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[Han Shot First]

Bioware's bane is they're too fanservicey. They're firmly in the escapist tradition and seem to have a hard time getting past that, if they even want to. Thing is, if you really want your story to be outstanding, popcorn is not the way to go.

 

That's what Josh Sawyer vs Patrick Weekes is all about, now isn't it? And I'm pretty much with Sawyer on this one, no offense meant to Weekes. Ultimately, Bioware's romances (Bioware's games, really) are very given to fanservice. They're kind of afraid of doing anything that isn't pulp. And who can blame them, since they've proven they're good with pulp over and over again, while pretty much everything they've done that isn't pulp (like ME3's ending and DA2, for example) has sucked royally.

 

Aaaaaand this brings us back to the reason I am writing this:

 

 

They need, put prosaically, to grow a pair. Can they do something real daring with their romances? Gaider even talked about this once, I believe, how he didn't believe success in a romance should be guaranteed... but he did realize the fans probably wouldn't agree. The narrative shouldn't be streamlined. I would gladly take fewer, less "safe" romances if it meant a chance to up the quality.

 

However, I don't think that's the kind of story Bioware wants to tell, much less the kind of story the fans want to play. Because that's not what they have been conditioned to expect, honestly.

 

I'd give this post 10,000 likes if I could.

 

Not every romance arc should end in a 'happily ever after,' just as every character's arc shouldn't end in a happy ending. The odd thing about Bioware's reluctance to go that route, is that it hasn't always been the case.

 

Viconia's epilogue from Baldur's Gate is probably the best example of a romance arc that doesn't get a happy ending. And it is an ending that better fits the character and her backstory than a more fanservicey outcome that no doubt some fans wanted.

 

On that note, Mass Effect or the Dragon Age series could use the occasional LI whose romance arc either ends on a bittersweet note, or in tragedy. Storytelling should always trump fanservice.

[TheChosenOne]

I'd give this post 10,000 likes if I could.
 
Not every romance arc should end in a 'happily ever after,' just as every character's arc shouldn't end in a happy ending. The odd thing about Bioware's reluctance to go that route, is that it hasn't always been the case.
 
Viconia's epilogue from Baldur's Gate is probably the best example of a romance arc that doesn't get a happy ending. And it is an ending that better fits the character and her backstory than a more fanservicey outcome that no doubt some fans wanted.
 
On that note, Mass Effect or the Dragon Age series could use the occasional LI whose romance arc either ends on a bittersweet note, or in tragedy. Storytelling should always trump fanservice.

I always do like a good tragedy :-D. Thane's romance was sad and good ( I didn't romance him but watched it on YouTube ) I hope in ME:N we'll get something like that

[Shechinah]

I was one of the people romancing Thane Krios who did not mind his death and was expecting it. My only problem with it was how he died and that they really should have made him absent certain times when you visited the hospital, like for treatments, because it created awkward situations because you had no further dialogue beside your first conversation with him.

 

In short, I'm all for romances that don't end well whether it be because of character death, betrayal or just do not work out as long as they are well-written.

[fraggle]

They already have romances that don't end thaaat well. If you play it that way

Morrigan and Alistair in DA (I guess Leliana too during Sacred Ashes quest?), Anders and Isabela can end unhappy in DA2, Fenris too. Solas in DA:I.

Then Thane in ME2/3, and you have the possibility to romance Kaidan/Ash in ME1 and then leave them to die. Or you can romance them and they can die in ME3 if you're not careful. You can take your LI with you during the beam run and they die with low EMS.

 

I agree with you guys though, I love it when there are tragic endings, and I also would love the possibility of having to really work for a romance. Like if a character doesn't agree with what you do, it could be hard to earn their trust back, and maybe it would be impossible at a certain point. I would love if they'd create complex romances that can take surprising turns, but sadly, I can't see them take this route, as for players who want these bittersweet/tragic romances, they're potentially there if you want to go this way. But many fans are romance crazy and they want their happy end. Which is fine, but a handful of more complex romances wouldn't hurt, especially if it would fit the character.

[CronoDragoon]

On that note, Mass Effect or the Dragon Age series could use the occasional LI whose romance arc either ends on a bittersweet note, or in tragedy. Storytelling should always trump fanservice.

 

This is already the case in DA: I, and it has been received quite well luckily. I'd expect more in the future, but then Dragon Age has always been a little more willing to crush happy endings to romances if the story dictates it than Mass Effect.

 

I actually think Sera's romance approaches real maturity. It can end well or not well, depending on who the Inquisitor is, the choices the Inquisitor makes, and who Sera is. It's not guaranteed happy or sad but rather depends on the playthrough. That, to me, is the fulfillment of the potential of a romance in a role-playing game.

[Han Shot First]

This is already the case in DA: I, and it has been received quite well luckily. I'd expect more in the future, but then Dragon Age has always been a little more willing to crush happy endings to romances if the story dictates it than Mass Effect.

 

I actually think Sera's romance approaches real maturity. It can end well or not well, depending on who the Inquisitor is, the choices the Inquisitor makes, and who Sera is. It's not guaranteed happy or sad but rather depends on the playthrough. That, to me, is the fulfillment of the potential of a romance in a role-playing game.

 

Solas is the only romance that doesn't get a happy ending in DA:I. Like Viconia's epilogue, I think Solas breaking it off at the end makes more sense (given the end game reveal) than that romance arc getting a happily ever after. Having said that...I hesitate to put it on the same level as Viconia's romance arc because the devs aren't finished with DA:I yet. Morrigan's romance arc in DA:O ended in a bittersweet epilogue as well, but the option for a happily ever after was later provided with the Witch Hunt DLC. 

[CronoDragoon]

Solas is the only romance that doesn't get a happy ending in DA:I. Like Viconia's epilogue, I think Solas breaking it off at the end makes more sense (given the end game reveal) than that romance arc getting a happily ever after. Having said that...I hesitate to put it on the same level as Viconia's romance arc because the devs aren't finished with DA:I yet. Morrigan's romance arc in DA:O ended in a bittersweet epilogue as well, but the option for a happily ever after was later provided with the Witch Hunt DLC. 

 

It's not a necessity to have more than one romance to have a guaranteed failed ending. If we dictate it has to be multiple, I think we're starting to get into territory where expectations are dictating the story, instead of the other way around.

 

As for Viconia, that romance does have a happy ending to me; it's just a matter of when you decide to stop telling the story of their lives.

 

There are other opportunities in DA: I for romances to end in failure, such as Sera and Blackwall, that make sense depending on the character you are role-playing. That is how I want mature romances to be handled.

 

 

That's what Josh Sawyer vs Patrick Weekes is all about, now isn't it? And I'm pretty much with Sawyer on this one, no offense meant to Weekes. Ultimately, Bioware's romances (Bioware's games, really) are very given to fanservice.

 

I'm giving you a like for the interesting Weekes posts, though I have to say I fall on Weekes' side of the particular debate linked to. I really like Avellone and Sawyer's games, but holy hell they can come off as huge douchebags sometimes.

[TheChosenOne]

Solas is the only romance that doesn't get a happy ending in DA:I. Like Viconia's epilogue, I think Solas breaking it off at the end makes more sense (given the end game reveal) than that romance arc getting a happily ever after. Having said that...I hesitate to put it on the same level as Viconia's romance arc because the devs aren't finished with DA:I yet. Morrigan's romance arc in DA:O ended in a bittersweet epilogue as well, but the option for a happily ever after was later provided with the Witch Hunt DLC.

What about Cassandra if she's elected to become the next Divine? I'm still worrying about that last dialogue on the balcony :'( DON'T LEAVE CASSANDRA! DAMN THE CHANTRY!

[Shechinah]

Sera's romance is an example of an romance that can end in a break-up because of different beliefs depending on your race. Now whether or not you feel it is well-handled is another matter, of course.

[Han Shot First]

It's not a necessity to have more than one romance to have a guaranteed failed ending. If we dictate it has to be multiple, I think we're starting to get into territory where expectations are dictating the story, instead of the other way around.

 

I agree that it isn't necessary to have more than one with an ending that isn't all sunshine & rainbows. I think I misunderstood your previous post to be saying that Sera doesn't get a happy ending. Solas is the only one where that is always true. The others (Sera, Blackwall, ect) depend on player choices.

[CronoDragoon]

I agree that it isn't necessary to have more than one with an ending that isn't all sunshine & rainbows. I think I misunderstood your previous post to be saying that Sera doesn't get a happy ending. Solas is the only one where that is always true. The others (Sera, Blackwall, ect) depend on player choices.

I probably could have differentiated better. In general my point was that guaranteed failures already exist in ME and DA to some degree (and I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to the instances increasing), but that I prefer failures that depend on player choice. I think that type of reactivity is more meaningful in an RPG. Now, certainly some players are going to rig playthroughs to avoid failures and generate happy outcomes, but those sorts of players wouldn't derive much value from guaranteed failed romances to begin with.

I do think guaranteed failures can be very powerful, though, and I'd like to see straight male romances get a little more variety in that sense.

[Gwydden]

I'll grant Dragon Age is a more daring series overall. DAI seems like a step in the right direction. What I find frustrating is how DA always seems like it went to do more, but doesn't quite have the courage to go all the way with it.

And ME... Yes, Jacob and Thane are technically "failed" romances. But they barely receive any attention, to the point that they are hard to consider as full fledged love interests. Just because he's dying anyway Thane shouldn't get less content. Just because she was dumped it doesn't mean Shepard shouldn't get closure, even if that means being able to call Jacob out on his bullshit.

And yeah, Avellone and Sawyer can be pompous dicks, no denying that xD

[CronoDragoon]

I'll grant Dragon Age is a more daring series overall. DAI seems like a step in the right direction. What I find frustrating is how DA always seems like it went to do more, but doesn't quite have the courage to go all the way with it.

I've thought along similar lines, and it's why I think the Rivalry system in DA2 was so great, because it actively encouraged you and rewarded you for not just grinding friendship points (it has its flaws though, such as the a companion feeling "meh" about you being far worse from a story content perspective than having a significant rivalry). There are many interesting scenes with Inquisition companions that players will never see, because it's difficult to get people like Solas and Cassandra to hate you enough to get them. Or having Vivienne or Sera leave. I can see why from BioWare's perspective they don't want situations where it's easy to lose companions: A LOT of writing resources goes into companion writing, and if half the playerbase doesn't see the second-half of a companion's dialogue chain, then that's a lot of wasted budget. The other edge to this sword is that interaction with companions frequently feels low-risk, as opposed to, say, Alpha Protocol's dialogues.

[Pasquale1234]

I'd imagine it's a lot easier to implement a companion / LI approval matrix in a one-game-per-protagonist format than it is a trilogy that uses the same PC through 3 games. A lot of the magic of the trilogy was based on long-term relationships and dealing with some of the same characters and companions throughout the series.

Even so, since many of the characters could die at various points, Bioware developed replacements to take on the role of those who perished. It's almost as if ME used death instead of DA's disapproval system to bring tragic endings to companions and relationships.

Imagine the complexity of importing not only who survived, but also whether their approval of Shepard is high enough to warrant interest in continuing to work with / romance Shepard into ME3. In some cases, I suppose they could give disapproval the same treatment as dead, but other cases might need different treatment - like a throwdown with certain Justicar disapproving of Shepard's actions.

[Abelas Forever!]

When the story continues throughout several games with the same PC I believe that the hardest part isn't companion's approval or how those values are imported into the next game but instead how many different ways some events can happen and how many different ways the companions can react to them and how they answer to you when you speak to them. The smaller the crew is the easier this is. Of course problems comes if there are companions who can leave or die so you should be able recruit new members and that of course increases the amount of people whose approval rate should be taken into consideration when creating events.

 

I think LIs are a big problem in a trilogy. I mean not in the first game but in sequels. First there are romances which have been started in earlier games but of course there should also be new romances such as new LIs or you could start a romance with a character who was a LI in previous games and because the romances are in a different phase then romancing the same character in different game should be different. I think this is also possible to achieve but I think it means that in the first game there should be just few LIs. The other way to do that is to cut romance specific content and concentrate on friendship paths so the frienship path and the romance path don't  differ much. Well the downside with this is that you can't really explore the romantic relationship and how it grows and what problems there might be such as the other one wants more serious relationship than the other one.

 

I don't like failing romances if it's done so that you can't do anything about it. For me it's like playing a game where you can't pass the last mission no matter what you do and there is no way to pass it. Anyway I think that your actions should have more impact on your relationship such as if you cheat then it has consequences or if you don't spend time with your LI then it has consequences or that there is a way to save your LIs life if you don't take her/him in a certain mission.

[J.Ezra]

One of the main problems for me with LI's is that they are as linear as a line graph. I understand you can only have so much interaction with NPC's but outside of actually chatting with you whom ever you are romancing and the occasional bit of party banter it's so limited. It may effect one or two dialogue's in scene's but I never noticed much else. Another thing I felt was missing was little motivation to actually talk to many of the characters. More of a personal issue I'll admit but It really bugs how some of the party members are mind meltingly boring. Sorry Kaidan, can't talk rught now, I'm busy ramming broken glass into my eyes. We can talk another time though, maybe friday when I'm done pouring bleach down my ears.

 

Ok so I'm being slightly melodramatic but I really can't get over how tedious talking to some of the LI's is. I said this a while back but It seems odd to me that characters like Miranda who have the depth of a child's play pool are thrust into the limelight(In Miranda's case it was more her backside which got thrust into the limelight. I won't let it go. Not until Bioware punches who ever made that decision in the stomach for every scene where Miranda has her bum hanging out.) 

 

Anyway, I really hope the new game has some interesting romances. Even if they end on a sad note or in betrayal. I prefer the first as it means I feel some form of emotion other then boredom.

[BraveVesperia]

They already have romances that don't end thaaat well. If you play it that way

Morrigan and Alistair in DA (I guess Leliana too during Sacred Ashes quest?), Anders and Isabela can end unhappy in DA2, Fenris too. Solas in DA:I.

Then Thane in ME2/3, and you have the possibility to romance Kaidan/Ash in ME1 and then leave them to die. Or you can romance them and they can die in ME3 if you're not careful. You can take your LI with you during the beam run and they die with low EMS.

 

I agree with you guys though, I love it when there are tragic endings, and I also would love the possibility of having to really work for a romance. Like if a character doesn't agree with what you do, it could be hard to earn their trust back, and maybe it would be impossible at a certain point. I would love if they'd create complex romances that can take surprising turns, but sadly, I can't see them take this route, as for players who want these bittersweet/tragic romances, they're potentially there if you want to go this way. But many fans are romance crazy and they want their happy end. Which is fine, but a handful of more complex romances wouldn't hurt, especially if it would fit the character.

Agreed!

Lots of them are tragic no matter what you do:

-Thane always dies

-Jacob always cheats and dumps you

-Samara will always turn you down after the brief romantic conversations

-Anders always does the thing at the end of DA2, and prior to that is an emotional rollercoaster

-Blackwall has dark secrets that come to light during the romance

-Morrigan always leaves (though she comes back)

-Alistair's romance can end in him dumping you (and if he's king, a non human can only become his mistress, not marry him). However no matter what you choose, either one of you will die or he must father a child with another woman (who he hates)

-Solas will always leave, plus other reasons

 

Some are tragic depending on your choices:

-Any ME2 romance can be killed during the suicide mission

-Tali can die again in ME3. As can any other you don't go and rescue (such as Jack)

-Kaidan/Ashley can be killed during the Citadel coup

-If you choose Control/Synthesis, Shepard seems to have died

-If you don't follow Morrigan through the Eluvian

-You can kill Leliana and Zevran (Leliana's personality can also take a turn for the very dark in DAI)

-You can kill Fenris, Merrill, Anders

-You can betray Fenris and Isabela

-Isabela can leave you

-Sebastian will leave if you don't kill Anders

-The resolution of Blackwall's romance, after learning his secrets

-Iron Bull may return to the Qun

-Cassandra may return to the Chantry

-Sera's romance will be turbulent if you're an elf, and may result in her breaking up with you

 

I do enjoy having to work for it with the romances, and sometimes enjoy a tragic story. But I don't think they're entirely sadness-free at the moment! Especially compared to say, Jade Empire - where your LI will completely switch morals to suit you and completely conform to your whims (especially if you play a male protag trying to get with the two female LIs).

[fraggle]

Haha, oh yes, there's really a lot that can go wrong.

I completely forgot about Alistair dumping you!

 

It's funny because when I'm able to have a happy end, I will have it. There are some things I could never ever do just to experience what it's like (like giving Fenris back to Danarius or killing Kaidan on either Virmire or during the coup, it's just... wrong to me ). But something like having the choice made for me is something I'll gladly take!

For DAI I'm actually trying to do Solas' romance next time, even though I could also end up with Cullen, haha.

 

I don't want every LI to be a complex/difficult relationship progress, as that would be really unfair if it's too many, but let's say 1 or 2 romance options with really tough choices to keep him/her by your side would be great imo.

[Abelas Forever!]

@BraveVesperia

 

In addition what you said. Spoilers for DAI.

 

Spoiler

If Alistair is a warden then you will have to choose between him and your Hawke in Adamant so depending on their romance status it seems that either one of the romances will end.

[mrjack]

-Any ME2 romance can be killed during the suicide mission

 

Actually this is not true. A romanced Miranda cannot die in the SM. You can't kill her off as a specialist (as she is "needed" to explain the whole proceedings) and as she has to be loyal to be romanced, she will survive during "Hold the Line" (even if left alone) and if you take her to fight the Human-Reaper.

 

I actually tried to do this once during a straight playthrough where Ashley would berate Shep for being with someone else in ME2 and Shep could then berate her right back for being heartless about someone who had died to save countless lives from the Collectors/Reapers.

 

When I discovered that she was unkillable, I was gonna go back and romance Jack but I couldn't be bothered so I never did find out what Ashley (or Shep) would have said in this situation.

[DirkJake]

Spoiler

Agreed!

Lots of them are tragic no matter what you do:

-Thane always dies

-Jacob always cheats and dumps you

-Samara will always turn you down after the brief romantic conversations

-Anders always does the thing at the end of DA2, and prior to that is an emotional rollercoaster

-Blackwall has dark secrets that come to light during the romance

-Morrigan always leaves (though she comes back)

-Alistair's romance can end in him dumping you (and if he's king, a non human can only become his mistress, not marry him). However no matter what you choose, either one of you will die or he must father a child with another woman (who he hates)

-Solas will always leave, plus other reasons

 

Some are tragic depending on your choices:

-Any ME2 romance can be killed during the suicide mission

-Tali can die again in ME3. As can any other you don't go and rescue (such as Jack)

-Kaidan/Ashley can be killed during the Citadel coup

-If you choose Control/Synthesis, Shepard seems to have died

-If you don't follow Morrigan through the Eluvian

-You can kill Leliana and Zevran (Leliana's personality can also take a turn for the very dark in DAI)

-You can kill Fenris, Merrill, Anders

-You can betray Fenris and Isabela

-Isabela can leave you

-Sebastian will leave if you don't kill Anders

-The resolution of Blackwall's romance, after learning his secrets

-Iron Bull may return to the Qun

-Cassandra may return to the Chantry

-Sera's romance will be turbulent if you're an elf, and may result in her breaking up with you

 

I do enjoy having to work for it with the romances, and sometimes enjoy a tragic story. But I don't think they're entirely sadness-free at the moment! Especially compared to say, Jade Empire - where your LI will completely switch morals to suit you and completely conform to your whims (especially if you play a male protag trying to get with the two female LIs).

 

Yes to these. DA series and, in a lesser degree, ME series do have bad ends in their romance.

 

And adding to the list, Cullen will break up with you if you tell him to take Lyrium.

[BabyPuncher]

I mean, that doesn't even make sense. Why would my "masturbatory fantasy" be full of death, loneliness and tragedy?

 

It's really quite simple. Because it invites the reader to share in an illusion of competence.

 

The primary theme, if you could call it that, behind these sorts of stories, is crowning themselves 'realistic' and 'competent' for having moral characters generally be failures. They're not interested in just being tragic, they purport to be tragic and smart because of it. And when the reader smiles and nods along to that theme, they get to think themselves smart as well for doing so.

 

They get to pretend to understand the world for what it 'really is.' They get to pretend to be enlightened philosophers who not only acknowledge the 'brutality' and 'violence' and 'unfairness,' of life, but are able to and willing to play 'The Game.' They get to pretend to be one of the few strong willed and 'pragmatic' enough to face 'reality' and get ahead in a brutal, unfair world.

 

All of this from the air-conditioned comfort of their couch, of course.

 

This whole process is, above everything and all else, temporary. When the story is over, these 'convictions' must promptly be packed away in a box. They have no place in actual reality, obviously. The illusion fades. The reader returns to the real world, returns to being a person about a thousandfold more likely to whimper about the meanies and bullies of the world than to even face actual brutality, let alone respond to it in any sort of capable manner. Don't they now?

 

What is all this if not a masturbatory fantasy indulgence? It fits the mold like a glove. A story built upon what is very clearly pretend ideals, pretend convictions, and pretend competences, which attains success largely by stroking the ego of reader and allowing them to pretend to possess qualities they clearly do not?

[BabyPuncher]

Second, I don't consume speculative fiction to experience the exact same things I do in real life. Shocking, I know.

 

Oh, of course. Absolutely. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. I've certainly enjoyed my fair share of fiction that involves mowing down civilians with a machine gun or something of the sort. As Mr. Weekes said, there's nothing at all wrong with indulgent fantasy. I completely approve of people enjoying and spending time with this sort of thing.

 

The only stipulation is to not go claiming these make-believe convictions are profound statements on 'reality' or 'intelligence.'

 

Which, you would think wouldn't be a problem considering that essentially everyone will admit (contemptuously, gritting their teeth the whole way as you pry it out of them) this sort of thing is nothing like 'real life.' 

 

But apparently that's too much to ask out of a great deal of people.

[BraveVesperia]

Haha, oh yes, there's really a lot that can go wrong.

I completely forgot about Alistair dumping you!

 

It's funny because when I'm able to have a happy end, I will have it. There are some things I could never ever do just to experience what it's like (like giving Fenris back to Danarius or killing Kaidan on either Virmire or during the coup, it's just... wrong to me ). But something like having the choice made for me is something I'll gladly take!

For DAI I'm actually trying to do Solas' romance next time, even though I could also end up with Cullen, haha.

 

I don't want every LI to be a complex/difficult relationship progress, as that would be really unfair if it's too many, but let's say 1 or 2 romance options with really tough choices to keep him/her by your side would be great imo.

I think DAI did that pretty well, since quite a few can be sad, but you can avoid it if you're careful. The only one that definitely has a sad ending is Solas' romance. I  recommend it, even if it leaves you as a quivering mass of sad goo by the end! 

[Abelas Forever!]

Actually this is not true. A romanced Miranda cannot die in the SM. You can't kill her off as a specialist (as she is "needed" to explain the whole proceedings) and as she has to be loyal to be romanced, she will survive during "Hold the Line" (even if left alone) and if you take her to fight the Human-Reaper.

 

I actually tried to do this once during a straight playthrough where Ashley would berate Shep for being with someone else in ME2 and Shep could then berate her right back for being heartless about someone who had died to save countless lives from the Collectors/Reapers.

 

When I discovered that she was unkillable, I was gonna go back and romance Jack but I couldn't be bothered so I never did find out what Ashley (or Shep) would have said in this situation.

Really? Well I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I mean quite often when there is a situation where something bad can happen to a female LI then you have multiple ways to deal with that situation. One good example would be Tali and the quarian geth conflict. You can save her by choosing quarians over geth or you can make peace between them. That is one reason why I'm quite frustrated about the tragic romances. If there is going to be a tragic romance then it's a romance where the other side is most likely a male LI. I don't mind if there are tough decisions and I would say that DR in DAO was quite tough one. Well the decision wasn't tough but the consequances of if were but the consequances of not doing it would have been even worse. Anyway I don't like that I can't do anything about the tragedy like with Jacob and Thane.