83 réponses à ce sujet

[katokires]

Today I was arguing ina DA forum and while trying to explain people why I hate the game I (accidentally) came up with a very good summary: "In a table RPG my actions are decided by how I build my character and a dice, in Inquisition nothing of this matters, just my skill as a player matters"

 

You can stop here, the rest is totally optional.

 

That's it. This is my answer to all those people arguing that Inquisition is more Baldur's Gate or more RPG than previous Dragon Age games. No, it isn't. Of course if you go with the concept of role playing you can make all kinds of statements, I could say that Inquisition is more RPG than DAO but I could also say the people that are REALLY role playing high fantasy are the actors from The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit movies. So let's just skip that.

 

Now concerning the origins of the term RPG and the most common games classified as such the gameplay is much closer to Origins than to Inquisition. If you want to bring story than you can go for all non-RPG titles with great stories and more direct control and thus role playing experience of the character. So yeah, you can say this action game (Inquisition) is RPG. You can say that Bioware returned to it's origins. Or you could look at reality and just not say such things.

 

Of course people who dare say such things are not reffering to mechanics. But I am. Inquisition is as much RPG as a children with a sword is playing D&D. Yeah by the meaning of the words it is role play. By the origins of the terms and mechanics, it is not. The boy is not playing D&D and Inquisition is not RPG. If Inquisition is RPG then all modern games with a storyteling are RPGs, hell, Saints Row is RPG. RPG IS MECHANICS, it was defined by a set of mechanics, rules, that is precisely what RPG is. RPG without mechanics is storytelling and all game genres have storytelling now. Saying a game is RPG because of its story is like saying that writting a LOTR fanfic is playing RPG.

If the mechanics are not about the development of your character, if most (almost all) of your actions are define by your skill with the controller, I'm sorry but this is no RPG. It is RPG when your advancement in levels and development of character OR the way you built your character at the start are VERY important, decisive, to the result of your actions. If Inquisition was a tabletop RPG then all you had to do is make choices, in and outside battle, and these choices would decide everything despite of what your character is.

 

In real RPGs and in real life no matter how good is your decision if you did not develop a key attribute related to your decision it won't work. If you decided to do a test you need intelligence, if you decided to fight you need dexterity, strength and constitution, and so on... In Inquisition nothing depends on my character, it doesn't matter if he have 1 dexterity or 200 dexterity, he will hit, as long as I hit. "Oh but the damage depends on your character" - Aw yeah, right, by the AUTOMATIC growth of the character which gets rid of me roleplaying how this happens, and the equipments which isn't the character itself, it is as much RPG as chosing what someone will wear is being them.

 

I imagine how many players would keep playing D&D if they actually had to swing swords or control their miniatures with an XBOX One controller... Mechnics matter, changing it may work for some people, but not for all. it is disrespect with everybody that loved the way the game played. THANKFULLY I don't have to worry about Wizards of the Coast forcing me to buy a hologram arena to make my characters battle against goblins, ogres, trolls and dragons, this would be the day I would never play D&D again.

People who like live action go for live action as people who like action games go for action games. People who like tabletop RPG go for it like people who like Bioware RPG go for it. I went for a Bioware RPG and expected a Bioware RPG, got an action game. Amazing.

 

As a parting gift: All characters jump the same with no attributes or skill checks... please enlighten me... is this in favor of ACTION or in favor of role playing? Because hell yeah it is a lot of role playing a library nerd, an athletic runner and cutpurse jumping exactly the same. Also cunning doesn't seem to be very important in knowledge as willpower doesn't seem to affect your skills as leader, yeah VERY RPG. Because hell yeah I can have no willpower at all and lead a HUGE organization with no knowledge, previous experience or anything like that, in fact it is ok to have only strength and constitution and still have all kinds of knowledge and charisma.

 

I don't even fathom the deep dark corners of the multiverse you will venture to find excuses to call Inquisition RPG now but I'm sure it is about completely ignoring that RPG are rules, mechanics, and not the concept of role playing. Asking your boyfriend to wear a nurse outfit is as much RPG as Inquisition. It seems like you can call anything a RPG now, but then I would like to suggest Saints Row as candidate for the anything-goes-RPG genre, hell even FIFA could be considered RPG.

[In Exile]

This is going nowhere good. But let me say this: your definition is worthless because building a character and doing well in stat-based combat is pure player skill. Any definition that tries to define a game to the exclusion of player skill is nonsense.

Once you realise that, you can see how difficult any coherent definition of RPG based on dice rolls becomes.

[Elsariel]

You realize that "RPG" encompasses many different sub-genre's right?  There's Action, Tactical, Tabletop, MMO, Simulation, Live Action, Adventure... I mean, RPG's are not just ONE THING.  

[katokires]

This is going nowhere good. But let me say this: your definition is worthless because building a character and doing well in stat-based combat is pure player skill. Any definition that tries to define a game to the exclusion of player skill is nonsense.

Once you realise that, you can see how difficult any coherent definition of RPG based on dice rolls becomes.

I meant specifically and I guess it is written, skill with a controller, even used it in the D&D exemple. Not player skill in general, player skill in performing real action which is impossible in tabletop RPG unless you do live action role playing or have some kind of (electronic?) game to simmulate combat and other situations. Edit: it would be like as if your GM said: If you can hit the apple with paper ball (in real life) then your ranger hits the balor. This is how ridiculous Inquisition sounds to me. It is I doing stuff, not the character.

 

You realize that "RPG" encompasses many different sub-genre's right?  There's Action, Tactical, Tabletop, MMO, Simulation, Live Action, Adventure... I mean, RPG's are not just ONE THING.  

Yeah, right, thus I said ORIGIN of the term. Many times actually.

[DragonAddict]

I've played games like Baldur's Gate series, Elder Scrolls series, Diablo series, Dungeon Siege series, Never Winter Knights series, etc, etc, etc. and I loved them all.

 

When I first bought DAO, I didn't think much of it to be honest. But then I started to actually get into the game and wow, I became addicted fast. I would play until 2am and get up for work at 5:30am. I bought all the DLC's and loved them all. I bought the expansion Awakenings and love that too. I romanced Morrigan and when I played Witch Hunt, I chose to go with her together to raise our child, through the gate.......

 

At that point, I couldn't wait for DA2. When it was announced, I was so excited and I pre ordered the digial deluxe as soon as it become pre order available. I didn't care about the cost factor.

 

Then I started to play DA2, your save game import meant nothing, no continuation of Witch Hunt, no god baby, no morrigan, no warden "your character you built up", and no flemeth. DA2 was short, totally for console controller gamers now, very linear and was such a shock and let down to me, I forced myself to play it through once and that was it. Ther skills trees were simplified, it was hack and slash and dumbed down compared to DAO.

 

I knew DA3 would be coming out but I wouldn't be pre ordering it, due to the DA2 disaster and let down. Sure enough, DA:I comes out.

 

- fantastic graphics, new frostbite 3 engine, realistic, very impressed

- great sound effects and music, very nice

 

It looked pretty good and there even was Flemeth, God baby, and Morrigan in it........I'm listening and interested now. But you can't import your save game from Witch Hunt, your warden isn't used, all your stats, gear, leveling up meant nothing and you play an inquisitor that interacts a little with Morrigan, Flemeth and the God baby to give some closure and answer some questions.

 

Still not convenced to buy DA:I. So then I found out you can go to The Keep and import some choices made with DAO and DA2 and you can change these choices as well and then into DA:I. I'm listening.......

 

The story line, plots and sub quests of DA:I aren't that great and are almost boring. But the great new graphics make up for it, right? You need a controller to properly play the game for the PC, even after already buying it. Its more for PS4 and XBox One gamers than PC gamers but Bioware states DA:I was written mainly for PC gamers........which was not true at all and I watched that interview.

 

DA:I is not a roll playing game, just like DA2 was not a roll playing game either. DAO was a roll playing game.

 

The skill trees are simple and dumbed down compared to DAO.

 

Its more a hack and slash game now, hammer those controller keys.

 

 

Writing an excellent storyline, fantastic plots and sub quests, means more to me as a gamer than:

 

- having the best graphics

- everyone is now bi and gay, sex, sex, sex

- swearing

- hack and slash

- simplified skills trees

- dumbed down game

 

 

Having attributes to chose from, proper skill trees, having NPC's chat with you and in the background, gaining actual experience to level up, that is a roll playing game. Chosing to do whatever you want, in whatever order you want, not linear, that is a roll playing game. When you and your characters can actually die, that is a roll playing game.

 

DA2 and DA:I are not these things.

 

If there is a DA4, I really hope its not another DA:I again.......but I predict, you won't be able to import your inquisator character, and you must start fresh with a new character again and maybe, your previous inquisator will be in DA4 running around and chat a bit......

[Octarin]

You can't like everything. Leave it at "this game isn't my style". Better that way all around. 

[Elsariel]

Yeah, right, thus I said ORIGIN of the term. Many times actually.

 

You did, but I don't exactly know what you mean by that and why it's relevant to the here and now.  

 

I'm not trying to be obtuse.  Honestly.  I just don't understand why saying "This game isn't like how older RPG's were" equals "it's not an RPG".  It is an RPG.  It may not be to your liking, but it is an RPG.  

[Feranel]

So any game with a rules lawyer who min maxes their rolls to +19 isn't an RPG because their skills at research, preparation, and decision making void chance?

 

My Rifts group is gonna be so pissed at me.

[DragonAddict]

Bioware did make excellent games, but today, its more for the console controller crowds, simplified, dumbed down, hack and slash, linear with short main stories and not great written plots and sub quests..........but at least we have the best graphics.....:-)p

 

That's more important today than the quality of the recent past (5+ years ago).

[Andraste_Reborn]

- everyone is now bi and gay, sex, sex, sex

 

I can ignore the rest of this, but somebody has to say it: not everyone is gay or bisexual. In the inner circle of the Inquisition alone, there are six people who are straight to the best of our knowledge, and five who are some flavour of queer. (Not counting Cole for either side, since he doesn't seem to have a sexuality at all. Even calling him asexual feels like pinning on a human label that doesn't fit.) Outside of that, we have Harding, Celene, Briala and a handful of other NPCs. Most of the background relationships in the game are heterosexual.

 

- swearing

 

People who are apparently fine with all the violence and bloodspatter in DAO and other games but object to people saying **** weird me out.

 

Also, I play with keyboard and mouse and have the reflexes of a dead goldfish, and I do more than fine with the combat. The pause button is my friend.

[Farangbaa]

I guess they never made an RPG in Japan.

Not saying this game is like a jRPG btw. But this obsession with allocating statpoints on level up is bordering on the ridiculous.

You get to control your stats by crafting, have a nice day.

[Chelonius]

I agree that DAI is not a 'role playing' game in the tradition of Baldurs Gate.  It's an action game. While some may like it, I'm glad I waited to get it on the discount sale they were running.  I did not pre-order as I also feared they would repeat the disaster of DA2 - which was the first game I uninstalled from my hard drive unfinished since Daikatana. 

 

After playing for some 20 hours I started a list of what I see are its RPG flaws. 

 

- Can't talk to companions unless you're in your base.  Not even in field camps are you allowed to say 'Hi' to any of them.

- Except for quest givers almost no NPCs can be interacted with. 

- NPCs have no schedule.  C'mon!  Ultima VI had a system with NPC's having a daily routine 20 years ago!

- No day/night schedule.  Any area you visit has day or night fixed.

- Inability to walk (on the PC) completely destroys the RPG immersion.

- On 'normal' setting, 90% of combats can be won with my mage by standing still and holding down the fire button.  Serously.

- Ores and plants respawn resources in about a minute. 

- Want to know if something can be touched?  It's labeled 'Loot'.  Everything worth money has the common label 'Loot' everywhere. 

- If you use a horse, your companions vanish, and mysteriously reappear when you dismount.

 

I suspect nearly all of the flaws are because they wrote a game for consoles, not the PC.  Very sad that Bioware had died. 

[Chelonius]

Oh -- forgot to add:  This is Ferelden!  Where are the Mbari? 

[Feranel]

Oh -- forgot to add:  This is Ferelden!  Where are the Mbari? 

 

Solas doesn't like dogs. 

[Farangbaa]

Oh -- forgot to add:  This is Ferelden!  Where are the Mbari?

I killed heaps of them on the Storm Coast.

[Chaos17]

Dear OP, you're not alone to regret the old c-rpgs and yes DA serie is walking away from the past, episode by episode.

That's the reason why big success are made on Kickstarter and projects like Wasteland 2, Divinity Original Sin, Pillar of Eterny, Shadowrun and Tides of Numerama have been founded over 1 million dollars.

 

So, yes. People WANT real C-RPG back!

 

I gave DA serie a last chance with Inquisition and I shouldn't have because I never though that they will implement such half faced controls for PC (that's a slap on pc player face!). Now, only futur mods keep my hope up that I didn't wasted my money on that game and while waiting I will go play a real mmorpg.

[Feranel]

Dear OP, you're not alone to regret the old c-rpgs and yes DA serie is walking away from the past, episode by episode.

That's the reason why big success are made on Kickstarter and projects like Wasteland 2, Divinity Original Sin, Pillar of Eterny, Shadowrun and Tides of Numerama have been founded.

 

People WANT real C-RPG back!

 

I gave DA serie a last chance with Inquisition and I shouldn't have because I never though that they will implement such half faced controls for PC (that's a slap on pc player face!). Now, only futur mods keep my hope up that I didn't wasted my money on that game and while waiting I will go play a real mmorpg.

 

By OP's standards no videogame RPG would count as an RPG.

[katokires]

So any game with a rules lawyer who min maxes their rolls to +19 isn't an RPG because their skills at research, preparation, and decision making void chance?

 

My Rifts group is gonna be so pissed at me.

If this is how you read it, so be it. But, I couldn't care less about your group and what you think and how you call things, as you shouldn't care about me and what I think/do. That's how life works. I just want to hate and spread hate about things that somehow do not please me, thanks.

 

I guess they never made an RPG in Japan.

Not saying this game is like a jRPG btw. But this obsession with allocating statpoints on level up is bordering on the ridiculous.

You get to control your stats by crafting, have a nice day.

Quoting myself: ""Oh but the damage depends on your character" - Aw yeah, right, by the AUTOMATIC growth of the character which gets rid of me roleplaying how this happens, and the equipments which isn't the character itself, it is as much RPG as chosing what someone will wear is being them."

[katokires]

By OP's standards no videogame RPG would count as an RPG.

You are wrong he was right. Sorry.

[Feranel]

You are wrong he was right. Sorry.

 

Name one.

[DragonAddict]

Agreed, very sad that Bioware has died.

 

 

I won't be pre ordering any more Bioware games at this point and will only wait and see.....

 

 

I liked the fact in all the other RPG's and DAO, there was no swearing, no blatent bi and gay sex almost in your face, its about sex sex sex now. That's only to reflect modern times but way back in the day, this was not the case.To me it takes more away from the game instead of adding to it.

 

 

And I agree with all your points.

[Farangbaa]

If this is how you read it, so be it. But, I couldn't care less about your group and what you think and how you call things, as you shouldn't care about me and what I think/do. That's how life works. I just want to hate and spread hate about things that somehow do not please me, thanks.
 
Quoting myself: ""Oh but the damage depends on your character" - Aw yeah, right, by the AUTOMATIC growth of the character which gets rid of me roleplaying how this happens, and the equipments which isn't the character itself, it is as much RPG as chosing what someone will wear is being them."

You can also get statpoints by selecting passive skills instead of trying to stack 20 active spells into a maximum usage of 8 at the same time.

[Farangbaa]

I liked the fact in all the other RPG's and DAO, there was no swearing, no blatent bi and gay sex almost in your face, its about sex sex sex now.

Lol what game have you been playing? In 200 hours of Dragon Age: Inquistion I got like.. 30 seconds of boob time.

[DragonAddict]

Compare DA:I, to....

 

 

- DAO, Elder Scrolls series, Diablo 3 series, Dunegon Siege series, Never Winter Knights series, Baldur's Gate series, etc, etc, etc, etc,

 

 

These games had violnce, true, but I never noticed swearing or blatent bi and gay sex sex sex like we have with DA:I. These games were true RPG's and the sex part was minimal and no swearing either.

 

Today, to cover up DA:I, you have better graphics, more blatent sex, swearing, simplify the game down, hack and slash, etc. That is not what a role playing game it about. That is a modern, linear acton game.

[katokires]

Name one.

All Bioware RPGs except for Inquisition. And I mean RPGs not the shooter Mass Effect or the action game Jade Empire, and such. So, namely, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age Origins.
They did not need to be perfect just needed to use stats+randomness, and they did.

"There are lots of things you pointed that are not in these games" - No problem. The problem is that inquisition has NONE. A RPG is not a game that have ALL I posted but a game that have most of what I posted, the core thing is stats/skills check+dice/randomness

 

You can also get statpoints by selecting passive skills instead of trying to stack 20 active spells into a maximum usage of 8 at the same time.

Gain from passives is ridiculous. My sword have almost 50 strength, my armor another 30 or more, my hat 20 something.
Edit: And actually I use one or two active skills in most of my characters, even in my rift mage it is rare to use 3 or 4.