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[Lulupab]

Which why i said that Initially the others would find it easier to access the throne than Vivienne and the epilogue ( since you like to quote it so much )states they get more freedom than they have ever had not just " slightly" as you claim.

 

Vivienne admired Justinia and what is Vivienne doing thats so different from what Justinia was doing ? no base for this argument other than blind hate

 

Its funny you bring Cassandra considering that she pretty much does the same thing that Vivienne does lol reforming the circles and the templars etc... again bias at its finest........sir , polite enough?

 

Cassadnra invites the mages into circles, if they refuse (which they do) she lets them establish college of enchanters. She doesn't kill mages. She is the person that stops the Templar abuse by reforming the order from the core and not letting anyone join. SO no, Cassandra is nothing like Vivienne. Its pretty obvious that what Justinia wanted given that leliana tells you she will continue her way but will do everything necessary to do it.

[Kinsz]

It says that Vivienne controls the templars, which means they are subservient to her; that doesn't mean abuses will never happen anymore.

 

 

Frankly, Vivienne seems to want what is best for her. Vivienne has no problem enjoying the luxuries of having freedom and power while arguing that mages shouldn't have these, which makes her something of a hypocrite.

Thats my take on it at least , i believe the templars being under her control means no more abuse for the mages within the circles but i guess well have to wait and see where Bioware decide to go with this in the future.

 

Well agree to disagree then, until i see evidence that she was lying she is alright in my book.

[Lulupab]

All of this arguing and debating, just because someone doesn't like Vivienne killing Fiona in one outcome. Hilarious.

 

Really? Not even close. In case you haven't noticed this is a "Vivienne hate thread".

 

LOL, none taken. It just shows how mad you are over this whole subject, and I already finished with you yesterday. May as well have some fun with it at your expense. And unless your name is Fiona, and you live in Thedas, nothing I said was a personal attack. LOL.

 

I didn't target you specifically with this, it was general. I wasn't really offended as well. Its just an annoyance.

[Colonelkillabee]

Vivienne gives mages positions in the circle, so that suggests that Templar abuse stops. Considering that mages have positions they never had before, and actually have power over themselves, even if it is only allowed because she allows it. Cassandra is obviously the choice that lies between the two extremes of Marysueliana and Vivienne. So yes, she is a bit like Vivienne.

[Colonelkillabee]

Really? Not even close. In case you haven't noticed this is a "Vivienne hate thread".



I didn't target you specifically with this, it was general. I wasn't really offended as well. Its just an annoyance.

in case you haven't noticed, you're pretty much doing most of it yourself right now. Currently. Present tense. The divine stuff also originated with you.

[Akkos]

I don't see mages as criminals simply for being mages. Also, it's not stated that the College of Enchanters is created in isolation; it's stated the College is aimed at bringing solutions to age-old problems.

 

 

Considering that the Chantry has dissolved the Circles, I imagine some families would be far more accepting to take their mage relatives to a positive environment where they can safely learn to control their magic than the Chantry controlled Circles.

 

 

You and I have drastically different views on what Vivienne would do as Divine.

 

 

I have more confidence in Leliana myself. A hero of the Fifth Blight, a supporter of reforms for non-humans and mages, someone who will dissolve the prohibitions against non-humans becoming members of the priesthood and who can persuade naysayers into accepting her reforms (assuming her personality wasn't hardened).

 

 

Only now, you are saying more lies than expected. The Chantry dissolved the Circles??  When was that?.

 

1) - When I said criminals, I was refering to how the mages are viewed now by everyone.  People were scared of mages before, now they are all along the streets moving around your compound with an obviously uncontrolled templars...  Even to remember a terriorist like them mages destroyed the only place people visit to maintain their faith to the Maker.  

 

I'll love to associate this to real life though but I'm out of conclusions seeing we are all living in a chaos much more worst than this game.

 

2) - OK, And also I will love to support Leliana as the divine since she was my hero in the fifth blight as was Sten, Wynne, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran.

 

But let's accept the fact that her ways is far more condemned and corrupted OR Sorry let's say changed by what happened during the fifth blight.

 

The Circle is viewed that way because of what we saw in Dragon age II. Yes....

 

 

3) -  Those elves you say are now open to go to the chantry, do you really think the Chantry are very accepting of people from other religion..  Wait I don't know how to explain this without involving real like religions or maybe it's otherwise.

 

But just remember what cause the exalted marches. Humans will not accept other races that easily....  Maybe tommorrow you see a former qunari converted into Andrastian wisdom, and he is now with a human in the chantry cleaning the tiles.. who knows. Where will the chantry get all the money to take care of those new converts?...

[Kinsz]

Cassadnra invites the mages into circles, if they refuse (which they do) she lets them establish college of enchanters. She doesn't kill mages. She is the person that stops the Templar abuse by reforming the order from the core and not letting anyone join. SO no, Cassandra is nothing like Vivienne. Its pretty obvious that what Justinia wanted given that leliana tells you she will continue her way but will do everything necessary to do it.

My point is the both reform the order and restore the circles , fact, if you mean they are not alike personality wise sure but their views on the chantry isnt that much different and have them both in your party and youll see

[Lulupab]

My point is the both reform the order and restore the circles , fact, if you mean they are not alike personality wise sure but their views on the chantry isnt that much different and have them both in your party and youll see

 

"I want to make the past mistakes right but I don't want to avenge them" That's Cassandra's motive regarding this topic and she sees the faults of Chantry and unlike Vivienne she doesn't face three rebellions in succession of each other. Vivienne is avenging, and more importantly she has selfish reasons behind it. 

[Akkos]

There are lot of mages who were not trained in circles and turned out to be better than circle mages, bethany for example was made Enchanter on her first day because her training was several leagues better than circle mages. A good training is not mutually exclusive with not being from circle. And what is so special about circles? mages are teaching mages and in the college this hasn't changed

 

You think just because there were a lot of abomination in Kikrwall aka a hellhole, so everyone will become an abomination which is false. Abominations are rarer than you think.

 

Bethany's father is from a Circle too... Dude...   The mages still need the Circle to control themselves before they are exposed into the world.

 

Bethany felt more safe now in the Circle when she went to Kirkwall. Also a fact that she had no where to go without her father, brother Hawke and she was not comfortable of the well being of been in a city as an apostate with people looking at her as one.

[Lulupab]

Bethany's father is from a Circle too... Dude...   The mages still need the Circle to control themselves before they are exposed into the world.

 

Bethany felt more safe now in the Circle when she went to Kirkwall. Also a fact that she had no where to go without her father, brother Hawke and she was not comfortable of the well being of been in a city as an apostate with people looking at her as one.

 

So how do you know she will not feel just as safe at the college? You are assuming too much, the circle is mages teaching each other. There is nothing special about it. The same will happen at the college.

[Kinsz]

"I want to make the past mistakes right but I don't want to avenge them" That's Cassandra's motive regarding this topic and she sees the faults of Chantry and unlike Vivienne she doesn't face three rebellions in succession of each other. Vivienne is avenging, and more importantly she has selfish reasons behind it. 

I cant tell if you are screwing with me or not lol i mean seriously?  Vivienne has to  deal with the rebellion because mmm hello she is a mage so her appointment was always going to be met with a lot of resistance at first , if Cassandra was put in the same situation she would crush the rebels too, without hesitation , your beloved Leiliana sure did when those chantry folks opposed her , no? nothing to do with vengeance order has to be kept.

[Lulupab]

I cant tell if you are screwing with me or not lol i mean seriously?  Vivienne has to  deal with the rebellion because mmm hello she is a mage so her appointment was always going to be met with a lot of resistance at first , if Cassandra was put in the same situation she would crush the rebels too, without hesitation , your beloved Leiliana sure did when those chantry folks opposed her , no? nothing to do with vengeance order has to be kept.

 

I didn't mean that rebellion (LOL she does face many rebellions, I didn't man the people who opposed her being a mage on sunburst throne, I mean the mages opposing her ways). Mages rebelled inside the circles and she killed them. Cassandra didn't, she allowed them to establish the college nonetheless. Even though she proposed reinstating circles at the beginning.

 

Killing leaders of opposing sects is hardly same as what Vivienne does.

[Akkos]

So how do you know she will not feel just as safe at the college? You are assuming too much, the circle is mages teaching each other. There is nothing special about it. The same will happen at the college.

 

Once again, those mages in the college hails from the circle, and are now unprotected, un-supervised and are not hiding from the people like more apostates....

 

 

Nobody will know what those mages are planning.

 

Edit = This will repeat "In the hushed whispers" all over again..  Dude.

[Kinsz]

Bethany's father is from a Circle too... Dude...   The mages still need the Circle to control themselves before they are exposed into the world.

 

Bethany felt more safe now in the Circle when she went to Kirkwall. Also a fact that she had no where to go without her father, brother Hawke and she was not comfortable of the well being of been in a city as an apostate with people looking at her as one.

People forget that for every bethany there are 5 Jowans ( blood mage from DA O ) , connor and the kid from the emerald grave are what happens when young mages are left unsupervised , sure some would do fine but most wont.

[In Exile]

It's hard to believe this is supposed to be someone who was a 'master' of the Game in Orlais when she comes across as incredibly petulant and childish when she doesn't get her way, and the fact that the writing is so biased in her favor that you can't genuinely disagree with her doesn't help, either.

But she's not. The whole point of her character is that she's a master of absolutely nothing. She clings to relevance by being the lover of an incredibly powerful noble who gave her all of the status she so desperately clung to before the Breach. She gives you a number of speeches - it you're "friends" - about appearances and convincing others you have power when you don't.

You see how the nobles treat her - she's an irrelevant curiosity. She calls herself "the leader of the loyal mages" but those don't exist. No one rallied to her banner. There are no mages around her. Thinking she's capable of anything is just falling into her trap.

There's a conversation in Redcliffe with a mage who didn't leave the Circle that tells you all you need to know about Vivienne.

[Kinsz]

I didn't mean that rebellion (LOL she does face many rebellions, I didn't man the people who opposed her being a mage on sunburst throne, I mean the mages opposing her ways). Mages rebelled inside the circles and she killed them. Cassandra didn't, she allowed them to establish the college nonetheless. Even though she proposed reinstating circles at the beginning.

 

Killing leaders of opposing sects is hardly same as what Vivienne does.

ah i see ,  well she is more ruthless than Cassandra thats for sure.

[LobselVith8]

Only now, you are saying more lies than expected. The Chantry dissolved the Circles??  When was that?.

 

When Leliana becomes the new Divine of the Chantry of Andraste. As the narration notes, "Given the name Divine Victoria, she first declares an end to the Circle of Magi."

 

1) - When I said criminals, I was refering to how the mages are viewed now by everyone.  People were scared of mages before, now they are all along the streets moving around your compound with an obviously uncontrolled templars...  Even to remember a terriorist like them mages destroyed the only place people visit to maintain their faith to the Maker.  

 

I'll love to associate this to real life though but I'm out of conclusions seeing we are all living in a chaos much more worst than this game.

 

To conflate the views some have of mages with everyone would be a mistake. People have different views, as we know just by listening to some of the Chantry members in Haven talk with disdain about how the templars treated the mages. There's also the influence of the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle, the apostate Champion of Kirkwall, and the mage Inquisitor.

 

2) - OK, And also I will love to support Leliana as the divine since she was my hero in the fifth blight as was Sten, Wynne, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran.

 

But let's accept the fact that her ways is far more condemned and corrupted OR Sorry let's say changed by what happened during the fifth blight.

 

The Circle is viewed that way because of what we saw in Dragon age II. Yes....

 

I don't see what's corrupt about welcoming non-humans into the priesthood of the Andrastian Chantry, or giving mages their autonomy. I find these to be positive changes.

 

As for the Chantry controlled Circles, some people have had issues with the institution since Origins, and we have read about codex entries where some mages resisted under Chantry control. Aldenon the Wise and his people even rebelled against the Chantry forces and templars because he condemned the institution as slavery. Both in-game, and among fans, some people simply don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are the correct course of action to take for men, women, and children who are gifted with magic.

 

It's also incorrect to say that people only disagree with the Circles because of the Circle of Kirkwall. The debates about the Circles existed on the forums long before Dragon Age II was even released.

 

3) -  Those elves you say are now open to go to the chantry, do you really think the Chantry are very accepting of people from other religion..  Wait I don't know how to explain this without involving real like religions or maybe it's otherwise.

 

But just remember what cause the exalted marches. Humans will not accept other races that easily....  Maybe tommorrow you see a former qunari converted into Andrastian wisdom, and he is now with a human in the chantry cleaning the tiles.. who knows. Where will the chantry get all the money to take care of those new converts?...

 

I think that having the head of the Andrastian Chantry accept people of other faiths is the first step, as is having an Inquisitor who doesn't follow the Andrastian faith.

[Akkos]

When Leliana becomes the new Divine of the Chantry of Andraste. As the narration notes, "Given the name Divine Victoria, she first declares an end to the Circle of Magi."

 

To conflate the views some have of mages with everyone would be a mistake. People have different views, as we know just by listening to some of the Chantry members in Haven talk with disdain about how the templars treated the mages. There's also the influence of the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle, the apostate Champion of Kirkwall, and the mage Inquisitor.

 

 

Ok, that was misleaded on my part I thought you said the Chantry disolved the Circle before the war. I know that's what "Leliana does as the Divine.

 

Anyway, different views i understand and you are still blind to what has happened and you seem to think about an "happy ending" to all those matters without realising the sacrifice or the consequences of that freedom given.

 

 

I don't see what's corrupt about welcoming non-humans into the priesthood of the Andrastian Chantry, or giving mages their autonomy. I find these to be positive changes.

 

As for the Chantry controlled Circles, some people have had issues with the institution since Origins, and we have read about codex entries where some mages resisted under Chantry control. Aldenon the Wise and his people even rebelled against the Chantry forces and templars because he condemned the institution as slavery. Both in-game, and among fans, some people simply don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are the correct course of action to take for men, women, and children who are gifted with magic.

 

It's also incorrect to say that people only disagree with the Circles because of the Circle of Kirkwall. The debates about the Circles existed on the forums long before Dragon Age II was even released.

 

 

I think that having the head of the Andrastian Chantry accept people of other faiths is the first step, as is having an Inquisitor who doesn't follow the Andrastian faith.

 

Ok what you just said kind of reminds me of what Sister Petrice wanted to achieve in Dragon age II. And she got an arrow to the throat even though she was very dirty as my dead cow's ass. It also gives me an idea of what will happen to the next Divine whoever they are if they are more accepting of more races in the Chantry. More war my guess. And DRAGON AGE 4 - Tevinter and the Qun... Which is nice.

 

I was not refering to only the Circle of Kirkwall because I know the Circle in Rivain and other place was also purged because of a particular reason why the Circles ever existed.

 

Different views my dear, and thanks for responding each sentence or phrases in my post.

 

But I stick to my opinions, like Vivienne, Wynne..... We still need the circle, and there is no need to open the Chantry to all races which will cause problems with Tevinter and the Qunari.

 

Also Tevinter mages can now access the new College of Enchanter. That's very nice, especially those who want to bring the Old Tevinter back, now they are free to. Mages are now equal to do anything they like. Awesome. People won't be scared anymore.

 

 

I only have Leliana, as the divine in my most corrupted Inquisitor's playthrough though.

[Lulupab]

if you talk with leliana after the last quests she says elves and Dwarves. So I doubt Qunari are in the chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Ok, that was misleaded on my part I thought you said the Chantry disolved the Circle before the war. I know that's what "Leliana does as the Divine.

 

That's fine, misunderstandings happen.

 

Anyway, different views i understand and you are still blind to what has happened and you seem to think about an "happy ending" to all those matters without realising the sacrifice or the consequences of that freedom given.

 

I understand the losses that lead to that point - the people who fought and gave their lives so that future generations could benefit from their sacrifice. I simply don't share your views about Vivienne, Leliana, the Chantry controlled Circles, or the mages in general.

 

Ok what you just said kind of reminds me of what Sister Petrice wanted to achieve in Dragon age II. And she got an arrow to the throat even though she was very dirty as my dead cow's ass. It also gives me an idea of what will happen to the next Divine whoever they are if they are more accepting of more races in the Chantry. More war my guess. And DRAGON AGE 4 - Tevinter and the Qun... Which is nice.

 

Sister Petrice wanted a religious war between the Andrastian faithful and the Qunari because she felt threatened by the Qun; that's not remotely the same as Leliana accepting non-humans into the priesthood.

 

But I stick to my opinions, like Vivienne, Wynne..... We still need the circle, and there is no need to open the Chantry to all races which will cause problems with Tevinter and the Qunari.

 

Tevinter has their own Chantry and Divine, and I doubt the Qunari are going to start a war because some Tal-Vashoth join the faithful of the Chantry.

 

I only have Leliana, as the divine in my most corrupted Inquisitor's playthrough though.

 

While I have Leliana become Divine with my canon Lavellan, because I find her reforms the most progressive and beneficial. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If i didn't read thread name i would mistake it with divine thread.

[Akkos]

if you talk with leliana after the last quests she says elves and Dwarves. So I doubt Qunari are in the chantry.

 

Well then, The Dalish Elves and the Stone Dwarf are equal like and just as strong-headed as the Qunari.

 

You can even demostrate that as an Elf since you are are Dalish . But not as a Dwarf since youa re surface dwarf and you can now marry in the surface under the Chantry's law or without it I guess.

 

Let's see, Brother Burkel... It's the only confirmed one I can tell of.

[Akkos]

That's fine, misunderstandings happen.

 

While I have Leliana become Divine with my canon Lavellan, because I find her reforms the most progressive and beneficial. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

 

Irrational point taken. Happy ending as you wish darling.

[Lulupab]

Well then, The Dalish Elves and the Stone Dwarf are equal like and just as strong-headed as the Qunari.

 

You can even demostrate that as an Elf since you are are Dalish . But not as a Dwarf since youa re surface dwarf and you can now marry in the surface under the Chantry's law or without it I guess.

 

Let's see, Brother Burkel... It's the only confirmed one I can tell of.

 

I see no harm in elves joining humans both due to Leliana being divine or the political aspect (either reconciling Celene and Briala or Briala becoming "shadow empress"). The first argument is elves are useful, period. Emerald knights put a very hard fights for Chevaliers to handle, an extalted march was necessary because Chevaliers lost the initial fights against them. Loghain used a bunch of city elves to throw Chevaliers out of Denerim. (Loghain's night elves) And so on... So many potential wasted behind alienage walls.

 

So for the good of human kingdoms alone, elves joining the society is actually good for humans. Dwarves never had a problem with humans, in fact they have bro relationship with humans so Dwarves will cause the least problem here.

 

Irrational point taken. Happy ending as you wish darling.

 

Oh my dear, Hardened Leliana is not happy ending. its a bloody ending which leads to a happy ending for people who matter. No one cares for blood of zealots and extremists flowing.

[Akkos]

if you talk with leliana after the last quests she says elves and Dwarves. So I doubt Qunari are in the chantry.

 

Also reminds me. Leliana telling her priests - "Spread the chant in across the four corners of the world, go to the elves and dwarves and tell them they are now free to be in the Chantry, My breathren let us pray for our real end is coming true".

 

Then you see clerics packing bags to go to Orzammar/Kal Sharok¿?. or in front of every Dalish Camps. "Repent your sins for all thus you have commited".

 

Or maybe you are refering to City Elves and Surface Dwarves who already worship the Chantry (partly).