308 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

So hardened Leiliana killing a bunch of people in order to get her point across is your definition of " smooth sailing " ? lol you have said absolutely nothing to disprove my point in that regard, it is very naive to think that it would be easy for any of them or that ( if it had been ) it would continue on such path.

 

Each one of those divines will face struggles they would have to overcome, even your precious hardened Leiliana , she might have quiet down a few chantry folks for the time being by others will rise ( some outside of the chantry ), people in southern Thedas are not just going to be ok with these changes overnight especially given that during that period there will be a lot of villages burnt down by abominations running wild

 

It doesnt matter if the Inquisition's backing was mentioned as a necessity for Leiliana in the epilogue , the devs most likely assumed that we were all intelligent enough to figure that out on our own .

 

"Even so, this new Divine's reign is troubled, and signs of fracturing within the Chantry grow daily. Many believe its days are numbered." who exactly are those " many "?  you still arent proving anything friend   besides chances are that 99% of Viv that are elected as divine are friends with the Inquisition so this is a non issue.

 

Pure speculation my dear. If you want to turn this into "intelligent people figuring on their own" then its quite obvious you have nothing more to add to this. Leliana's epilogue is utterly and clearly better than Vivienne's. Deal. With. It.

 

Actually the epilogue says Leliana is supporting the Inquisition so its actually the other way around. She doesn't need the Inquisition to do her job unlike some irrelevant person who can only hold her position because of Inquisition.

 

I don't need to prove anything because its already there. Its the advancement and compromise Thedas needs, mages will rebel again and again in the circles and we will have Templars addicted to Lyrium again who are just as dangerous as the mages as its made clear in the game. South Thedas will be stuck on same old feuds again and the cycle will go on and on.

 

Again mages are not "free". The College of enchanters is a new order (key word) that allows the mages to govern themselves, there is not a single mention of absolute freedom that you are talking about. The Templars and Seekers failed spectacularly in controlling the mages and we never gave mages a chance to control themselves. Its explicitly mentioned in the epilogue that the college seems to be working and the people are slowly beginning to accept it. So people in southern Thedas are absolutely OK with, its made obvious in the epilogue.

 

Abominations running wild are your useless paranoia my friend   There is not SINGLE mage among Fiona's mages who turns to an abomination if you ally with the mages. How I liked slapping this to Vivienne's face.

[Kinsz]

Pure speculation my dear. If you want to turn this into "intelligent people figuring on their own" then its quite obvious you have nothing more to add to this. Leliana's epilogue is utterly and clearly better than Vivienne's. Deal. With. It.

 

Actually the epilogue says Leliana is supporting the Inquisition so its actually the other way around. She doesn't need the Inquisition to do her job unlike some irrelevant person who can only hold her position because of Inquisition.

 

I don't need to prove anything because its already there. Its the advancement and compromise Thedas needs, mages will rebel again and again in the circles and we will have Templars addicted to Lyrium again who are just as dangerous as the mages as its made clear in the game. South Thedas will be stuck on same old feuds again and the cycle will go on and on.

 

Again mages are not "free". The College of enchanters is a new order (key word) that allows the mages to govern themselves, there is not a single mention of absolute freedom that you are talking about. The Templars and Seekers failed spectacularly in controlling the mages and we never gave mages a chance to control themselves. Its explicitly mentioned in the epilogue that the college seems to be working and the people are slowly beginning to accept it. So people in southern Thedas are absolutely OK with, its made obvious in the epilogue.

 

Abominations running wild are your useless paranoia my friend   There is not SINGLE mage among Fiona's mages who turns to an abomination if you ally with the mages. How I liked slapping this to Vivienne's face.

I wondered when it was going to come to the " im right you're wrong i cant hear youuuuuu la la la la " LOL!! actually took longer than i expected given how pathetic your attempt at rationalizing your nonsense was in your last two posts ....so here is a round of applause just for ya

 

Anyways this is going nowhere so i shall take my leave now

[Colonelkillabee]

Since when does belonging to an order mean you're not free?

 

Since when were opinions fact?

 

This is just sad. I said that pages ago. Fiona fans are desperate for her, I swear. That's the only reason all of this Leliana discussion was even brought up. To ignore ONE possible ending where Fiona gets roflestomped by her betters.

[Lulupab]

I wondered when it was going to come to the " im right you're wrong i cant hear youuuuuu la la la la " LOL!! actually took longer than i expected given how pathetic your attempt at rationalizing your nonsense was in your last two posts ....so here is a round of applause just for ya

 

Anyways this is going nowhere so i shall take my leave now

 

Glad to know you had nothing to counter my last post. You better leave for your own sake. 

 

 

Since when does belonging to an order mean you're not free?

 

Since when were opinions fact?

 

This is just sad. I said that pages ago. Fiona fans are desperate for her, I swear. That's the only reason all of this Leliana discussion was even brought up. To ignore ONE possible ending where Fiona gets roflestomped by her betters.

 

Not just that, also celebrate the fact that Vivienne's greatest fear which is irrelevance becomes reality in other endings. Also the fact that Thedas is a better shape with Leliana on sunburst throne, no matter how hard you try (and fail) to excuse it. The epilogue is quite clear that after all said and done people accepted all those reforms, including the mages amd the college. And you bet your arse Vivienne has no place there.

[LobselVith8]

You know your argument would actually hold some water if you said that initially it would be much easier for Leiliana to slot in as Divine than it would for Vivienne given that the former is  not A) a mage , B ) was the left hand of the Divine but thats only their initial introduction to the throne in the long run Vivienne's decision to retain the circles and bring templars back will be much more welcomed among the people of Southern Thedas than Leiliana's delusional " lets free mages and all be one big happy family"  approach  .

 

Given that the Herald of Andraste being an elf and a mage is already changing how some people view elves and mages, I don't think a return to the status quo is the best outcome, and I don't see why Leliana's decision to give the mages their autonomy would fall apart when it's specifically noted that mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance during the time the College of Enchanters is formed.

[Lulupab]

Given that the Herald of Andraste being an elf and a mage is already changing how some people view elves and mages, I don't think a return to the status quo is the best outcome, and I don't see why Leliana's decision to give the mages their autonomy would fall apart when it's specifically noted that mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance during the time the College of Enchanters is formed.

 

Indeed. Not to mention you'll probably have to side with mages to have that outcome since its the Inquisition mages who start the college of Enchanters. Which means mages more than proved themselves in defeating Corypheus so the people will be more accepting. Calling it "return to status que" while true doesn't show its real nature. Its going back to the same old feuds and problems and destroying everything Justinia tried to achieve.

[Kinsz]

Given that the Herald of Andraste being an elf and a mage is already changing how some people view elves and mages, I don't think a return to the status quo is the best outcome, and I don't see why Leliana's decision to give the mages their autonomy would fall apart when it's specifically noted that mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance during the time the College of Enchanters is formed.

Vivienne doesnt reform the circles to be just like they were though thats the thing, mages get a lot more freedom within her new circles and the templars cannot abuse them that to me is the best outcome, then again the " best outcome " is subjective.

[Colonelkillabee]

The butthurt over vivienne killing Fiona's ****** ass is palpable, lol.

That's how you know she's the ****. Aaa all the haters, lololol.

[Kinsz]

Lulupab o i could easily counter your previous post but you had already been defeated many posts prior. you keep contradicting yourself at every turn , lets look at this post of yours below shall we ?

 

Indeed. Not to mention you'll probably have to side with mages to have that outcome since its the Inquisition mages who start the college of Enchanters. Which means mages more than proved themselves in defeating Corypheus so the people will be more accepting.

 

Now i find this mighty funny given that you claimed that Vivienne would never be accepted because ...........she is a mage.

 

as i said my not replying to you has nothing to do with my lack of counter to your post , i just believe that at this point your goal isnt to have a good debate its more about "winning " the argument if anything , i used to find that fun .....when i was 12 then i grew up now it bores me to no end

[Lulupab]

Can't have a proper argument these days without people using personal insults or shades. How many censored words you have used in this thread Colonelkillabee? Do you think they make you look cooler? No offense but the last time I met someone using that much cussing they were a high school dropout, just saying.

 

Lulupab o i could easily counter your previous post but you had already been defeated many posts prior. you keep contradicting yourself at every turn , lets look at this post of yours below shall we ?

 

 

Now i find this mighty funny given that you claimed that Vivienne would never be accepted because ...........she is a mage.

 

as i said my not replying to you has nothing to do with my lack of counter to your post , i just believe that at this point your goal isnt to have a good debate its more about "winning " the argument if anything , i used to find that fun .....when i was 12 then i grew up now it bores me to no end

 

The position of divine which caused a 600 year war with Tevinter simply because they had a mage divine is different than people accepting mages outside of circles. If you think position of Divine and mages living outside the circles is the same, I have bridge to sell you, a quite large one in fact. 

 

What do you say to people who contradict themselves and accuse others of the same thing? 

[Akkos]

Given that the Herald of Andraste being an elf and a mage is already changing how some people view elves and mages, I don't think a return to the status quo is the best outcome, and I don't see why Leliana's decision to give the mages their autonomy would fall apart when it's specifically noted that mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance during the time the College of Enchanters is formed.

 

You are missing "For the moment, my Dear". Do you really think people will just accept criminals unprecedentedly all over Thedas that easily?.. The College of Enchanters's still created to isolated the mages and that's far more worse than what was achieved till now.

 

Do you really think families all over thedas can now take their children safely to a college where mages(maker knows what's they are doing or planning now) are "not" controlled or supervised to learn and study magic?

 

With a mage in the sunburst throne, someone like my dear Viv, now Divine Victoria who can convince the people a way to be saved from their gifted children. They will know their children will grow up as a mage, serve man in their own responsibility, become part of the Chantry, gain a place in the society as one of the maker's holy creature. People will see you as a mage, count on your protection as a mage!!!

 

I assure you, my dear. Vivienne, as Divine Victoria' will represent the embodiement of Andraste herself. I'm so sure she'll assume that position with grace and charm because everything she does as the Divine will influence people to regenerate with the Maker's signs and inspire virtuous impulses. A mage child should grow up waxed and strong in spirit, filled with wisdom and the grace of the Maker upon him.

 

Now my dear, you are all nothing but talk if you won't accept Divine Vivienne's method as the real solution to what's happening now in southern Thedas.

 

 

The dwarves and elves will not accept people to be forced into the Andrastian's religion as you might think Leliana will just open the chantry to all of them that easily without forcing it on them everyday. Remember Brother Burkel, that dwarf that opened a chantry in Orzammar who got killed because he was trying to convert dwarfs in front of the Stone.. I regreted that decision when Leliana approved and Sten disapproved stating something that'd love to cheer. "The chantry wisdom's is a like a breath, you need it but don't expect to give it to others that easily".

[Kinsz]

Can't have a proper argument these days without people using personal insults or shades. How many censored words you have used in this thread Colonelkillabee? Do you think they make you look cooler? No offense but the last time I met someone using that much cussing they were a high school dropout, just saying.

 

 

The position of divine which caused a 600 year war with Tevinter simply because they had a mage divine is different than people accepting mages outside of circles. If you think position of Divine and mages living outside the circles is the same, I have bridge to sell you, a quite large one in fact. 

 

What do you say to people who contradict themselves and accuse others of the same thing? 

I actually believe that you DO believe that you have a bridge to sell , you appear to be that delusional .

 

Anyways your contradicting post was a result of you agreeing with Lobsel when he said that people accepted an Elven mage  as the Herald of Andraste therefore they wouldnt be against mages being free....... while you can argue that mages being free doesnt have as much impact as having one of them as Divine surely you cannot claim that being the herald and the leader of the inquisition ,THE power in the south right now bar none, doesnt have the same impact ( i mean maybe you would as you make no sense most of the time ) that, my friend is where your contradiction lies.

[Lulupab]

I actually believe that you DO believe that you have a bridge to sell , you appear to be that delusional .

 

Anyways your contradicting post was a result of you agreeing with Lobsel when he said that people accepted an Elven mage  as the Herald of Andraste therefore they wouldnt be against mages being free....... while you can argue that mages being free doesnt have as much impact as having one of them as Divine surely you cannot claim that being the herald and the leader of the inquisition ,THE power in the south right now bar none, doesnt have the same impact ( i mean maybe you would as you make no sense most of the time ) that, my friend is where your contradiction lies.

 

You're ignoring the fact that its made obvious the only reason Vivienne keeps her throne is because of Inquisition. All candidates needs the support of Inquisition to become the Divine, but only Vivienne needs it to stay in power. With this in mind, and the fact that there was months of chaos and death following Vivienne becoming Divine, her so called "peace" hangs by a very thin thread. Just because she give mages slightly more freedom will not solve anything hence the three rebellion one after another. Neither Leliana nor Cassandra meet that much resistance and they bring quite big reforms to the table.

 

Vivienne is a disgrace to what Justinia tried to achieve and its simply unacceptable in a larger scale. Thedas needs changes and reforms, Cassandra and Leliana do a very good job at it but Vivienne goes back to the old ways. She delaying the inevitable change the south needs. 

 

On a side note, I read your posts carefully and answer line by line but you use childish arguments and accusations. So really, you can't talk about how wrong I am when you lack basic etiquette of discussing something politely.

[LobselVith8]

Vivienne doesnt reform the circles to be just like they were though thats the thing, mages get a lot more freedom within her new circles and the templars cannot abuse them that to me is the best outcome, then again the " best outcome " is subjective.

 

The Epilogue doesn't state that the templars can't abuse them; the entire problem some of us have with the Chantry controlled Circles is that abuses happened because the mages were at the mercy of those in power, and these transgressions transpired even when it was technically illegal. You're welcome to disagree with me about the Chantry controlled Circles, but in my humble opinion, I think it's the best outcome to support an alternative to the Chantry controlled Circles, which is the College of the Enchanters.

[Akkos]

The Epilogue doesn't state that the templars can't abuse them; the entire problem some of us have with the Chantry controlled Circles is that abuses happened because the mages were at the mercy of those in power, and these transgressions transpired even when it was technically illegal. You're welcome to disagree with me about the Chantry controlled Circles, but in my humble opinion, I think it's the best outcome to support an alternative to the Chantry controlled Circles, which is the College of the Enchanters.

 

What help will the College of Enchanters do?  Keep mages safe?.  How is that even possible, when you know their gathering there won't help younger mages grow up un-supervised and with more risk among demons.

[Lulupab]

What help will the College of Enchanters do?  Keep mages safe?.  How is that even possible, when you know their gathering there won't help younger mages grow up un-supervised and with more risk among demons.

 

We don't know what exactly the college does, the epilogue simply says its working. Not everywhere is like Kirkwall where everyone is either evil, bloodmage, abomination or crazy, or maybe all of them. Not a single mage among Fiona's mage become an abomination, there is a dialogue on this. The mages control themselves quite nice (given there is a breach and demons everywhere) and help you defeat corypheus, then the same mages establish the order of college of enchanters. The mages likely govern and supervise themselves. Given that how hard the Templars and Seekers failed in doing so, I think the chance should be given to the mages to look after themselves. No one knows what a mage faces and how things work for them like another mage, in this case another experienced mage.

[LobselVith8]

You are missing "For the moment, my Dear". Do you really think people will just accept criminals unprecedentedly all over Thedas that easily?.. The College of Enchanters's still created to isolated the mages and that's far more worse than what was achieved till now.

 

I don't see mages as criminals simply for being mages. Also, it's not stated that the College of Enchanters is created in isolation; it's stated the College is aimed at bringing solutions to age-old problems.

 

Do you really think families all over thedas can now take their children safely to a college where mages(maker knows what's they are doing or planning now) are "not" controlled or supervised to learn and study magic?

 

Considering that the Chantry has dissolved the Circles, I imagine some families would be far more accepting to take their mage relatives to a positive environment where they can safely learn to control their magic than the Chantry controlled Circles.

 

With a mage in the sunburst throne, someone like my dear Viv, now Divine Victoria who can convince the people a way to be saved from their gifted children. They will know their children will grow up as a mage, serve man in their own responsibility, become part of the Chantry, gain a place in the society as one of the maker's holy creature. People will see you as a mage, count on your protection as a mage!!!

 

You and I have drastically different views on what Vivienne would do as Divine.

 

I assure you, my dear. Vivienne, as Divine Victoria' will represent the embodiement of Andraste herself. I'm so sure she'll assume that position with grace and charm because everything she does as the Divine will influence people to regenerate with the Maker's signs and inspire virtuous impulses. A mage child should grow up waxed and strong in spirit, filled with wisdom and the grace of the Maker upon him.

 

I have more confidence in Leliana myself. A hero of the Fifth Blight, a supporter of reforms for non-humans and mages, someone who will dissolve the prohibitions against non-humans becoming members of the priesthood and who can persuade naysayers into accepting her reforms (assuming her personality wasn't hardened).

 

Now my dear, you are all nothing but talk if you won't accept Divine Vivienne's method as the real solution to what's happening now in southern Thedas.

 

I don't accept it. What can I say, I'm a heathen.

 

The dwarves and elves will not accept people to be forced into the Andrastian's religion as you might think Leliana will just open the chantry to all of them that easily without forcing it on them everyday. Remember Brother Burkel, that dwarf that opened a chantry in Orzammar who got killed because he was trying to convert dwarfs in front of the Stone.. I regreted that decision when Leliana approved and Sten disapproved stating something that'd love to cheer. "The chantry wisdom's is a like a breath, you need it but don't expect to give it to others that easily".

 

I don't think Leliana will force anyone to convert, since she accepts the Dalish following their own gods in Origins, and has no problem with Lavellan having faith in the Creators in Haven. She's opening the door for people who already believe in the Maker to be accepted into the priesthood because she believes everyone should be treated equally.

[Kinsz]

The Epilogue doesn't state that the templars can't abuse them; the entire problem some of us have with the Chantry controlled Circles is that abuses happened because the mages were at the mercy of those in power, and these transgressions transpired even when it was technically illegal. You're welcome to disagree with me about the Chantry controlled Circles, but in my humble opinion, I think it's the best outcome to support an alternative to the Chantry controlled Circles, which is the College of the Enchanters.

Well it states that Vivienne has the templars leashed which to me basically means that their abuses wont fly anymore, perhaps people are getting to see a side of Vivienne i have yet to encounter. From what i gathered in our interactions she seems to legit want whats best for mages ( she also wants power yes but still ) , you might argue that whats best for mages is setting them free but to her thats not the case and i agree , she believes that mages should attend the circle , learn to control their magic in order to make sure they arent a danger to themselves and others and those who prove they are trustworthy are allowed to leave outside of it ......so i have absolutely no reason to believe that she would allow them to suffer as they have in the past provided they are within the circle walls.

[Akkos]

We don't know what exactly the college does, the epilogue simply says its working. Not everywhere is like Kirkwall where everyone is either evil, bloodmage, abomination or crazy, or maybe all of them. Not a single mage among Fiona's mage become an abomination, there is a dialogue on this. The mages control themselves quite nice and help you defeat corypheus, then the same mages establish the order of college of enchanters. The mages likely govern and supervise themselves. Given that how hard the Templars and Seekers failed in doing so, I think the chance should be given to the mages to look after themselves. No one knows what a mage faces and how things work for them like another mage, in this case another experienced mage.

 

Yes, but most of those mages that helped you close the breach and defeat corypheus where are they all from?

Not all mages suffered like in Kirkwall you are contradicting yourself again. They can obviously govern themselves now in the College of Enchanters but after being trained in a Circle and able to control and nurture their magic gifted powers.

 

 

You guys are like thinking about the conclusions without passing through the sacrifice of being free. Happily lived forever? Come on.....

[LobselVith8]

What help will the College of Enchanters do?  Keep mages safe?.  How is that even possible, when you know their gathering there won't help younger mages grow up un-supervised and with more risk among demons.

 

I don't see why the College of Enchanters can't teach mages to properly use their powers responsibility without being subjugated under the rule of the Chantry and the templars. I also don't see why they are more at risk of being possessed, particularly as we heard about and saw a plethora of people getting possessed because they resisted the Chantry controlled Circles.

[Lulupab]

Yes, but most of those mages that helped you close the breach and defeat corypheus where are they all from?

Not all mages suffered like in Kirkwall you are contradicting yourself again. They can obviously govern themselves now in the College of Enchanters but after being trained in a Circle and able to control and nurture their magic gifted powers.

 

 

You guys are like thinking about the conclusions without passing through the sacrifice of being free. Happily lived forever? Come on.....

 

There are lot of mages who were not trained in circles and turned out to be better than circle mages, bethany for example was made Enchanter on her first day because her training was several leagues better than circle mages. A good training is not mutually exclusive with not being from circle. And what is so special about circles? mages are teaching mages and in the college this hasn't changed

 

You think just because there were a lot of abomination in Kikrwall aka a hellhole, so everyone will become an abomination which is false. Abominations are rarer than you think.

[Colonelkillabee]

Can't have a proper argument these days without people using personal insults or shades. How many censored words you have used in this thread Colonelkillabee? Do you think they make you look cooler? No offense but the last time I met someone using that much cussing they were a high school dropout

LOL, none taken. It just shows how mad you are over this whole subject, and I already finished with you yesterday. May as well have some fun with it at your expense. And unless your name is Fiona, and you live in Thedas, nothing I said was a personal attack. LOL.

[LobselVith8]

Well it states that Vivienne has the templars leashed which to me basically means that their abuses wont fly anymore, perhaps people are getting to see a side of Vivienne i have yet to encounter.

 

It says that Vivienne controls the templars, which means they are subservient to her; that doesn't mean abuses will never happen anymore.

 

From what i gathered in our interactions she seems to legit want whats best for mages ( she also wants power yes but still ) , you might argue that whats best for mages is setting them free but to her thats not the case and i agree , she believes that mages should attend the circle , learn to control their magic in order to make sure they arent a danger to themselves and others and those who prove they are trustworthy are allowed to leave outside of it ......so i have absolutely no reason to believe that she would allow them to suffer as they have in the past provided they are within the circle walls.

 

Frankly, Vivienne seems to want what is best for her. Vivienne has no problem enjoying the luxuries of having freedom and power while arguing that mages shouldn't have these, which makes her something of a hypocrite.

[Kinsz]

You're ignoring the fact that its made obvious the only reason Vivienne keeps her throne is because of Inquisition. All candidates needs the support of Inquisition to become the Divine, but only Vivienne needs it to stay in power. With this in mind, and the fact that there was months of chaos and death following Vivienne becoming Divine, her so called "peace" hangs by a very thin thread. Just because she give mages slightly more freedom will not solve anything hence the three rebellion one after another. Neither Leliana nor Cassandra meet that much resistance and they bring quite big reforms to the table.

 

Vivienne is a disgrace to what Justinia tried to achieve and its simply unacceptable in a larger scale. Thedas needs changes and reforms, Cassandra and Leliana do a very good job at it but Vivienne goes back to the old ways. She delaying the inevitable change the south needs. 

 

On a side note, I read your posts carefully and answer line by line but you use childish arguments and accusations. So really, you can't talk about how wrong I am when you lack basic etiquette of discussing something politely.

Which why i said that Initially the others would find it easier to access the throne than Vivienne and the epilogue ( since you like to quote it so much )states they get more freedom than they have ever had not just " slightly" as you claim.

 

Vivienne admired Justinia and what is Vivienne doing thats so different from what Justinia was doing ? no base for this argument other than blind hate

 

Its funny you bring Cassandra considering that she pretty much does the same thing that Vivienne does lol reforming the circles and the templars etc... again bias at its finest........sir , polite enough?

[Colonelkillabee]

All of this arguing and debating, just because someone doesn't like Vivienne killing Fiona in one outcome. Hilarious.