49 réponses à ce sujet

[Alan Drifter13]

If you still use Flashfire at level 8 bears, you are doing something wrong. By level 6 the majority of the core build is built (Fire Mine/Static Cage). At that point You do not get the mana or luxury to use useless spells as Flashfire. 

 

Flashfire is useless. At level1  it is better to save mana and use Chain Lightning on CD. When you reach Haven it is better to respec and get Fade Step + Chain Lightning/Winter's Grasp. Then move down for Fire mine and Wall of Fire. 

 

Every now and then in the Hinterlands a bear comes out and attacks the your party from a side, which can easily kill a couple of characters if you are no more than lvl 5. Flashfire has a panic effect that I found to be the easiest and fastest way to get rid of the problem. Since the bear attacks alone, panicking him gives you the time you need to put your tank on his way. Also, while he comes back (a few seconds of panic will have been enough for him to get quite a distance), you ranged characters will have time to deal some extra damage from a safe position. I saw no reason not to start those early bear fights with flashfire.

[draken-heart]

Every now and then in the Hinterlands a bear comes out and attacks the your party from a side, which can easily kill a couple of characters if you are no more than lvl 5. Flashfire has a panic effect that I found to be the easiest and fastest way to get rid of the problem. Since the bear attacks alone, panicking him gives you the time you need to put your tank on his way. Also, while he comes back (a few seconds of panic will have been enough for him to get quite a distance), you ranged characters will have time to deal some extra damage from a safe position. I saw no reason not to start those early bear fights with flashfire.

Do not argue with Matth85, he is a numbers/min-maxer, who cares only for the most number-efficient way to play, not knowing that one could easily play how they want the early levels then min-max once they get their specialization (which is less important that gear, and more important than party tactics).

The way I see it, the problem with mages is not the mana, but the spells themselves. Unless you are a knight enchanter (post-skyhold+), it is not simple, as you have to contend with cooldowns a lot. Immolate has 16 seconds, but Fire mine and Wall of Fire have 24 and 32 respectively. Casting those may not be that helpful in the long run. Early on, for both mana and cooldown (and thus damage) efficiency, it is best to stick with three points into the fire tree (immolate, flashpoint passive and, clean burn passive) and go for the cheaper spells all around.

[Matth85]

Every now and then in the Hinterlands a bear comes out and attacks the your party from a side, which can easily kill a couple of characters if you are no more than lvl 5. Flashfire has a panic effect that I found to be the easiest and fastest way to get rid of the problem. Since the bear attacks alone, panicking him gives you the time you need to put your tank on his way. Also, while he comes back (a few seconds of panic will have been enough for him to get quite a distance), you ranged characters will have time to deal some extra damage from a safe position. I saw no reason not to start those early bear fights with flashfire.

There are 2 areas were bears spawn. The west side, where everything is level 8 and rifts are level 12, and the mountain above the hoursemaster. If you rush up there you might get bears at level 5, if you are unlucky. However, it still leaves the question why you would want flashfire up to that point? At level 5 I would go:

 

Chain Lightning/Winter's grasp

Fade Step

Energy Barrage

Immolate

Flashpoint

either

Pyromancer

Fire mine

or

Clean Burn

Wall of Fire

 

Fire Mine hits bear for 1k non-crit at level 5. Fire Wall is just superior to flashfire in every way.

 

 

Do not argue with Matth85, he is a numbers/min-maxer, who cares only for the most number-efficient way to play, not knowing that one could easily play how they want the early levels then min-max once they get their specialization (which is less important that gear, and more important than party tactics).

The way I see it, the problem with mages is not the mana, but the spells themselves. Unless you are a knight enchanter (post-skyhold+), it is not simple, as you have to contend with cooldowns a lot. Immolate has 16 seconds, but Fire mine and Wall of Fire have 24 and 32 respectively. Casting those may not be that helpful in the long run. Early on, for both mana and cooldown (and thus damage) efficiency, it is best to stick with three points into the fire tree (immolate, flashpoint passive and, clean burn passive) and go for the cheaper spells all around.

 

Well aren't you cosy.

You do realize early levels are the hardest part of this game, and which is the only time minmaxing is remotely interesting, right? 

That said, Flashfire is useless not because of minmaxing, but because of its design. Let's run down with it:

Low damage, long CD, high mana cost(!!),  average panic(I found this unreliable). Chain Lightning is a better CC early game, Winter's grasp is a better combo early-game and ability points are few early game. As a mage you really want to get a few things:

 

Chain Lightning or Winter's Grasp.

Fade Step

Clean Burn

Energy Barrage

 

That is already 6 points taken. This means you either start of by being in flashfire and do mediocre damage early on, or you go Immolate and do pretty solid aoe damage. 

 

It's not a question whether you can use it or not -- of course you can. It's a question whether it is useless compared to every other spell. Which it is. By the time you meet bears you can have Wall of Fire, which is directly superior to flashfire in every single way. If you are not afraid of bears early, you can go fire mine and kill them in record time due to their fire weakness and high damage of fire mine.

[Alan Drifter13]

There are 2 areas were bears spawn. The west side, where everything is level 8 and rifts are level 12, and the mountain above the hoursemaster. If you rush up there you might get bears at level 5, if you are unlucky. However, it still leaves the question why you would want flashfire up to that point? At level 5 I would go:

 

Chain Lightning/Winter's grasp

Fade Step

Energy Barrage

Immolate

Flashpoint

either

Pyromancer

Fire mine

or

Clean Burn

Wall of Fire

 

Fire Mine hits bear for 1k non-crit at level 5. Fire Wall is just superior to flashfire in every way.

 

 

I rushed to the area around the horse master to get the horse early in the game. And as I pointed out before, the reason I used flashfire at that point (keep in mind I don't use the free re-spec until I get the specialization, so I'm stuck with it until I get to Skyhold) is to get the bear to panic and properly position my party. Also, it gives me time to do some "free" extra damage to him while he tries to approach again.

[actionhero112]

I rushed to the area around the horse master to get the horse early in the game. And as I pointed out before, the reason I used flashfire at that point (keep in mind I don't use the free re-spec until I get the specialization, so I'm stuck with it until I get to Skyhold) is to get the bear to panic and properly position my party. Also, it gives me time to do some "free" extra damage to him while he tries to approach again.

You get two free respecs. One in haven, one in skyhold. Flashfire is worth a reroll just cause it's so bleh. 

[draken-heart]

Well aren't you cosy.
You do realize early levels are the hardest part of this game, and which is the only time minmaxing is remotely interesting, right? 
That said, Flashfire is useless not because of minmaxing, but because of its design. Let's run down with it:
Low damage, long CD, high mana cost(!!),  average panic(I found this unreliable). Chain Lightning is a better CC early game, Winter's grasp is a better combo early-game and ability points are few early game. As a mage you really want to get a few things:
 
Chain Lightning or Winter's Grasp.
Fade Step
Clean Burn
Energy Barrage
 
That is already 6 points taken. This means you either start of by being in flashfire and do mediocre damage early on, or you go Immolate and do pretty solid aoe damage. 
 
It's not a question whether you can use it or not -- of course you can. It's a question whether it is useless compared to every other spell. Which it is. By the time you meet bears you can have Wall of Fire, which is directly superior to flashfire in every single way. If you are not afraid of bears early, you can go fire mine and kill them in record time due to their fire weakness and high damage of fire mine.

When facing bears, if you have a proper party (warrior, rogue and two mages) neither of the spells that are "better" than flashfire are really worth it. IF you have to use fire mine or wall of fire on a BEAR, which is not that tough to begin with (I beat then without those abilities), you are doing something wrong.

[Exalus]

 

Well aren't you cosy.

You do realize early levels are the hardest part of this game, and which is the only time minmaxing is remotely interesting, right? 

That said, Flashfire is useless not because of minmaxing, but because of its design. Let's run down with it:

Low damage, long CD, high mana cost(!!),  average panic(I found this unreliable). Chain Lightning is a better CC early game, Winter's grasp is a better combo early-game and ability points are few early game. As a mage you really want to get a few things:

 

Chain Lightning or Winter's Grasp.

Fade Step

Clean Burn

Energy Barrage

 

That is already 6 points taken. This means you either start of by being in flashfire and do mediocre damage early on, or you go Immolate and do pretty solid aoe damage. 

 

It's not a question whether you can use it or not -- of course you can. It's a question whether it is useless compared to every other spell. Which it is. By the time you meet bears you can have Wall of Fire, which is directly superior to flashfire in every single way. If you are not afraid of bears early, you can go fire mine and kill them in record time due to their fire weakness and high damage of fire mine.

Is there something particularly good about chain lightning besides the fact it hits several opponents and it can setup combos with shock and potentially deep sleep? Same for barrage.

 

 

The issue of game progression is a saddening one that basically means the game ends as soon as you finish the battle of haven unless you commit yourself to not using any schematics above t2 or any sort of specialization skills.

[actionhero112]

When facing bears, if you have a proper party (warrior, rogue and two mages) neither of the spells that are "better" than flashfire are really worth it. IF you have to use fire mine or wall of fire on a BEAR, which is not that tough to begin with (I beat then without those abilities), you are doing something wrong.

Lol this argument.

 

 

Why would I not use better abilities if I have them? Neither of them are focus abilities, there is no real cost to using them. In fact they both use less mana and do more damage than flashfire, wall of fire even provides better cc. Intentionally handicapping yourself is ridiculous and right now I'm laughing. 

 

I'll be sure to tell your friends that you held back on a video game enemy. It wasn't even your final form amirite? Becky! The camera! This guy beat a bear without wall of fire! NO FOR REAL!

[draken-heart]

Lol this argument.
 
 
Why would I not use better abilities if I have them? Neither of them are focus abilities, there is no real cost to using them. In fact they both use less mana and do more damage than flashfire, wall of fire even provides better cc. Intentionally handicapping yourself is ridiculous and right now I'm laughing. 
 
I'll be sure to tell your friends that you held back on a video game enemy. It wasn't even your final form amirite?

Immolate does good damage, has the same mana cost as the two "high end" abilities, but has a lower cooldown, meaning I can use it more often and still kill a bear efficiently.

Note: I am not saying that the abilities at the end of the fire tree are worse than flashfire, but the cool down makes those less efficient than the "weaker" immolate, and having trouble with bears means something is wrong, not that fire mine or wall of flame are needed.

Immolate has 16 second cooldown on 35 mana cost, Fire mine has 24 second cooldown, and wall of fire has 32 second cooldown. Those would be nice if the ability effects last that long, but they do not, so the cooldown is an enemy.

[actionhero112]

Immolate does good damage, has the same mana cost as the two "high end" abilities, but has a lower cooldown, meaning I can use it more often and still kill a bear efficiently.

Note: I am not saying that the abilities at the end of the fire tree are worse than flashfire, but the cool down makes those less efficient than the "weaker" immolate, and having trouble with bears means something is wrong, not that fire mine or wall of flame are needed.

Yes but why would you use flashfire? Immolate is a great ability. Even the guy you responded too had immolate in his build. 

 

Flashfire tho? 

[Matth85]

Is there something particularly good about chain lightning besides the fact it hits several opponents and it can setup combos with shock and potentially deep sleep? Same for barrage.

 

Wouldn't that be enough? Stuns and allows for higher damage? Sounds good. I personally like Winter's Grasp more- But, eh, it's miles ahead of Flashfire!

Energy barrage is low cost and 12 hits. It's the second best damage per mana spent. It also uses your staffs type, making it the most flexible ability.

 

 

Immolate does good damage, has the same mana cost as the two "high end" abilities, but has a lower cooldown, meaning I can use it more often and still kill a bear efficiently.

Note: I am not saying that the abilities at the end of the fire tree are worse than flashfire, but the cool down makes those less efficient than the "weaker" immolate, and having trouble with bears means something is wrong, not that fire mine or wall of flame are needed.

Did you just tell me Immolate is better than Fire mine?

'cause if you did, excuse me while I fall off my chair. 

[draken-heart]

Did you just tell me Immolate is better than Fire mine?
'cause if you did, excuse me while I fall off my chair.

In terms of mana and damage to cooldown ratio, yes. I still get good damage (about 200% of weapon damage). And unless I get surprised by a bear, my usual strategy of keep the bear away from the mages usually allows me to use immolate to better effect.

Bears are normally not a challenge to me unless they surprise me, so I find no need for Fire mine or Wall of Fire. They are good abilities, and if they had a lower cooldown (say around the same as immolate) I would see more use out of them outside of bosses/situational fights.

[Matth85]

In terms of mana and damage to cooldown ratio, yes. I still get good damage (about 200% of weapon damage). And unless I get surprised by a bear, my usual strategy of keep the bear away from the mages usually allows me to use immolate to better effect.

 

You... you really have no clue, don't you? Check up on Fire Mine again. Note the damage modifier, cost and cooldown. Then look at immolate. 

Immolate is only useful until Fire Mine, at which you should drop immolate from your bars. 

[draken-heart]

You... you really have no clue, don't you? Check up on Fire Mine again. Note the damage modifier, cost and cooldown. Then look at immolate. 
Immolate is only useful until Fire Mine, at which you should drop immolate from your bars.

Honestly, do you read? I find bears no trouble, no matter the spell used on it. I find the cooldown not worth the damage from it.

I find more problems with bandits and demons that group up on me than one single bear on Inquisitor and 3 other party members.

What I am saying is that 1 bear + inquisitor and 3 party members = all party members focusing on that one bear and that bear dying.

[Matth85]

Honestly, do you read? I find bears no trouble, no matter the spell used on it. I find the cooldown not worth the damage from it.

I find more problems with bandits and demons that group up on me than one single bear on Inquisitor and 3 other party members.

What I am saying is that 1 bear + inquisitor and 3 party members = all party members focusing on that one bear and that bear dying.

I have no concern about whether you can kill a bear or not. I never mentioned it. I am talking about the whole "Immolate is better than Fire mine!" talk. The rest is irrelevant.

[draken-heart]

I have no concern about whether you can kill a bear or not. I never mentioned it. I am talking about the whole "Immolate is better than Fire mine!" talk. The rest is irrelevant.

Cooldown is not irrelevant, except to those who only care about damage. Every second that Fire mine is on cooldown is less damage it will actually end up doing.

I would rather take Immolate that I can use for 99% of the fights and use often to a POSSIBLE once per fight fire mine, that might not even hit the majority of enemies.

[sinosleep]

Flashfire is indeed awful. I spec out of it at first opportunity every single time.

[Matth85]

Cooldown is not irrelevant, except to those who only care about damage. Every second that Fire mine is on cooldown is less damage it will actually end up doing.

I would rather take Immolate that I can use for 99% of the fights and use often to a POSSIBLE once per fight fire mine, that might not even hit the majority of enemies.

Oh my.

[teks]

I have no concern about whether you can kill a bear or not. I never mentioned it. I am talking about the whole "Immolate is better than Fire mine!" talk. The rest is irrelevant.

I killed a bear with my bare hands thus your point is moot. If you disagree then kill a bear with your teeth, and maybe I'll listen

[draken-heart]

Oh my.

What I am saying is that Fire mine IS more powerful, but Immolate can be used more often, making it perfect for the early levels.

This is all my opinion, you know? I find the cooldown on Fire mine hurts it usefulness for me, no matter how powerful it is (I agree that it is better damage than Immolate, but not completely better than Immolate in general).

All-in-all, I think that fire mine is better than immolate in the boss killer department, but in terms of killing mooks and random mobs, I think the low cooldown of immolate wins out on my list.

But I am not going to continue this discussion. In the end, Immolate can perfom just as well pre-skyhold due to the lower cooldown, While Fire mine is a great boss/Frost-breathing Dragon Killer due to the high damage you should have at the time you use it.

[JaegerBane]

I killed a bear with my bare hands thus your point is moot. If you disagree then kill a bear with your teeth, and maybe I'll listen

PICTURES OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN

[teks]

PICTURES OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN

No pics but a got medal of honor from stephen colbert.

[draken-heart]

Hell, I would go so far as to say that WALL OF FIRE is the best fire spell in the entire game, simply due to how long it lasts, and when combined with Static Cage, puts fire mine to shame in terms of the damage done to groups.

If you do not go WALL of FIRE + STATIC CAGE for pre-Skyhold, you are a baby.

[teks]

I love that moment when a rage demon runs through a fire wall, and panics because he is 'on fire'. What morons.

[draken-heart]

I love that moment when a rage demon runs through a fire wall, and panics because he is 'on fire'. What morons.

Plus, with Pyromancer (which any mage putting any decent number of points into inferno should get) and the upgrade, that is 200% weapon damage for 15 seconds, more than enough to shut up a single shot from fire mine, especially with the Duration of the effect itself. Wave fights are pretty pointless.