128 réponses à ce sujet

[Brogan]

Yes, the KBM Tac Cam does not allow jumping
Allan Schumacher said that being able to play the entire game in Tac Cam was a design goal, but they couldn't solve all the problems they needed to and had to cut the feature. I expect the difficulty arose from the Tac Cam being tied to an invisible character (which seems like a really clumsy workaround to me).

Are there any other Frostbite games that involve controlling multiple characters simultaneously?

 

I think the issue here is that even at launch, Bioware had no clue how much of this console-inspired PC UI was going to have to be changed due to user outrage.  Like they were waiting to see how much they could get away with.

 

Sylvius, I remember when Allan was here that night.  He PM'd me a few times over the course of the conversation, but remember what his comments were when he was discussing the pathfinding and if the click-to-move, auto-attack, auto-loot, etc, can be done in Action Cam:

 

The Nav Mesh is still there and the pathfinding still works while in action cam (your followers and other entities still pathfind) so from that aspect point and click movement is possible.  There will be some edge cases that may need to be resolved, such as when you move to a tricky position via WASD/jumping, and then try to issue a move where the pathfinding system isn't properly set up.  Off the top of my head we could just do nothing (can't pathfind, so don't move) which may be confusing.  If it ends up requiring some form of feedback to let the player know or alterations to the nav mesh, then potential knock on costs/effects can start to branch and will also need to be assessed.  Though the messaging may exist in patch notes so no in game work is needed to support it as well.  Things like that.

 

Also,

 

It can be yes. Sometimes you're okay with edge cases being unsupported and/or communicated in a low cost way too, though.  So while it may be more involved to have a flashing GUI with localized text string pop up saying "Pathfinding not found" or something, maybe we communicate it in a way via patch notes "we've added this thing, note that if it doesn't work in these conditions here's why" might be a "good enough" for most. 

 

So we wouldn't necessarily be handcuffed, just trying to illustrate how the process may go and some of the things we end up considering.

 

What he talked about sounded very much like the pre-discussions of a large scale overhaul of this change from having a Tac Cam separate from the Action Cam.  Now, whether that is in fact what they've been working on for over a month, I seriously doubt it.  But it's obvious that they are taking a look at the possibilities.  Which is why when you say, "I have auto-attack. What are you talking about?", it kind of defeats the initiative. Your workaround shouldn't be necessary.

 

Because like I've been saying since August, Tac Cam should have been a console only feature.

[Chaos17]

Auto attack in DA:O wasnt anything special. Particularly for mages, in fact it was Boring

Spaming or holding the button is better ?... /ok

[Lee T]

Yes, the KBM Tac Cam does not allow jumping
Allan Schumacher said that being able to play the entire game in Tac Cam was a design goal, but they couldn't solve all the problems they needed to and had to cut the feature. I expect the difficulty arose from the Tac Cam being tied to an invisible character (which seems like a really clumsy workaround to me).

I suppose it 's the fastest workaround they could come up with. There is no way to know how much working with frostbite impacted their developpment cycle.

Are there any other Frostbite games that involve controlling multiple characters simultaneously?

Note as far as I know. So far there's DICE games, Bioware games, the last Need For Speed, Plants vs Zombies and the EA Sport PGA game. I suppose the overhead view of the Battlefield Commander Mode didn't help.

[Razir-Samus]

Spaming or holding the button is better ?... /ok

no it's not... autoattack was better because you'd always get pushed into the correct range, as opposed to this quasi-hack n slash attack method where even if your weapon visibly hits a mob (be it basic attack or an ability), you can miss it entirely because of how the hits register at different ranges

 

plus you could leave your char and his tactics to slog it out without worrying about it being deadweight and just stop acting altogether

[Lee T]

Spaming or holding the button is better ?... /ok

Yep, for some auto-attack is boring and hinders immersion for other no auto-attack is boring and hinders immersion. Which is probably why Bioware keeps flip flopping on the issue. They should add a setting toggle in the menu and everybody would be happy.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Because like I've been saying since August, Tac Cam should have been a console only feature.

I really like how the Tac Cam works with KBM. I think Action Mode is horrendous, and I really only use it when I need to jump.

If anything should have been console only, I'd say it should be Action Mode. Because I'm not willing to give up the free-roaming camera. It's invaluable for scouting ahead, particularly around corners when indoors.

[Sylvius the Mad]

And I'm not willing to give up WASD

Sucks to be me.

I can see the value of WASD outside of combat, but in combat it's irredeemably awful. It makes combat work like KotOR, where it's not possible to give simultaneous movement commands.

Movement commands in combat should all be move-to-point.

[darkizzle]

Been stupefied since day 1 that they didn't include this feature. This is 2014 right? And till this day I still click on NPC's and loot, subconsciously expecting the characters to move to position...only to be momentarily confused when they just stand there. I don't get it. 

 

I don't care that this is included in Tac Cam. I don't want to play the entire game in Tac Cam. Its boring and kind of useless to me anyway. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't understand the need for movement commands in tactics.

What if you want multiple characters to move in specific ways? Say, you're being attacked in a room with a raised platform. You could send an archer and mage to the higher ground, while sending a warrior to the far side of the room to draw the attackers' attention, allowing the ranged characters to get flanking bonuses and attack from high ground at the same time.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think the issue here is that even at launch, Bioware had no clue how much of this console-inspired PC UI was going to have to be changed due to user outrage.

What user outrage. The PC UI, particularly in the run of play, is fine.

The menus suck, but BioWare's been making progressively worse menus for a dozen years now.

Exploration works. Combat works. What's the cause for the outrage?

[Sylvius the Mad]

That's their job to do. if it can't be coded into tactics, I don't want to do it.

(fun fact, that could actually be coded in tactics)

Wait, what?

Do you not play the whole party?

[DJKalteraphine]

Auto-attack, please!

 

Mouse click to move,loot,attack,interact, please!

 

Select entire party, please!

 

Rebind mouse keys, please!

 

 

Agreed on all counts. Please pay attention to this thread, BW!

[Sylvius the Mad]

No, I do not, unless I have to. I've always been of the opinion that the more I can program ahead of time, the better. Recall all of my comments about enabled tactics for controlled characters.

 

Combat interests me, but I have little desire to engage with it myself, in "real time" (real time meaning at the time of the battle, not non-pause).

Okay, I'll grant that would be awesome.  But lacking that, I think Tac Cam more closely meets that target than real-time single-character control (WASD) does.

 

If I could control no characters at all, that would be great.  But I can't do that, so I want to control all of them.

[Brogan]

How much have they actually changed? Have they changed any?

 

None really.  Likely in the next patch.  My point was they had planned to address the pc controls before the first patch, hence the official blog entry.  It's a total unknown however because they have not communicated with the public about it at all, which is what's driving the outrage from pc players.  Nobody knows how much they will change, and how much to trust the modders to address.  It's a nightmare for anyone who's not yet played/finished the game.

 

 

What user outrage. The PC UI, particularly in the run of play, is fine.

The menus suck, but BioWare's been making progressively worse menus for a dozen years now.

Exploration works. Combat works. What's the cause for the outrage?

 

I know you've said many times how particular you are about RPGs, but I just don't understand how you can be happy with and settle for the game as it currently stands.  It's a free country, but like I said your workaround (of never using action cam) should not be necessary.  The mouse and keyboard version is terribly ported, and clearly programmed by ex-console personnel with 0 awareness of even Origins/DA2 on pc concepts.  And however sure you are the game "works fine", you are absolutely in the minority of pc users who feel that way (or play that way).  You or others may not believe that's the case, but it is.  And I'm sure you are fine with this.  But take a wander into the PC thread Darrah started if you truly are not aware of the "outrage".  It hasn't gotten any better in there since everyone realized those fears we had with the pc version back in August ended up being realized. 

 

Like I said above, we have no idea to what extent they end up changing these controls in the next patch.  Nobody knows anything at this point.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I know you've said many times how particular you are about RPGs, but I just don't understand how you can be happy with and settle for the game as it currently stands.  It's a free country, but like I said your workaround (of never using action cam) should not be necessary.

It's not a workaround.  It's how I want to play.  I've resisted WASD movement since BioWare first introduced it in NWN.  I couldn't stand it in KotOR (movement was the worst part of that game).  I clicked to move in DAO.

 

The Tac Cam does what I want the game to do (mostly - move-to-interact would be nice, but I doubt DAI's pathfinding could handle it).  I can move the camera freely and point&click to issue commands.  Just like BG.  Just like DAO (but with better camera control).

 

The other games' failings were partly that they didn't do it like DAI does it.  I specifically requested this camera mode (I cited Total War as something to emulate, and this is very nearly exactly like Total War).

 

Essentially, all I'm doing is making the entry to and exit from combat mode manual (because I'm switching camera modes), but that again is something I've specifically asked for in the past.  I hated that combat started and finished of its own accord in the other games.  I should get to decide whether I'm in combat, and in DAI I can.  I can initiate combat (something DA2 never allowed), and I can flee combat (something no BioWare game in over a decade has allowed).

Like I said above, we have no idea to what extent they end up changing these controls in the next patch.

Any and all changes should be optional.  If they ruin Tac Cam, I'm going to be extremely angry.

[AlanC9]

I know you've said many times how particular you are about RPGs, but I just don't understand how you can be happy with and settle for the game as it currently stands.  It's a free country, but like I said your workaround (of never using action cam) should not be necessary. 

I don't think "workaround" is the right concept there. Sylvius isn't avoiding the action cam because the action cam has problems, he's avoiding the action cam because he doesn't like action. It's like how I'm not working around hypothetical MP deficiencies by never playing MP, I'm just not playing MP because I'm not interested in MP.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think we're talking about two different things simultaneously (there's a joke in there somewhere about assuming direct control). I'd agree that the Tac Cam better approximates the issue of combat control, though I'd disagree that controlling all characters is the next best solution to controlling none (controlling one and setting up a party to run without your controlled character would be the next best solution as I understand it).

If I'm making decisions on the fly, I want to be able to change the plan to suit the situation.  That means I have to control everyone.

 

If I'm not able to change the plan, I'd rather just let it run without me doing anything.  Let me watch how it unfolds so I can refine the tactical instructions for next time.

 

If I'm controlling one character, I find it harder to keep track of what everyone is doing.  And if I'm controlling all the characters, I don't need to keep track of what they're doing because I did it all.