Too bad one of her last acts was selling her people into slavery.
Beginning to think maybe voting for someone solely on "I hate mean templars" wasn't such a good idea.
Game characters don't have the hindsight we do, specially when they are manipulated by time magic. And that's now why she was elected.
Game characters don't have the hindsight we do, specially when they are manipulated by time magic. And that's now why she was elected.
Considering the mary sue's biggest concenr was telling the chantry to go shove it and that all mages should be free "yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah muh freedums" I can't really see her being elected by anothe other reason then "I hate mean templars" in a time when it was politically beneficial to do so.
Also there's no hindsight about it. She signed a deal with tevinter that made all of her followers second class citizens to the imperium, whether they wanted to or not.
Can't blame her for hindsight, but I can certainly blame her for lacking any foresight at all.
Vivienne may be an arrogant snob, but at least she wouldn't sell out her own people as cannon fodder to a foreign country just for "protection".
Edit: *ahem* perhaps I got a bit carried away. Another time darling.
Considering the mary sue's biggest concenr was telling the chantry to go shove it and that all mages should be free "yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah muh freedums" I can't really see her being elected by anothe other reason then "I hate mean templars" in a time when it was politically beneficial to do so.
Also there's no hindsight about it. She signed a deal with tevinter that made all of her followers second class citizens to the imperium, whether they wanted to or not.
Can't blame her for hindsight, but I can certainly blame her for lacking any foresight at all.
Vivienne may be an arrogant snob, but at least she wouldn't sell out her own people as cannon fodder to a foreign country just for "protection".
That could be one of the reasons she was elected considering all the endings makes the lives of mages better, more or less. What's ironic is the fact that if Vivienne becomes the divine she does exactly what Fiona wanted to get vote for initially. She never wanted to disband circles, she wanted mages to have more freedoms inside the circles and with less meddling from templars. So if the seekers were not corrupt to the core and the college were mot disbanded, these changes coukd happen without bloodshed.
The hindsight we have is the fact that there is no Templar invasion and we know it. There was already a Templar attack which caused deaths, even the people of redcliff died. Everyone in the city thinks a horde of Templars is approaching the city, even the city guards are getting prepared for the attack. There are dozens of witnesses saying the Templars are coming etc... If the Templars were really attacking and there is a lot evidence present that they are, she either had to make a last stand and die or accept the only alliance offered. Alexius outplayed her.
But of course as long as Vivienne has her summer houses and castles, none of that matters. Its easy to pretend but she actually kills more mages if you make her divine. She kills all the mages who refuse to go back into the circles and don't surrender.
Considering the mary sue's biggest concenr was telling the chantry to go shove it and that all mages should be free "yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah muh freedums" I can't really see her being elected by anothe other reason then "I hate mean templars" in a time when it was politically beneficial to do so.
Also there's no hindsight about it. She signed a deal with tevinter that made all of her followers second class citizens to the imperium, whether they wanted to or not.
Can't blame her for hindsight, but I can certainly blame her for lacking any foresight at all.
Vivienne may be an arrogant snob, but at least she wouldn't sell out her own people as cannon fodder to a foreign country just for "protection".
Edit: *ahem* perhaps I got a bit carried away. Another time darling.
Well said, agreed. I think people are just mad that the character they grew to like from the books turned out to suck so hard. Yea she had some horrible things happen to her in the past, but that doesn't give her a pass to be stupid. If anything, her being a ****** slave in the past should have given her some more ****** common sense when dealing with Tevinter. Oopsy daisy, darling. You done fucked up.
Well said, agreed. I think people are just mad that the character they grew to like from the books turned out to suck so hard. Yea she had some horrible things happen to her in the past, but that doesn't give her a pass to be stupid. If anything, her being a ****** slave in the past should have given her some more ****** common sense when dealing with Tevinter. Oopsy daisy, darling. You done fucked up.
Hardly, now everyone who call her a "mary sue" will have to shut up. She made a mistake, one that she was tricked to to do but she could do better. Someone with her experiences should know better. You can correct that mistake and help her make the best possible ending for the mages. "The Inquisition's mages - the former rebels led by Grand Enchanter Fiona - are left with a choice." With Cassandra and Leliana she leads the mages into the best possible living conditions a mage can have in south Thedas.
So don't describe her as if she is "done". That's only one of the ways it can end.
Oh, I can definitely see it working. Just not in my frame of mind for now. Maybe never. But I know he has his niche.
Oh that's fair.
I can usually easily justify taking/leaving pretty much everyone.
The only exception to this was Jack. I couldn't make a Shepard (I know he exists but I couldn't make him) that would take her on his ship with her antagonism towards Cerberus. Just no.
snip
She's made several mistakes that lead her down that path, mistakes people seem fond of excusing for her, which is crap. I'm not helping someone prone to stupidity. If I could judge her, I'd execute her myself.
Luckily, Vivienne does herself if Divine.
So she will redecorate Skyhold if she hates me?
Nice now I'm going to pi$$ her of so she does it! Skyhold does need redecorating and fast!
She's made several mistakes that lead her down that path, mistakes people seem fond of excusing for her, which is crap. I'm not helping someone prone to stupidity. If I could judge her, I'd execute her myself.
Luckily, Vivienne does herself if Divine.
There is no possible way to create an epilogue in which Vivienne creates stability. It is implied that people will not stand for a mage on sunburst throne and her reign will not last.
There is no mention of what happens to Fiona if you make Vivienne divine (and side with mages prior to that)
There is no possible way to create an epilogue in which Vivienne creates stability. It is implied that people will not stand for a mage on sunburst throne and her reign will not last.
There is no mention of what happens to Fiona if you make Vivienne divine (and side with mages prior to that)
I didn't say anything about stability, I just mentioned she roflestomps Fiona in my ending. It mentions the mages that were in the inquisition. It didn't mention her specifically, but until they do later, she's dead as dirt for me. Especially on my templar playthrough.
It also doesn't imply anything of the sort. It says she's met with resistance, which she stomps out quickly, and that her reign could end shortly or last long, and it could go either way depending on if the chantry chooses to stand by her. Do I think it'll last? Hell no, none of them will if you ask me. But the ending does not say what you wish it did.
This is relevant
I didn't say anything about stability, I just mentioned she roflestomps Fiona in my ending. It mentions the mages that were in the inquisition. It didn't mention her specifically, but until they do later, she's dead as dirt for me. Especially on my templar playthrough.
It also doesn't imply anything of the sort. It says she's met with resistance, which she stomps out quickly, and that her reign could end shortly or last long, and it could go either way depending on if the chantry chooses to stand by her. Do I think it'll last? Hell no, none of them will if you ask me. But the ending does not say what you wish it did.
She stomps the mage resistance, not the people. Also there are two versions of her. If she disapproves she will fail as a divine and you will get these on epilogue:
"In the end she is victorious, but not without much bitterness and loss of life."
"Even so, this new Divine's reign is troubled, and signs of fracturing within the Chantry grow daily. Many believe its days are numbered."
if she approves you get:
"Some say it is only her warm relationship with the Inquisition that ensures her victory."
"For now, the Chantry remains united. Though difficult for many to accept, a mage sits on the Sunburst Throne and will remain there."
Where as Leliana is completely successful in either case. She either charms everyone into her way or threaten/blackmail/kill them. Unity is mainted if you make Leiliana divine regardless of anything. According to what happens at epilogue, Leliana is the only one who removes all resistances and restores long lasting unity.
She stomps the mage resistance, not the people.
Oh my lord, semantics much? LOL, it's exactly like I said about Fiona's fans in my earlier post. Sad.
As for the rest, like I said, in MY ending, it says it can go either way. I'm aware the endings are different, which is why I said in my ending
And why did you bring up marysueliana? What about her? You don't seriously think her honeypie ending is going to last do you, because Bioware would have no game if it did. All the endings will have to more or less lead to the same result.
Oh my lord, semantics much? LOL, it's exactly like I said about Fiona's fans in my earlier post. Sad.
As for the rest, like I said, in MY ending, it says it can go either way. I'm aware the endings are different, which is why I said in my ending
And why did you bring up marysueliana? What about her? You don't seriously think her honeypie ending is going to last do you, because Bioware would have no game if it did. All the endings will have to more or less lead to the same result.
Its not semantics, people will not stand for a mage divine for long. Another magical incident will trip things over "abomination on the sunburst throne". Hardened Leliana is the only one who stomps everyone who opposes her, helps everyone in need and allows all races to join the chantry. The Dragon age as in the year might as well be over. The next DA game could happen 100 years later, even if it leads to same result with Leliana at least you help all sort of people have better lives, at least for a while. Elves, mages, simply everyone.
Its the act that we let a selfish B|tch sit on sunburst throne while someone who really wants to help can sit there instead. Perhaps some perspective is needed here my dear.
I was referring to the "she stomps the resistance, not the people" part as semantics, which it is, and comical. As for Leliana, I can't take her seriously. Her ending is so bullshit and goes against everything we know about the game that I can't possibly take her or anyone else seriously when they talk about her as Divine. She is mary sue to the max, and even gets resurrected from the dead. Which is why I refuse to ever make her divine. It's unrealistic as hell, and it will not last, no matter when the next game takes place.
I don't care if vivienne is selfish. She puts mages in charge in the circle, while keeping the templars and strengthening the circle in general. Her beliefs align with mine, while leliana's does not. And little miss "I have visions I'm so special" I guarantee just loves all the attention of being Divine herself. Just like she did in the chantry in Origins, as suggested before.
**** leliana. Terrible character that gets handed everything. I much prefer Fiona getting stomped under Vivienne's finely polished heel. LOLOL.
Oh my lord, semantics much? LOL, it's exactly like I said about Fiona's fans in my earlier post. Sad.
As for the rest, like I said, in MY ending, it says it can go either way. I'm aware the endings are different, which is why I said in my ending
And why did you bring up marysueliana? What about her? You don't seriously think her honeypie ending is going to last do you, because Bioware would have no game if it did. All the endings will have to more or less lead to the same result.
Well supposedly we're leaving Southern Thedas in the next game...
Well supposedly we're leaving Southern Thedas in the next game...
I'll believe it when I see it. Even we do, I'm not picking that childish fairytale BS ending just because the writers love kissing that lisping airhead's ass.
I was referring to the "she stomps the resistance, not the people" part as semantics, which it is, and comical. As for Leliana, I can't take her seriously. Her ending is so bullshit and goes against everything we know about the game that I can't possibly take her or anyone else seriously when they talk about her as Divine. She is mary sue to the max, and even gets resurrected from the dead. Which is why I refuse to ever make her divine. It's unrealistic as hell, and it will not last, no matter when the next game takes place.
I don't care if vivienne is selfish. She puts mages in charge in the circle, while keeping the templars and strengthening the circle in general. Her beliefs align with mine, while leliana's does not. And little miss "I have visions I'm so special" I guarantee just loves all the attention of being Divine herself. Just like she did in the chantry in Origins, as suggested before.
**** leliana. Terrible character that gets handed everything. I much prefer Fiona getting stomped under Vivienne's finely polished heel. LOLOL.
Hardened Leliana is ten times more ruthless against her enemies than Vivienne. You are specifically talking about softened Leliana. Hardened Leliana knows every secret, every scandal and have daggers everywhere so if threats and blackmails fail they will find the throat. Calling her mary sue is wrong on so many levels.
There is nothing ridiculous about it. The Tudors and more specifically queen Elizabeth brought reforms to England that no one dreamed of and at the time thought impossible. They absolutely crushed all resistances which were mostly religious and after hundreds of years England knew peace and for the first time since Christianity art and literature flourished etc... aka good things for people because extremists and fanatics were dealt with. That's exactly what Hardened Leliana is. She is vigilant and she takes care of extremists and zealots, that's what Thedas needs.
Hardened Leliana is ten times more ruthless against her enemies than Vivienne. You are specifically talking about softened Leliana. Hardened Leliana knows every secret, every scandal and have daggers everywhere so if threats and blackmails fail they will find the throat. Calling her mary sue is wrong on so many levels.
There is nothing ridiculous about it.
I lolled at this.
Its not semantics, people will not stand for a mage divine for long.
I lolled at this.
Doesn't change the fact that she has agents everywhere. You may continue loling now since you have nothing else to add to this discussion.
Doesn't change the fact that she has agents everywhere. You may continue loling now since you have nothing else to add to this discussion.
I finished the discussion posts ago, which is why you switched to fangirling over Marysueliana.
But those people will have no problem letting mages loose?
In fact, the revolts against Vivienne as divine lose steam once they see that she reinstates the Circles and realize their folly. Unless she does some radical 180, there is no reason to suspect her position is in much danger.
But the epilogue specifically mentions they find it very difficult to accept a mage on sunburst throne. The people can form an angry mob pretty quickly. She will get blamed on next magical incident that hits south.
I finished the discussion posts ago, which is why you switched to fangirling over Marysueliana.
the irony is Vivienne is not so different. The only mage in south Thedas closest to nobility, also the richest mage, a first enchanter, respected by whole Orlais, you can never answer her properly, she has a plot armor as well as dialogue armor, she is always the winning side in a conversation. I think I can go on, no?
get down from your high horse.
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