ryzaki]

In all honesty, I don't think we are going to get anywhere in this thread, because most seem to be firmly entrenched in their views about this relationship.

 

Isn't that the case for most threads on BSN though?

[daveliam]

Isn't that the case for most threads on BSN though?

 

Absolutely not!  It's a confirmed fact that templars are nazis and Cassandra looks like a man!

 

I hope that the mature heads in this thread (which they all are) will not descend into madness based on that statement.....

[sandalisthemaker]

In all honesty, I don't think we are going to get anywhere in this thread, because most seem to be firmly entrenched in their views about this relationship.

 

Business as usual here, Luvy. At least we aren't tearing eachother apart.

[Shark17676]

 Why do people assume that equals a non-consensual drunken relationship?

 

This is directly in line with the "OMG CULLEN WAS HORRIBLY SEXUALLY HARASSED AT HALAMSHARAL!" thread a while back.  Like I said before and I stand by it -- there's trying to correct true injustices, and then there's actively looking for things to be offended by.

[Ryzaki]

Absolutely not!  It's a confirmed fact that templars are nazis and Cassandra looks like a man!

 

I hope that the mature heads in this thread (which they all are) will not descend into madness based on that statement.....

 

Don't forget the gay agenda being forced down people's throats

 

Pfft if only.

[Hazegurl]

Business as usual here, Luvy. At least we aren't tearing eachother apart.

You may have spoken too soon.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Just wondering, is the Iron Bull and Dorian romance possible if I didn't do Dorian's side quest as I got the bug where his quest doesn't show up. I already locked in my romance with Cass and never flirted with either of them so should I be able to get it?

[Lady Artifice]

Thank you for this thread OP. I didn't agree with everything you said, but I appreciate how well you said it. 

 

My feelings on the matter have been complicated. I don't think reading all of these different perspectives has uncomplicated it. At all. 

 

Still, somehow, it's helped me get a grip on why. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Just wondering, is the Iron Bull and Dorian romance possible if I didn't do Dorian's side quest as I got the bug where his quest doesn't show up. I already locked in my romance with Cass and never flirted with either of them so should I be able to get it?

 

Yes, you should be able to hear Bull/Dorian banter.

[daveliam]

Don't forget the gay agenda being forced down people's throats

 

Pfft if only.

 

I know, right?  Why can't I get a thick, veiny gay agenda shoved down my throat.  I've been a good boy.....