23 réponses à ce sujet

[Kage]

The game is awesome, but if I had to choose 1 feedback it would be that characters were too optional and independent in this game.

I am talking about Blackwall, Iron Bull, Sera, Varric, Cole, Dorian and Vivienne. Those characters were awesome, I love them all (or love to hate them), very well written and still the biggest asset of Bioware, why their games will always go on being a success.

 

However, only Cassandra and Solas have some relevance in the game's story, some connection to the main quest develpment.

 

This creates a situation were the game's content (in a plot-story point of view) is split into:

- Main quest

- Inner circle quests

 

I really did not like that, because I ended up seeing in 3 playthroughs that it does not matter who you bring to the different main quests, since they dont have additional content. If you are not doing a Inner Circle quest, you can expect that character will not have any relevance nor interaction nor importance at all about what you are doing. There are some super minor exceptions, in 3 playthroughs I could count them with one hand, but usually the characters only interact through banter. If you dont talk to them in Skyhold, you might not even see their face in animated dialogue, even if you bring them all the time.

 

And this is also the reason why the Main Quest seems so short, because all those characters do not add to it.

 

Then I thought, why is this possible, when in other DA's all characters were much more present?

And I think the reason is development time, and the characters being too optional. You can skip enterily almost every companion, even if 95% of them are always recruited.

 

I think it would be better if companions were less optional. Force us to recruit them, and add them to the main story. Use them to interact with what is happening. It is ok to force us to bring 1 specific companion to a specific main quest, and that will give you opportunity to create more interactions with that character, and develop it further.

 

And also, it is not neccessary to have so many characters to develop. I am impressed by DAI's sheer amount of characters (12!!), but as the result, I feel more connected to Cullen than to Vivienne+Blackwall+Cole+IronBull+Sera all together. Cullen was never in my party, those were in my party, and still Cullen had more dialogue, cinematics, interactions and even development, than the rest combined. (I love Cullen, not complaining on that)

 

So yeah, I would say that in DA4 I would prefer to see the characters more connected to what is happening, like the Advisors, and not so optional. And with less characters, so we can have more content for all of them. 12 characters were too much to develop.

 

(I was kind of disapointed by Cole, so interesting character, not developed at all. It felt super rushed.)

[FragCzar]

It's as if BW designed their romance options first and then built a game around them.  It's a shame that you only get three companions for the final anti-climactic battle.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Every companion was optional in DAO (Except the Warden companion and, for a small time, Oghren) and 3/9 companions were optional in DA2. I like it when they're optional, it means I'm not forced to hang around companions that are ****** annoying. I wish the ME series had optional companion so I could give Liara the boot.

[Dai Grepher]

Not sure what you're talking about. I took Cassandra, Vivienne, and Blackwall to the Orlesian Ball. And each of them had dialogue and opinions about the mission. Vivienne could have had more, being a veteran player of the Game after all, but hers was adequate.

 

I wish the three of them could have been presented with the Inquisitor. I pictured Vivienne in her trademark over the top outfit and hat, and Blackwall in full Grey Warden armor. But instead they were all in the red uniforms. Oh well.

 

Blackwall can be found in the Hall of Heroes looking at the monuments to the Grey Wardens who ended the Fifth Blight. A noble talks to him and says he thinks he knows him from somewhere. Vivienne also had Game related dialog and advice. So I think they fit that mission well. I'm sure the mission involving the Grey Wardens will include Blackwall as well.

 

My rationale for taking them was that they each present a strong showing. Cass is a princess, technically, and Right Hand. With Leliana they represent both Hands of the Divine. Vivienne is the grand whatever of the court, and an ally to Celene, so that makes sense. Blackwall is a Grey Warden and Commander of the Grey. Which is a prestigious and intimidating position. He even makes the Chevaliers look dull by comparison. Plus, that was the party I used to slay the Fereldan Frostback. So their rep followed them into the event as well (in head canon anyway).

 

Sera and Varric would embarrass the Inquisition, Iron Bull would not fit in and would be uncomfortable, Dorian is Tevinter, Solas is an elf (as is Sera) and has no real title, and... there was one more. I forget who it was, and though I'm sure he wouldn't have raised any concern and may have even been able to read some minds, it wasn't that crucial.

 

So maybe it's just a matter of who you pick for what mission.

 

My only problem is with characters making comments about missions they weren't a part of. Like Iron Bull drinking to the Fereldan Frostback he never helped kill but think he did. Which isn't an issue for me since my mage doesn't drink alcohol and turns Bull down before he can say his lines. But still. What's that all about?

 

Also, I took Varric to Theirinfall Redoubt and he had plenty of lines about red lyrium. So, again, not sure what you mean by this.

[whitless256]

Not sure what you're talking about. I took Cassandra, Vivienne, and Blackwall to the Orlesian Ball. And each of them had dialogue and opinions about the mission. Vivienne could have had more, being a veteran player of the Game after all, but hers was adequate.

 

I wish the three of them could have been presented with the Inquisitor. I pictured Vivienne in her trademark over the top outfit and hat, and Blackwall in full Grey Warden armor. But instead they were all in the red uniforms. Oh well.

 

Blackwall can be found in the Hall of Heroes looking at the monuments to the Grey Wardens who ended the Fifth Blight. A noble talks to him and says he thinks he knows him from somewhere. Vivienne also had Game related dialog and advice. So I think they fit that mission well. I'm sure the mission involving the Grey Wardens will include Blackwall as well.

 

My rationale for taking them was that they each present a strong showing. Cass is a princess, technically, and Right Hand. With Leliana they represent both Hands of the Divine. Vivienne is the grand whatever of the court, and an ally to Celene, so that makes sense. Blackwall is a Grey Warden and Commander of the Grey. Which is a prestigious and intimidating position. He even makes the Chevaliers look dull by comparison. Plus, that was the party I used to slay the Fereldan Frostback. So their rep followed them into the event as well (in head canon anyway).

 

Sera and Varric would embarrass the Inquisition, Iron Bull would not fit in and would be uncomfortable, Dorian is Tevinter, Solas is an elf (as is Sera) and has no real title, and... there was one more. I forget who it was, and though I'm sure he wouldn't have raised any concern and may have even been able to read some minds, it wasn't that crucial.

 

So maybe it's just a matter of who you pick for what mission.

 

My only problem is with characters making comments about missions they weren't a part of. Like Iron Bull drinking to the Fereldan Frostback he never helped kill but think he did. Which isn't an issue for me since my mage doesn't drink alcohol and turns Bull down before he can say his lines. But still. What's that all about?

 

Also, I took Varric to Theirinfall Redoubt and he had plenty of lines about red lyrium. So, again, not sure what you mean by this.

 

I think the OP's point is not that they don't have dialogue, but that their presence has no bearing on what happens in the story.  To use your example, your reasoning behind who you brought to the Winter Palace was very sound.  But I've brought a party of Solas, Sera, and Cassandra and nothing negative happened.  No drop in court approval for Sera's bad behavior (she actually had some really keen insights to share).  I didn't get a drop in approval for bringing Iron Bull and having him eat all the candied nuts.  Similarly, I got no boost in approval for bringing Celene's court enchanter or a member of the royal family of Nevarra.  Those things would have been a nice touch.

 

Also, the dialogue you mention that happens at Halamshiral isn't cut scene dialogue, which is what the OP was referring to. 

 

Now I don't think this is a huge departure from other games, though.  Even when companions participated more in the cut scenes, in the end they didn't really have much of an impact.  But it was nice to see them involved in the story.   I would have liked more moments like in the Temple of Mythal where you could say "hey guys, what do you think I should do?"  The most you really get are instances where having a particular companion can help you recruit an agent or.... well, recruiting agents is the only time I remember getting help from my party.

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Ugh talk about the wrong thread

[Dai Grepher]

Oh. Well in that case, I agree. I didn't understand what the OP was saying. Thanks.

 

So in that case I agree that taking certain people should make a difference. Though, I guess we could always leave that to imagination. The companion character were at least announced after all. Maybe having approval drops for those characters would have made the mission too difficult to win.

[whitless256]

Oh. Well in that case, I agree. I didn't understand what the OP was saying. Thanks.

 

So in that case I agree that taking certain people should make a difference. Though, I guess we could always leave that to imagination. The companion character were at least announced after all. Maybe having approval drops for those characters would have made the mission too difficult to win.

 

Honestly, after Sera had them announce her as "Maya Balsitch of Korse" I was expecting my court approval to drop like a rock.  Apparently Orlesian nobles don't understand dirty jokes...

[Pauravi]

The title of this thread made me chuckle a bit, because BioWare is always being criticized by a certain subset of fans who don't like X Y or Z character and wish they could leave behind anyone they wanted, so making characters "less optional" would probably make some people shriek.  Perhaps that criticism swayed them to go this route?  I'm not sure.

 

I do agree, though -- I like when characters are more integrated.  Even if they don't alter the story in any major way, it's nice when different characters have different interjections or opinions that they weigh in with on quests, even minor ones.  I do miss that a bit in DA:I.  Sometimes I'll finish part of a quest or interact with an NPC and think, "Hmm, I bet Solas / Iron Bull / Cassandra might have something interesting to say about that", so I'll come back with them before I have the conversation... but it seems like 99% of the time nothing different happens.

 

It's a nice-to-have.  It doesn't ruin the game or anything to not have more companion commentary during quests, but since it is so prevalent in other BioWare games the absence is a bit conspicuous.

[Xhaiden]

I am all for moar story content and do support that endeavour. But making characters less "optional" or forcing the player to bring a specific character/party ( Which has classically always been one of the most aggravating moment of every old school RPG ala Final Fantasy ) isn't the route to go. Plus part of your problem is actually game mechanics.

 

- There are 9 party members partially because there are 3 x 3 class/specialization combinations. This gives you the chance to try out these specializations before making a desicion yourself as well as utilize all specs even if you did not personally choose them by bringing the appropriate character.

 

- Players will always settle into a pattern of perferred characters either for playstyle or for personal perference. Its human nature. Bioware has done a decent job of trying to break us of this habit without stepping on our toes in DA:I. But its still a habit.

 

- Speaking of that habit: Being forced to take a specific character(s) may mean a disruption to that playstyle or perference and busywork in equipping and specing that character just for one quest. Bioware has minimized this a far amount by making the characters pretty optional/modular but people still have their tastes and tolerences.

 

From a story standpoint not every character can be equally "important" to the story. Not only would it not be realistic but it would also be uninteresting. Each character is helping the Inquisitor based on their own motivations and desires thus leading to a diverse and interesting cast who have different perspectives on the events of the game. Cassandra is not "more important" to the story, she is just more personally invested in the events of the plot set up and thus her central motivation revolves more around that goal. Sera on the other hand couldn't really give two shits because its not what's important to her.

 

To use an analog: You wouldn't say Ashley or Kaidan is more important to the story of ME just because they're more immediately involved as fellow members of the military who directly witnessed the early events of the story.

 

That said, I am all for having equal amounts of character input on events. But thats a different dilemma from characters being more or less important to the main story. Ideally, all characters would offer an equal amount of dialogue/scene input during scenes that call for other characters to inject or be part of the scene with each character having a few things in particular that are "special" or relevant to them personally. Such as mages reacting to Vivienne's presence or Chantry sisters reacting to Cassandra's presence or Iron Bull getting a raging Qunboner anywhere near a dragon.

 

But this is a matter of content more than one of writing.

[whitless256]

 or Iron Bull getting a raging Qunboner anywhere near a dragon.

 

 

 

The rest of your post was excellent, but I felt the need to point out the particular fantasticness of this little phrase.  

[Amirit]

The more I play DAI the more I think DA2 was a ingeniously designed story\companions\gameplay-wise. For example that particular topic. In DA2 you did not have any obligatory companions, but (!) if you did not have Anders during your Deep Road expedition - you could not save your sibling. This is involvement. And companions had a lot to say (and to add) to the quests scenes (that all were animated with cut-scenes, not a la skyrim "standing around"). Different companions had different reaction and comments in different situations.

 

Sure, all companions were grounded at their houses and you could not talk to them outside their quests. One would think the logical step would be to remove that particular limitation but leave the beneficial one - involvement in to the quests around. Guess, BW did not have resources to do just that and after DAO it can be only either\or, not both options.   

[Xhaiden]

For all the flak DAII got, the companions were definately not the probem. I almost wish more than one returned as a companion in DA:I just to give them a game they deserved. >.>

[Lee T]

This is unfortunately nothing new for Bioware.

Spoiler for ME2 below.

Spoiler

One of my biggest disapointment in one of their games was in Mass Effect 2. for those who do not know one of the speices in the ME's universe, the Krogans, is on the verge of extinction because of an engineered virus made by another species during a war, the Salarians.

In ME2 there is a companion quest with a Salarian scientific. That quest centers around that virus, and among other things you learn that the virus still works because they actually maintain and update it regularly.

Guessing that this quest would be very relevant to that virus I choose to take with me another companion who is actually part of the species stricken by the virus, eager to see his reactions.

And guess what ? No reactions at all. We're witness to the revelation that the Krogan have not only been targetted by a virus pushing them to the brink of extinction but the Salarians have actively worked to make that virus better at his job for centuries, and the Krogan companion was just standing there, silent.

As far as I'm concerned that completely ruined the immersion.

I suppose that having every character have specific dialogs or interjections in every quest is unfortunately too much nowadays. That's the downside of technology, recorded dialogs and animations costs a lot of money and work hours. So it makes sense that they try do minimise efforts going into things only a part of the players will see. This logic kinda doesn't work though because the more optionall the companions the more chance there is that people won't use them at all.

It would be nice if ar least one or two characters had clear link parts of the main quest and the bigger side quests and had relevant dialog/interjections options.

This would make us feel part of a reactive living universe (even if it's just an illusion) and it would bring more depth to the companions.

[schall_und_rauch]

While there were also optional companions in other DA games, all of the other games have a certain "mandatory time" for all companions once you recruited them. In DA:O, you fight with them in the battle of Denerim. In DA2, you speak to them in the courtyard before the battle. In ME2, they are part of a vital team for the Suicide mission -- this is the best integration of the team so far.

In DA:I, you call at one point Corypheus, he drops by, you battle in some unknown castle in the sky with your 3 best buddies, and that's it. There is no "we stand together united" moment. The picture of everybody at the war table forming the inquisition never happens.
I attribute this to a rushed ending. My head canon is that the final battle of DA:I happens in inquisition where everybody has to play a role -- but it was scrapped because they ran out of time.

Oh, and I think the role of Sera and Blackwall is not well integrated into the game. They neither flesh out the main story nor the lore of the game. Nothing outside their personal quest, their romance or their specializations would've been different if they had been omitted.

[Gambit458]

I kind of get what you're saying. In the previous games they were involved in the main stories sometimes. For ex, Wynne and the Circle Tower, Ogrhen and the search for Branka, Isabella and the Qunari, Anders and the Chantry, and so on. In Inquisition, there doesn't feel like there's very many points in the story where they feel relevant. Dorian and Cole have a part in whether you pick mages or templars for ex, but past that..not many

[snackrat]

Unfortunately they have to be that way. They can't afford to make them too relevant because it is optional as to whether or not you actually wanted them.

Can you imagine the forum reaction of those who told Sera/Vivienne/Cole to rack off only to have them flit back in on a cloud of plot MacGuffin?

[schall_und_rauch]

Unfortunately they have to be that way. They can't afford to make them too relevant because it is optional as to whether or not you actually wanted them.

The same is true in DA:O. You can lose Wrynne, Sten, Oghren, Leiliana, Zevran. However, in the end, if you have them, they help you inthe final assault. Same for DA II.

In DA:I, there's a good chance that additional patty members just rot in Skyhold once you've found your prefered party.

[Kantr]

Newsflash OP this is how it's always been in bioware games

[Liveshiptrader]

Newsflash OP this is how it's always been in bioware games

 

That's not true, taking certain characters on specific quests could have an impact or new scenes, Morrigan in the Mage Tower, Sten in the Sacred ashes quest.

 

Unrealistic to expect too much but this stood out for me in DAI when I brought Vivienne to the Winter Palace.

[Kantr]

That's not true, taking certain characters on specific quests could have an impact or new scenes, Morrigan in the Mage Tower, Sten in the Sacred ashes quest.

 

Unrealistic to expect too much but this stood out for me in DAI when I brought Vivienne to the Winter Palace.

Oh, What happens with Sten at the sacred ashes? Aside from what the spirit says to him? Oghren has dialogue about the place

[Farangbaa]

Woops, totally misread.

Ignore

[Sidney]

I think they spread them selves too thin in terms of number of allies - plus of course the 3 advisors all have their own stuff as well - but I always prefer depth to breadth.

There is also interesting stuff. Take Solas or Dorian on Bull's mission, I just did this so it is top of mind. Doran comments on the Still Ruins. Is it big no. Does it change anything, no but most of the flavor is from character showing who they are not changing the game.

I don't know that I want to have to use any of them. They are optional and that is a strength. I can stuff Cole in a box and ignore him if I either don't need what he does or don't like his character. My archer never wheeled Sera or Varric out of their rooms because I don't want or need 2 archers. It would be nice if Viv really helped at court or Sera was a killer but then you'd have people griping about being "forced" to take certain parties to certain places.

[Kage]

Not sure what you're talking about. I took Cassandra, Vivienne, and Blackwall to the Orlesian Ball. And each of them had dialogue and opinions about the mission. Vivienne could have had more, being a veteran player of the Game after all, but hers was adequate.

 

Also, I took Varric to Theirinfall Redoubt and he had plenty of lines about red lyrium. So, again, not sure what you mean by this.

 

The point is, it seems each character has very little comments in the main story at all. You just managed to think, and bring whoever you thought was going to say something.

I played 2 walthroughs with 3 companions each, always the same ones, to every quest, and the result is that I felt they did not matter at all.

 

I dont think people would be dissapointed if they are forced to recruit Blackwall and Vivienne, for example. You can always leave them sitting at Skyhold all day.

But if they are recruited for sure, you can have them have some impact on the main quests. For example:

 

- Maybe Blackwall can AT LEAST talk in the War Room before going to Adamant?

- Maybe Vivienne can say something about Halamshiral? Maybe just at least ask you to bring her?

- Maybe Dorian can talk about Tevinter or have any interaction whatsoever in a main quest where the villain is a Tevinter Magister of old, and its lacky a Tevinter mage too?

 

The game starts with the companions mattering at all, in the tutorial. Since you are forced to have Cassandra, Solas and Varric, you are introduced to them, get to know why Varric is there, that Solas appeared from nowhere, who Cassandra is, etc. Is it pretty important.

Solas teaches you to close Rifts FFS. He is an apostate who just magically appears, and who knows how to close the rifts, then knows how to close the big one, then tells you about the orb of the elder one, then shows you the way to skyhold, all the time he has knowledge and always uses the "I dreamt it" card when asked about it, and finally the epilogue. It is awesome. The character matters, develops.

Cassandra also has a lot of content, she is the leader, and in Act1 she is really involved, and then she makes you the Inquisitor.

Varric has much less, but at least he goes from being an unwelcome tagalong, to present you to Hawke and get some background about the villain.

 

But how about Dorian, Cole, Vivienne, Blackwall, Sera, Iron Bull ?

They are 0 developed outside of their personal quests. Which is very little, since they only have 1 quest.

 

I was specially interested in Cole, but the development of that companion is close to zero. You dont even discover he is special or a spirit, he is presented to you that way directly. The first time you talk to him, you see he helps people and likes that. Ok. And then the personal quest, which is cool and you learn about him. But that is all, you learn everything in 1 quest, who he is, what happened, and of course random decision which does not matter at all.

 

I think the problem I see is that if companions were stairs, I see them as too many stairs with too few steps.

I would like less stairs, with more steps. More depth and development on the companions.

 

So for the same development cost, this would mean one of these:

1) less companions

2) integrate them in the main story