Ash declares you a "God" in the first act of ME2. Well, some guy named Conrad Vernor. Really?!
Seems you didn't play Mass Effect...
I always figured that was more in reference to the coming back from the dead thing. In any event, she refuses to work with Shepard and condemns him for being with Cerberus in the same conversation. Calls him a traitor. She can't be that sycophantic.
No, you're implicitly claiming the main narrative doesn't matter at all.
That never happened. Must be one of your delusions.
I always figured that was more in reference to the coming back from the dead thing. In any event, she refuses to work with Shepard and condemns him for being with Cerberus in the same conversation. Calls him a traitor. She can't be that sycophantic.
Ash is a single example amongst an entire trilogy of examples.
Conrad Vernor makes up an entire life story to get your autograph, literally changes his life trying to imitate you, and then takes a fake bullet for you.
And I'm not sure how you played through all 3 games and didn't come across atleast a dozen npc's expecting Shepard to save them or the galaxy.
That's exactly what happened and what continues to be happening if you're pushing more filler as the solution to BioWare's narrative shortcomings.
But let us clear the air. To write powerful, strong, meaningful characters, characters that will surpass the ones they've written before and provide a better story, BioWare needs to implement conflicts and resolutions that enunciate character qualities and truths. No amount of romance, hugs, banter, dates, or side conversations is going to accomplish that. By itself, anyway.
You would agree?
If you do, we can drop this.
That's exactly what happened and what continues to be happening if you're pushing more filler as the solution to BioWare's narrative shortcomings.
But let us clear the air. To write powerful, strong, meaningful characters, BioWare needs to implement conflicts and resolutions that enunciate character qualities and truths. No amount of romance, hugs, banter, dates, or side conversations is going to accomplish that. By itself, anyway.
You would agree?
If you do, we can drop this.
That's not what happened at all, actually. Your misinterpretation draws false conclusions. First of all, I never said "romances, hugs, dates" aka 'filler' were a solution to narrative issues.
I have no inclination to agree with somebody putting words in my mouth.
Conflicts and resolutions that enunciate character qualities and truths can come about and be explored through banter and side conversations amongst other approaches. They are not mutually exclusive.
Conflicts and resolutions that enunciate character qualities and truths can come about and be explored through banter and side conversations amongst other approaches. They are not mutually exclusive.
Since conflict is the core of the story, if a conversation is exploring it, it isn't a side conversation pretty much by definition. And the story should be a little more involved then just listening to companions banter about whatever the conflict is. I've certainly never heard any kind of climax and resolution done through banter.
No, they're not mutually exclusive, as I made clear on my post at the bottom of the last page. I hope we're clear at this point that do not I hate or want to get rid of filler content because it's not what BioWare needs to do better.
Since conflict is the core of the story, if a conversation is exploring it, it isn't a side conversation pretty much by definition. And the story should be a little more involved then just listening to companions banter about whatever the conflict is. I've certainly never heard any kind of climax and resolution done through banter.
No, they're not mutually exclusive, as I made clear on my post at the bottom of the last page. I hope we're clear at this point that do not I hate or want to get rid of filler content because it's not what BioWare needs to do better.
Any conversation had outside of the main narrative (i.e. main story missions and cutscenes) is a side conversation. That does not exclude it from including current events or entities involved within the plot. I never said the story should be contained to banter, so I'm not sure where you came up with that assumption.
Bioware needs to do everything better.
BioWare could scrap the romances, scrap all the banter, scrap most of the filler conversations, and they could still tell an absolute masterpiece of a story so long as they had a great conflict and resolution. Whereas if they don't bother with a conflict and resolution but wrote out the best banter ever seen in a game, it would still be a complete joke of a story.
Conflict and resolution is where their focus needs to be. That's where they're coming up short. Tweaking their banter is not going to change much. Once they get the fundamentals right, they can spend all the time on frills they want.
You're the only one so focused on banter. As I said, they have room to improve in all aspects.
And what you're suggesting is something akin to an extremely linear tps like TLoU. Not an rpg.
Bioware's bane is they're too fanservicey. They're firmly in the escapist tradition and seem to have a hard time getting past that, if they even want to. Thing is, if you really want your story to be outstanding, popcorn is not the way to go.
That's what Josh Sawyer vs Patrick Weekes is all about, now isn't it? And I'm pretty much with Sawyer on this one, no offense meant to Weekes. Ultimately, Bioware's romances (Bioware's games, really) are very given to fanservice. They're kind of afraid of doing anything that isn't pulp. And who can blame them, since they've proven they're good with pulp over and over again, while pretty much everything they've done that isn't pulp (like ME3's ending and DA2, for example) has sucked royally.
Aaaaaand this brings us back to the reason I am writing this:
But let us clear the air. To write powerful, strong, meaningful characters, characters that will surpass the ones they've written before and provide a better story, BioWare needs to implement conflicts and resolutions that enunciate character qualities and truths. No amount of romance, hugs, banter, dates, or side conversations is going to accomplish that. By itself, anyway.
They need, put prosaically, to grow a pair. Can they do something real daring with their romances? Gaider even talked about this once, I believe, how he didn't believe success in a romance should be guaranteed... but he did realize the fans probably wouldn't agree. The narrative shouldn't be streamlined. I would gladly take fewer, less "safe" romances if it meant a chance to up the quality.
However, I don't think that's the kind of story Bioware wants to tell, much less the kind of story the fans want to play. Because that's not what they have been conditioned to expect, honestly.
Guest_blameitondwayne_*
FemShep has two romances that fail. If you roll straight female characters like I do, because I do self inserts and that means straight female protagonists, then you lose half of your romances. You can call it realistic. Yes, people cheat and people die. As for quality...
The option to tell Jacob's ass off, to tell him off proportionally to the s**t he says and does in the break-up scene, is absent. He blames you for his infidelity because you were locked up for 6 months (BTW none of maleShep's girlfriends moved on), tells you he got his new girlfriend pregnant, wants to name the baby after you, then you deal with the bitchy girlfriend. It was rather galling and I felt the writer of that particular scene was being a bit spiteful. I wanted Shepard to tell him what a low-down, dirty dog he was and defend herself. As a woman of color myself (black) I would have...well i'll keep quiet.
I would have appreciated an actual date-like scene with Thane (since he's going to die in the first half of the game and be gone forever) where I could discuss the stuff he talks about in his post-mortem Citadel DLC videos. I was rather confused that he mentions his son to friend!Shep and non-loyal-to!Shep, but for some reason mentions nothing about Kolyat if he is romanced. I would have thought that given the level of intimacy between a romance!Shep and Thane that he would talk about a lot more than his sickness; like how's your son and how are you two getting along, what were you doing during those 6 months, did you get to see a desert?. Nope had to wait for the Citadel DLC, which I watched on youtube.
[Optional death-Miranda] If you choose to let Miranda die Shepard can tell her he loves her and she to him. [Mandatory death-Thane] FemShep cannot tell Thane she loves him before he dies, and I really regret that. I regret it in the way I would regret not telling a loved one I love them before they die. The prayer is nice and is shared identically with friend!Shep, but once you have fallen in love and made love with someone I think the need to express the depth of that loss is rather important. I wanted her to have tears and/or say she loved him on his deathbed. I only get that declaration of love and tears if I buy the Citadel DLC, and Thane never sees my femShep's tears or hears that declaration of love.
I'd like to see more realistic and failed romances as well. I'd like to see a romance with a character that is deceiving and manipulating the protagonist with sex to some detrimental end. But I hope the tragic or doomed romances are not all heaped on the female protagonist, nor the gay male protagonist should he be limited to one or two romances again.
Sorry but after reading that post made by that Sawyer guy, he sounds like a b!tchy little girl trying to act as if he is so far above the quaint desires of the general gaming masses... as if he aspires to something so much more profound in his story telling compared to every other video game writer out there. He's not f-cking Dostoevsky for sobbing out loud. If he wants to write the next Crime and Punishment, he should go do that and stop sh!tting on other writers.
As for writing more nuanced romances that take you to unexpected places, I'm all for that. But making a story grim or angsty or tragic only works in small doses. If players want escapism and want to come out on top then they should be allowed to. I stopped watching indie films for a long time even though they used to be all I watched because it was f-cking depressing. Now I decide to watch a film based on my mood. Sometimes I want something cerebral and maybe gloomy and other times I want to turn my brain off and get caught up in the action, the music, the visuals, the feeling of optimism.
If Bioware wants to go down the road of a no-win romance then they'll need to balance it with a you-can-have-it-all romance. I think this goes for the story telling in general. Have moments when you can't win (Virmire) but overall make beating the game feel like a victory. I don't care if you think my wanting those warm and fuzzies as the credits roll makes me shallow. I'm the same as Weekes in that he says he wants to play the hero. I do too and to me the hero prevails and gets the girl/guy. If I wanted something dark and sinister or miserable to play, I'd be playing... I don't know because that doesn't really interest me.
I think conflict in romances can be good but if it's insurmountable because the writer feels that a player shouldn't get everything they want, I don't see the point of it. They might feel like it's good story telling and it may be but the difference between a film and a game is that in a film you are just a spectator of someone else's story and with a game (particularly RPGs) you are a participant in your own story. Your PC's triumphs and failures are yours and if the writers do their job, when your PC hurts, you hurt. I don't particularly want to spend 100+ hours going from one painful moment to the next only for everything to end up in the shitter.
That might just be me though.
They need, put prosaically, to grow a pair. Can they do something real daring with their romances? Gaider even talked about this once, I believe, how he didn't believe success in a romance should be guaranteed... but he did realize the fans probably wouldn't agree. The narrative shouldn't be streamlined. I would gladly take fewer, less "safe" romances if it meant a chance to up the quality.
However, I don't think that's the kind of story Bioware wants to tell, much less the kind of story the fans want to play. Because that's not what they have been conditioned to expect, honestly.
Okay, a lil' about me. I'm drunk, number one. And I'm gonna tell you a story, number two.
For those of you that didn't know, I started with ME2. Y'all remember the scene in that game where your sitting across from Morinth? I chose every blasted wrong thing that you could choose. "So, what about your parents?" "So, how 'bout them Justicars?" Every. Single. Wrong. Thing. Because they were important to me.
Now, if you think that my virtual love life was any better, think again. I chose every single wrong thing there too. Still, the game captured my imagination. You could say it's because I chose the wrong things that it did capture my imagination. But I'll leave that for another thread.
Okay, a lil' about me. I'm drunk, number one. And I'm gonna tell you a story, number two.
For those of you that didn't know, I started with ME2. Y'all remember the scene in that game where your sitting across from Morinth? I chose every blasted wrong thing that you could choose. "So, what about your parents?" "So, how 'bout them Justicars?" Every. Single. Wrong. Thing. Because they were important to me.
Now, if you think that my virtual love life was any better, think again. I chose every single wrong thing there too. Still, the game captured my imagination. You could say it's because I chose the wrong things that it did capture my imagination. But I'll leave that for another thread.
- Your story was quite short. When you said "I'm gonna tell you a story y'all!" I expected more.
Well, if you were sitting right here, I could guarantee you that that five (Maybe?) sentence paragraph would've turned into a half hour session.
I'm still waiting for a AI romance. I would had love a EDI romance in ME2, it would take the captain being in love with their ship trope to the next level.
For aliens Hanar, they have to have a fox news controversy for the start of a new era, right?
That's what Josh Sawyer vs Patrick Weekes is all about, now isn't it? And I'm pretty much with Sawyer on this one, no offense meant to Weekes. Ultimately, Bioware's romances (Bioware's games, really) are very given to fanservice. They're kind of afraid of doing anything that isn't pulp. And who can blame them, since they've proven they're good with pulp over and over again, while pretty much everything they've done that isn't pulp (like ME3's ending and DA2, for example) has sucked royally.
Okay...
First things first. Sawyer comes off as a pretty solid hypocrite saying all this. He whines about love being reduced to "shallow, masturbatory fantasy indulgence," what about his own games? Is New Vegas supposed to be better in not reducing friendships to indulgence? The companions in Vegas don't fall in love with you, but they still thank you, call you a good person, make it clear you're friends. And that's possible for every companion in a single playthrough. I really don't see any fundamental difference just because it's not love. It's still 'insert correct dialogue option, receive victory condition/good relationship from companions.' None of the companions have conflicts that are really done well. Arcade's, who he personally wrote, was garbled and flat and I really didn't get anything out of it. Granted, I haven't played Pillers of Eternity or some of the older games he's written for, and I was severely disappointed with Inquisition, but overall, what I've seen from BioWare has done a better job of this than what I've seen from him.
Secondly, you seem to be dangerously close to suggesting that the path towards mature, intelligent, and meaningful stories is more frustration and failure and less success and triumph. That the protagonist and the player getting what they want equates to fanservice and 'pulp.' That's utter nonsense. It's every bit as foolish as the people who think the writing will become great once enough cuddles and hugs have been added. In fact, it's considerably worse, since it introduces an additional element of hypocrisy. (At least the people who advocate cuddles and hugs actually embrace that sort of thing in real life, whereas the people who gleefully shill their little 'fire and blood' morality over the internet would cry like little girls were they ever to experience such things in reality. On either side.)
Contrary to what that bumbling clown Martin delights in claiming, that sort of thing only pushes stories away from maturity and realism and further towards the aforementioned pretend-land masturbatory fantasies.
BioWare has built outstanding characters and arcs in the past with very triumphant conclusions. That's not 'fanservice' and it's not 'pulp,' In fact, it's quite the opposite.
I'd like to see more realistic and failed romances as well. I'd like to see a romance with a character that is deceiving and manipulating the protagonist with sex to some detrimental end. But I hope the tragic or doomed romances are not all heaped on the female protagonist, nor the gay male protagonist should he be limited to one or two romances again.
Never claimed making the romance less predictable and cliche would solve anything by itself. Nor do I particularly care who the "failed" romances are heaped onto.
Sorry but after reading that post made by that Sawyer guy, he sounds like a b!tchy little girl trying to act as if he is so far above the quaint desires of the general gaming masses... as if he aspires to something so much more profound in his story telling compared to every other video game writer out there. He's not f-cking Dostoevsky for sobbing out loud. If he wants to write the next Crime and Punishment, he should go do that and stop sh!tting on other writers.
You don't need to be Dostoevsky to want to be a better writer.
As for writing more nuanced romances that take you to unexpected places, I'm all for that. But making a story grim or angsty or tragic only works in small doses. If players want escapism and want to come out on top then they should be allowed to. I stopped watching indie films for a long time even though they used to be all I watched because it was f-cking depressing. Now I decide to watch a film based on my mood. Sometimes I want something cerebral and maybe gloomy and other times I want to turn my brain off and get caught up in the action, the music, the visuals, the feeling of optimism.
If Bioware wants to go down the road of a no-win romance then they'll need to balance it with a you-can-have-it-all romance. I think this goes for the story telling in general. Have moments when you can't win (Virmire) but overall make beating the game feel like a victory. I don't care if you think my wanting those warm and fuzzies as the credits roll makes me shallow. I'm the same as Weekes in that he says he wants to play the hero. I do too and to me the hero prevails and gets the girl/guy. If I wanted something dark and sinister or miserable to play, I'd be playing... I don't know because that doesn't really interest me.
I think conflict in romances can be good but if it's insurmountable because the writer feels that a player shouldn't get everything they want, I don't see the point of it. They might feel like it's good story telling and it may be but the difference between a film and a game is that in a film you are just a spectator of someone else's story and with a game (particularly RPGs) you are a participant in your own story. Your PC's triumphs and failures are yours and if the writers do their job, when your PC hurts, you hurt. I don't particularly want to spend 100+ hours going from one painful moment to the next only for everything to end up in the shitter.
That might just be me though.
I'd like to think there's a balance between "story that kicks you in the balls every time you knock" and "story that gives you a ride every time you knock". Bit of hyperbole, but you get my drift.
Okay, a lil' about me. I'm drunk, number one. And I'm gonna tell you a story, number two.
For those of you that didn't know, I started with ME2. Y'all remember the scene in that game where your sitting across from Morinth? I chose every blasted wrong thing that you could choose. "So, what about your parents?" "So, how 'bout them Justicars?" Every. Single. Wrong. Thing. Because they were important to me.
Now, if you think that my virtual love life was any better, think again. I chose every single wrong thing there too. Still, the game captured my imagination. You could say it's because I chose the wrong things that it did capture my imagination. But I'll leave that for another thread.
So... you agree?
Okay...
First things first. Sawyer comes off as a pretty solid hypocrite saying all this. He whines about love being reduced to "shallow, masturbatory fantasy indulgence," what about his own games? Is New Vegas supposed to be better in not reducing friendships to indulgence? The companions in Vegas don't fall in love with you, but they still thank you, call you a good person, make it clear you're friends. And that's possible for every companion in a single playthrough. I really don't see any fundamental difference just because it's not love. It's still 'insert correct dialogue option, receive victory condition/good relationship from companions.' None of the companions have conflicts that are really done well. Arcade's, who he personally wrote, was garbled and flat and I really didn't get anything out of it. Granted, I haven't played Pillers of Eternity or some of the older games he's written for, and I was severely disappointed with Inquisition, but overall, what I've seen from BioWare has done a better job of this than what I've seen from him.
He does kind of admit to this himself:
Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.
Implying he's done it before.
Secondly, you seem to be dangerously close to suggesting that the path towards mature, intelligent, and meaningful stories is more frustration and failure and less success and triumph.
That would be a good start.
That the protagonist and the player getting what they want equates to fanservice and 'pulp.'
Not at all. It's the protagonist and the player always (or very often) getting what they want that's the issue.
That's utter nonsense. It's every bit as foolish as the people who think the writing will become great once enough cuddles and hugs have been added. In fact, it's considerably worse, since it introduces an additional element of hypocrisy. (At least the people who advocate cuddles and hugs actually embrace that sort of thing in real life, whereas the people who gleefully shill their little 'fire and blood' morality over the internet would cry like little girls were they ever to experience such things in reality. On either side.)
First, you assume I haven't experienced "fire and blood", whatever that is.
Second, I don't consume speculative fiction to experience the exact same things I do in real life. Shocking, I know.
Contrary to what that bumbling clown Martin delights in claiming, that sort of thing only pushes stories away from maturity and realism and further towards the aforementioned pretend-land masturbatory fantasies.
Martin is a fairly common name. But I imagine you refer to George R. R. Martin. If so, a) I don't see the need to bring him into the discussion and 
you mean the same man who wrote this?
Also, I would greatly appreciate a bit more justifying your position. All you've done here is claim that I'm wrong and you are right. I mean, that doesn't even make sense. Why would my "masturbatory fantasy" be full of death, loneliness and tragedy? That's not even what I'm advocating, but you seem to think it is, so let's roll with it.
BioWare has built outstanding characters and arcs in the past with very triumphant conclusions.
You give them entirely too much credit.
That's not 'fanservice' and it's not 'pulp,' In fact, it's quite the opposite.
It isn't. Coincidentally, it also isn't what I'm talking about. Take a look at the title of the thread for a hint.
No. At least as far as I'm able to follow this conversation. And here's why.
Once you play through it once or twice, you'll know all the right moves to make. You'll know that if you do X, Y, or Z what the specific outcomes will be.
What you seem to be asking for is a fully developed AI that can, in effect, read your mind. Or rather, read your emotions. Read your style of gameplay. Oh, ****, he's waaaaay too aggressive this session! Better take it down a notch. Read your breathing rate. Hell, even read your biometrics. It, ME:N, can then react accordingly. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the tech just ain't there yet. Anybody can be a critic of writing. I just think that you're pushing it a lil' far.
And about the turian/quarian dextro romance thing... They assume we're all adults. We can tell people, even aliens (OH MY GOD!) what we like. And those people, even aliens (OH MY GOD!) can tell us what they like. It doesn't have to be traditional. Hell, it doesn't even have to be normal. It's whatever Shepard and who ever's sitting on his/her lap decide it to be. It's not like dextro DNA is acid that's gonna eat the skin off'a our junk.
They assume that we're not baser hormonally driven teenagers. But then again, they might assume too much. As a matter of fact, that's one reason why I love this game. A game without hormonally driven protagonist? SCORE! You never see that in American literature. Certainly never in games.
No. At least as far as I'm able to follow this conversation. And here's why.
Once you play through it once or twice, you'll know all the right moves to make. You'll know that if you do X, Y, or Z what the specific outcomes will be.
What you seem to be asking for is a fully developed AI that can, in effect, read your mind. Or rather, read your emotions. Read your style of gameplay. Oh, ****, he's waaaaay too aggressive this session! Better take it down a notch. Read your breathing rate. Hell, even read your biometrics. It, ME:N, can then react accordingly. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the tech just ain't there yet. Anybody can be a critic of writing. I just think that you're pushing it a lil' far.
And about the turian/quarian dextro romance thing... They assume we're all adults. We can tell people, even aliens (OH MY GOD!) what we like. And those people, even aliens (OH MY GOD!) can tell us what they like. It doesn't have to be traditional. Hell, it doesn't even have to be normal. It's whatever Shepard and who ever's sitting on his/her lap decide it to be. It's not like dextro DNA is acid that's gonna eat the skin off'a our junk.
They assume that we're not baser hormonally driven teenagers. But then again, they might assume too much. As a matter of fact, that's one reason why I love this game. A game without hormonally driven protagonist? SCORE! You never see that in American literature. Certainly never in games.
What in God's green earth are you talking about? xD
The implausibility of alien romances are the least of my concerns. I can manage suspension of disbelief. It's the romance part I take issue with.
I love how of all pieces of fiction, you consider ME to not treat the audience like hormonally driven teenagers. The irony is strong with this one.
I also love how every time there's a conversation about this someone rushes to mention teenagers in a derogatory manner.
But it's the same thing.
Once you've played through it once or twice you'll know what to hit or what buttons to press. Half of flirting is not knowing what the other person will say or do. The other half is not letting the other person know what you'll say or do next. In other words, it's not scripted.
And please, if you have a script that you use when flirting please don't tell me what it is. Because I think I'll puke.
But it's the same thing.
Once you've played through it once or twice you'll know what to hit or what buttons to press. Half of flirting is not knowing what the other person will say or do. The other half is not letting the other person know what you'll say or do next. In other words, it's not scripted.
I still don't see what this has to do with my argument. Like at all.
What I want is that romances don't come with guaranteed success, where "failed" romances are given as much attention as "successful" ones. I want squadmates in general to not constantly fall on their knees worshiping the protagonist and to show personality beyond the PC more often. I want a variety of relationship dynamics, both for platonic and for romantic relationships. Basically, I want squadmates to be a little less ancillary to the main character.
Will subsequent playthroughs reduce some of the effect? Probably, but that's not really surprising nor relevant. Saying otherwise is like claiming a plot twist in a novel is pointless because when you read it a second time you'll already know it's coming.
I still don't see what this has to do with my argument. Like at all.
What I want is that romances don't come with guaranteed success, where "failed" romances are given as much attention as "successful" ones. I want squadmates in general to not constantly fall on their knees worshiping the protagonist and to show personality beyond the PC more often. I want a variety of relationship dynamics, both for platonic and for romantic relationships. Basically, I want squadmates to be a little less ancillary to the main character.
Will subsequent playthroughs reduce some of the effect? Probably, but that's not really surprising nor relevant. Saying otherwise is like claiming a plot twist in a novel is pointless because when you read it a second time you'll already know it's coming.
This is mainly why I like the way companions are handled for the most part in the medieval-esque counterpart. Obviously you can work your way around to boost approval and say all the right lines once you know what to expect, but the point is that there's more variety and it makes the characters more dynamic, and in the case of a couple of companions, there can even be an extra challenge that makes you question whether or not this companion is worth pursuing, and even one that leaves you no matter what you do. Either way it'll be more fun, maybe even multiple times.
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