308 réponses à ce sujet

[Dahae]

She's made me begin to love the world, darling. 

[Colonelkillabee]

the irony is Vivienne is not so different. The only mage in south Thedas closest to nobility, also the richest mage, a first enchanter, respected by whole Orlais, you can never answer her properly, she has a plot armor as well as dialogue armor, she is always the winning side in a conversation. I think I can go on, no?

 

get down from your high horse. 

And yet neither one of her endings are nearly as ridiculous, and she was never resurrected from the dead...

 

Nah, I like looking down on you from my high perch just fine, my dear. Thanks

[Shadow Fox]

Doesn't change the fact that she has agents everywhere. You may continue loling now since you have nothing else to add to this discussion.

That won't stop people from trying to depose/kill her tyrannical little ass if anything it will inspire them to try harder.

 

Leliana's*either version* rule is the one that will encounter the most resistance.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

But the epilogue specifically mentions they find it very difficult to accept a mage on sunburst throne. The people can form an angry mob pretty quickly. She will get blamed on next magical incident that hits south.

At first they did, yes. Then she reinstates the Circles and they're like, "Oh...."

I did not consider her being blamed for any magical disaster that may take place, but, this is the Iron Lady ( ) we're talking about. Not likely that any mob will be worse than the one she faced (and crushed) in her rise to the Sunburst Throne after proving the first wave of opponents wrong, maybe even winning supporters among them. And she's kept the Templars around expressly to prevent such events, so if such big disasters even do happen, they'll more likely be the first ones blamed.

Who will get blamed if those disasters take place and Leliana or Cass are divine? The mages in general, most likely. Not exactly a better scenario, especially not if they're going to be policing themselves and have to choose sides.

[Lulupab]

And yet neither one of her endings are nearly as ridiculous, and she was never resurrected from the dead...
 
Nah, I like looking down on you from my high perch just fine, thanks

 
And I look down on you who knows absolutely nothing about history and how subterfuge and blackmail played as much important rule as force in determining critical events. 
 
Anyone who calls hardened leliana ending "ridiculous" needs a history lesson  . Heck go watch game of thrones.
 

That won't stop people from trying to depose/kill her tyrannical little ass if anything it will inspire them to try harder.

[Lulupab]

At first they did, yes. Then she reinstates the Circles and they're like, "Oh...."

I did not consider her being blamed for any magical disaster that may take place, but, this is the Iron Lady ( ) we're talking about. Not likely that any mob will be worse than the one she faced (and crushed) in her rise to the Sunburst Throne after proving the first wave of opponents wrong, maybe even winning supporters among them. And she's kept the Templars around expressly to prevent such events, so if such big disasters even do happen, they'll more likely be the first ones blamed.

Who will get blamed if those disasters take place and Leliana or Cass are divine? The mages in general, most likely. Not exactly a better scenario, especially not if they're going to be policing themselves and have to choose sides.

Like Justinia, Leliana can divert the attention to actual guilty party rather than all magges. As a mage herself, Vivienne cannot do that. I'm a pro-mage myself but a mage cannot sit on sunburst throne for long, its not even about Vivienne herself.

[MrDbow]

[Lilacs]

Thank goodness I stopped by this thread! Playing the game in French has deprived me of the voice of lovely Indira Varma. She is one of my favorite actresses.  I haven't researched the voice actor for Vivienne. The French actress that does her voice is simply superb! 

 

On my next playthrough in Dragon Age: Inquisition, I will definitely do  an English version one.  Vivienne's writer did an excellent job fleshing out her story. One gets the feeling of being in the sphere of English Aristocracy (or Aristocracy with political intrigues!). I simply enjoy Vivienne!  I enjoy how she is written and now I am going to enjoy her much more with the voice of Indira Varma.

 

Vivienne is a darling and a dear! (No pun intended there!)

[Colonelkillabee]

 
And I look down on you who knows absolutely nothing about history and how subterfuge and blackmail played as much important rule as force in determining criticalevents. 
 
Anyone who calls hardened leliana ending "ridiculous" needs a history lesson  . Heck go watch game of thrones.
 

I think you need a history lesson if you think someone can know every secret of everyone they deal with. Not even the American Gov can pull that off, but somehow Leliana can. No one can be this slow.

 

Game of Thrones is no history book I've ever heard of, LOL. This is sad.

[Colonelkillabee]

Lol this **** is too easy.

[Lulupab]

I think you need a history lesson if you think someone can know every secret of everyone they deal with. Not even the American Gov can pull that off, but somehow Leliana can.
 
Game of Thrones is no history book I've ever heard of, LOL. This is sad.

That is beneath you. She knows enough secrets and has enough agents to maintain unity. Yet you succumb to playing with words. Surely you know that I meant she knows most secrets, not every single one.

I mentioned game of thrones because I thought you might be one of those "I hate real history" people. Of course it has nothing to with it, but that doesn't mean there aren't events there that matches how things work in reality.

For instance, unless we are more clever and resourceful than Corypheus, one single assassination destroys a whole country full of elite trained units such as Chevaliers making all that military training useless, one dagger at the right time ends everything. If the inquisitor gets kicked out of the ball, this is what happens. A whole country defeated because someone knew the secrets and when to kill someone.

Leliana is an expert of the game, she can tell you everything about a person by just looking at their shoes. Death and Deception has been a majority of her life. If anyone can pull that endings in Thedas, its her. So in a sense majolaine was right, but she is using this for good.

[Colonelkillabee]

snip

"I hate real history" people? Never heard of that, lol. I hope never to encounter that.

 

Anyway, whether it's all the secrets, most of the secrets, the idea that she can know so many that it maintains this idealistic peace in a place that was riddled with conflict and with such a complex problem as the mage issue, a problem that no one in thedas had an answer for, to me, is just insulting. They even went out of their way to let the player know that not even the Dalish of all people had a truly idealistic solution. The Dalish...

 

It may be something acceptable for you and others, but for me, I can't stand this ending. It seems like an easy way out to me and just stomps over all the intrigue this issue built up. That's just my opinion on it.

[Lulupab]

"I hate real history" people? Never heard of that, lol. I hope never to encounter that.
 
Anyway, whether it's all the secrets, most of the secrets, the idea that she can know so many that it maintains this idealistic peace in a place that was riddled with conflict and with such a complex problem as the mage issue, a problem that no one in thedas had an answer for, to me, is just insulting. They even went out of their way to let the player know that not even the Dalish of all people had a truly idealistic solution. The Dalish...
 
It may be something acceptable for you and others, but for me, I can't stand this ending. It seems like an easy way out to me and just stomps over all the intrigue this issue built up. That's just my opinion on it.

Clearly you are misinformed then. This "idealistic" peace happens after a a river blood has flown. There were conflicts, there were people who opposed her but she dealt with all of them.

 

Exact quote: "Her response is as swift as it is deadly, unity is maintained, but blood runs through the halls of the Grand Cathedral." This sentence alone makes it believable. Remember how utterly powerless the chantry was once the important people were dead? She just have to do that, the others will fall in line. People really distrusted inquisition at first but with chantry in shambles there was no alternative. Leliana is not a companion so the game assumes she has full support of Inquisition and if you add her mastery of politics and agents all over Thedas, she has more than enough power to do what is said on epilogue.

 

However I completely agree that her softened approach is ridiculous, ""She meets with their leaders, urging unity. Miraculously her words take root, and - for now - the Chantry remains strong." That's what happens...

 

The Dalish don't get recognition because the game tries to unite the elves in a way but telling us how misinformed the Dalish are and its a step to unite the elves. There is an ending in which Elves can become nobles. alienages are gone and elves can join the chantry as well.

[Colonelkillabee]

 

However I completely agree that her softened approach is ridiculous, ""She meets with their leaders, urging unity. Miraculously her words take root, and - for now - the Chantry remains strong." That's what happens...

 

The Dalish don't get recognition because the game tries to unite the elves in a way but telling us how misinformed the Dalish are and its a step to unite the elves. There is an ending in which Elves can become nobles. alienages are gone and elves can join the chantry as well.

I'm specifically talking about her non hardened ending, so I'm not misinformed, and it seems we agree so we can move on from here. Hardened Leliana is the only Leliana I'd even consider making Divine at all. Still wouldn't though.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Like Justinia, Leliana can divert the attention to actual guilty party rather than all magges.

Didn't do a very good job of it, seeing as public opinion of mages was very negative since the Kirkwall Incident, per Vivienne. I do not think she is lying when she says that. I do not suspect she is incorrect, either. At least, the Inquisitor's inner circle seems to reflect that general sentiment, given the approval of one's choice with the mages at the end of In Hushed Whispers.

As a mage herself, Vivienne cannot do that. I'm a pro-mage myself but a mage cannot sit on sunburst throne for long, its not even about Vivienne herself.

I am not following your logic here. The mob, by definition, extracts justice on perceived guilty parties. Had Vivienne let the mages go loose, perhaps this fear would have made sense, but she instead champions the Templars and Circles, which not only serve to regulate magic but are traditionally very anti-corruption as well. Sure, some folks mgiht make an association fallacy and blame her just for being a mage, but they would probably be no more significant in number than those who believe Barak Hussein Obama is a closest Muslim secretly supporting the terrorists -- past history is all one would need to see to dispel such far-fetched notions.

[Lulupab]

If you truly believe a mage can sit on suburst throne for long then its fallacy to think Leliana cannot do her reforms.

 

And please. Don't compare a dark age religious figure to a modern age democratic figure.

 

The south fought several ages with Tevinter due to their divine being a mage. The fact that he was male also added to fire but the main reason was him being mage. So you think the same people will stand for a mage on sunburst throne? Not for long.

[Enclave777]

In my game, she calls me "Meine Liebe", but that's because I play it in German

[Kinsz]

snip

It doesnt matter who sits at throne it wont be smooth sailing for anyone but you have to be pretty delusional if you think that Vivienne would tolerate people with pitchforks any more than a hardened Leiliana would, Madame De Fer has proven she is willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done, be it crushing a rebellion or anything else.

That spy network of Leiliana that you boast about ...guess what ? as divine Vivienne will be able to call upon it , same goes for the Inquisition's resources ( whether you like it or not , Viv as divine has the Inquisition's backing )

 

PS - Leiliana  dissolving the circles as divine is a joke, on that would  backfire quicker than any other decision made by the other divines.

[Lulupab]

It doesnt matter who sits at throne it wont be smooth sailing for anyone but you have to be pretty delusional if you think that Vivienne would tolerate people with pitchforks any more than a hardened Leiliana would, Madame De Fer has proven she is willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done, be it crushing a rebellion or anything else.

That spy network of Leiliana that you boast about ...guess what ? as divine Vivienne will be able to call upon it , same goes for the Inquisition's resources ( whether you like it or not , Viv as divine has the Inquisition's backing )

 

PS - Leiliana  dissolving the circles as divine is a joke, on that would  backfire quicker than any other decision made by the other divines.

 

If Vivienne has bad relation with Inquisitor, she doesn't get the Inquisition support and its explicitly mentioned that her days are limited as a divine. As I said the soon as Tevinter announced a mage divine, the south declared war that lasted for ages. So you expect the same people to tolerate a mage divine? There is only so much tyranny can get her. Blame Bioware if you must but the only epilogue where its mentioned there is unity without any strings attached is Leliana's. There are unresolved issues and problems in Cassandra's and Vivienne's case.

 

Leliana will continue Justinia's way and Justinia was the best thing that happened to Thedas in centuries. She intended to bring the same reforms but she was hesitant to use force. Cassandra also wants to go this road, but only half of it. She doesn't follow Justinia as good as Leliana but she still honors it. Vivienne is just a backwater pretender that will prevent any sort of advancements and will only add fuel to thousand year old feuds. 

 

The circles are gone replaced by college of Enchanters. So there is in fact an organization dedicated to mages. They are not roaming, they are not nobility etc.. In fact Leliana is doing good things for the common people (aka people with pitchforks) so the people who oppose her are nobles and chantry sisters whom their power is threatened or are simply zealots and extremists.

[Kinsz]

The epilogue states that Leiliana managed to have the chantry remain strong .....for now, so again all of this is wishful thinking on your part and that is pretty much the gist of it for ALL the divines but it wont be smooth sailing for any of them to believe otherwise is showing one's delusion ( unless this was the end of the dragon age series ).

Its very cute that you believe that Leiliana will manage to have people be okay working alongside Qunaris , dwarves and especially elves in the chantry indefinitely lol or that mages being completely cut loose would have no repercussion but i wont bother trying to convince you otherwise as it will end up being one of those endless debates.

 

I have yet to the epilogue of a Divine Vivienne that doesnt get along with the Inquisition so if you could provide a link to that i would appreciate it. Everything else you say about Vivienne's reign however i just born out of your hatred for the character nothing more , you cant back them up with anything resembling fact............same could be said about my claims however i do not pretend otherwise.

[Kinsz]

This is the Vivienne epilogue i know about , i eagerly await the one you spoke of in your post.

 

[Lulupab]

The one about Leliana is her softened version which is ""She meets with their leaders, urging unity. Miraculously her words take root, and - for now - the Chantry remains strong." So yes but lets take a look at her hardened version
 
Hardened leliana: "Her response is as swift as it is deadly, unity is maintained, but blood runs through the halls of the Grand Cathedral." There is no for now, temporarily etc... Unity is maintained, period. 
 
So with that established lets move to Vivienne.

 

If Vivienne has high approval with inquisitor the video you posted happens. However if Vivienne had low approval this happen:

 

"Even so, this new Divine's reign is troubled, and signs of fracturing within the Chantry grow daily. Many believe its days are numbered."

 

I couldn't find a video but perhaps you can, Vivienne has to have low approval. Even if she has high approval there are months of chaos, a lot of deaths and the blatant announcement in the epilogue that she is only able to remain in the seat because of Inquisition's support where is there is no such a mention in Leliana's epilogue.

 

I find it rather amusing that you have the gall to debate this without knowing all the outcomes.

 

All epilogue outcomes are on the wiki:

 

http://dragonage.wik...e_(Inquisition)

[caradoc2000]

Be glad it is just "darling" she has ruined, and not "Wendy", "Moira" and "Angela" as well.

[Kinsz]

The one about Leliana is her softened version which is ""She meets with their leaders, urging unity. Miraculously her words take root, and - for now - the Chantry remains strong." So yes but lets take a look at her hardened version
 
Hardened leliana: "Her response is as swift as it is deadly, unity is maintained, but blood runs through the halls of the Grand Cathedral." There is no for now, temporarily etc... Unity is maintained, period. 
 
So with that established lets move to Vivienne.

 

If Vivienne has high approval with inquisitor the video you posted happens. However if Vivienne had low approval this happen:

 

"Even so, this new Divine's reign is troubled, and signs of fracturing within the Chantry grow daily. Many believe its days are numbered."

 

I couldn't find a video but perhaps you can, Vivienne has to have low approval. Even if she has high approval there are months of chaos, a lot of deaths and the blatant announcement in the epilogue that she is only able to remain in the seat because of Inquisition's support where is there is no such a mention in Leliana's epilogue.

 

I find it rather amusing that you have the gall to debate this without knowing all the outcomes.

 

All epilogue outcomes are on the wiki:

 

http://dragonage.wik...e_(Inquisition)

So hardened Leiliana killing a bunch of people in order to get her point across is your definition of " smooth sailing " ? lol you have said absolutely nothing to disprove my point in that regard, it is very naive to think that it would be easy for any of them or that ( if it had been ) it would continue on such path.

 

Each one of those divines will face struggles they would have to overcome, even your precious hardened Leiliana , she might have quiet down a few chantry folks for the time being by others will rise ( some outside of the chantry ), people in southern Thedas are not just going to be ok with these changes overnight especially given that during that period there will be a lot of villages burnt down by abominations running wild

 

It doesnt matter if the Inquisition's backing was mentioned as a necessity for Leiliana in the epilogue , the devs most likely assumed that we were all intelligent enough to figure that out on our own .

 

"Even so, this new Divine's reign is troubled, and signs of fracturing within the Chantry grow daily. Many believe its days are numbered." who exactly are those " many "?  you still arent proving anything friend   besides chances are that 99% of Viv that are elected as divine are friends with the Inquisition so this is a non issue.

[Kinsz]

You know your argument would actually hold some water if you said that initially it would be much easier for Leiliana to slot in as Divine than it would for Vivienne given that the former is  not A) a mage , B ) was the left hand of the Divine but thats only their initial introduction to the throne in the long run Vivienne's decision to retain the circles and bring templars back will be much more welcomed among the people of Southern Thedas than Leiliana's delusional " lets free mages and all be one big happy family"  approach  .